open carry in Kentucky [Archive] - Glock Talk

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tacshooter0233
04-25-2007, 10:24
Is open carry allowed in Kentucky?

Houngan
04-25-2007, 11:20
Yes, nearly everywhere. Schools, government buildings (you can argue this one) bars, and some other places are restricted, and all businesses would have the right to ask you to leave. It's an interpretation of our constitution.

H.

Berretta9
04-25-2007, 13:49
It is but expect to questioned about it. It's been a few years ago but I saw a guy trying to make a point at 7th and Jefferson in front of the Hall of Justice. While he was legal in having a gun on his hip I watched the police strongly suggest he not do so. Why would you want to anyway ???

B+Shooter
04-25-2007, 14:36
The way it was explained to me once that open carry is legal, but that many police will get you for creating a public disturbance or inciting a riot. Just because you can beat it in court doesn't mean that you don't get your butt hauled off to jail.

:2gun: I'm legal beyotches!!:2gun:

Bren
04-26-2007, 05:30
Originally posted by B+Shooter
The way it was explained to me once that open carry is legal, but that many police will get you for creating a public disturbance or inciting a riot. Just because you can beat it in court doesn't mean that you don't get your butt hauled off to jail.

:2gun: I'm legal beyotches!!:2gun:
Having been the police and being a legal advisor for the police now, I think that's wrong. We never paid much attention to people open carrying and I have never heard a police officer give any advice other than open carry is perfectly legal in KY. Never even heard a rumor of people getting a hard time about it.

Bren
04-26-2007, 05:34
Originally posted by Houngan
Yes, nearly everywhere. Schools, government buildings (you can argue this one) bars, and some other places are restricted, and all businesses would have the right to ask you to leave. It's an interpretation of our constitution.

H.
You can carry a gun, open or concealed, in most government buildings. I work for state government in Frankfort - they tell us that we need to be careful with our guns when there are inmates working in the building, but concealed carry isn't even discouraged. If you go in the capitol, they will check your CCDW permit if you set off the metal detectors and your gun is concealed, but you can go on in with a gun. Local government seems more likely to limit firearms in buildings but state government usually does not. My wife is also a state attorney and one of her cabinet's offices recently tried to keep an employee from carrying a gun at work or in state vehicles - the lawyers told them they can't do that.

FThorn
04-26-2007, 06:20
Originally posted by Bren
You can carry a gun, open or concealed, in most government buildings. I work for state government in Frankfort - they tell us that we need to be careful with our guns when there are inmates working in the building, but concealed carry isn't even discouraged. If you go in the capitol, they will check your CCDW permit if you set off the metal detectors and your gun is concealed, but you can go on in with a gun. Local government seems more likely to limit firearms in buildings but state government usually does not. My wife is also a state attorney and one of her cabinet's offices recently tried to keep an employee from carrying a gun at work or in state vehicles - the lawyers told them they can't do that.

That's fantastic to know.

wprebeck
04-26-2007, 13:48
Originally posted by Bren
Having been the police and being a legal advisor for the police now, I think that's wrong. We never paid much attention to people open carrying and I have never heard a police officer give any advice other than open carry is perfectly legal in KY. Never even heard a rumor of people getting a hard time about it.

That's because you're not in liberal Louisville....


Urban folks tend to get scared at the sight of a gun. Police get called, and some of them have no clue as to the open carry laws (not slamming them, as I am an officer for a different agency up here; just stating a fact).

Oh, and Bren:
If you ever get stopped by a redhead with a long last name in Frankfort, don't mention the fact that you're a state employee. He REALLY enjoys ticketing those folks....:supergrin:

tacshooter0233
04-26-2007, 16:13
Thank you for the replies. A guy I work with had that question. His wife is going through a citizens police academy with Louisville Metro and the open carry question came up in class. The instructor ( an LMPD officer) stated that you could only carry in the open if you had a concealed weapon permit. I'm not sure how that conclusion was arrived at but we could find no KRS that backed his statement up.

If you carry in the open here in Louisville I firmly believe you will have a police contact and you will end up arrested.

highway
04-26-2007, 17:37
are banks off limits in KY ?

B+Shooter
04-26-2007, 17:47
As long as you don't stand in the back of the line and shout "What's the holdup?"

:thumbsup:

MythBuster
04-26-2007, 18:04
Some Ky cities have a local city ordinance against open carry. I was told that they really can't do this because it is against state law but they do it anyway.

And I would guarantee you that if you walk around in Louisville openly carrying a pistol you WILL be arrested and possibly shot.

spork
04-26-2007, 20:04
I have open carried in Louisville without a problem. Usually it was just a matter of forgeting to cover or put my jacket back on. I have even done this in Barnes and Noble and Starbucks and nobody said a word.

In addition,when I was a parole officer I wore a gun all the time while on duty, but while in plain clothes. I never had a single problem anywhere in the city.

The officer giving the training for that citizens' academy is incorrect about open carry being illegal or requiring a permit. Like wprebeck, I have met more than a few officers that simply don't know the law while I was still with my department. Thus, it is possible, that depending on where a person is at and what officer he encouters, to get the third degree if carrying openly. I seriously doubt that it would result in an actual arrest, but rather, an annoying exchange that would last until his supervisor showed up and told him to let you go.

What I have learned is that if you are acting like you know exactly what you are doing and don't look like you just got out of prison or basically just look like trouble, then most people will not really worry about you carrying openly in this state. In addition, I think it helps to have the weapon properly holstered.

michael t
04-27-2007, 23:56
I got 3 cruisers in Lex several years ago for open carry of my Randel knife. I was on my street about a block from my home Officer spotted on a drive by .He waited for back up and Then stopped me. many questions and ran me on computer. They just couldn't understand why I had a large 7" blade knife. (I had been in woods that morning and hadn't removed.) Findly let me go . Total waste of time for me and them. I moved to country less than mo later and now advoid Lexington or Louisville . To many bleeding hearts Libs in both cities. Louisville reminds me of NO before storm All show with lots of crime and killing behind the smoke screen. Lexington working hard to catch up .

TheXXFiles
04-28-2007, 13:36
I use to open carry all the time when I was at Eastern Kentucky University.

wprebeck
04-29-2007, 14:16
Originally posted by highway
are banks off limits in KY ?


Banks are fine....


Tell Ofc. Virola (who usually runs the citizen's academy) to get with Dennis Sims, who is the department legal advisor.

Maybe then, we can get this misinformation stopped....because there is NO law against open carry in Kentucky. And no, there is no ordinance against it in Louisville, mainly because that would violate the state's preemption law regarding the carrying of firearms.

Again, open carry is legal (not the smartest thing in a city, but there ya go) in Kentucky. Carrying in banks is also legal in Kentucky. For more info, check out the "carrying concealed" link at www.kentuckystatepolice.org

Oh, and the "no firearms" signs simply mean that the store doesn't want you carrying....it's not illegal to, but you must leave if asked to do so. If you don't, then it's a possible criminal trespass charge.

Razoreye
04-29-2007, 20:19
Originally posted by MythBuster
Some Ky cities have a local city ordinance against open carry. I was told that they really can't do this because it is against state law but they do it anyway.

And I would guarantee you that if you walk around in Louisville openly carrying a pistol you WILL be arrested and possibly shot. Negative. State constitution trumps it and I seriously doubt the local legislation. I suppose it is possible.

And your guarantee is dead wrong. Stop spreading stupid rumors. Thanks.

And the RKBA openly is in the KY Constitution and note how only the carrying of concealed arms can be regulated.

Kentucky Constitution
Section 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rights of life, liberty, worship, pursuit of safety and happiness, free speech, acquiring and protecting property, peaceable assembly, redress of grievances, bearing arms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned:

First: The right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties.

Second: The right of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences.

Third: The right of seeking and pursuing their safety and happiness.

Fourth: The right of freely communicating their thoughts and opinions.

Fifth: The right of acquiring and protecting property.

Sixth: The right of assembling together in a peaceable manner for their common good, and of applying to those invested with the power of government for redress of grievances or other proper purposes, by petition, address or remonstrance.

Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

Text as Ratified on: August 3, 1891, and revised September 28, 1891.
History: Not yet amended.
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/legresou/constitu/001.htm

FPD45
04-29-2007, 23:03
Originally posted by MythBuster
Some Ky cities have a local city ordinance against open carry. I was told that they really can't do this because it is against state law but they do it anyway.

And I would guarantee you that if you walk around in Louisville openly carrying a pistol you WILL be arrested and possibly shot.


...and which cities are these???? You are not gonna get arrested in Ky. for open carry. Yes some one might get scared and call the police, and some officers might come check you out, but that is in all likelyhood all that will happen.

Berretta9
04-30-2007, 06:42
I don't think you'd be shot or arrested. I've seen a guy get hasseled for open carry.

MythBuster
04-30-2007, 17:18
I really don't care what the state law or city law says if you open carry in Louisville or Lexington you WILL be hassled by the cops.

MythBuster
04-30-2007, 17:21
Originally posted by FPD45
...and which cities are these???? You are not gonna get arrested in Ky. for open carry. Yes some one might get scared and call the police, and some officers might come check you out, but that is in all likelyhood all that will happen.

A few years ago in Bowling Green Ky a local gun shop owner was arrested in his store for open carry because they had a city ordinance against it.

fryeg7
04-30-2007, 20:59
Originally posted by MythBuster
A few years ago in Bowling Green Ky a local gun shop owner was arrested in his store for open carry because they had a city ordinance against it.

that's a big, fat lawsuit . . . .

frye

SmithShooter
05-01-2007, 02:48
Ok, no more of this friend of a friend got ambushed by cops for carrying a water pistol in the open BS...

Mythbuster, I hate to bust your myths (mostly cause i love "your" show) but...I have carried, in the open, in Louisville, downtown, in plain view, on no less than 6 occasions.

The only time an officer even batted an eye at me was a time when a female officer was having a bit of trouble with a pack of homeless guys as my friend and I were on our way home from Sportshooters.

This was outside the Section 8 apartments on Muhammed Ali Blvd near the expressway onramp.

In any event, my buddy and I, who were still wearing our .357 mags in
shoulder holsters, stopped our car and strolled over to see if we could offer the officer any assistance. No guns, knives, or uber-l337 ninja throwing stars were drawn/thrown/fired. The pack of bums quickly dispersed as we approached and the officer asked me "are you undercover?"

My answer, quite simply "No maam, just an ordinary armed citizen trying to lend a hand."

With that, she smiled and shrugged as we turned to walk away.

Say what you will but the above is a 100% true story that occured 2 years ago.

Open carry IS legal in Louisville and I would wager that if you dont act like a jerk-ass you wont catch much flak for it either.

Bren
05-01-2007, 04:13
Originally posted by MythBuster
I really don't care what the state law or city law says if you open carry in Louisville or Lexington you WILL be hassled by the cops.
Could be. My experience as an officer was in eastern KY and my experience as a legal advisor was with the state police. Lexington and Louisville are somewhat different. I do currently have a case where officers are being sued for a temporary investigative stop (15 minutes or so) of a guy on the side of the road with a shotgun. Both sides agree that they wouldn't even have authority to stop him and talk to him (unless it was voluntary) based on sitting on the side of the road with the gun alone (there were other factors, including a report that he was pointing the gun at cars).

MythBuster
05-01-2007, 06:26
Originally posted by B+Shooter
Just because you can beat it in court doesn't mean that you don't get your butt hauled off to jail.



That is correct. Those of you carring openly in Louisville have just not ran into the right cop yet.

It many be legal but you can and will get your ass thrown in jail if you meet the right one.

SmithShooter
05-01-2007, 09:34
*cough* wrong one that is.

No offense to you cops out there, but if you attempt to commit felony kidnapping, that constitutes an imminent physical threat and we CCDWers ALL know what that means...

Mythbuster, please put down the tinfoil hat, and slowly back away...

Berretta9
05-01-2007, 14:18
Originally posted by SmithShooter
*cough* wrong one that is.

No offense to you cops out there, but if you attempt to commit felony kidnapping, that constitutes an imminent physical threat and we CCDWers ALL know what that means...

Mythbuster, please put down the tinfoil hat, and slowly back away...

I don't see why you are tryng to make him sound like a nut job. He is correct. I've seen it with my own two eyes, not a friend or a friend of a friend. You get the wrong cop and you for damn sure are gonna get asked what you're doing. Now you can jump up and down and quote the law and you probably won't get arrested for that but tick them off and they'll find a reason. My feeling about it is why draw the attention to yourself ? Carry it concealed and be done with it.

MythBuster
05-01-2007, 14:44
If you open carry in Louisville long enough you will see what happens when you find the right sort of cop.

Untill then you can call me a nut job or whatever you want.

Berretta9
05-01-2007, 14:52
Originally posted by SmithShooter
*cough* wrong one that is.

No offense to you cops out there, but if you attempt to commit felony kidnapping, that constitutes an imminent physical threat and we CCDWers ALL know what that means...

Mythbuster, please put down the tinfoil hat, and slowly back away...
I don't know what the kidnapping part means either. It sounds like a threat to cops.

SmithShooter
05-01-2007, 18:17
Only a Democrat could twist a kidnapping into a threat against the kidnapper :)

Berretta9
05-01-2007, 18:47
Democrat ?????? :animlol: :animlol: :animlol: :rofl: :rofl: Hell, I made my daughter move out of the house when she came home and told me she registered democrat. I'm not trying to start something with you here man, I just don't understand what your're trying to say.

KYgundoc
05-01-2007, 18:57
Never Mind. This has gone way to far.

fryeg7
05-01-2007, 19:33
i CCDW and prefer to carry that way for my own safety (not from the police). something bad happens and you're obviously armed, guess who the first one to get shot or disarmed is? there is also the risk of a gun-grab, and you lose the element of surprise. i would love to carry openly, but i don't think it's as practical as CCW unless you're camping or not in town/around lots of people.

but, if i were to carry open in louisville, i'd print copies of all the applicable law and precedent-setting court cases in my wallet. and have a good attitude with any curious LEO's. being an asshat to the cops is the quickest way to go to jail i can think of. a little diplomacy, courtesy and tact goes a very long way.

you'd have to try real hard to get arrested for something that is obviously not against the law anywhere in this state. no local government can pre-empt the state constitution and statutes. state law and legal precedent clearly demonstrate the right to open carry in kentucky.

besides, if you're relatively clean cut and respectable looking, most sheep will simply assume you are a LEO if you carry open.

frye

45gunner
05-01-2007, 20:01
I guess it really depends on the cop. If I were a cop and somthing seemed a little funny with you or you seemed to be a little gung ho about protecting somthing that was my place to protect I might question your reason for having a gun.

If you walk around with army fatigues on some unknowing cops may think your one of them and not bother you.

I guess the real question is why would you want to raise eyebrowses when you don't have to.

I would rather carry a pistol ccw knowing that I am protecting my self than flaunt the pistol to show I can and possibly run into trouble and scaring the public.

As Ray once told me yes you cannot get arrested for the possession of a gun in public but you can get arrested for creating a public disturbance by scaring people who see you carrying a gun in public.

If I were John Q Public and lived in a area that had high crime rate and a police warning out that a suspect was in the area I would not want to be caught carrying a gun on my side. I might just get hauled in for questioning But that's just me.
:)

fryeg7
05-01-2007, 20:18
Originally posted by 45gunner
you seemed to be a little gung ho about protecting somthing that was my place to protect I might question your reason for having a gun.


actually, the police have no legal obligation to protect you from harm. can you sue the police if your home is burglarized, you are mugged or your wife is murdered? no, of course you can't, they are not liable in any way legally for your anything that happens to them.

this is something lots of people need to understand, LEO's and average joes included. it's also a very bad idea to count on 'the state' for your protection and give up your means and rights to protect yourself. lots of history backs this up.

frye

SmithShooter
05-01-2007, 22:57
Hey Berretta9, sorry about the Democrat crack, sincerely.

All I am trying to say here is, our boys in blue are trained to know that the mere carrying of a firearm (not brandishing etc) is Not a crime in this state.

An LEO who attempts to take you into custody without any legal cause is just a criminal, albeit one with a badge. That having been said, nearly every officer i have ever dealt with, in Kentucky, has behaved like a reasonable professional, just trying to get through his work day.

Anyone attempting to engage in a forcible felony in my presence gets treated like a felon, badge or no badge. Otherwise, I generally try to mind my own buisiness and treat people with respect.

KyInvestigator
05-02-2007, 00:15
One thing is for sure....you cannot have a battle of wits with an unarmed individual.

Now that that is out of the way....all one has to do is to take a moment of their time to perform a few little searches...you will find the following:

Attorney General's Statement 1 (http://ag.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/74259C0A-8A53-4C8E-8D91-2D54BFE8BC1F/0/OAG9639.htm)

Another (http://ag.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/204F484B-2BAA-446D-A975-56ABBC872312/0/OAG9371.htm)

and owing to the fact that the posting source did not have a link I will provide the following excepts for reading pleasure:

=============
Number 1
=============

OAG 98-12

September 9, 1998

Subject: Concealed deadly weapons

Requested by: State Representative Bob Heleringer

Written by: Ross T. Carter

Syllabus: Employers may not prohibit duly licensed employees from keeping concealed deadly weapons in personally owned ve-hicles parked on employer’s premises

Statutes construed: KRS 237.110(13)

OAGs cited: None

Opinion of the Attorney General
We have been asked to resolve an apparent conflict or ambiguity in two sentences of KRS 237.110(13). The KRS section in question authorizes the carry-ing of concealed deadly weapons by properly licensed individuals. Subsection 13 deals with the carrying of these weapons on business premises. The two sen-tences said to be in conflict are the following:

[A] private business enterprise . . . may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding concealed deadly weapons li-censes from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the property of the employer.

An employer . . . may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying con-cealed deadly weapons in vehicles owned by the employee.
Under these provisions an employer may prohibit employees from carry-ing concealed deadly weapons on the employer’s property, but may not prohibit the employees from carrying concealed deadly weapons in the employees’ personally owned vehicles......

======================
AND SAVING THE BEST FOR LAST
======================

OAG 99-10

December 17, 1999

Subject: Authority of the City of Louisville to enact an ordinance regulating concealable firearms.

Requested by: Representative Perry B. Clark

Written by: Janet M. Graham

Syllabus: Louisville Ordinance 135.05 is invalid under KRS 82.082, because KRS 65.870 expressly prohibits this legislation.

Statutes construed: KRS 65.870, 82.082, 237.110, 237.115, and 527.020.

OAGs cited: 83-361, 92-68, 92-163, 93-1, 93-45, 96-39, 96-40, 93-71, 97-9 and 98-12.

Opinion of the Attorney General
This Office has been asked to opine on whether Louisville Ordinance 135.05 regulating concealable firearms (the “Ordinance”) conflicts with KRS 65.870. The ordinance does conflict with KRS 65.870 and is therefore invalid under the Home Rule Statute passed by the General Assembly in 1980. The Home Rule Statute, KRS 82.082, delegates to cities the broad power to govern, but it also bars cities from legislating in certain areas. Specifically, the General Assembly prohibits a city from enacting an ordinance that is expressly prohibited by statute. In this case, KRS 65.870 expressly prohibits a city from enacting legislation in the area of the ownership, possession and carrying of firearms. Nor does the General Assembly provide any exception in KRS 65.870 that would permit a city to regulate “concealable firearms.” Because the General Assembly bars municipalities from legislating in this area, the Louisville Ordinance is invalid.
>>>This WAS the ordinance in question: § 135.05 CONCEALABLE FIREARM TO BE SECURED IN LOCKED BOX. No person shall keep a concealable firearm on a premise under his/her control unless the firearm is stored in a securely locked box or container or securely locked with a trigger lock, cylinder lock, or other lock which prevents the firing of the weapon at all times other than when he/she is carrying the firearm on his/her body or within such close proximity thereto that he/she can retrieve it as easily as if he/she were carrying it on his/her body. <<<

Additional comment ending the report: Not only does the Ordinance attempt to regulate the ownership and pos-session of firearms, it may also indirectly regulate the “carrying” of them. The dictionary definition of “carry” is “To have or keep on one’s person.” Id. The Ordinance exempts from its restrictions the actual “carrying” of a firearm on a person’s body or the “constructive carrying” when a firearm can be easily re-trieved. However, the Ordinance may still be deemed to indirectly regulate the “carrying” of firearms because it uses a different standard for constructive carrying than that used in other statutes. Unlike the Ordinance, other statutes use the phraseology “on or about his person” to describe a “constructive carry-ing” situation. See KRS 237.110 (1) (authorizing a person to obtain a license to carry a concealed deadly weapon “on or about his person”); KRS 527.020 (hold-ing that a person carries a concealed deadly weapon when “he carries concealed a firearm. . . on or about his person.” ); see also Phillips v. Commonwealth, Ky., 473 S.W.2d 135, 139 (1971) (holding that a gun over the sun visor of a car could constitute carrying a concealed deadly weapon under KRS 435.020, predecessor to KRS 527.020); Houston v. Commonwealth, Ky., 975 S.W.2d 925 (1998). To the extent that the Ordinance may impermissibly regulate in the field of “carrying” firearms it also is invalid. In conclusion, because the General Assembly passed KRS 65.870 which expressly prohibits cities from legislating regarding the own-ership, possession or carrying of firearms, the Ordinance is invalid under the Home Rule Statute.

=======================

Bottom line....carry in the open if you wants to...and carry concealed if you have one (CCDW of course). We can all speculate until the cows come home on how any single LEO or private sheeple would respond to seeing someone carrying in the open. Who really cares? If you are the one carrying openly then you need to be man enough to politely handle the consequences. If you are treated inappropriately then you have recourse AFTER THE FACT.

I can attest to the fact that I am clean cut and occassionally carry openly in Louisville (downtown) when I will not out of my vehicle long enough to put on a cover garment...NEVER HASSLED and have been noticed by more than one LEO.

I will say recently that I had a certain female deputy in the courthouse entry way (scanner) yell out "he's got an empty holster and mag pouches!!" after I quietly advised her that I would be making the machine beep as I walked through. To her response I put my finger to my lips and "shushed her", stating concealed carry of an empty holster and/or mag pouches WAS NOT ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, or SOMETHING TO SCREAM ABOUT...the look on her face as I walked away was priceless!:supergrin:

wprebeck
05-02-2007, 10:18
For all of you gung ho folks who like to throw around the "forcible felony" and kidnapping charges in relation to bein g arrested for open carry (which is illegal):

Before you go opening your mouth, and spewing out thigns to obviously don't know about, read this -
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503%2D00/060.pdf

503.060 Improper use of physical force in self-protection.
Notwithstanding the provisions of KRS 503.050, the use of physical force by a defendant
upon another person is not justifiable when:
(1) The defendant is resisting an arrest by a peace officer, recognized to be acting under
color of official authority and using no more force than reasonably necessary to
effect the arrest, although the arrest is unlawful;


Even though this is covered in the CCW class (at lwast, it was in mine), apparently some of you have problems with the plain English being presented....let me help you with it:

The law, as quoted above, says in no uncertain terms, that YOU MAY NOT USE ANY TYPE OF PHYSICAL FORCE TO PREVENT AN ARREST, EVEN THOUGH THE ARREST MAY BE UNLAWFUL.

So sayeth the KRS, so goeth one to jail for violation of it (or worse, if you get into a pissing contest such as the one some have alluded to).

Know the law before talking smack...

wprebeck
05-02-2007, 10:22
For all of you gung ho folks who like to throw around the "forcible felony" and kidnapping charges in relation to bein g arrested for open carry (which is illegal):

Before you go opening your mouth, and spewing out thigns to obviously don't know about, read this -
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/503%2D00/060.pdf

503.060 Improper use of physical force in self-protection.
Notwithstanding the provisions of KRS 503.050, the use of physical force by a defendant
upon another person is not justifiable when:
(1) The defendant is resisting an arrest by a peace officer, recognized to be acting under
color of official authority and using no more force than reasonably necessary to
effect the arrest, although the arrest is unlawful;


Even though this is covered in the CCW class (at lwast, it was in mine), apparently some of you have problems with the plain English being presented....let me help you with it:

The law, as quoted above, says in no uncertain terms, that YOU MAY NOT USE ANY TYPE OF PHYSICAL FORCE TO PREVENT AN ARREST, EVEN THOUGH THE ARREST MAY BE UNLAWFUL.

So sayeth the KRS, so goeth one to jail for violation of it (or worse, if you get into a pissing contest such as the one some have alluded to).

Know the law before talking sma

tacshooter0233
05-02-2007, 14:32
This thread has gone way off point. I appreciate everyones comments.

However smithshooter concerns me with his repeated stance on treating officers who are trying to effect an arrest as felons.

Don't the courts determined if the arrest was legal?

If an officer uses force and you resist you are a criminal.

I am not a police officer. I work with them here in Louisville and understand they have a tough job. Perhaps you should take off your tinfoil hat?

SmithShooter
05-02-2007, 16:24
Check your constitution under "Lawful Resistance of Tyrrany."

This is purely a hypothetical exercise. An officer being so insane as to engage in this sort of behavior in this state is so unlikely as to be essentially a non-issue.

I was merely responding to the extreme paranoid delusion espoused by some that if you have a pistol, holstered, you will be attacked by three carloads of backup.

I never expect to be put in the situation to have to physically resist law enforcement and if I ever do (again unlikely in the extreme) it will be for a legally justifiable reason.

Additionally, resitance does not necessailly require (or even imply) shooting anyone. Calmly explaining to the officer in question exactly what he is doing wrong is enough in 90% of cases.

wprebeck
05-03-2007, 04:00
Check the state law I referenced....

If you use physical force of ANY kind to resist arrest in this state, YOU are wrong, not the officer. Don't believe me? Then try it, and let me know how it goes for you....matter of fact, PM me your real name, and I'll make sure to visit you in jail, since that's where I work. ;)

fryeg7
05-03-2007, 04:46
he's right.

so long as the officer believes he or she is acting lawfully, you cannot use force to resist them, even if they are wrong.

now, if you see an officer shoving someone or trying to shove you in their trunk, fire away :banana: .

frye

GenoTac Ind.
05-10-2007, 01:05
Originally posted by fryeg7
he's right.

so long as the officer believes he or she is acting lawfully, you cannot use force to resist them, even if they are wrong.

now, if you see an officer shoving someone or trying to shove you in their trunk, fire away :banana: .

frye

Well...fire away huh? Whether or not my partner is wrong, if someone pulls a gun on him while i'm there, better pray that you somehow hit me and take me down on the first shot, cause you'll be the dead person and i'm going to be on paid admin leave. But if some how you get a shot off to kill an officer, well, that's what you are, a cop killer...um...love to see what happens to those...oh, wprebeck and I will be baby sitting you, not the fatherly way either.

Oh, open carry? sure! I do it everyday going to work. But remember CCDW...one of the "C's" stands for CONCEALED.

fryeg7
05-10-2007, 04:58
Originally posted by g30another600r
Well...fire away huh? Whether or not my partner is wrong, if someone pulls a gun on him while i'm there, better pray that you somehow hit me and take me down on the first shot, cause you'll be the dead person and i'm going to be on paid admin leave. But if some how you get a shot off to kill an officer, well, that's what you are, a cop killer...um...love to see what happens to those...oh, wprebeck and I will be baby sitting you, not the fatherly way either.

Oh, open carry? sure! I do it everyday going to work. But remember CCDW...one of the "C's" stands for CONCEALED.

read what i typed. if your partner is shoving someone in the trunk of your car, he's obviously not acting within the law nor attempting to.

and knock that chip off your shoulder, tough guy, it doesn't suit you or anyone else . . . . :upeyes:

frye

domzilla9
05-10-2007, 05:32
Smithshooter, an unlawful arrest by a peace officers isn't necessarily tantamount to Tyranny or oppression and your comparison is absurd. An officer or group of officers arresting someone for causing a disturbance while carrying openly isn't tantamount to Waco Texas.

I have opened carried in downtown Louisville on occasion for the past nine years and I haven't experienced any problems. But then I haven't done it when my beard has been shaggy or was dressed sloppily and I am white. While open carrying and interacting with people I've made an extra effort to be extra friendly (which for me, is almost like work).

Some people will tell you that race will make a lot of difference as to whether or not you'll be hassled while carrying openly. However, several of us here have made the acquaintance of a black guy who wears a lot of loose clothing and tats who open carries daily, 24/7, He has told me several times that he has never had any problems with open carry in Louisville.

I've never tested open carry at a hospital, public school or government building. I've always suspected that those areas would present trouble, regardless of what the laws may actually be.

I think to many people give police officers to little credit. If ever questioned by police about a firearm that I am carrying openly or concealed I plan on being respectful (even if the Police officer isn't at that particular moment) and going with the flow. I can't imagine someone presuming to debate the validity or application of a law with an officer rather than relying on the due process of law to work it all out. I can't understand why an officer arresting me for violating a firearms law that I didn't actually violate would justify using lethal force against the officer. That's just freaking retarded. :crazy:

Berretta9
05-10-2007, 06:28
Originally posted by g30another600r
Well...fire away huh? Whether or not my partner is wrong, if someone pulls a gun on him while i'm there, better pray that you somehow hit me and take me down on the first shot, cause you'll be the dead person and i'm going to be on paid admin leave. But if some how you get a shot off to kill an officer, well, that's what you are, a cop killer...um...love to see what happens to those...oh, wprebeck and I will be baby sitting you, not the fatherly way either.

Oh, open carry? sure! I do it everyday going to work. But remember CCDW...one of the "C's" stands for CONCEALED.

I agree with you 100%. I used to work there myself. Seems like a million years ago. We had a cop killer as a guest at the time. I'm not sure I'd wtite in a public forum that I treated him any different but I will say you won't catch any breaks. I know fryeg7, he's not the type to shoot a cop. Not so sure about some of the others.

SmithShooter
05-10-2007, 09:13
I think it is important to note at this time that I never advocated shooting anyone, law enforcement or otherwise.

I do think it is important to treat Law enforcement as you would any other criminal, if they are OBVIOUSLY engaging in a criminal act.

Edit: For the record, I have been the victim of an unlawful arrest once, for open carry. You cannot trust the legal system to "work things out" The officer's partner simply came in to court and repeated the lies spouted by the original officer, verbatum. Because of this incident, I have one misdemeanor conviction of Carrying a CONCEALED Deadly Weapon on my permanent record, even though my pistol was in a holster, in plain view.

There is no grand conspiracy but given the opportunity cops WILL lie to cover their own butts and those of their partners.

domzilla9
05-10-2007, 09:30
If we can't trust the legal system to work things out then we've got big problems that a handgun will be of little use in solving.

fryeg7
05-10-2007, 10:06
Originally posted by Berretta9
I agree with you 100%. I used to work there myself. Seems like a million years ago. We had a cop killer as a guest at the time. I'm not sure I'd wtite in a public forum that I treated him any different but I will say you won't catch any breaks. I know fryeg7, he's not the type to shoot a cop. Not so sure about some of the others.

thanks for the vote of confidence beretta9. i can't speak for anyone else here other than myself, but i'm not nor have i ever advocated violence towards police officers. we are and were discussing the law. the law states that even if an officer is in error, you CANNOT use force to resist being taken into custody. but, if a police officer is committing a crime (i.e. not acting in offcial capacity, right or wrong), they have no more protection under the law than any other citizen. i was merely pointing out this distinction under the law. my example, an officer shoving someone in the trunk of their car, clearly illustrates a crime, kidnapping, and KRS permits the use of deadly force to stop a kidnapping. if someone can think of an example where a police officer would be putting someone in a trunk while acting in their official capacity, please tell me about it. that's a story i'd like to hear.

hell, i don't even turn right on red if there is a sign, even when no one is looking . . . . i'm also a CCDW licensee and certified instructor, so i know the law very well. insinuating i'm a potential 'cop killer' is barking up the wrong tree and very insulting. you're not even in the right forest. i have family and friends who are police officers and sheriffs, and i respect the job law enforcement does. it's not easy and the compensation isn't exactly spectacular.


g30another600r, you've got it wrong. please read what people post before you go off the deep end. i can't speak for anyone else, but your comments directed towards me were uncalled for and rude.

frye

wprebeck
05-10-2007, 10:53
Originally posted by Berretta9
I agree with you 100%. I used to work there myself. Seems like a million years ago. We had a cop killer as a guest at the time. I'm not sure I'd wtite in a public forum that I treated him any different but I will say you won't catch any breaks. I know fryeg7, he's not the type to shoot a cop. Not so sure about some of the others.


Hmmm...I've been there since 2000. Would I know you?

GenoTac Ind.
05-10-2007, 12:07
Originally posted by fryeg7

g30another600r, you've got it wrong. please read what people post before you go off the deep end. i can't speak for anyone else, but your comments directed towards me were uncalled for and rude.

frye

Well, I truly apologize...I'm sorry for being rude to you. I don't want to push this any further...cause I probably shoot with you at Glipsc...But think about what you say too, cause your comments had to seem rude to for me to reply that way. It's bad enough that law enforcement is getting a bad front, but to hear it on here...

fryeg7
05-10-2007, 15:54
Originally posted by g30another600r
Well, I truly apologize...I'm sorry for being rude to you. I don't want to push this any further...cause I probably shoot with you at Glipsc...But think about what you say too, cause your comments had to seem rude to for me to reply that way. It's bad enough that law enforcement is getting a bad front, but to hear it on here...

apology certainly accepted and no hard feelings. but please realize i was only pointing out a police officer commiting a crime (not an honest mistake in the line of duty) has no legal protection by having a badge.

trust me, i'm 'on your side'.

frye

Berretta9
05-10-2007, 21:37
Originally posted by wprebeck
Hmmm...I've been there since 2000. Would I know you?

No, I worked there for 3 years in the late 70's . I started when we were moving from the old jail that was located on Liberty. I think it's an office building now. We moved into what was at the time the state of the art " Hall of Justice" . Both of those places really rocked and rolled. I worked the 11 to 7 shift on what we called the grill or sally port. I have no idea where you enter the system from now.

wprebeck
05-11-2007, 06:41
Well, believe it or not, we've still got some folks you might know....

Charles Stallworth is still around, as is Ofc. Plenty. They've both got 30 years in, and they were around during the switch from the "old jail" (514 Liberty) to the HOJ.


Oh, and the "new jail" (built in 2000) is at 6th/Liberty. The sally port and grill entrance is just in front of the unemployment office on Cedar. If you know a guy named Gary Dodson, you may wanna stop in one day....he works the front desk on day work during the week. He's got 25 years in, and is currently planning his retirement.

Berretta9
05-11-2007, 09:12
I remember Chuck, he worked days then and ran the Honneywell. Seems like they his nick name was Starwars. That was at the time, a great job if you were a student. You could do your homework untill the police arrived with a new guest.
Back then you got to go to Richmond for 8 or 10 weeks, I can't remember which, for the acadamy. It was one hell of a party. I was glad when it was over so my liver could get back to normal.
The funny thing was the guy who was the director back then was a guy named Richard Fry. He was this real by the book, ex-marine kind of guy. He later ended up going to prison. All in all, it was a pretty fun job.