9mm wont penetrate auto glass or misc barriers?

[AmericanWay]

Almost every '9mm ammo' post has someone claiming 9mm sucks because it wont penetrate things like car doors and auto glass..

But according to a video I watched during my ccw class the 9mm routinely penetrated auto glass, car doors, even when fired into the rear of the vehicle and through the back of the front seat it still managed to hit its target. And if I'm not mistaken it faired better than the .45 during one of the barrier tests (sheet rock.) However they did not say whether the round was 115, 124, or 147gr +P or +P+.

[jon_in_wv]

Don't listen to the crap. The 9mm is plenty powerful. It WILL penetrate car doors, windshield glass, etc... very comparably to the .45 or .40. The lighter and more fragile the round, the more it will be effected by that barrier transition but some people make it sound like a 9mm would be lucky to breadk the skin if it hit you.

[WinstonSmith]

I saw a "box-o-truth" on car window and door penetration by various ammo. All 9mm does fine through glass, with some downward deflection on the windshield(so aim about six inches high when shooting through a windshield.) Door glass is no problem. 9mm FMJ did fine in metal doors but HP performance was sporadic in doors.

Here is a sampling of some of the results with fmj.

1) All .357 rounds passed through the door and 3/4” target though many broke up or were badly deformed **

2) The 9mm performed the same as the .357’s.

3) The .45/230 FMC was by far the best performer, showing little if any deflection or deformation, always penetrating the 3/4” plywood AND the front seat on the 45 degree shots.

4) Tests performed on truck tail gates mirrored the results of the doors.

5) ** There is a reinforcing bar ~ 6” wide (varies from car to car) at the mid point of the door that runs the entire length of the door. No rounds would pass through this reinforcement.

6) Doors with the windows rolled down were significantly harder to penetrate (for the first shot) presumably because of the steel / glass / steel sandwich.

[MOHAA Player]

The 9mm will not penetrate glass,doors,water,paper,humans,aliens or cardboard:tongueout:
JK it works just fine as long as you practice,and keep her loaded with quaility jhp ammo.Bullet design is very important.Good bullet designs are Rem Bonded GS,Speer GD,Winchester SXT
MOHAA

[Merkavaboy]

Originally posted by AmericanWay
Almost every '9mm ammo' post has someone claiming 9mm sucks because it wont penetrate things like car doors and auto glass..

But according to a video I watched during my ccw class the 9mm routinely penetrated auto glass, car doors, even when fired into the rear of the vehicle and through the back of the front seat it still managed to hit its target. And if I'm not mistaken it faired better than the .45 during one of the barrier tests (sheet rock.) However they did not say whether the round was 115, 124, or 147gr +P or +P+.

To this, all I can say is: "It just depends".

It just depends upon what context these people say that the 9mm "won't" penetrate. It just depends upon what circumstances a person faces. It just depends upon the type of bullet is used.

If someone is wanting to get extreme penetration on a vehicle, and that's their only concern, then certain types of FMJ ammo on the market will perform better than others. Mild steel jacketed bullets like the Geco 124FMJ, WOLF's new Military Classic 124FMJ, the older Sellier & Bellot cupro-nickel clad 115FMJ and the hot Hirtenberger L7A1 124FMJ will all penetrate better than the standard gilding metal FMJ loads from companies like CCI/Speer, Federal, Winchester, Remington etc. (mild steel FMJs will deform less and slow down less than the softer gilding metal FMJs).

If a LEO is carrying JHP ammo and needs to shoot into a vehicle to disable a BG, than JHP bullets with bonded jackets (Bonded Golden Sabers, Speer GDHP's etc.) will do a better job at getting thru glass and sheet steel better than non-bonded JHPs (which almost always shed their jackets when going thru glass, thus reducing its wight and tending to slow down faster than jacket-intact bonded bullets).

I dare say that even the bullet's velocity, weight, mass, frontal surface area that comes into contact with a barrier etc. also play a role on just how well a bullet will defeat and penetrate hard barriers.

It's my opinion that civilian licensed gun carriers should not get too concerned about having to defeat hard barriers like windshield glass and car doors because the vast majority of civilian SD shootings take place face to face and at bad breath distances. Bullets that are designed to hold together while passing thru hard barriers shouldn't be a concerning factor when determining what type of ammo to use since shooting thru barriers to get to a BG is extremely rare for a civilian gun carrier. For LEO's who face BG's seated behind the steering wheels of vehicles, bonded bullets should be almost manditory and should be used over standard JHP designs. And for those in the war zones or areas where the military and/or police face heavily armed criminals in 3rd world countries (and even drug smugglers in S.American countries) then a good steel jacketed FMJ load should be the norm.

But like I said before, just it depends...

[michael t]

'9mm ammo' post has someone claiming 9mm sucks because it wont penetrate things like car doors and auto glass..


Guess I give the Kids a 9mm as a bounce back off a tree from a BB gun took out my car window a few years back. So a BB is better performer than a 9mm.. Oh was a adult present, he allowed the shot. He also paid to have the window replaced and I made sure bill was a little more for my time and trouble.

[Wordsmith]

In my experience (some of which consists of shooting up newly abandoned cars), 9mm does extremely well as a barrier penetrator on both doors and windows. The fact that the Secret Service uses 357 SIG (essentially a really hot 9mm) also goes to show that the size of the bullet isn't really a problem.

Some of our experiements have been pretty eye-opening. For instance, never use your car door for cover (as you see a lot of cops doing on TV). Any of the major handgun calibers will punch right through. Some of our rounds (9mm and .40 S&W) even penetrated the opposite door.

[grenadier]

Any reasonably powered centerfire handgun caliber is going to be able to penetrate sheet metal, whether it's FMJ or JHP. The only way it won't go through a car door is if it hits one of the support beams.

[CaliMoon2005- L]

I'll bet a 9mm API round will have NO problem!! Anyone want to bet with me? 10,000 dollars bet:thumbsup:

[Decguns]

It's kind of weird trivia that the poor performance of the FBI's M1911's during the 1920's on car bodies contributed to the development of the 357 Magnum...

It seems the Army convinced the FBI the 45 ACP was the answer to their quest for a more powerful handgun. At first, the FBI was quite pleased as the 45 delivered quite a bit more punch than their eclectic collection of 32 & 38 caliber handguns. However, with the rise of criminals using automobiles in their get-aways, it soon became quite apparent the 45 wasn't up to the task of punching through the sheet steel car bodies. As such, Elmer Keith & gang devised perhaps one of the best handgun rounds ever... Funny that the 357 Magnum is pretty much on par with souped up versions of the 9MM...

[MOHAA Player]

Originally posted by Decguns
Funny that the 357 Magnum is pretty much on par with souped up versions of the 9MM... Did you say 357 sig:supergrin:

[Rugby]

Why does it even matter? Are you an LEO? The way I see it, as a civilian CCW'r, if your shooting at people through barriers such as cars and walls, you're gonna be in a heap of legal trouble.

[Wordsmith]

Except for the fact that it happened in California, I doubt Jesse James would have been in a "heap of legal trouble" if he'd shot at the driver trying to kill him yesterday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=451106&in_page_id=1773

Sandra Bullock sees fan try to kill her husband

Sandra Bullock watched in horror as an obsessed woman fan tried to kill her husband outside their home.

The Hollywood star and Jesse James were with James's tenyearold son when Marcia Valentine lay down in their driveway near Los Angeles.

James, 38 - who hosts Discovery Channel show Monster Garage - asked her to leave but she ignored him before getting into her silver Mercedes and repeatedly trying to mow him down.

Police in Orange County said Bullock, 42, and James's son Jesse Junior looked on in shock as Valentine "attempted three or four times to run Jesse James over" with her car.

Spokesman Jim Amormino added: "Valentine tried to kill him." He confirmed that Valentine has stalked Bullock in the past but did not know whether there were any restraining orders.

James was not hit during the alleged incident in Seal Beach, south of LA.

Sheriffs were called to the scene, but Valentine, from nearby Huntington Beach, drove off before they arrived.

She was arrested the following day after being spotted near Bullock's home and charged with assault with a deadly weapon. She was freed on £12,500 bail after a court date was set for May 22.

A spokesman for Bullock and James - who have been married for nearly two years - later said they were "fine".

Ironically, in her next film, the romantic comedy All About Steve, Bullock will play a crossword fanatic who stalks a TV cameraman.

Her character becomes convinced-that the newsman is the love of her life and criss-crosses the country following him to news hotspots.

Three years ago, Bullock was forced to obtain a restraining order against another stalker, Thomas Weldon.

He is now being treated in a psychiatric unit.

Bullock, who starred in Miss Congeniality and Crash, is one of the richest women in entertainment with a net worth of £40million.

[kimo]

In the VT killings, one prof was killed when the gunman fired through a door.....


I guess the bullet didn't know it was not supposed to penetrate the door.

[noway]

{ It just depends upon what context these people say that the 9mm "won't" penetrate. It just depends upon what circumstances a person faces. It just depends upon the type of bullet is used.
}

best advice given imo :thumbsup:

[happyguy]

Originally posted by AmericanWay
Almost every '9mm ammo' post has someone claiming 9mm sucks because it wont penetrate things like car doors and auto glass..

But according to a video I watched during my ccw class the 9mm routinely penetrated auto glass, car doors, even when fired into the rear of the vehicle and through the back of the front seat it still managed to hit its target. And if I'm not mistaken it faired better than the .45 during one of the barrier tests (sheet rock.) However they did not say whether the round was 115, 124, or 147gr +P or +P+.

Maybe things are different in the rest of the country but the Indiana State Police have been using 9mm for years with some modicum of success.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[mastrbloata]

Originally posted by Decguns
It's kind of weird trivia that the poor performance of the FBI's M1911's during the 1920's on car bodies contributed to the development of the 357 Magnum...

It seems the Army convinced the FBI the 45 ACP was the answer to their quest for a more powerful handgun. At first, the FBI was quite pleased as the 45 delivered quite a bit more punch than their eclectic collection of 32 & 38 caliber handguns. However, with the rise of criminals using automobiles in their get-aways, it soon became quite apparent the 45 wasn't up to the task of punching through the sheet steel car bodies. As such, Elmer Keith & gang devised perhaps one of the best handgun rounds ever... Funny that the 357 Magnum is pretty much on par with souped up versions of the 9MM... This is indeed curious....I thought the FIB adopted the .38 Super in the Elliot Ness era in the 1911 platform to penetrate early body armor that the .45acp and .38 special would not. For car doors, I cannot speak. If memory serves, the .357 mag wasn't developed until the very early 1950's? I'm no expert by any means or a historian. Was Elmer Keith of the 1950's?

[Merkavaboy]

During the 1920's (the original "gangsta" era), the Colt .38ACP/Super automatics were starting to become popular because they had more "punch" on steel car bodies than the .45ACP. And as I recall, this was also the time when ammo makers (Winchester, Rem-UMC) started producing pointed .45ACP "AP" rounds to try and make up for the lack of penetration with the .45 hardball. Rem-UMC produced a 173-gr. pointed bullet and Winchester stuck with the standard 230-gr. weight for their loads. Those are at least 2 different loads that I know of.

But then again, when someone had a Thompson with a 50-round drum magazine, WATCH OUT! :shocked:

[mastrbloata]

I had read that Ness also had their Thompsons converted to 38. Super for the penetration. Car doors I'd imagine.

[bunky]

Originally posted by Merkavaboy
During the 1920's (the original "gangsta" era), the Colt .38ACP/Super automatics were starting to become popular because they had more "punch" on steel car bodies than the .45ACP. And as I recall, this was also the time when ammo makers (Winchester, Rem-UMC) started producing pointed .45ACP "AP" rounds to try and make up for the lack of penetration with the .45 hardball. Rem-UMC produced a 173-gr. pointed bullet and Winchester stuck with the standard 230-gr. weight for their loads. Those are at least 2 different loads that I know of.

But then again, when someone had a Thompson with a 50-round drum magazine, WATCH OUT! :shocked:

Frank Hamer - who chased Bonnie and Clyde - carried a Colt .38 Super Automatic. Essentially, the same ballistics as modern .357SIG (pretty much).

[WinstonSmith]

Originally posted by Wordsmith
Some of our experiements have been pretty eye-opening. For instance, never use your car door for cover (as you see a lot of cops doing on TV). Any of the major handgun calibers will punch right through.
I agree that the rounds will penetrate the door, but that doesn't mean the door can't be used as cover in a pinch. Studies have shown that most attackers won't think to shoot at a door with someone hiding behind it. They shoot the part of the target they can see. I saw a store video of a robbery once where two shooters were separated by a rack of dresses. Neither thought to shoot through the dresses. Of course, you might have the misfortune to come up against a smarter badguy.:supergrin:

[Kalmah]

Originally posted by mastrbloata
If memory serves, the .357 mag wasn't developed until the very early 1950's? I'm no expert by any means or a historian. Was Elmer Keith of the 1950's? The .357 mag was developed in the 1930's, the .44 mag was developed in the 1950's. Elmer Keith had a hand in both calibers.

[Lewsid 13]

Originally posted by Rugby
Why does it even matter? Are you an LEO? The way I see it, as a civilian CCW'r, if your shooting at people through barriers such as cars and walls, you're gonna be in a heap of legal trouble. +1 on that. :thumbsup:

[ibontop]

I have put many different 9mm through abandoned cars at the range. In and out. Passenger side in, and out driver side. No problem at all penetration, HP and even WWB.

As far as the glass, it all shattered away after a few rounds, so I didnt get to see which shot deflected, etc. But there were no windows left intact after a few shots, so that barrier was negated easily.

I figure if it had energy left after penetrating door enough to exit out other side, then it has enough to put the hurt on a target inside as well.

It is a real eye opener to shoot real vehicles, its nothing like TV shows, thats for sure. Whoever said that comment about not hididng behind doors in a gunfight is absolutely correct. They can provide concealment, but not cover.

You shoulda seen what the 50 did to those cars!

I bet some soldiers deployed or recently returned can vouch for effectiveness of 9mm FMJ through cars.

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Rugby
Why does it even matter? Are you an LEO? The way I see it, as a civilian CCW'r, if your shooting at people through barriers such as cars and walls, you're gonna be in a heap of legal trouble.

Not so.

Intent
Opportunity
Capability

Barriers do not matter except that if your adversary uses them to his advantage and you do not find a way to defeat them, he may win.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[itsnitro]

Originally posted by AmericanWay
Almost every '9mm ammo' post has someone claiming 9mm sucks because it wont penetrate things like car doors and auto glass..

But according to a video I watched during my ccw class the 9mm routinely penetrated auto glass, car doors, even when fired into the rear of the vehicle and through the back of the front seat it still managed to hit its target. And if I'm not mistaken it faired better than the .45 during one of the barrier tests (sheet rock.) However they did not say whether the round was 115, 124, or 147gr +P or +P+.


If that we're the case.. LEO's wouldn't be allow to carry them on duty..... as it looks to be stated above me.. depends on the bullet I guess....

[mastrbloata]

Originally posted by happyguy
Not so.

Intent
Opportunity
Capability

Barriers do not matter except that if your adversary uses them to his advantage and you do not find a way to defeat them, he may win.

Regards,
Happyguy :) Finally, a wisp of fresh thought with all this dight of deceit of faulty doctrine.

[Rugby]

Originally posted by mastrbloata
Finally, a wisp of fresh thought with all this dight of deceit of faulty doctrine.

It's your life. If you think you can get that by a jury in a civil suit, be my guest. Some people fail to realize that the rules are different for LE as they are civilians or just don't want to face the facts.

[ibontop]

not to stray too far off topic, but here is one scenario. You are boxed in in traffic, a carjacker gets the jump on you, despite your typical awareness to your surroundings. You have very little time to stop the situation at hand, he has knife drawn. You are able to present your firearm and all you have time to do is get a shot off through the door before that knife is in at your throat. Do you just give up? Or do you fire and hope your 9mm goes through the door and into troll with enough force to stop him. I know I would fire.

There are times when it would be nice to know if your ammo is effective enough or not. I see nothing wrong with shooting at a donated junker car at a range to test this theory.

[Glolt20-91]

Barrier penetration is more dependent upon bullet construction, sectional density and velocity.

First picture is a recovered 124gr Gold +P+ fired from a G17 through this 0.09" steel barrier and 1 one gallon jug of water. The bumps in the metal were caused by .40 S&W Rem high velocity JHPs that didn't penetrate at 20-25yds.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mmP124grGoldDotrecoveredbarrier1ju.jpg

The next two pictures are from a G-17 shooting a 147gr Winchester JHP notched at 1150fps +; a round you won't find at the corner drug store. The first 2 one gallon jugs exploded upon cantact after the steel barrier; this performance was better than a 10mm 180gr GS. Notice the large exit hole from #4 bottle in the first pic. :)

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/G17147grWin2-06-2007013.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/G17147grWin2-06-2007014.jpg

Here's the 10mm 180gr GS at 1270fps for comparison.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/chrono01510mm180gr.jpg

In other barrier testing, the 180gr GS has performed at a much better level; as did a 124gr GS fired at .38 Super velocities and expanded to nearly 3/4"

Not very scientific, but repeatable. FWIW, the 124gr Gold Dot was also a poor performer at .38 Super velocities; if you reload 9mm +p+ velocities, you may want to try the 125gr Gold Dot .38 Super/.357SIG constructed bullet.

Bob

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Rugby
It's your life. If you think you can get that by a jury in a civil suit, be my guest. Some people fail to realize that the rules are different for LE as they are civilians or just don't want to face the facts.

Your number one goal should be to survive.

If you don't survive the encounter a civil suit probably won't bother you much.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[Menehune]

If I am sitting in traffic, and someone comes up at me to attack me, I am shooting, through window and all, civil matters be damned. Or am I supposed to say "Oh crap, this guy may shoot me, but if I return fire, I may end up in court over this..." Besides, I drive a Saturn, I'm screwed if they shoot at the doors...:supergrin:


FWIW, I have fired 9mm at a lot of cars and glass and such. Most modern car doors give rather easy, letting rounds pass through. Older cars, I have fired at rusted out hulks of metal dating from the 50's and earlier, and all I get is a big dent.

Glass, tempered stuff, all shatters instantly, no debate there. all the safety glass I have shot, bullets go right through that also, especially from standing, pointing slightly down at the glass. I have seen a rifle shot, fired from prone, hit a windshield and bounce off, due to the shallow angle.

[AmericanWay]

Originally posted by Rugby
Why does it even matter? Are you an LEO? The way I see it, as a civilian CCW'r, if your shooting at people through barriers such as cars and walls, you're gonna be in a heap of legal trouble.

No i'm not a leo.. but i'm intrested in ballistics & firearms anyway. And as long as the constitution and 2nd amendment still stand I'll continue to be. :tongueout:

[Rugby]

Originally posted by AmericanWay
No i'm not a leo.. but i'm intrested in ballistics & firearms anyway. And as long as the constitution and 2nd amendment still stand I'll continue to be. :tongueout:

Fair enough but remember the Constitution is a double-edged sword.

[AZ_Quailhunter]

Next time you go out into the boonies to your favorite shooting spot.....I dare ya to shoot your 9mm at your windshield....then tell us that it won't penetrate glass.....have fun driving home with the bugs in your teeth!!! Hehehehehehehe :banana:

[MOHAA Player]

Originally posted by Rugby
Why does it even matter? Are you an LEO? The way I see it, as a civilian CCW'r, if your shooting at people through barriers such as cars and walls, you're gonna be in a heap of legal trouble. My main objective is to survive the ordeal first and worry about the rest later.What if someone is in your house shooting at you from behind a wall,door,ect.If I know he's the only one in the house besides me my 357 Sig or 10mm is going to earn it's keep that night.There's nothing worst then taking a bullet to the chest or head,so do what you need to do to win and worry about the rest later.Also if you do have a wife/kids and get taken out by the BG that leaves your family dead,I worry about my wife/kids and I care what happens to them after I'm gone also so I will do what I need to do to win a gun fight with a BG.
MOHAA

[Merkavaboy]

Originally posted by ibontop
not to stray too far off topic, but here is one scenario. You are boxed in in traffic, a carjacker gets the jump on you, despite your typical awareness to your surroundings. You have very little time to stop the situation at hand, he has knife drawn. You are able to present your firearm and all you have time to do is get a shot off through the door before that knife is in at your throat. Do you just give up? Or do you fire and hope your 9mm goes through the door and into troll with enough force to stop him. I know I would fire.

There are times when it would be nice to know if your ammo is effective enough or not. I see nothing wrong with shooting at a donated junker car at a range to test this theory.

In your scenario, there's no reason to try and shoot through the door in the first place.

If an attacker is so close to your vehicle that he can reach in through the open window and place a knife to your neck (AND you have time enough to draw your gun), then you've got plenty of the attacker's upper body, shoulders, neck & head to shoot at as the attacker is bracketed in your driver's side window when he tries to get at you through the open window. More than likely, the attacker will be ripping your car door open to drag you out of the car, at which time you'll have his whole body to index upon, and trying to shoot through your car door from the inside would be a moot point.

[AZ_Quailhunter]

Next time you go out into the boonies to your favorite shooting spot.....I dare ya to shoot your 9mm at your windshield....then tell us that it won't penetrate glass.....have fun driving home with the bugs in your teeth!!! Hehehehehehehe :banana:

[Rugby]

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
My main objective is to survive the ordeal first and worry about the rest later.What if someone is in your house shooting at you from behind a wall,door,ect.If I know he's the only one in the house besides me my 357 Sig or 10mm is going to earn it's keep that night.There's nothing worst then taking a bullet to the chest or head,so do what you need to do to win and worry about the rest later.Also if you do have a wife/kids and get taken out by the BG that leaves your family dead,I worry about my wife/kids and I care what happens to them after I'm gone also so I will do what I need to do to win a gun fight with a BG.
MOHAA

I'm not arguing everyone's right to self-defense and we can write "what if's" until the cows come home. I'm not saying that I wouldn't shoot through barriers in certain situations either.

I'm merely trying to expand on the thought. Some civilians think they can do what the police can do, and that is not the case. We all know if we are involved in a shooting the incident will be put under a microscope. If the victim's family decides to sue in civil court (and they will) their attorney will surely do his/her best to make it seem like you were in the wrong. You may be vindicated, you may not. I don't like it any more than you.

You may live in a state with the Castle Doctrine, you may not. I do, but rest assured that God forbid I'm involved in a shooting, I hope I don't have to fire though a barrier and it's a nice clean frontal COM shot. That would save me a lot of time and money. If it's not a clean, COM, well...