Kahr paranoia

[Romadoc]

I now have 3 Kahrs..2 K9s and an MK9. The point is, I'm becoming a little worried about their capacity. Granted the 7 or 8 rounds should suffice, but lately I feel nervous about that. I now sometimes carry my Glock 26 with a 15 round model 19 mag. I prefer the feel of the Kahr, but somehow the extra rounds is an offset. What do others feel?

[nuparadigm]

I'm unashamedly and admittedly 'old school'. For easily half of my career I carried an M19 Smith. There was one reload carried on our belts. Extensive training in speed and in shot placement was one of the reasons that this was possible. In the scope of my awareness (which was fairly broad) there was only one shooting incident which required more than 4 rounds from the weapon of the good guy. In that one affair, it required five rounds.

One of my adjunct firearms instructors at the Academy was a very famous - and now deceased - Agent. His list of gunfights in which he participated was a long one. In only one of them, he said, did someone have to go back to the station for more ammunition - and that was for rifle ammunition.

Stated succinctly: IMO, legal civilian defensive use of firearms will seldom (if ever) require more rounds than any Kahr can carry. Each day, I arm myself with a Kahr P45 with a full magazine and one in the spout. I don't believe that I am underarmed - even in Southwest Houston.

[LabTech]

I carry a S&W 360PD daily and feel perfectly fine with the five rounds in it and a speed strip with five more on my belt.

[BackDraft]

I was trained from the old school also. For 10 years I crried a S&W Model 58 and 57 41 magnum wheel guns and a Model 60 38 Special as a back up. As far as carring reloads we had to have a 12 round loop carrier and speed loaders were optional.(this was in the 80s). As far as semi autos went 2 magazines on a carrier that was it. Only time I carried anything that had more than 7 rounds was when the military went to the M9 and M11 and the spray and pray was taught then with them. I carry atleast 1 reload all the time but I have never felt under guned with only 5 or 6 or 7 rounds.SHOT PLACEMENT is what I learned and if you are just not hitting your target then you have no business carrying.That is just my opinion and I will catch alot of flack over that statement. So what I train LEOs Civilians, Military for close to 20 years and you just don't pass the courses I teach till you can hit at speed every time. I also think if you need more rounds then you better be working your way to a long gun. Thats just my opinion.

[Romadoc]

I initiated the thread by using the term paranoia. When I first received my New York City concealed permit more than 45 years ago, my main concern was an individual attacker or, at worst, a group of two. Then, I felt fine choosing a Colt Agent with six rounds as opposed to the S&W Chief Special with 5 rounds. Now, with gangs the norm, perhaps 6 rounds is no longer sufficient.

[nuparadigm]

Perception nearly always trumps reality. The fact is that you believe that a potential threat may be more numerous. This belief is what makes you desire a higher "round count" at your disposal. There's nothing wrong with doing that - especially if one isn't good at shot placement. You may be very good at shot placement and have received excellent training, but from what you write, I'm guessing that for 45 years you've been a legally-armed civilian.

Given a defender's accurate shot placement, experience reveals a reality: after being either shot or shot at, the targets & their friends tend to either (a) hunker way down, or (b) run. Such is an observable reality of human behavior. Even the gang members that folks are worried about today are not mentally conditioned (as are LEOs) to press the fight once the fireworks have begun.

A real gunfight is nothing like the movies portray them to be; it's not much like most IDPA scenarios either. But the bottom line is this: if you believe that you need a higher round count, then you probably will really need one. Those of us who have seen the coyote smile know that we probably won't.

[JohnJak]

If you think it's going to take that many rounds to defend yourself I think you should practice more or just leave the guns in the safe.:)

[FreeMe]

Here's something more likely for you to be paranoid about...

If you carry all 15 rounds in one magazine, and don't carry a spare mag, you may still be out of luck. Most common failures in auto pistols are magazine failures. You're more likely to need a spare mag (to replace the one that failed or got damaged) than the extra rounds in one mag. Carry a spare mag or two for your Kahr and be happy.

If carrying your Glock makes you happier because you have more confidence in it though - then carry it. You may shoot it better, or have more confidence in it's reliability - but magazine capacity (for a non-LEO) shouldn't be a decision-maker.

[SonnyD]

I'm in line with everyone else here. I don't put myself in situations where I'm likely to run into 6-7 or 8 attackers. Of course it can always happen, and some of us don't have any choice other to live in a area where that senario could happen.
But I still agree about the accuracy of your shots. I would just about guarantee you though that even if you have 10 attackers, and only 7 rounds to shoot them with, that if your placement shots are good, and you drop 2 or 3 of them with 2 or 3 shots, the others are probably not going to stick around.
While some of these thugs may be pretty good shots, most of them are "spray and pray", as the crime scene usually shows. Most of the scenes have 20 or 30 casings left behind sometimes with no hits, and other times with just one hit. If you wound or take out a bad guy with every shot, your not going to have an audience for long!
I seldom carry anything with more then 7 or 8 rounds. I usually carry a 1911 or a S&W 39, or S&W 1076, or the Kahr K9. The largest capacity handgun I have is a Beretta Vertec 96 at 11 rounds. I never feel outgunned in either round capactiy or caliber, whether I'm carrying 9MM, 10MM or 45ACP...I know my placement will be true. I won't shoot till I have a Target....and a good target at that. As they say, a good hit with a 22 Rimfire, is better then a miss with a 44MAG.
I definitely wouldn't be against carrying an extra mag though, for reasons stated in posts above.
Regards Sonny

[SDforce]

I used to carry a G27 with a G23 mag as my reload. Since switching to a Kahr MK40, I have the 5 rd in the gun and have now carry 2 reloads (6 rd mags).

[e417]

For most of the year I carry a G23 w/a 15rd spare mag. Come spring and summer, I switch to my K9 w/a spare mag and feel just fine. If I am overly worried for some reason, I will stick my Kel Tec P32 w/a extra mag in my pocket.

[Tough Guy Levi]

Howdy All:

Practice, practice and more practice, shot placement and alwasys carry a spare magazine in magazine holder for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. If you haven't seen nor tried a Milt Sparks magazine holder, click on the link (www.miltsparks.com) I've inserted in this post. I made a mistake by ordering a PCH-M for my NAA Guardian .32 auto, used it for one week and quickly ordered one for my PM 9. If I am not mistaken, it was at least 3+ months before it arrived and used a Desantis Mag-Packer during my long wait!

There's no comparison between the Sparks/Desantis magazine holders. Wearing the Sparks, you forget you have it in your weak-side pant pocket. It fits your thigh since the back of the holder is curved and can be adjusted to individual requirements. You are constantly reminded you have a spare magazine holder using the Desantis. It is bulky compared to the Sparks and sometimes a round ejects from the magazine when carrying. Yes, the Sparks is leather, more expensive and one has to put up with the wait time but the PCH-M is worth every bit of the delay!!

Tough Guy Levi
NRA Pistol/Per. Def. Instructor

[ecmills]

Uh... Why don't you carry a spare magazine?

Heck, when I'm wearing anything thicket than a T-shirt that's untucked, I'll carry two. But I ALWAYS carry one spare.

The great thing about Kahrs is that the INCREDIBLY SMALL magazines make up for their limited capacity. :)

[Enzo]

It's not Hollywood. You've got roughly 3 seconds to get er' done.

I'm not trying to be rude but I have to snicker a little when people think they are going to get in a fire fight.

[SonnyD]

Originally posted by Enzo
It's not Hollywood. You've got roughly 3 seconds to get er' done.

I'm not trying to be rude but I have to snicker a little when people think they are going to get in a fire fight.

Your Exactly right. 9 times out of 10 you won't come up against more then 1 person. I obviously forgot to mention that in my earlier post.

Regards Sonny

[Enzo]

Originally posted by SonnyD
Your Exactly right. 9 times out of 10 you won't come up against more then 1 person. I obviously forgot to mention that in my earlier post.

Regards Sonny

You explained yourself well though.

I probably came across a little harsh. It was late.

IMO the Kahr is a self-defense weapon and NOT at combat weapon. For me there is a huge difference. A situation where there are 6-8 assailants with firearms...that's combat! You'll need more than high cap mags then, you'll need some specialized training - just my opinion.

Unless your back is up against the wall somewhere, if you have time to send rounds down the street, then you also have time to get moving and get the hell out of there. That's just me though. I'd never stick around and have a gun fight with 8 people unless I had no other choice.

[SonnyD]

I don't think you came off as being too harsh. My sentiments and feelings are pretty much right in line with yours.
Regards Sonny

[NailShooter]

Romadoc
Senior Member

...... Now, with gangs the norm, perhaps 6 rounds is no longer sufficient.


Romadoc, I don't think you're being paranoid at all.

It also might depend upon how you train (either by taking classes or informally at your range). I find that for the past several years I have been practicing double and sometimes triple taps on close-in self defense drills using torso w/ head targets. If you practice this way enough, you might very well default to multiple shots per assailant. It might be wise to "carry how you practice" in this case. A small gun like a micro Kahr can be emptied (accurately with practice, close in) on multiple targets in less than 3 seconds. I know, I have one. Most places I go, I do feel comfortable with it, and it is so easy to carry.

That being said, I just bought a G23 to upgrade both caliber and capacity. Time will tell how often it gets carried. Why should you arbitrarily limit yourself--just because you might not be LEO--if you can carry/conceal a larger gun? No one ever complained of having too much ammo left after a gun fight. A larger gun like a G23 might also be easier to get ahold of on a draw from concealment. Regards,

Nail

[SonnyD]

Originally posted by NailShooter
Romadoc, I don't think you're being paranoid at all.

It also might depend upon how you train (either by taking classes or informally at your range). I find that for the past several years I have been practicing double and sometimes triple taps on close-in self defense drills using torso w/ head targets. If you practice this way enough, you might very well default to multiple shots per assailant. It might be wise to "carry how you practice" in this case. A small gun like a micro Kahr can be emptied (accurately with practice, close in) on multiple targets in less than 3 seconds. I know, I have one. Most places I go, I do feel comfortable with it, and it is so easy to carry.

That being said, I just bought a G23 to upgrade both caliber and capacity. Time will tell how often it gets carried. Why should you arbitrarily limit yourself--just because you might not be LEO--if you can carry/conceal a larger gun? No one ever complained of having too much ammo left after a gun fight. A larger gun like a G23 might also be easier to get ahold of on a draw from concealment. Regards,

Nail

I don't like anything larger then neccessary when your wearing it all day, standing and sitting, drivings, bending. I also don't want anything bigger then it has to be when I'm dressed nice and going out for the evening. I carried a 23 for a while, and a 19 and a 26, but they all feel huge now after the Kahr. My Kahr in a tuckable holster isn't noticable on me unless you happen to bump into me. I've had friends that have given me a questioning look and asked, "Your not carrying tonight?" I just smile.
Regards Sonny

[FreeMe]

Originally posted by Tough Guy Levi
...If you haven't seen nor tried a Milt Sparks magazine holder, click on the link (www.miltsparks.com) I've inserted in this post....Yes, the Sparks is leather, more expensive and one has to put up with the wait time but the PCH-M is worth every bit of the delay!!

+1 on the PCH-M! I always carry a spare mag - not because I might need that many rounds, but because I like the idea of having a spare mag in case of the unlikely event that my other mag fails. I almost always carry it in my off-hand pocket in the PCH-M. BTW - before I got my PCH-M, I tried just dropping the mag into the pocket. Two or three times of finding a loose round in my pocket convinced me to get that pouch. I didn't have to wait so long....a benefit of Sparks being just down the road from here, I guess!:thumbsup:

[NailShooter]

SonnyD
Senior Member

.....I carried a 23 for a while, and a 19 and a 26, but they all feel huge now after the Kahr.....

Got to agree with Sonny on this. Kahr thinness really spoils you. Glock really needs to build a single stack 9mm, there is a big CCW market out there now. Regards,

Nail

[SonnyD]

Originally posted by NailShooter
Got to agree with Sonny on this. Kahr thinness really spoils you. Glock really needs to build a single stack 9mm, there is a big CCW market out there now. Regards,

Nail

:thumbsup:

Regards Sonny

[airrascal]

if you need more carry a spare mag (should anyway) or two (T9 mags hold 8 rounds). Should more be needed, one probably wasn't paying enough attention to begin with and even a G17 with a 33-round mag probably wouldn't help much.

[The Cigarman]

Originally posted by NailShooter
Got to agree with Sonny on this. Kahr thinness really spoils you. Glock really needs to build a single stack 9mm, there is a big CCW market out there now. Regards,

Nail

Unfortunately you will never see a Glock single-stack because the current small Glocks only make the BATF regulations at the minimum point value; a single stack would reduce the weight and dimensions and bring it below the standard point value for import.

These Kahr's are the best you can get unless Glock opens a factory in the USA.

For what it is worth I agree that a small and easily concealed pistol with an extra mag is the way to go. I carry a 9 to get the extra round or two in the mag and to be able to increase my chances of accurate followup shots.

I don't know about any of you, but while I'm an excellent pistol shot, if there are more than two armed guys nothing short of a shotgun or auto rifle will likely stop them. A couple of well-placed shots in a group will have a good chance of deterring a group without firearms. The fact is that it is the bad gfuys who have guns in places like NY, NJ and other places where CCW is nearly impossible for a law-abiding citizen and so they will likely be armed.

[The Cigarman]

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