Please school me on the .357Sig round [Archive]

KansasGlock39

04-29-2007, 01:16

I am looking at maybe getting a G23 and buying a 9mm barrell for it and a buddy of mine started trying to convince me to get a .357Sig barrell and be done with it or to just buy a 357 Glock and that I would most likely never want a 9 or 40 barrell once I shot the .357Sig round.

When I was a cop with a particular KS dept, they tested the .357Sig Glock and said, "NO WAY," due to the over penetration. That was about 7 or so years ago though and I am guessing that with the JHP's out there for this particular caliber, that some of that OVER penetration is stopped.

1. What are the GOOD sides to this round?

2. Does it have the "knock down" power or "Punch" when hitting the intended target of the .40?

3. What are the BAD sides to shooting a round of this nature?

4. I know the .357 barrell will fit into the .40 Glock but are all the barrells between 9, .40 and .357 interchangable no matter which model Glock you own as long as its in the 9, .40 or .357 family???

Thanks for any info. on this guys.

Aaron

failsafe

04-29-2007, 04:38

I own both a 23 and a 32..I carry the 32 pretty much all the time...
Good round wiht plenty of "pop"...I'll leave the penetration discussion to others...23 and 32 barrels are interchangable, as are the magazines....You would have to convert in order to go with a 9mm..
Only downside to the 357 Sig round is the cost of ammo...

filthy infidel

04-29-2007, 06:04

The primary 'penetration' issue is the tactical barrier penetration advantage that the .357 SIG has. This is why the Delaware HP was the first of many LEAs to adopt it. It has superior anticar ballistics. The cartridge was designed to copy the 'external ballistics' of the .357 Magnum. Out of a four inch barrel the .355" 125 grain bullet is launched at between 1300 and 1400 FPS. The round shoots to point of aim out to fifty yards or so.
Due to the high slide velocity and the fact that feeding a .355" cartridge nose into a .400" hole is makes a .357 Sig gun very,very reliable.
It does have a lot of 'punch', and in my opinion it is a step up from the mellow recoil of a .40. I carry a Glock 33- a rather small gun, but the .357 SIG offers a lot of power out of such a short barrel. It is fun to shoot, not punishing.
It is expensive, but I don't get to shoot as much as I'd like anyway.

ibedanny

04-29-2007, 06:13

357sig is fun to shoot.

oscarwar

04-29-2007, 06:16

Originally posted by KansasGlock39
I am looking at maybe getting a G23 and buying a 9mm barrell for it and a buddy of mine started trying to convince me to get a .357Sig barrell and be done with it or to just buy a 357 Glock and that I would most likely never want a 9 or 40 barrell once I shot the .357Sig round.

When I was a cop with a particular KS dept, they tested the .357Sig Glock and said, "NO WAY," due to the over penetration. That was about 7 or so years ago though and I am guessing that with the JHP's out there for this particular caliber, that some of that OVER penetration is stopped.

1. What are the GOOD sides to this round?

2. Does it have the "knock down" power or "Punch" when hitting the intended target of the .40?

3. What are the BAD sides to shooting a round of this nature?

4. I know the .357 barrell will fit into the .40 Glock but are all the barrells between 9, .40 and .357 interchangable no matter which model Glock you own as long as its in the 9, .40 or .357 family???

Thanks for any info. on this guys.

Aaron The .357Sig rd. (125 gr.) was orig. developed with the intent of duplicating the performance of a .357mag rd. (also 125 gr.) coming out of a 4 in. revolver. This has largly been achieved. The Texas Dept. Of Public Safety (highway patrol) was the first major police dept. in the country to adopt the .357Sig rd. and has since been joined by quite a few local, state and federal depts. The most common load used by most of these various agencies is the Gold Dot .357Sig rd. The true bullet diameter of the .357Sig rd. is .355, vs .357 for the revolver rd., but does not seem to affect performance. This would answer your ques. regarding the 'good side' of this round. As far as ques. # 2, the obvious short answer is yes. Bad sides?- higher cost than most .40 rds, LOUD muzzle blast; espec. noticeable in indoor ranges, and increased recoil. I own a G32c and it has quite a roar. With that gun I also have, and use, both the G23 .40 barrel and also the LWD 40-9 barrel. With the LWD 40-9, the barrel thickness has been increased to allow correct alignment with the existing extractor & ejector found on the G32 (and also the G23), thus allowing the use of 9mm ammo with complete reliability. I have fired hundreds of various 9mm factory rds. through this stainless st. barrel without a single hiccup.(9mm ammo also has the added benefit of cheaper cost, espec. the Win. white box 'hundred pack'- 115gr.fmj boxes found at WallyWorld. Hard to beat for practice.) :thumbsup: Hope this has been helpful- o

NYC Drew

04-29-2007, 07:02

Originally posted by filthy infidel
... feeding a .355" cartridge nose into a .400" hole is makes a .357 Sig gun very,very reliable...

I don't get this. Where is the .400" hole?

'Drew

Dean

04-29-2007, 07:09

The 357 Sig is a great pistol cartridge for those who need it.

A forty cal GDHP is plenty good enough for most defensive handgun tactical applications. so sayeth "The Bureau."

If you might need to shoot through auto glass or steel, the 357 is the best street round I know. I used to carry it, but now I'm perfectly happy with my G23. Having said that I'm looking to buy another G31. Also, the Sig/Sauer 2029 ( is that the right model #? ) is a great gun too. I had a SigPro 2340 I loved and I'm looking forward to buying the updated version of it as a sweet shooting gun to use as a range gun / collectors piece.

My primary defense guns say "G-L-O-C-K" and "Crimson Trace" on them. Much lighter weight, higher capacity, and ONE trigger pull, not two.

If you haven't got a Crimson Trace laser sight on your primary handgun and might have to use your weapon at night, get one.:drillsgt:

jbremount

04-29-2007, 07:13

The .357sig is just a faster velocity 9mm that will cost you more to shoot. You will also have less selection in ammo with the 357sig when you go to the store to purchase.

If you reload, the range pick up brass for the .357sig is much much less. The 9mm and .40 brass is everywhere.

I would first look at the price/variety/and avaibility of the ammo for the 9mm, the .40S&W, the 10mm and the .357sig caliber guns at Walmarts. That said, the Glock 23 in .40 is a good police/self defense caliber and you can buy a 9mm conversion barrel. Lone wolf sells excellent barrels for less than $100. I think they are $89. You can re-coup/save the money you paid for the LW barrel by shooting 9mm ammo with the conversion barrel.

suckersrus

04-29-2007, 10:13

NavArch

04-29-2007, 11:08

I use d to have a neighbor that is a member of the Secret Service. They are issued the .357Sig. From my conversations with him, although it was adopted for its ability to penetrate vehicles, he said that the 9mm bullet tends to lose a lot of its oomph (that's the technical term) at ranges less than those for which the .40 S&W is still useful.

So, I chose the .40 and the G23. If you need to kill cars and trucks, you might decide on the .357Sig.

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 11:11

The 357 Sig is more accurate and has better barrier penetration than the 40sw and 9mm.It fits into a smaller gun than the 45 acp and holds more ammo with better barrier penetration.
Good 357 Sig article (http://www.gunweek.com/2002/feature0210.html)

MontanaBighorn

04-29-2007, 12:36

Originally posted by NavArch
he said that the 9mm bullet tends to lose a lot of its oomph (that's the technical term) at ranges less than those for which the .40 S&W is still useful.your neighbor is misinformed, i disagree completely. the two arent comparable at "long" (for a handgun, anyway) ranges and the gap widens the longer the distance (with the 357 sig being superior). i know its just marketing, but even glock references the 357 sig as "long range".

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4930/g31bil1.jpg

im not suggesting that the .40 is "bad"....but to suggest that its superior to the .357 sig at longer ranges is just...well...wrong.

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 13:29

Originally posted by MontanaBighorn
your neighbor is misinformed, i disagree completely. the two arent comparable at "long" (for a handgun, anyway) ranges and the gap widens the longer the distance (with the 357 sig being superior). i know its just marketing, but even glock references the 357 sig as "long range".

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/4930/g31bil1.jpg

im not suggesting that the .40 is "bad"....but to suggest that its superior to the .357 sig at longer ranges is just...well...wrong. :agree: :goodpost:

PennaOhio

04-29-2007, 14:17

Has anyone noticed any difference in the 'felt recoil' when firing a .357Sig out of a polymer frame(Glock) vs. a traditional 'metal' pistol?

I'm not trying to stir sludge up, I'm just curious as I too really like Glocks and have been looking at .357 Sig. The one thing putting be off is the recoil issue. A big plus in my book is the ability to swap barrels and shoot .40 from the same gun.

DanaT

04-29-2007, 15:02

Well, if 357Sig is really really good, why not go with a 9x25 Dillon? Wouldnn't that be even better.

Or, if you want penetration through cars, why not a 7.62 Takarov?

-Dana

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 15:05

Originally posted by DanaT
Well, if 357Sig is really really good, why not go with a 9x25 Dillon? Wouldnn't that be even better.

Or, if you want penetration through cars, why not a 7.62 Takarov?

-Dana Nothing wrong with the 9x25 Dillion at all,great round.I'm thinking of playing around with the Dillion in my G20:thumbsup:
MOHAA

Total_Recoil

04-29-2007, 16:19

Originally posted by failsafe
23 and 32 barrels are interchangable

I thought the 23 barrel would be too thick to fit through the hole in a 32 slide?

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 16:24

Originally posted by Total_Recoil
I thought the 23 barrel would be too thick to fit through the hole in a 32 slide? They are both interchangable,Glock made them that way:thumbsup:
MOHAA

jbremount

04-29-2007, 16:36

If you just want a cheap, fun, gun/cartridge combination for practice and plinking -- get a Ruger mark III 22LR. It is cheaper than all the others listed above. The ammo is almost free in comparsion.

If you carry a gun for defense stop worrying about price of guns and price of ammo.

Not necessarly true, I have .22 pistols and they are not the same as shooting a larger centerfire cartidge. You need a larger caliber and target ammo to shoot plates or reactive targets. I think a new shooter needs a gun he can shoot a lot without breaking the bank. The caliber wars are senseless, in most self defense situations, the calibers 9mm - 10 mm will do the job with good shot placement. That said, most of us can do the math and see that a 9mm will allow a new shooter to shoot more for the same money.

Go here (linky (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/3403855c_bec.htm)) to get an ideal of the prices of ammo to feed the gun.

D4RWlN

04-29-2007, 17:42

Originally posted by jbremount
If you just want a cheap, fun, gun/cartridge combination for practice and plinking -- get a Ruger mark III 22LR. It is cheaper than all the others listed above. The ammo is almost free in comparsion.

If you carry a gun for defense stop worrying about price of guns and price of ammo.

Not necessarly true, I have .22 pistols and they are not the same as shooting a larger centerfire cartidge. You need a larger caliber and target ammo to shoot plates or reactive targets. I think a new shooter needs a gun he can shoot a lot without breaking the bank. The caliber wars are senseless, in most self defense situations, the calibers 9mm - 10 mm will do the job with good shot placement. That said, most of us can do the math and see that a 9mm will allow a new shooter to shoot more for the same money.

Go here (linky (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/3403855c_bec.htm)) to get an ideal of the prices of ammo to feed the gun.

You are still trying to justify protection with cost of ammo. I admit that is an expensive round but there are ways to cope. I have a g31 with a g22 barrel, kkm 9mm conversion barrel, and AA 22lr conversion(also reload now). So in aspect to your statement that shooting a centerfire round is not the same as shooting 22lr is true but not an issue. I also agree that "The caliber wars are senseless, in most self defense situations, the calibers 9mm - 10 mm will do the job with GOOD SHOT PLACEMENT." but this is not a perfect world and where we all hope in a SHTF that we put the round exactly where it needs to go, we may end up hitting them in the shoulder or other non vital area. I would rather get hit with a 9mm than a 357sig,40,45, or any other larger caliber. I see no problem with the caliber as long as the carrier is comfortable but I do not think ammo cost should be a huge concern.

k2ue

04-29-2007, 18:49

Originally posted by NYC Drew
I don't get this. Where is the .400" hole?

'Drew

The 357 Sig is pretty much a 40S&W Cased necked to 0.355, so they don't need to leave the cartridge base unsupported to make a ramp to guide the bullet into the chamber -- the small 0.355 bullet easily enters the 40S&W base-diameter chamber and the bottle-neck then helps the larger portion of the case enter, like a funnel.

I switched from a G30 to a G32, and found the muzzle lift and apparent recoil is less with the G32. Also the 357 Sig is much cleaner -- the powder residue after 500 rounds is less than the 45 ACP after 50. Part of it is that less gas blows back due to the bottleneck and tight chamber base. But there is also less powder residue on the outside -- and I selected the cleanest 45 ammo I could find, but any 357 Sig seems to be cleaner.

suckersrus

04-29-2007, 19:48

Originally posted by jbremount
...get a Ruger mark III 22LR...

Not necessarly true, I have .22 pistols and they are not the same as shooting a larger centerfire cartidge...

Some people feel shooting the lowly 22 is not good practice because it does not produce the same level of recoil and muzzle blast as a "real" gun. And it is simply not macho.

Other people feel shooting the mighty 22 is better practice since the shooter experiences much less recoil and muzzle blast so he can concentrate on good shooting techniques. Inexpensive ammo not only allows several times more practice it also permits several times the fun.

Show me a shooter who is a dead shot with a 22 and I will show you a shooter who is a dead shot with other calibers as well.

KansasGlock39

04-29-2007, 19:58

O.K., So unless I missed it on here somewhere between the arguing over the 22cal. round ( which I wasnt asking about :chatter: ) and people mentioning other rounds that I have never really ever considered shooting..................

Is it correct that I can buy a:

G22,23 or 27 (.40s&w) and put a stock Glock or Wolf .357 barrel in it? What about a Glock stock 9mm or Wolf 9mm barrel?

or a

G31,32 or 33 (.357 Sig) and put a stock Glock or Wolf .40 barrel in it? What about a Glock stock 9mm or Wolf 9mm barrel?

or a

G17,19 or 26 (9mm) and put a stock Glock or Wolf.357 or .40 barrel in it??

I am looking for interchangability here, something where I can buy one gun and make it into 3 guns with just the switch of the barrel and maybe mags.

With any of these models, if a 9mm barrel will not just, "drop in," then what would I need to do???

Thanks again guys, I know newbies like me can be a major pain in the arse but the knowledge I gain from you guys is greatly appreciated.

MontanaBighorn

04-29-2007, 20:02

doesnt the g31/32/33 frame have additional structural steel support that the 22/23/27 doesnt have?

Aeroscoper

04-29-2007, 20:14

Originally posted by KansasGlock39
I am looking at maybe getting a G23 and buying a 9mm barrell for it and a buddy of mine started trying to convince me to get a .357Sig barrell and be done with it or to just buy a 357 Glock and that I would most likely never want a 9 or 40 barrell once I shot the .357Sig round.

When I was a cop with a particular KS dept, they tested the .357Sig Glock and said, "NO WAY," due to the over penetration. That was about 7 or so years ago though and I am guessing that with the JHP's out there for this particular caliber, that some of that OVER penetration is stopped.

1. What are the GOOD sides to this round?

2. Does it have the "knock down" power or "Punch" when hitting the intended target of the .40?

3. What are the BAD sides to shooting a round of this nature?

4. I know the .357 barrell will fit into the .40 Glock but are all the barrells between 9, .40 and .357 interchangable no matter which model Glock you own as long as its in the 9, .40 or .357 family???

Thanks for any info. on this guys.

Aaron

1. Pretty much covered by previous posters. One thing I"ll add though is that the quickness of the slide lets me get back on target faster than either my .40 or my .45, though probably very slightly slower than my 9mm.

2. "Knock down power" is a very touchy subject around here. It's the whole energy argument. Many believe that as long as it penetrates a certain depth in gel, all else is superfluous, many others, myself included, believe that extra fps and energy may contribute to better terminal effects, even if it's hard to quantify in a lab in gel. Though comparing to another high energy round such as a .40, the difference probably isn't significant.

3. Expensive, expensive, and oh yeah, expensive. That and the 9mm lovers that will hate you. I have a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel and a AA .22 conversion kit for the former, and a "whatever you say" for the latter.

4. As others have mentioned, .40 and 357 are inter-changeable, need a conversion barrel and different mags for the 9mm. I went as far as getting the extracter/ejector/plunger swap for 9mm shooting, now it shoots like a G17. Functioned flawlessly with just the conversion barrel in my G31, but ejection was a bit sporadic.

Overall the only real drawback in the price of ammo, but it's a valid concern and you should factor that into your consideration. :wavey:

AgentM79

04-29-2007, 20:34

It's a 9mm with a .40S&W gas tank!

DanaT

04-29-2007, 20:36

Not to throw too much of a wrench in the monkey works, but if you use something along the lines of Ranger SXT 127gr +p+ 9mm you get almost the same performance from a 9mm. It could be argued better as the SXT bullet is well repsected for results. This ammo will be between 1200ft/sec and 1300ft/sec (I have seen over 1300ft/sec in my G34). Plus you get two additional rounds of 9mm over 357 Auto (note that glock does not make a 357 Sig pistol..they are labeled 357 Auto).

-Dana

AJE

04-29-2007, 20:41

I recently shot a G31. It wasn't full power loads as far as I know, it was FMJ blasting ammo, but I was surprised that there wasn't more recoil. It didn't feel as much as my G22 actually, just slightly less.

However there was a big flash and it is LOUD.

walrus108

04-29-2007, 20:56

bunky

04-29-2007, 21:05

The good:

As a LEO, I like the .357 SIG's ability to punch through car bodies. I've seen .40's put dents in car doors and .45's literally bounce off. Not good in my line of work. Yes, it's a "hot" 9mm, but hotter than +P+ 9mm and, when teamed with a good bonded bullet such as the GD, it's excellent.

Every pistol I've shot chambered in .357SIG has been very accurate, and the flat trajectory makes longer shots easy to make.

The bad:

Some people dislike the extra penetration - especially homeowners using the round for self/family defense indoors.

.357SIG ammo is more expensive and can be harder to find - depending on where you live. I like to buy in bulk online.

Muzzle blast/recoil is increased, but it can be overcome with range time. .357SIG hits with authority - try it, you'll like it.

*** To me, the biggest drawback is ammo cost and availability. Some say that .357SIG pistols won't last as long as their 9mm counterpart. This may very well be true, but I ain't buying it to sleep with. It it wears out, I'll dish out another $425.00 and buy another.

D4RWlN

04-29-2007, 21:17

Originally posted by DanaT
Not to throw too much of a wrench in the monkey works, but if you use something along the lines of Ranger SXT 127gr +p+ 9mm you get almost the same performance from a 9mm. It could be argued better as the SXT bullet is well repsected for results. This ammo will be between 1200ft/sec and 1300ft/sec (I have seen over 1300ft/sec in my G34). Plus you get two additional rounds of 9mm over 357 Auto (note that glock does not make a 357 Sig pistol..they are labeled 357 Auto).

-Dana

Not 100% certain on this but doesn't crappy WWB sig have higher velocities than that out of a shorter barrel? I'm pretty sure it does but I have not personally chronoed it. I know some of my reloads are veeeery stout. The last ones I shot shook my hair and left glock design imprints in my hands from having to hold on to my G33. I wish I would have chronoed those esp out of the g31. Those were fun but I must shamefully admit that they were to hot for ME to hit bulleye with consistly. A person would be no prob tho.

Bottom line. The hottest 9mm isn't going to match the hottest 357 sig. just like the hottest 357s isn't going to match the hottest 10mm....I need a g20 now...

KansasGlock39

04-29-2007, 21:25

Originally posted by walrus108
Any of the 22/31, 23/32, or 27/33 share the same frame. they can all use either wolf of Glock factory barrels to convert to either 40 or 357 so you can easily have both. The 40 mags will work well for the 357 sig but the 357 sig mag followers could cause some problems loading 40 in them. You can change the followers to 40 to solve this. Any of those models in 357 or 40 can shoot 9mm but only with a conversion barrel. You cannot use a factory 9mm Glock barrel in them. You also cannot convert a 9mm Glock to either 40 or 357sig. Best and easiest would be to get a 40 and buy a 357sig barrel and also a 9mm conversion barrel with a few 9mm mags. You would then have a gun that can shoot three calibers very well.

THANK YOU!!!!!! This is EXACTLY what I was needing to help me make my descision. I appreciate everyones input here.

Thank guys.

Aaron

DanaT

04-29-2007, 21:29

Yes, you are correct. I have never chrono'ed 357Sig ammo. However, the factory claims about 1350ft/sec from a 125gr. The hottest 9mm will shoot somehwere in the 1250ft/sec range (of coarse out of the longer G34 I have seen over 1300ft/sec). But, if you use the hot 9mm, then you can also shoot the cheap ammo. You can't do that with 357Sig.

One problem with SXT ammo is availability. It is scarce for "civilians".

Now that you have said 10mm....well if you don't the recoil from 357Sig, stay away from 10mm. I have used 10mm for IDPA. My reduced power IDPA load is a 135gr bullet at about 1280ft/sec. It works very well. Again, I must say that is my reduced power competition load. I have some 135gr loads at 1671 ft/sec (average) with no pressure problems. Once I got into the mid 1700ft/sec range my 10mm brass was smiling at me. Backed off from there.

I shoot more 9mm than anything though. Realistically, its cheaper to shoot. I can also get range brass very easily.

I would like a 357Sig, but not because it is better than anything else I have, just "in addition" to other stuff. Can one ever have too many calibers?

-Dana

jonathon

04-29-2007, 22:02

I just got my first .357 SIG on Friday..

I got to say, the biggest thing that stands out to me just from shooting it is how "flat" it is. Doesn't require hardly any adjustment to make a good hit on a 12" target at 100 yards. Can't say that about my .45.

MontanaBighorn

04-30-2007, 08:34

Originally posted by walrus108
Any of the 22/31, 23/32, or 27/33 share the same frame.i realize they share the same size frame and the two are interchangable, but i remember reading that the 357 sig frames had additional structural support. im attempting to verify that now. anyone "in the know" know for sure?

NYC Drew

04-30-2007, 09:02

walrus108

04-30-2007, 11:04

Originally posted by MontanaBighorn
i realize they share the same size frame and the two are interchangable, but i remember reading that the 357 sig frames had additional structural support. im attempting to verify that now. anyone "in the know" know for sure?

All Glocks from the 3rd gen and newer have this reinforcement. I believe the 2.5 gen also has it. I have a 2nd gen and a 3rd gen frame. In many ways the 2nd appears to be more stout. The 2nd appears to have more poly mass in the frame while the 3rd is thinner in areas, but has steel reinforcements molded inside. There is debate on whether this reinforcement was ever necessary. Better safe than sorry I guess. I have shot many thousands of very hot loads through my 12 year old G22 and the frame is perfectly fine.

jbremount

04-30-2007, 17:05

Quote:"You are still trying to justify protection with cost of ammo. I admit that is an expensive round but there are ways to cope"

Check out the price of .357sig practice ammo per 50!(linky (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/practice_bff.htm)) Is this what a new civilian shooter needs? It all comes down to shot placement. You need to practice/shoot your weapon until you get used to the recoil and are able to get it back on target quickly for the next accurately placed shot. Hot stepping 9mm ball ammo is used in Europe.

IMO, If one needs to penetrate cars/etc, you may need to have a rifle handy. If you have that much distance and time, use a rifle.

I shoot a .40S&W. I have also seen .40 work through cars and get the job done.

k2ue

04-30-2007, 17:26

Originally posted by jbremount
You need to practice/shoot your weapon until you get used to the recoil and are able to get it back on target quickly for the next accurately placed shot.

Kudos to Insights Training for making it clear to me that you don't really need to force it back down -- just prep the trigger and be ready when it returns to the target -- all by itself. And when moving between targets just apply a little side torque while it is recoiling -- and it will come back where you want it, left or right of the last shot. Invest in good training.

anubisgodofgods

05-01-2007, 16:40

I too am a velocity whore. I use to have all .40cal guns till I bought a SIG 2340PRO in .357sig when that round first came out. I upgraded from the SIG PRO to a G31C and that still was not fast enough. Now I have a G35 with a Jarvis .357sig barrel and would have got a longer barrel if I did not think it was ugly sticking way out of the slide. I also have a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel for it that gets a lot of use. The factory .40cal barrel is a dust collector.

From my many hours of ballistic research I can say with confidence that the .40cal is a very good round but the .357sig is a little bit better in every category except price. For me price isn't even on the priority list when it comes to self defense. Here is a pic for all to enjoy. Note that the Jarvis barrel is in the G35, it only comes out at the range when I run out of .357sig ammo then goes back in before I leave the range loaded with Speer Gold Dot ammo.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c79/boze2043/G35002.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c79/boze2043/G35003.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c79/boze2043/G35004.jpg

MOHAA Player

05-01-2007, 17:27

IMO the 357 Sig offers the most performance in a service caliber for the size of the platform it can be chambered in.In a G17 size pistol you have a bullet that hits harder then the 9mm/40cal/45acp and penetrates more then all 3 with hi capacity,and a very flat trajectory.I own and owned many pistols and calibers but my G31 I bought last week has become my favorite of all time.I carry her now and leave the Sig P220 and G19 at home.

I just ordered a 9mm Storm Lake conversion barrel for her for some cheap range time.
357 Sig article (http://www.gunweek.com/2002/feature0210.html)
MOHAA

bogey3737

05-01-2007, 18:12

MOHAA,

Have you clocked any loads out of that 31 yet?

MOHAA Player

05-01-2007, 18:52

Originally posted by bogey3737
MOHAA,

Have you clocked any loads out of that 31 yet? No I don't have a chrono.I would be interested if anyone out there who has a chrono and a G31 would share some Velocity numbers from some different 125gr jhp loads like Speer/Rem GS/Hornady/Winchester.
MOHAA

10milg29

05-01-2007, 19:48

DT 115 grain out of a 4.5" barrel - 1612fps

Wow...

KansasGlock39

05-02-2007, 01:20

I found a website tonight, Ammoman.com, or something like that and the .357 Sig ammo was cheaper for 1000 rounds than the .45 ACP and the same price .40s&w. So, I would have to say that at this moment, price is not a contributing factor.

Now, I just gotta sell my XD40 tactical so I can get the Glock I am wanting.

walrus108

05-02-2007, 10:15

Originally posted by KansasGlock39
I found a website tonight, Ammoman.com, or something like that and the .357 Sig ammo was cheaper for 1000 rounds than the .45 ACP and the same price .40s&w. So, I would have to say that at this moment, price is not a contributing factor.

Now, I just gotta sell my XD40 tactical so I can get the Glock I am wanting.

You can get 1000 rounds of winchester 40s&w for under $180 at almost any Walmart. For $219 you can get 1000 Russian Wolf 40 from ammoman.com. The cheapest ammoman has for 1000 rounds 357sig is $249. That is $70 more than walmart WWB 40 and you can run into walmart on a whim and buy it 100 rounds at a time and STILL pay less. You'd have to wait for ammoman. Most people would consider that a very important contributing factor.

NYC Drew

05-02-2007, 11:29

http://www.precisioncartridge.com/Lead-Free-Ammunition-Commercial-Wholesale-Price-List.pdf

http://www.precisioncartridge.com

jonathon

05-04-2007, 20:07

Another thing.. .357 SIG is getting down to about the same price as .45 ACP if you order online :)

I've also noticed that firing 200 rounds of WWB will not make it a big cruddy mess like in other calibers. Not sure why but there is very little debris inside the gun after a range session.

Ammoscam is selling Speer 125gr TMJ for $149 shipped, good blasting ammo.

MOHAA Player

05-04-2007, 20:35

Originally posted by jonathon
Another thing.. .357 SIG is getting down to about the same price as .45 ACP if you order online :)

I've also noticed that firing 200 rounds of WWB will not make it a big cruddy mess like in other calibers. Not sure why but there is very little debris inside the gun after a range session.

Ammoscam is selling Speer 125gr TMJ for $149 shipped, good blasting ammo. I thought I was going crazy but it seems to me also that the G31(357 Sig)doesn't get as dirty as my other weapons.
MOHAA

JMBare

05-05-2007, 01:55

Originally posted by KansasGlock39
O.K., So unless I missed it on here somewhere between the arguing over the 22cal. round ( which I wasnt asking about :chatter: ) and people mentioning other rounds that I have never really ever considered shooting..................

Is it correct that I can buy a:

G22,23 or 27 (.40s&w) and put a stock Glock or Wolf .357 barrel in it? What about a Glock stock 9mm or Wolf 9mm barrel?

or a

G31,32 or 33 (.357 Sig) and put a stock Glock or Wolf .40 barrel in it? What about a Glock stock 9mm or Wolf 9mm barrel?

or a

G17,19 or 26 (9mm) and put a stock Glock or Wolf.357 or .40 barrel in it??

I am looking for interchangability here, something where I can buy one gun and make it into 3 guns with just the switch of the barrel and maybe mags.

With any of these models, if a 9mm barrel will not just, "drop in," then what would I need to do???

Thanks again guys, I know newbies like me can be a major pain in the arse but the knowledge I gain from you guys is greatly appreciated.

Many years ago, my first pistol was a Sig P229, chambered for .357 sig. At the time, it was the ONLY pistol in this caliber, since it was the first. I selected this pistol, after reading SOOOOOOOO many different articles comparing bullett balistics and caliber, etc., where it came out on top, in every single aspect by every single reviewer.

Since the .40 and .357 are interchangable, my third pistol was a G23. I purchased it, with the idea of getting two guns for the price of 1, like you are considering above. I soon purchased a stock G32 barrel and started shooting .357 through the gun, but over time, I realized that I was not putting the .40 barrel back in, because the .357 performed much better, in terms of accuracy and reliability. .357 ammo is priced damn close to .40 these days, so there wasn't really any value issue with returning to the .40 barrel either.

Since I liked the .357 so much in the glock, my next gun was a G31C, glock had just released the OEM ported guns and I had to have one! Well, I found the sweet spot!!! I absolutely loved the way this G31C perfomed. It was that point that I realized that the .40 was sort of worthless.. Sort of an intermediate distraction from greatness, and one more caliber I had to stock for. LOL Well, since then, I have purchased a G32C for carry, to replace my G23, because I hated my now .357 carry gun being marked with .40. My next gun was a G33 to backup the G32, it is nice to be able to carry just one magazine that fits both guns.

I have gone off track a bit, but the point of the story is, if you want a dual use gun, pick up a G32 and get the accesory .40 barrel for it, rather than the verse, because it won't be long before you completely abandon the .40 altogether and it will drive you nuts that your pistol and Mags say .40 on them, although it is now a permanent .357.

My 2cents...

See ya,
-JMB

JMBare

05-05-2007, 01:58

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
I thought I was going crazy but it seems to me also that the G31(357 Sig)doesn't get as dirty as my other weapons.
MOHAA

Not your imagination.. My .357's stay really clean, even with the ports. My night sights even stay clean after hundreds of rounds.

-JMB

Danny Reid

05-05-2007, 08:00

Originally posted by JMBare
Not your imagination.. My .357's stay really clean, even with the ports. My night sights even stay clean after hundreds of rounds.

-JMB I wonder why that is? FWIW, that's not the first time I've heard of that with 357 Sigs...

Maybe the powder burns more efficiently with that case?

Thoughts?

Alaskapopo

05-05-2007, 08:49

Originally posted by filthy infidel
The primary 'penetration' issue is the tactical barrier penetration advantage that the .357 SIG has. This is why the Delaware HP was the first of many LEAs to adopt it. It has superior anticar ballistics. .

With respect I have yet to see a test showing his to be true. From what I have seen the barrier penetration capablities of the 357 sig are about the same as the 9mm. If you have some tests and pictures to show otherwise I am all for seeing them.
Pat

Alaskapopo

05-05-2007, 08:51

Originally posted by Danny Reid
I wonder why that is? FWIW, that's not the first time I've heard of that with 357 Sigs...

Maybe the powder burns more efficiently with that case?

Thoughts?

It does burn very efficiently that much I will give this little round. If you look at the standard deviation in velocity and extreem spread with the 357 sig say compared to the 40 sw the 357 sig is much less. For example with a lot of 357 sig loads I saw extreem spreads of only 20 feet per second. While in the 40 sw I say as much as 100 fps.
Pat

10milg29

05-05-2007, 09:41

Alaskapopo=355SIG????

MOHAA Player

05-05-2007, 11:44

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
With respect I have yet to see a test showing his to be true. From what I have seen the barrier penetration capablities of the 357 sig are about the same as the 9mm. If you have some tests and pictures to show otherwise I am all for seeing them.
Pat How did the 357 Sig's barrier penetration change from your statement that it does have more barrier penetration then the 9mm?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 357 sig is more accurate and has better barrier penetration than the 40sw. ITs has more stopping power and more barrier penetration than the 9mm. It fits in a smaller gun with less recoil as opposed to the 10mm (which is almost dead by the way). It fits into a smaller gun than the 45 acp and holds more ammo with better barrier penetration.
PAT

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132639

Alaskapopo

05-05-2007, 11:59

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
How did the 357 Sig's barrier penetration change from your statement that it does have more barrier penetration then the 9mm?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 357 sig is more accurate and has better barrier penetration than the 40sw. ITs has more stopping power and more barrier penetration than the 9mm. It fits in a smaller gun with less recoil as opposed to the 10mm (which is almost dead by the way). It fits into a smaller gun than the 45 acp and holds more ammo with better barrier penetration.
PAT

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132639

Check the date on the post. We have been over this before. I have changed my views over the years. Unlike you who changes your gun and caliber on a weekly basis. You have no room what so every to critique anyone for changing there mind. Do I need to pull out the PM's where you said I was right about the 9mm and how you agree with me about all the service rounds being roughly the same. The difference is my views have changed over the years after research and personal experience has led me to believe something else. I am not sure what drives you to change as fast as you do.

Pat

MOHAA Player

05-05-2007, 12:08

Snowman92D

05-05-2007, 15:36

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
...I just asked what research at that time lead you to the conclusion that the 357 Sig out performed the 9mm, but now you say it doesn't.

:drink:

Alaskapopo

05-05-2007, 20:04

Start your search here.
http://www.tacticalforums.com/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000368.html

Here is an post on that thread from Dr. Roberts a known expert in the field of wound ballistics.

"VLITT,

I believe you will find your answer here:
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html

"The statement that the .357Sig, “has the ability to defeat hard targets better it can expand more with an equal bullet type.”, is not supported by either our research or that of the FBI FTU Ballistic Research Facility in Quantico, VA. When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the .357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads."

In this same thread, SSA Boone from the FBI FTU describes how LE agencies can get the data from their testing.

Bottom line is that the 357 Sig is a slightly faster 0.355"/9 mm bullet; it does not have the mass of the .40 S&W or .45 ACP."

Pat

Snowman92D

05-05-2007, 20:37

Told ya... :drink:

This is some pretty old info, Pat. It was posted back before they kicked DiFabio off that board for failing to always faithfully parrot the Kool-Aid Kingdom party line.

I noticed in that link that the .357 Sig round that DiFabio tested did a pretty good job of punching through the tailgate of a big Chevy Suburban. It punched from the back clear to the front of the vehicle, going through all three seats. Sounds like classic performance to me. The 9mm 124-grain load and 180-grain .40 load didn't fare so well.

Why do you hate the .357 Sig so badly? I gather you think the Federal Air Marshals, U.S. Secret Service, Texas DPS and other large agencies that use the .357 Sig are in error because they report having good luck with the cartridge? Why do you blindly cling to Kool-Aid dogma when real people are using the load to excellent effect?

Alaskapopo

05-05-2007, 20:42

Originally posted by Snowman92D
Told ya... :drink:

Calling something Koolaid does not make it false. If you have something to dis credit the work of these experts lets hear it.
Pat

Snowman92D

05-05-2007, 20:53

When their "scientific" research does not square with observed reality, they "discredit" themselves, Pat. Why do you think the IWBA went belly-up...? Science has to agree with reality, or real end-users won't buy into the "science". Do you really think real, professional, sharp-end-of-the-stick end-users are that dumb?

Enjoy... :drink:

SPDSNYPR

05-05-2007, 22:40

My department issues the Glock 31. I also carry a 32c daily. I have only shot once with the 31 to kill a pit bull that attacked me - round worked as advertised (Speer 125 gr Gold Dot).

Pic of the expanded round next to a .45 gold dot (for size comparison - I know they are different rounds). Bullet was found on the ground right under where i shot the dog (it was jumping up at me, and the bullet went through about 14" of pit bull including a bit of bone). Round was on top of the grass, not even buried in the dirt.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/jlatzke/IMG_2595.jpg

I have been to one jello-killing class where we killed gelatin blocks with the round. Penetration and expansion were what you'd expect from a modern hollow point, and similar to both the .40 and .45 gold dots. Velocities were right below 1400 fps - even when shot from the 32 and 32c (which I thought was weird - I would have expected a bit more velocity loss). The fed HST's in .45 did open up a bit wider, but I still feel comfortable with this round.

It is very clean burning - easy clean up, and your tac light doesn't get gummed up by powder. The round seems very feed reliable compared to the .40 (just based on some schools I've been to with lots of 22 shooters). I have yet to see a non-shooter induced malfunction with this gun-round combo.

The round shoots very 'flat'. I shot our PD rifle qual course with the 32c a few weeks back just for fun (everyone else on the line had their AR's). I shot a 92/100 with it. No holdover needed. This gun-round combo has lead to the highest qual scores I have ever fired - it is very accurate. Here's my qual target from a few weeks ago. One of the 9's was at the 1 yard line. One of them was at the 15, and the other at the 25. Everything else was a 10 or x from 1-50 yards (50 round course of fire).

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/jlatzke/IMG_0702.jpg

Recoil is less than a .40, but a bit louder. Actually, the noise is on par with an AR. Inside a shoot house or in a live shooting, you can really feel the shots.

I was not too happy when my dept adopted the 31. I wanted a .45. I am a huge fan now. We pay the same for the .357 sig round as we would the .40 - but we buy a bunch of ammo at a time. I'm sure the per box price is different. Since I get free ammo, price is no issue for me.

I think it is a great round. It does what it needs to do, and is reliable and accurate to boot. It is the cleanest burning ammo I have ever experienced. I like it a bunch.

Alaskapopo

05-05-2007, 22:54

Originally posted by Snowman92D
When their "scientific" research does not square with observed reality, they "discredit" themselves, Pat. Why do you think the IWBA went belly-up...? Science has to agree with reality, or real end-users won't buy into the "science". Do you really think real, professional, sharp-end-of-the-stick end-users are that dumb?

Enjoy... :drink:

Thats not reality. Street based research and the scientific research camps actually agreed in their findings more than they disagreed. (Marshall vs Fackler) They just did not like the way each other came up with their conclusions.

Also the scientific community can be trusted much more than passed down word of mouth anecdotal war stories.

I have seen officer testimony vary greatly among honest officers about what happened during an incident. To take such events as the gospel on load selection.

Also you will find most sharp end of the stick users are following the recomendations of Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts very closely rather intentionally or not.

I respect the hell out of you Snowman but like I have said before. We are never going to see eye to eye on this issue.
Take care.

Pat

MOHAA Player

05-05-2007, 23:39

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Start your search here.
http://www.tacticalforums.com/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000368.html

Here is an post on that thread from Dr. Roberts a known expert in the field of wound ballistics.

"VLITT,

I believe you will find your answer here:
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html

"The statement that the .357Sig, “has the ability to defeat hard targets better it can expand more with an equal bullet type.”, is not supported by either our research or that of the FBI FTU Ballistic Research Facility in Quantico, VA. When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the .357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and .357 Sig loads."

In this same thread, SSA Boone from the FBI FTU describes how LE agencies can get the data from their testing.

Bottom line is that the 357 Sig is a slightly faster 0.355"/9 mm bullet; it does not have the mass of the .40 S&W or .45 ACP."

Pat Old data from DocGKR who is one person quoting gel test on a talk forum.The Texas DPS,the Federal Air Marshals Service,U.S. Secret Service,etc have all swicthed to the 357 Sig and reported it to be a excellent stopper.I can do a Google search and find good and bad reviews on any caliber like the one posted from DocGKR.
http://www.gunweek.com/2002/feature0210.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/357sig.htm
http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2223
The 357 Sig has a flatter trajectory then other service calibers which gives it better long range accuracy,ammo costs me the same as 40cal/45acp for jhp carry ammo(Speer GD jhp)it offers high capacity in a 9mm size weapon and as you stated in a early post I quoted greater barrier penetration and stopping power then the 9mm.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The 357 sig is more accurate and has better barrier penetration than the 40sw. ITs has more stopping power and more barrier penetration than the 9mm.
Pat

[quote]I'm still wondering why you said this which is a true statement but now say that it's not true.Where did you get the orignal research that made you post that statement?

MOHAA

MOHAA Player

05-05-2007, 23:55

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Check the date on the post. We have been over this before. I have changed my views over the years. Unlike you who changes your gun and caliber on a weekly basis. You have no room what so every to critique anyone for changing there mind. Do I need to pull out the PM's where you said I was right about the 9mm and how you agree with me about all the service rounds being roughly the same. The difference is my views have changed over the years after research and personal experience has led me to believe something else. I am not sure what drives you to change as fast as you do.

Pat I don't change guns I buy guns a lot.I own right now 22lr/38spcl/9mm/357mag/357sig/40cal/45acp/10mm/41mag/45Colt/12 gauge/7.62x39mm so I have no agenda here.I told you you where right about the 9mm in the hopes you would stop quoting posts that involved anything other then 9mm and postong that the 9mm does it the same but better.The rounds are not the same,the 9mm works as a self defense gun but there are others that perform better.You can call them war stories all you want but I never heard or read people saying that the 45acp,357 Sig,10mm,357 magnums just don't do it like those 9mm's.The 9mm works and I own 2 9mm weapons right now but I rather have something that hits harder or bigger in my hand if the SHTF.
MOHAA

Tactician

05-06-2007, 09:10

I had to buy a .357 sig conversion barrel for my G22. I wanted to see what all the hype was about. It is a very accurate round and clean burning. I'm a velocity junkie, the loud bang and snappy recoil is a blast to shoot.

That said, It has a very bright flash,(bad at night). The flip is going to slow down your follow up shots. If you buy into the energy dump theory, and believe the .357 magnum with the 125gr magic bullet is going to have a greater effect at stopping people, by all means carry the round.

I get my velocity fix from my 10mm now. The .357 sig is just another option I have. I carry the G22 most of the time. It is not the best at anything, but an excellent compromise caliber for me. It is bigger than a 9mm and faster than a .45 ACP. 15+1 rounds trumps anything a 45 ACP has to offer and is just behind a 9mm in capacity.

Is the 40 short and wimpy the best defense caliber out there? No way! Will it serve me well? I believe so, but what do I know? I felt confident with a .38 snubbie for years.

We spend too much time worrying about caliber and not enough time practicing. I'm probably more dangerous with a 3 cell flashlight than most folks with a bazooka.

Snowman92D

05-06-2007, 11:06

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
...the scientific community can be trusted much more than passed down word of mouth anecdotal war stories.

...just as agenda-driven politicians and MSM, who have never been near combat, can tell us more about defeating terrorists than our military veterans who have fought them face-to-face. Grape or cherry flavor today...? :drink:

Alaskapopo

05-06-2007, 11:14

Originally posted by Snowman92D
...just as agenda-driven politicians and MSM, who have never been near combat, can tell us more about defeating terrorists than our military veterans who have fought them face-to-face. Grape or cherry flavor today...? :drink:

A soldier knows how to fight on an individual level but it takes commanders to know how to run the war. So your example is a poor one. Also many people who have seen combat are firmly in Fackler and Roberts camp. That seems to be a fact you overlook.
Pat

JMBare

05-06-2007, 11:18

Ahhhh. This is fun... Reminds me of EVERY other forum I have ever joined!!! LOL

Same players, different game!

-JMB

MOHAA Player

05-06-2007, 11:32

Originally posted by JMBare
Ahhhh. This is fun... Reminds me of EVERY other forum I have ever joined!!! LOL

Same players, different game!

-JMB Same players,Sam game!
There's a patteren here if you look of baiting the same arguements,it's called trolling.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/trolls.jpg

Alaskapopo

05-06-2007, 11:54

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Same players,Sam game!
There's a patteren here if you look of baiting the same arguements,it's called trolling.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/trolls.jpg

This coming from one of the biggest trolls on the internet. One so obsessed with flaming me that he started following me to other internet gun forums to bash me. Do you want a list of all the forums I post at?

Also expressing an opinion or sharing a fact is not baiting. You seem to think that anything posted that does not agree with you is baiting.

Secondly if I was baiting and you allow yourself to be baited your the one who is at fault. I have no control over your actions. What your saying is similar to a 10 year old boy saying another boy made him hit him.

We all should be more grown up than that. :upeyes:

Pat

MOHAA Player

05-06-2007, 12:17

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
This coming from one of the biggest trolls on the internet. One so obsessed with flaming me that he started following me to other internet gun forums to bash me. Do you want a list of all the forums I post at?

Also expressing an opinion or sharing a fact is not baiting. You seem to think that anything posted that does not agree with you is baiting.

Secondly if I was baiting and you allow yourself to be baited your the one who is at fault. I have no control over your actions. What your saying is similar to a 10 year old boy saying another boy made him hit him.

We all should be more grown up than that. :upeyes:

Pat Whatever you say Pat:whistling:

Alaskapopo

05-06-2007, 12:32

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Whatever you say Pat:whistling:

let me guess you are plugging your ears right now saying I can't hear you na na.
:upeyes:
Again a little maturity would go a long way. Weren't you the one who was just saying we should all try to act like adults?
Pat

MOHAA Player

05-06-2007, 12:42

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
let me guess you are plugging your ears right now saying I can't hear you na na.
:upeyes:
Again a little maturity would go a long way. Weren't you the one who was just saying we should all try to act like adults?
Pat Sorry Pat but I'm not being baited into an arguement:wavey:

Alaskapopo

05-06-2007, 12:44

Originally posted by MOHAA Player

There's a patteren here if you look of baiting the same arguements,it's called trolling.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/trolls.jpg

MOHAA PLAYER SAID
Sorry Pat but I'm not being baited into an arguement

END QUOTE

Oh really who exactly is doing the baiting again? Sorry bud but your the biggest baiter and hypocrite here. Unless of course you think calling someone a Troll is not baiting them.
Pat:

MOHAA Player

05-06-2007, 12:47

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Oh really who exactly is doing the baiting again?
Pat:animlol: Obviously the guy who can't just walk away and say have a nice weekend:thumbsup:
Hey I seen Spiderman 3 last night Pat,it was awsome you should check it out:thumbsup:

Alaskapopo

05-06-2007, 12:49

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Obviously the guy who can't just walk away and say have a nice weekend:thumbsup:

Well it seems to me that you started this little pissing contest and you have answered every reply I have made in this thread to you. So its you that can't walk away.

Pat

MOHAA Player

05-06-2007, 12:51

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Well it seems to me that you started this little pissing contest and you have answered every reply I have made in this thread to you. So its you that can't walk away.

Pat I'm going to reply everytime you accuse me of starting something like just now with the pissing macth comment.I just said have a nice weekend so if you consider that a pissing macth you have some serious life issues.Once again Pat not looking to argue and enjoy the rest of your weekend:wavey:
MOHAA

Alaskapopo

05-06-2007, 12:54

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
I'm going to reply everytime you accuse me of starting something like just now with the pissing macth comment.I just said have a nice weekend so if you consider that a pissing macth you have some serious life issues.Once again Pat not looking to argue and enjoy the rest of your weekend:wavey:
MOHAA
You know very well you started this little pissing match with your troll comment. I aimed nothing at you personally in this thread until you jumped in and flamed me. That is your typical pattern.
Anyway I would love to continue this battle of wits with you but its fairly obvious you're unarmed. So have a nice day.
pat

MOHAA Player

05-06-2007, 12:57

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
You know very well you started this little pissing match with your troll comment. I aimed nothing at you personally in this thread until you jumped in and flamed me. That is your typical pattern.
Anyway I would love to continue this battle of wits with you but its fairly obvious you're unarmed. So have a nice day.
pat You almost said have a niceday without adding bait to try and keep a arguement going,anyway the mods and Eric don't want bandwidth wasted with crap like this Pat,so I'll let your last bait tactic(the wits comment)go and just walk away like a man:wavey:
MOHAA

Alaskapopo

05-06-2007, 13:06

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
You almost said have a niceday without adding bait to try and keep a arguement going,anyway the mods and Eric don't want bandwidth wasted with crap like this Pat,so I'll let your last bait tactic(the wits comment)go and just walk away like a man:wavey:
MOHAA

My wits comments is no more sinister than your troll comment and picture. I am walking away at this time only because I work nights and I really have to get to bed. I am sure you will jump back in for a last work and personal attack.
Pat

Clem Eastwood

05-06-2007, 13:59

i used to believe in energy dump, but then my former boss had me watch a training video of a failure to stop he had after he put a hot .357 magnum load through a guys heart. the SOB turned around and ran 200 yards. that and my buddy who put a 6.8 SPC through the chest of a suicide bomber and he was still able to detonate the device killing about a dozen of our troops.

i like 9mm and up because they all penetrate, but based on the above i dont believe any of them can be counted on to provide instant incapacitation. they are all good rounds but every one of them can fail. pick the platform caliber combination that works best for you.

fwiw, my roomate and i used to use old car hoods as target backstops for shooting. i never had a 9mm, .40, .45, .357 or even a .22 not penetrate. the testing shows that .357 SIG and 10mm are better hard penetrators then 9 and .40, pick what works best for your application.