If maximum penetration is the requirement...

[shannow]

Hi. How do the glock calibres rank in terms of pure penetration ability? Am i right in saying that the 9mm and 357sig calibers have better penetration than the 40 or 45 due to their higher velocities? In my neck of the woods criminals have been known to run around in stolen police bulletproof vests. I own a glock 19 but i'm thinking about upgrading to a 357sig for max penetration purposes. Stopping power is less important to me( i can always pull the trigger again to drop the assailant), but first the bullet must penetrate...

[Glolt20-91]

It's all about bullet construction, plus heavier bullets tend to deflect less. When it comes to wound volume, it's hard to beat the .45acp.

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php?sort=pen1

Check the clothed column for wound volume rather than the "naked" column. :)

Bob

[walrus108]

None of those will make a bit of difference against a vest. A 9mm is also not higher velocity than a 40. Maybe the slowest 40 is slower than the fastest 9mm but that's meaningless. Get a lightweight, very fast 40 or 357sig (check out double tap ammo). The most that's gonna do though is punch through car doors. If your dealing with bad guys in vest, head shots or a FN five-seven is your only chance.

[Rugby]

A vest will stop all the common hangun calibers. Any ball or non-expanding bullet should give you over penetration, especially the heavier bullets. If the BG is wearing a vest, your only hope with a handgun is to aim at the head and/or legs. Then you can always go to the trunk and get the AR-15...

[YoungShooter86]

No handgun caliber, even the 5.7x28, will defeat a police vest with the plates. Kevlar only? Maybe, but I would not count on it. I would not even count on the 5.56nato to do a good job on a vest wearing BG bent on destruction, the 55-60 grain bullet would get deformed on impact on those plates. You need a 30-06 or a .308. Try the G3, only the most expensive vests can stop a 7.62 nato round. Or use a good hunting rifle.

YS

[fredj338]

The 375sig w/ a 115gr solid copper bullet going 1500fps "might" make it but I think you are worrying about a problem that is pretty unlikely to happen. Practice so you can hit a target the size of a grapefruit, moving @ 25yds, then think about headshots or shots to the hip.

[stmcelroy]

Two shots to the chest and one to the head would definitely be my training regiment in your situation.

Or like fredj338 said, shoot for the pelvic area, nothing puts down a person quicker.

Steve

[toots shor]

Originally posted by stmcelroy
Two shots to the chest and one to the head would definitely be my training regiment in your situation.

Or like fredj338 said, shoot for the pelvic area, nothing puts down a person quicker.

Steve

what is the typical response of an individual shot COM with a bullet proof vest? it would seem like while there wouldn't be any bleeding, it would still hurt like hell. thoughts?

[method]

If you want penetration, go 7.62x25mm. It's too bad no one's done an updated pistol for it.

[GRR]

Originally posted by toots shor
what is the typical response of an individual shot COM with a bullet proof vest? it would seem like while there wouldn't be any bleeding, it would still hurt like hell. thoughts?

Wouldn't think that there is a "typical" response. Would expect it to be directly related to the amount of adrenalin in the individuals system.

[EAJuggalo]

amount of adrenaline and mind-altering chemicals.

[Glolt20-91]

There's always the well known Garrett ammo in .44mag that penetrates like a .375 H&H.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/about.asp

Bob :)

[pugman]

I am not a ballistics expert, nor do I play one on t.v.

Based on your post, what about "stunning" power. Maybe an LEO here can comment if they have ever been hit in the vest with a BG's bullet in a common caliber. Does a hit to a vest throw you back or take you off your guard enough where someone could take a second more accurate shot. I'm trying to think of a good analogy and can't.

My thought is if someone takes one to a vest, they are off their heels enough by surprise, the blunt force of the shot, etc where a second better placed head shot will finish the job

But what do I know, I live in Wisconsin where you can't carry any way

[fredj338]

Nope, sorry guys. I have had LEO frineds take rounds. It's like taking a body bunch, If you are expecting it, you hardly skip a beat. If you are not it would affect you w/ about the same level of surprise as someone walking up & giving you a good whack.
The BofA shooting here showed that perfectly. You could see rounds landing on the BGs & they just kept shooting. If you can't stand it's hard to fight. Head or pelvis.

[Glock17JHP]

Originally posted by fredj338
Nope, sorry guys. I have had LEO frineds take rounds. It's like taking a body bunch, If you are expecting it, you hardly skip a beat. If you are not it would affect you w/ about the same level of surprise as someone walking up & giving you a good whack.
The BofA shooting here showed that perfectly. You could see rounds landing on the BGs & they just kept shooting. If you can't stand it's hard to fight. Head or pelvis.

True...
I have video of a guy who makes body armor who does demonstations where he shoots himself in the center of the chest with a .44 Magnum, and allows another guy to shoot him with a .308, also from only 5-10 feet MAX... it is amazing how small of n effect there is ith a good vest... the .308 did not knock him down, and he even took a second hit standing on one leg...

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by Glock17JHP
True...
I have video of a guy who makes body armor who does demonstations where he shoots himself in the center of the chest with a .44 Magnum, and allows another guy to shoot him with a .308, also from only 5-10 feet MAX... it is amazing how small of n effect there is ith a good vest... the .308 did not knock him down, and he even took a second hit standing on one leg... I've watched the same video. It was produced about 15 years ago. They also proved some of the old myths wrong, by demonstrating that even with a .50 Browning MG, shooting through an engine block is easier said than done. They also demonstrated how many rounds are wasted(due to climb)in full auto at a man sized target from a distance of only 25 yds. or so. One of the most informative(yet graphic)videos that I've ever watched was also produced around the same time, called "Deadly effects, what bullets do to bodies". I highly suggest watching this if you thirst for knowledge concerning terminal ballistics, but be forewarned: it's not for the faint of heart.:thumbsup:

[Glock17JHP]

There are 3 videos in the 'set'...
"Deadly Weapons", "Deadly Effects" and "Deadly Force" (examining the legalities of using deadly force)...
I still have the first two... loaned the other out, never got it back...
You are right, I would recommend all 3!!!

[degoodman]

Common police issue soft body armor, up through level IIIA is rated to take nearly any handgun round fired from a service pistol. Add the hard plates, and the plate will defeat an AP .30-06 round at least once.

Against potentially armored opposition, I was trained to shoot for the three H's in order, Heart, Hips, Head. A head shot is much harder to hit than the chest or pelvic girdle, and the pelvic girdle moves the least as a person is moving, and always in the direction of travel. If you ever played american football (noting that you're from south africa) defensive players were always coached to key off a man's hips, not his head.

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by degoodman
Common police issue soft body armor, up through level IIIA is rated to take nearly any handgun round fired from a service pistol. Add the hard plates, and the plate will defeat an AP .30-06 round at least once.

Against potentially armored opposition, I was trained to shoot for the three H's in order, Heart, Hips, Head. A head shot is much harder to hit than the chest or pelvic girdle, and the pelvic girdle moves the least as a person is moving, and always in the direction of travel. If you ever played american football (noting that you're from south africa) defensive players were always coached to key off a man's hips, not his head. Good posting :thumbsup:

[shannow]

Thanks guys. We play a game called rugby here. Similar to american football. I understand your reference to the movement of the hips in that context. I never thought of the pelvic area as a potential target with a firearm, but it makes sense...

[Rugby]

Originally posted by shannow
Thanks guys. We play a game called rugby here. Similar to american football. I understand your reference to the movement of the hips in that context. I never thought of the pelvic area as a potential target with a firearm, but it makes sense...

Huh? What?;)

[shannow]

Sorry about using your name in vain, but i assume with that name youre familiar with the sport...anyway, guess the 357sig is not the answer i was looking for. I'll stick with my user friendly g19 then...which is a great gun, by the way...when you see it, you just wanna touch it...

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by walrus108
None of those will make a bit of difference against a vest. A 9mm is also not higher velocity than a 40. Maybe the slowest 40 is slower than the fastest 9mm but that's meaningless. Get a lightweight, very fast 40 or 357sig (check out double tap ammo). The most that's gonna do though is punch through car doors. If your dealing with bad guys in vest, head shots or a FN five-seven is your only chance.

You get more penetration from a heavier bullet with greater momentium and sectional density than you do from a faster lighter one. If you want penetration get the heaviest bullet in the caliber and load it as fast as you can and make sure its a FMJ.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by degoodman
Common police issue soft body armor, up through level IIIA is rated to take nearly any handgun round fired from a service pistol. Add the hard plates, and the plate will defeat an AP .30-06 round at least once.

Against potentially armored opposition, I was trained to shoot for the three H's in order, Heart, Hips, Head. A head shot is much harder to hit than the chest or pelvic girdle, and the pelvic girdle moves the least as a person is moving, and always in the direction of travel. If you ever played american football (noting that you're from south africa) defensive players were always coached to key off a man's hips, not his head.
Actually I prefer the more standard practice of shooting com then the head then the pelvics. Most handgun rounds do not have what it takes to break done the hip joint plus the bones you need to destroy in there are harder to hit than the head. Also a pelvis shot does not take the man out of the fight. It just takes his mobility if it works. There was a shooting up here about 10 years ago where a 12 gauge slug broke the shooters lower back but it did not stop him from sitting up and returning fire with a 44 mag. The Troopers then had to take a head shot which ended the fight.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by toots shor
what is the typical response of an individual shot COM with a bullet proof vest? it would seem like while there wouldn't be any bleeding, it would still hurt like hell. thoughts?

You can't count on pain to stop an attacker. There have been cases of people being hit with 12 gauge shotgun slugs while wearing body armor and still continuing to fight.
Pat

[akbound]

Breaking a pelvis will not necessarily take some one out of the fight, but if you take their mobility it does make them a much better target. If you watch the north Hollywood shooting even though they didn't take a pelvic shot they did take down one of the bad guys by targeting his legs. Once he was on the ground he became a much simpler problem to solve!

Dave

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by akbound
Breaking a pelvis will not necessarily take some one out of the fight, but if you take their mobility it does make them a much better target. If you watch the north Hollywood shooting even though they didn't take a pelvic shot they did take down one of the bad guys by targeting his legs. Once he was on the ground he became a much simpler problem to solve!

Dave
I am not saying the pelvic shot is bad. I am just saying be aware of its limitations.
Pat

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I am not saying the pelvic shot is bad. I am just saying be aware of its limitations.
Pat Right on Pat! Copy and paste the links in my sig line if you want to learn a thing or two about CQB. Some only talk a "good game", but I'd say we could all learn a thing or two from this guy! Simply amazing speed, coordination and physique! Lookout Dave Sevigny!:rofl:

[Mwinter]

1. 9mm Parabellum is one of the few handgun calibers that includes dedicated true AP loadings. Overseas (hopefully in SA) there products from IMI, Bofors, or Hirtenberger and others that will absolutlely fudge up soft body armor.
At one point there was an SA-manufactured round, similar to the GECO BAT, that was rated to penetrate soft armor. Can't recall the name but I'm sure one of my bullet-nerd compadres will fill in the blank (IMI brass, plastic nosecap on a alloy wadcutter-type bullet. The 5.7x28mm FN also has dedicated AP loads but I'm not sure you can get them in SA.

2. There are other handgun calibers and loadings that can and do drive conventional JHP or FMJ handgun bullets to speeds that will penetrate IIIa soft armor. Done it myself out in my yard with 3 different handguns (nope, not a 5-7). They're tough to find but they're out there. Lighter, pointier FMJ bullets do better on many barriers than heavier, flatter bullets. The heavier, flatter projos do better in *soft* barriers such as people.

[henchmen77]

Originally posted by YoungShooter86
No handgun caliber, even the 5.7x28, will defeat a police vest with the plates. Kevlar only? Maybe, but I would not count on it. I would not even count on the 5.56nato to do a good job on a vest wearing BG bent on destruction, the 55-60 grain bullet would get deformed on impact on those plates. You need a 30-06 or a .308. Try the G3, only the most expensive vests can stop a 7.62 nato round. Or use a good hunting rifle.

YS

A 5.56 NATO will punch throw a vest like it was not even there, less you have a rifle plate that will stop a 5.56/30-06/308.

[harleyfx69]

10 mm 10 mm 10 mm 10mm !

[ReAX222]

If you can't find one that will penatrate think about inflicting massive amounts of blunt trama. Just because the vest stops one bullet from penatrating the body, try multiple hits. Even if they don't go through, 3-6 shots to the chest aught to make him want to go away or atleast stop getting shot at.

[Snowman92D]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually I prefer the more standard practice of shooting com then the head then the pelvics. Most handgun rounds do not have what it takes to break done the hip joint plus the bones you need to destroy in there are harder to hit than the head. Also a pelvis shot does not take the man out of the fight. It just takes his mobility if it works. There was a shooting up here about 10 years ago where a 12 gauge slug broke the shooters lower back but it did not stop him from sitting up and returning fire with a 44 mag. The Troopers then had to take a head shot which ended the fight.

Handguns rounds don't have to "break done" the hip joint, Pat. They don't have to "break" anything to work in a fight any more than a well-aimed kick to the pelvic area has to "break" bones to knock you off balance...and cause you to go down if you aren't expecting it. It works because it's a transfer of energy and it's striking the center of the structural support for the skeleton. The area of the pelvis, from almost any angle, is substantially larger than the actual "lights out" area of the cranial vault. Why would you say something like that?

Is that why you "prefer" to aim for COM, because a pelvic hit doesn't "take the man out of the fight"? You talk about the trooper's 12-gauge slug breaking the felon's lower back and putting him down as though it were a "failure" of some sort, citing it as a basis for your COM preference. Do you understand that the operative part of the term "gunfight" isn't "gun"...it's "fight"? Ever wonder why hunters often aim for shoulder joints on large game...or do you aim for COM then too?

I'll confess, I don't shoot the amount of competetive cardboard that you do, but I gotta tell ya, your trooper hammering a one-ounce Foster slug through a violent criminal's lumbar area definitely wasn't a "failure"...it was yet another validation for using the pelvic area as an alternate aiming point. A prize-fighter might hope that his first punch takes his adversary out of the fight, but if he's got a brain in his head he won't expect it to. What he'll expect is for his first punch to give him an edge to land an even more effective second punch, and a third punch, etc. until he's overwhelmed his opponent.

Your trooper did the same damn thing, Pat. His pelvic area hit robbed the felon of his mobility, setting him up for an even more conclusive, fight-stopping shot. It's easier to hit stationary targets, most especially during a fight. I'm not sure how many of your cardboard targets move on you, but the real bastard in a streetfight is that your assailants go into lateral motion, and it's a b**** to hit them...that's why heavy buckshot is still pretty popular outside of tactical combat magazine-reader's circles. It's makes it easier to hit people when they're in motion.

If the trooper's hit in the lumbar area dumped the criminal on his keester, not only did he immobilize the "problem" and make it easier to hit with follow-up shots, he bought himself some precious time right at the juncture where he needed it most. Every person I've ever seen dumped on his butt with a pelvic hit had a momentary look of pure bewilderment on his face when he suddenly realized that he was now down and without his feet...like, "Damn...how'd I get down here?"

Most people don't "plan" for that possibility when they enter into a homicidal attack on someone else. It's a sudden surprize, and they'll be befuddled a couple seconds until they get a grip on what's happened and decide (or decline) to get back in the fight. There's a fleeting, low-grade mental stun going on when you go from standing erect, and things are going your way, to on your butt, stationary and even more accurate gunfire is incoming on your position. Sound like fun being down there...?

Getting forcibly dumped on your backside is something unexpected, unplanned for and leaves even the toughest assailant feeling like he's in deep doo-doo...for a second, or two...or even three, before he can mentally bounce back, re-orient to you and start shooting back at you with what he has left to fight with from the waist up. Does that sound like a position you'd like to be in? Sure he's still "dangerous" from the waist up...but he's vulnerable to accurate follow-up gunfire like few people are in a gunfight. How many follow-up shots can you accurately aim and hit with in a "one, one thousand...two, one thousand...three..." time-frame that dumping your attacker on his pins with a pelvic hit can buy you...? You have to look for that during a fight...and when you see it, capitalize on it.

So, is that why you "prefer the more standard practice of shooting COM"...cause you don't understand what a "gunfight" is? You gotta lay off the Kool-Aid, Pat. It's starting to show.

:drink:

[10mm4ever]

...of course hearing Pats rhetoric is no where near as eye opening as actually SEEING him in action!:rofl: Oh....those links:animlol: :laughabove: Even his "buddies" were chuckling.:animlol: :laughabove: :rofl:...the "CQB" master speaks!:rofl: :animlol: Oh, my side!:animlol: :rofl:

[MOHAA Player]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually I prefer the more standard practice of shooting com then the head then the pelvics.

Pat I was wacthing some of your training at the range,some nice shooting Pat.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-190950118312723364
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=936587591718722880

Was that a macth you where in or just you and some friends practicing?

MOHAA

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by Snowman92D
Handguns rounds don't have to "break done" the hip joint, Pat. They don't have to "break" anything to work in a fight any more than a well-aimed kick to the pelvic area has to "break" bones to knock you off balance...and cause you to go down if you aren't expecting it. It works because it's a transfer of energy and it's striking the center of the structural support for the skeleton. The area of the pelvis, from almost any angle, is substantially larger than the actual "lights out" area of the cranial vault. Why would you say something like that?

Is that why you "prefer" to aim for COM, because a pelvic hit doesn't "take the man out of the fight"? You talk about the trooper's 12-gauge slug breaking the felon's lower back and putting him down as though it were a "failure" of some sort, citing it as a basis for your COM preference. Do you understand that the operative part of the term "gunfight" isn't "gun"...it's "fight"? Ever wonder why hunters often aim for shoulder joints on large game...or do you aim for COM then too?


:drink:

Snowman a kick has a lot more momentum than any handgun bullet. A pistol or rifle bullet is not going to knock a man back or down. That little law of physics called every action has an equal and opposite reaction. For the bullet to knock the target over it the gun would have to knock the shooter over.


Second I mentioned the Trooper shooting to illustrate that a pelvic girdle shot will not always take the fight out of the man. It may take his mobility but he will still have the ability to return fire.

I believe in shooting com at first because its faster then following to the head if thats not working. (hence the failure to stop) I believe in going to the pelvics if the head can not be hit. Hence the ABC drill. A 2 or more shots to the com, B 1 or more shots to the head, C 2 or more shots to the pelvics and repeat as needed. That is what I was taught and what. Its also called the Mozambeak (sorry spelling is off) drill.


Pat

[Eddie C.]

Originally posted by 10mm4ever
...of course hearing Pats rhetoric is no where near as eye opening as actually SEEING him in action!:rofl: Oh....those links:animlol: :laughabove: Even his "buddies" were chuckling.:animlol: :laughabove: :rofl:...the "CQB" master speaks!:rofl: :animlol: Oh, my side!:animlol: :rofl:



You just keep pushing it don't you? I have had it.

Eddie C.