Problem - Help wanted

[cbecker33]

So, I detail stripped my new P45 to familiarize myself and reassembled paying careful attention to the sticky in this forum.

Unfortunately, now I am having extraction issues. I was careful to put the front extractor pin in with the concave side facing inward. My problem is that usually the last round in the magazine (while hand-cycling) will not extract. I have to drop the magazine, then when I pull the slide rearward, the chambered round simply drops through the magwell - it does not extract out the port.

After dissembling and checking the extractor tension, it does not firmly hold the round in place. In fact, the extractor looks as though it is not "hinging" properly to fully hold the round back against the breech face. Instead it appears to be putting lateral pressure on the round and pinning it against the side wall of the slide.

Additionally, the rim of the cartridges are getting nicked and chipped up pretty badly.

Any thoughts?

-Chris

(edited to add pictures)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/cbecker33/IMGP2317.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/cbecker33/IMGP2318.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/cbecker33/IMGP2321.jpg

[FreeMe]

Chris - your extractor hook is not as snug on the rim as mine on my K9. However - that is not necessary for proper function. It is the lateral pressure that actually holds the round in place. If you look at the extractor on a 1911, virtually all of them allow some space between the hook and the rim. Based on that and the side view of your extractor (which lines up with the ejection port just like mine) I'm thinking it looks okay.

Is there a chance that the last round is jumping ahead of the extractor when you hand-feed. It's the perfect setup for that to happen - the least amount of mag spring tension against slower and possibly inconsistent slide velocity than when fired. Does it ever do this under live fire?

[cbecker33]

Originally posted by FreeMe
Chris - your extractor hook is not as snug on the rim as mine on my K9. However - that is not necessary for proper function. It is the lateral pressure that actually holds the round in place. If you look at the extractor on a 1911, virtually all of them allow some space between the hook and the rim. Based on that and the side view of your extractor (which lines up with the ejection port just like mine) I'm thinking it looks okay.

Is there a chance that the last round is jumping ahead of the extractor when you hand-feed. It's the perfect setup for that to happen - the least amount of mag spring tension against slower and possibly inconsistent slide velocity than when fired. Does it ever do this under live fire?

There is that chance, but I have not had a chance to fire the pistol again. I figured I would ask a few questions first.

My concerns are:

1. The rims of the cartridges are getting chewed up bad enough that I wouldn't want to reload them after they had been shot two times - that doesn't seem right.

2. I have had had significant binding and inconsistent ejection on rounds other than the last one when hand-cycling , but the last one always locks up the gun tight and requires that I drop the mag and let the round fall out.

3. My Glock and Dan Wesson 1911 both hold the round much more securely and evenly.

4. The round will easily fall free from the extractor, not be held in the breech.

It appears that the following is happening:

The top round in the mag supports the round enough as it comes out of the chamber and that the round is correctly kicked up and out by the ejector. When the last round attempts to be ejected, the lack of an additional round in the top of the mag allows the round to fall slightly and binds the gun between the ejector and the chamber. If a turn the gun on its side and hand-cycle, I get perfect function.

Without the extractor spring pressing against the extractor, the round aligns itself perfectly in the breech, it just appears to me that the extractor is being pushed to far forward in the breech by the extractor spring.

I'm at a loss. A bit of good news though. Evidently we have a Kahr company lurker here and I received an e-mail (without me contacting Kahr) and they said that they will have engineering look at this post. Can't beat that!

-Chris

[FreeMe]

Okay - I understand better now. I thought maybe the round was not being engaged by the extractor at all under cycling. That appears not to be the case. It does look like you might have a bad extractor (hopefully) or a some bad machining on the extractor tunnel. Now that I look closer, it seems that the extractor is standing a little "proud" from the breechface.

The round should not fall out like that. Hope it's just a matter of replacing that extractor...:sad:

[moondog049]

cbecker33, did you try a restrip/assemble?, how much tension is on the extractor. I'm curious if the extractor spring or pin may be bound in the channel?? mine did....

My extractor has the gap to the breech face like yours.

[cbecker33]

Originally posted by moondog049
cbecker33, did you try a restrip/assemble?, how much tension is on the extractor. I'm curious if the extractor spring or pin may be bound in the channel?? mine did....

My extractor has the gap to the breech face like yours.

I have stripped/assembled it many times...still no luck.

I have no way to measure the tension, but the extractor requires a moderate amount of force to move outwards. I have to use the shaft of a cleaning brush as a lever to move it. The spring and both pins freely move through the channel.

Will your extractor securely hold a round in place without it drooping/moving? Is the base of the cartridge held parallel to the breech face or is it canted like mine?

-Chris

[moondog049]

cartridge/extractor look identical to your photo but mine holds???

I can move my extractor with finger(nail) pressure but could not before I deburred and polished all parts, incl. the extractor.

Have you been to shoot again yet?

[ipscshooter]

Originally posted by cbecker33
My problem is that usually the last round in the magazine (while hand-cycling) will not extract. I have to drop the magazine, then when I pull the slide rearward, the chambered round simply drops through the magwell - it does not extract out the port.



I maybe totally wrong, but it seems to me that what is happening is, with the mag in, and the last round is feed into the chamber and WITH THE MAGAZINE STILL IN you can't hand cycle that LAST round out of the chamber.

Stay with me on this...

If the mag is in and you have put the last round in the chamber. The mag is empty. Won't that cause the follower to ride up to the top of the mag. When you try to extract the round it bumps the follower and locks up the gun. Try and watch real close what is going on. It may not do it on your other guns because of the follower design.

Think about it. Why would you want to remove a live round from the chamber with an empty mag in the gun?

No shots here, just trying to help.

[ipscshooter]

BTW, the chewed up cases. You might try a very small polished radius on the edge of the extractor.

It's done all the time on 1911 extractors. Takes hand work that Kahr probably doesn't want to do, so you get a sharp edge from the CNC machining.

[cbecker33]

I appreciate the replies...maybe I am just over-thinking this. I really need to just go shoot. I have a feeling I've made a mountain out of a molehill.

I'll let you know what's up after I put a few rounds downrange.

-Chris

[ipscshooter]

Good luck.

You may remember I just bought a TP45 and tested it late last week.

After my successful range trip, I came home and took the thing apart to clean it, then put it back together to get ready to carry it that evening. I found that trying to hand cycle a round from a full mag the round seemed to get pushed down and the pick rail didn't catch the round. It did it twice. For some reason I just wasn't fast enough.

I noticed on my P9 Covert, hand cycling a round from a full mag is damn near impossible. In both cases if I download the mag by several rounds, it's no problem. I sincerely think you are seeing a little "quirk" of a Kahr pistol and your range trip will work out fine, as it did the first time.

Have fun and shoot safe.

[cbecker33]

Just to update. I went and put 98 more rounds through my P45 and it ran great. I guess my concerns about the extractor were unfounded.

My father did have a FTF with the P45, but I think this was due to him limpwristing it.

So, overall I am very pleased with the little Kahr!


-Chris

[TommyTomTom]

I'm glad it appears to be working now. There's been quite a few posts on hand cycling these pistols where some people have success and others don't. These are tight little pistols with strong springs and hand cycling them is tough. With my P9, if I put 5 or 6 rounds in the magazine, I can hand cycle them easily. If I put 7 in -- it's 50/50. The manual (I believe) says to use the slide-stop lever anyway for chambering the first round; that's what I do.

I've had 2 P9s since 2001 and love them; no failures of any kind.

Good luck with the P45!