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IronHorseman
05-11-2007, 17:15
Hey guys I will be attending a GOP training session July 21st on the IU-Southeast campus at New Albany. How many laws will I be breaking if I pack? I plan on traveling by motorcycle so leaving my sidearm discretely locked in my vehicle is not an option.

minuteman32
05-11-2007, 18:26
Unless you go to a "school" or happen to go to a daycare along the way, ...... NONE! IU prohibits carrying, but there is no LAW against it. If you are found out & asked to leave & refuse, you'll get arrested for "trespassing".

rhino465
05-12-2007, 20:17
Yep. IU and most other colleges are "don't ask; don't tell" zones.

Masque
05-12-2007, 21:53
Originally posted by minuteman32
Unless you go to a "school" or happen to go to a daycare along the way, ...... NONE! IU prohibits carrying, but there is no LAW against it. If you are found out & asked to leave & refuse, you'll get arrested for "trespassing".
Could you elaborate on the "daycare" portion of your assertion? Are you referring to 35-41-1-24.7? And if so, is there case law here?

(Mostly I'm curious 'cause packing.org could use an update if this is the case.)

Indy_Guy_77
05-13-2007, 11:21
Originally posted by Masque
Could you elaborate on the "daycare" portion of your assertion? Are you referring to 35-41-1-24.7? And if so, is there case law here?

(Mostly I'm curious 'cause packing.org could use an update if this is the case.)


My general RULE OF THUMB is: If it is a LICENSED day-care, pre-school, or school then = bad juju, verboten, felony, off limits, etc, etc.

Commercial day-care establishments (pre schools, Montessori schools, etc) are almost certainly ALL licensed...the neighbor lady down the street who watches a few kids in the afternoons...probably not.

-J-

salemons
05-13-2007, 12:47
My daughter goes to Ball State and I thought a college was off limits and you could only have with you if dropping off or picking up someone.

axel
05-13-2007, 17:06
Originally posted by salemons
My daughter goes to Ball State and I thought a college was off limits and you could only have with you if dropping off or picking up someone.
I don't have the regs in front of me but I believe somewhere else in the code it defines "school" as K-12. Colleges, universities, vocational schools, etc. don't meet the definition of "school" as it relates to firearms. But check out the regs first to see if I'm wrong.

Masque
05-13-2007, 18:17
Now you have the regulations in front of you. :)

From http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar41/ch1.html :

<code>"School property" defined
35-41-1-24.7 Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
&nbsp;(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
&nbsp;&nbsp;(A) a school corporation;
&nbsp;&nbsp;(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
&nbsp;&nbsp;(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
&nbsp;&nbsp;(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(ii) A special education preschool program.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
&nbsp;&nbsp;(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).
As added by P.L.296-1987, SEC.4. Amended by P.L.34-1991, SEC.27; P.L.9-1991, SEC.95; P.L.2-1992, SEC.880; P.L.81-1992, SEC.38; P.L.1-1993, SEC.240; P.L.160-1994, SEC.1; P.L.1-2005, SEC.227; P.L.145-2006, SEC.370.</code>

R. Emmelman
05-13-2007, 18:50
Originally posted by Masque
Now you have the regulations in front of you. :)

From http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar41/ch1.html :



So, where does it limit a "school" to K-12 in this code? One could argue that a university has several "schools". (i.e. Indiana University School of Law.)

minuteman32
05-14-2007, 08:26
As I am not a lawyer, most of my info comes from a laymans reading of the IN code & other sources such as "Indiana Handgun Law" by Bryan Ciyou, an IN attorney.

@ 1st glance a "school" seems pretty simple. What do you think of when you think of a school? I think of a K-12 school, public or private. I don't really think of a pre-school, college, daycare, etc. But I am not the prosecutor, I am not the police, I am not a judge.

One or more of the above could claim any number places as a "school" or "school event". For instance, there is a vacant lot between 86th & 96th st on Ditch Rd. in Indy that is owned by a school. A vacant LOT! There is (was) a water park in Greenwood that, w/o signage stating so, the ground it is located on is also owned by a school corp. Again, another stealth felony zone.

This is the very reason that we (all of us, working together!) need to change this law! The very least we should do is get "Has a valid license to carry a handun" added as an "exception" to the law (just like an LEO, dropping off/picking up, security, etc. are exceptions). If we did nothing but that, it wouldn't matter what the definition of "school" is because we would be exempt. Idealy, we would just get the whole law repealed, but the above would be a doable compromise!

txgho1911
05-14-2007, 15:53
MM32 just answered the OP question.
If it is a political event at an IU campus itis against the rules but not against the law. Until....
A local k-12 school sponsors a field trip to the same event.
So once the "school" kids unload from the buses, vans, parent's pickup or mustang with all the other "school" kids with staff and parents acting chaparone. You will be the bad actor may as well be walking through a middle school full of 7th graders.

IronHorseman
05-14-2007, 18:02
Originally posted by txgho1911
MM32 just answered the OP question.
If it is a political event at an IU campus itis against the rules but not against the law. Until....
A local k-12 school sponsors a field trip to the same event.
So once the "school" kids unload from the buses, vans, parent's pickup or mustang with all the other "school" kids with staff and parents acting chaparone. You will be the bad actor may as well be walking through a middle school full of 7th graders.

Actually I`m a GOP county chairman asnd I will be attending a training session. It looks like it`s time to dig out my Kramer Confidant.It conceals so well that I wore it and a Glock 19 to the `03 Indy 500.

WhiteWizard
05-31-2007, 16:55
First of all, packing.org is horribly outdated when it comes to Indiana stuff. I'd say you should just come here and ask around.

Now about the carrying at a school thing, I'd say it's not worth it. I go to IU Bloomington and after the tragedy at V-Tech, I'd say that they (the police and IU itself) would most definitely NOT be amused by ANYONE packing on their turf.

Which reminds me of what my buddy said a while back:
"Having universities that are 'gun-free zones' is like putting a sign in your living room window that says 'I'm completely defenseless; feel free to assault me with no risk of retaliation."

I'm REALLY curious about rhino's claim that "IU and most other colleges are "don't ask; don't tell" zones." though. I'm pretty sure that all HELL would break loose if they found ANYONE CCWing on campus. They don't even let IU police cadets have guns. All they have are those antique walkie talkies that have the same size and weight as a gold brick.

Fenway
06-02-2007, 18:43
The big thing here is CONCEALED carry. I spent many years at IUB. I didn't own a handgun during my time there but looking back on it if I had the handgun and the training I have now I wouldn't hesitate for a minute carrying on campus. In fact after the VT shooting I'd be even more likely to carry it.

Originally posted by WhiteWizard

Now about the carrying at a school thing, I'd say it's not worth it. I go to IU Bloomington and after the tragedy at V-Tech, I'd say that they (the police and IU itself) would most definitely NOT be amused by ANYONE packing on their turf.

seamus
06-06-2007, 20:28
I have carried on the IUB campus before and after the VA Tech tragedy. If one is good at carrying concealed nobody will ever know. I have never gone to an event like a basketball or football game because of the possibility of metal detectors being used there but for on-campus visits to my daughter I've never hesitated to carry.

ShackleMeNot
06-07-2007, 05:51
Originally posted by WhiteWizard

Now about the carrying at a school thing, I'd say it's not worth it. I go to IU Bloomington and after the tragedy at V-Tech, I'd say that they (the police and IU itself) would most definitely NOT be amused by ANYONE packing on their turf.

Which reminds me of what my buddy said a while back:
"Having universities that are 'gun-free zones' is like putting a sign in your living room window that says 'I'm completely defenseless; feel free to assault me with no risk of retaliation."



"Not worth it"? I'm not following your logic. You think AFTER someone has proven that it's easy to kill lots of students because they are all unarmed that it's a good idea to go unarmed?

When I was at IU I carried every day. I'll take expulsion over being dead.

rhino465
06-07-2007, 12:43
I had the same reaction, but I was in a "bite your tongue and don't say anything" mode when I read that.

I can't wrap my mind around logic that places more concern on the displeasure of the campuse police over personal safety, especially when a rather poignant example (i.e. VT) reminds us just how much we are always on our own, especially on a college campus in a so-called "gun free zone."

FThorn
06-07-2007, 12:50
I still don't get the service model, here.

I mean, YOU pay THEM yet colleges DICTATE TO YOU HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE!!!

That's F'd up big time in MY BOOK.

ShackleMeNot
06-07-2007, 18:23
Originally posted by FThorn
I still don't get the service model, here.

I mean, YOU pay THEM yet colleges DICTATE TO YOU HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE!!!

That's F'd up big time in MY BOOK.

Isn't this also true of our government?

rhino465
06-07-2007, 22:08
Originally posted by ShackleMeNot
Isn't this also true of our government?

It is since both sides lost the war between the states and the federal gov't became a multi-person king.

WhiteWizard
06-08-2007, 18:04
Maybe I should have explained my position a little better since it was obviously the less popular one. Sorry about that.

I was saying that I didn't think the benefits outweighed the costs. Keep in mind that you'll be going and not me, so naturally you'll put more value on the personal protection benefit than I will, sitting here safe at home.

Here's my logic, though:
It's summer break, so campus populations are dramatically lower, which means there's less of a probability of an unstable student going on a rampage.

Even if campus police have a lower number of officers on duty, there's still going to be proportionally more officers around, which means more people to notice you and possibly--however remote it may be--notice that you're carrying.

And my main focus was not the "displeasure of the campus police" but rather the overly dramatic reaction that would probably occur and the possible legal consequences it would have for you and the rest of us Second Amendment-loving citizens.

Besides, in general, I try to obey the laws, rules, policies, and other related material in the places I go, even if I think they're wrong. I figure we already have enough of a bad image of thinking we're above the law. We don't need to reinforce the stereotype.

But, like I said, it's you going, so it's your decision. I know that if the need arises, you'll want to be able to defend yourself and others. But I don't think it's gonna happen. In other cases, it might be different, but that's how I see this one. I take them each as they come.

For other views, the same topic is also discussed here (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-276283.html).

Fenway
06-08-2007, 23:05
A couple of things

1. I always wear my seat belt when I drive. Sometimes I have to leave early to get to a job. There are far fewer cars on the road at 5am vs 8am but I still wear my seat belt. I don't care if its October or July in Balentine Hall. Fewer people in that class when some kid goes postal means there is a much better chance you are the one getting jacked up.

2. I don't know if things have changed since I left in 2004 but I never saw Campus Police around. Ya they were driving in cars and on bikes. But they weren't in the halls and they hardly had any kind of "on the ground" presence when I was there. Those campus police are not actively looking for people carrying CONCEALED. I wouldn't worry so much about them.


Originally posted by WhiteWizard
[B]

Here's my logic, though:
It's summer break, so campus populations are dramatically lower, which means there's less of a probability of an unstable student going on a rampage.

Even if campus police have a lower number of officers on duty, there's still going to be proportionally more officers around, which means more people to notice you and possibly--however remote it may be--notice that you're carrying.