Is the forward vertical grip really necessary?

[Drjones]

Hi guys.

I was playing around with an AR this weekend (not literally...being completely safe & obeying all the rules, of course...) and was placing my weak hand on the front of the magwell and it seems to me that it would be much more effective than a rail-mounted vertical grip for several reasons:

1) Keeps your hand & arm closer to the body

2) Keeps your hand right on the magazine, which would make mag changes much faster than if you had to move it from the vertical grip to the magazine - your hand is already there, just press the mag release & stow the empty (which, again, is already in your hand) and then reach for a fresh one, which leads me to a question:

3) When your hand is wrapped around the magwell, the bottom half or so of your hand is on the magazine itself. Does pressure on the magazine affect feeding & reliability at all? Maybe that is the reason for the separate vertical grip?

4) Lack of a vertical grip is one less thing to snag, break, fall off, etc. KISS is best, as always.

5) I know I'm not the first to think of this as MEGA makes their GATOR lower with "meat tenderizer" on the front of the receiver for added grip when hand is placed in this position.

6) Keeping my hand on the receiver just seemed much more comfortable & offered much more control than having my weak hand several inches further out front, as everything is closer together.


So, it seems to me that NOT having a rail-mounted vertical grip makes more sense.

Anyone with more experience than me care to chime in?

Thanks!

[MrMurphy]

The VFG provides a better place to mount tape switches etc for lasers and lights without fouling the ejection port or magazine well. Especially tape switches, I used to have a IR laser aimer tape switch for the M203 mounted on the "thumb" side for a righty and it was a real Pain in the #@! as it snagged on everything.


For extended periods shooting or holding the weapon at the shoulder the magwell is good. For snap shots, and better grip with retention, the VFG tends to be better.

Not everyone keeps the VFG close to the magwell, some units prefer a more locked-out arm and a VFG farther out on the rail with a collapsed stock as supposedly this gives you better support and more control.

I have, in some of the odder shooting positions I've had to use, had my fingers (not in a tight grip, just cradling) around the magwell migrate upwards and cause a malfunction from empties striking my fingers and bouncing back into the ejection port. Not often, but enough times I figured out what I had done to myself. A VFG set on the last few rail positions keeps a similar grip without this possibility.


Pat Rogers did a test on the "holding the mag causes jams" thing with a class once (He wrote about it) and they could not induce malfunctions that were traceable to holding the mag being the cause.

I used the magwell grip on the M16A2, AK and various other rifles until a rail-equipped M4 was my issue weapon (I used the magwell grip on that M4 until the armorer got a KAC RIS on it) then gladly switched over.

We primarily shoot and carry ours while wearing body armor and thus most of us shoot/carry with the stock collapsed. If you have a collapsible stock, the VFG tends to be "comfortable" with the stock collapsed or 1-click open at the middle of the rail or the rear. If you have a fixed A2 length stock the magwell grip makes more sense unless you have monkey arms.

As to the VFG getting snagged, I have yet to snag mine on most things, from doors, windows, Humvee turret interiors, turret rings, seats, loadbearing vest (when I wore one) which snags on everything else, after a year and a half of carrying an M4 with one mounted 8-16 hours a day six days a week. Generally I have it slung on a 3pt across my front and either my right hand is on the pistol grip, or my left hand is on the VFG.

[paccw]

The best thing I like about AR's is they are slim and light.

I don't care for all of the extra stuff.

I added to a flattop-Red Dot scope and sling and that's it.With the Collapsible Stock I can carry and hide a rifle like this very easy.

Now if I had an M-16 and was kicking down doors I want it all.

[MrMurphy]

My M4 has a KAC RIS, Surefire 6P mounted, KAC VFG, sling, M68 (Aimpoint) PAQ4 IR laser. By my definition it's slim and light, since it weighs under 8 lbs or so and it's handy.

The other weapon i usually carry is an M240B, which weighs 27lb (gun alone) with a 50lb ammo can, barrel bag (another five pounds) and 100-round ready-carrier (another three pounds).


Aside from the Surefire, that's all issued equipment, i don't get to decide if it stays on or not, but it's not heavy.

[SlamFire1]

Now, I don’t know if this goes for anyone else, but for me, the VFG provides stability. I have noticed that with using a VFG, I can keep the rifle much more stable and on-target then I can just placing my hand traditionally on the fore grip. I does not seem to sway as much!

[JellyBelly]

My arms are too long to comfortably keep the VFG by the mag well.

I use a VFG on one of my ARs to support the heavy ARMS 50M handguard, Streamlight TLR-1, and EOTech 553. On my other ARs I keep it far less complicated.

[RMTactical]

I think this is a personal decision.

I tend to use the front of the magwell, but I like VFG's and I have considered getting one...

[Algaroth]

I also prefer holding the mag well. FVGs are just weird to me.

[Panzerfaust]

I like the VFG....

I need one a little bigger around. My hands are just a bit too big for the one on mine, right now....

[epsylum]

I have a Troy rail on mine so it tends to make it kind of front heavy. The mag grip works, but it is too far back for a good balanced grip. The VFG just a few inches forward (I like mine kind of close to the magwell) makes a world of difference to me. Plus mine is a Grip-pod, so I also have a bi-pod with it, which I may or may not use, but it is nice to have the option.

It is all personal preference. I not am going to tell anyone they HAVE to have one, or if they do, how or where they should put it (okay maybe putting a VFG on the top rail is not the best idea :supergrin: ). Just use what works for you. If a VFG doesn't work for you, then you get to save that little bit of money. ;)

[SW.FLA.glocker]

Holding the mag well was never a reason for causing a malfunction. Malfunctions can be caused by applying too much rearward preassure along the bottom of the mag thus causing it to tip downward and similarly causing the rounds to feed in a more downward fashion. I am not an expert but when I was in the Army I learned this was especialy true if one had an exceptionaly wobbly mag. You Know it is an issue when you have a jam and all you need to do to clear it is push the bottom of the mag forward again and the stoppage clears itself.

For this reason I have always been paranoid about holding the mag. Most of the time with serviceable mags the problem never occurs though.

[Cochese]

I like shooting with the magwell, but to be truthful, I'm more worried about getting tossed on a perimeter at work and/or holding an area of responsibility at the high ready for an extended period of time. With a front heavy M4 (mine will sport a rifle length rail, soon) it's a little more of a PITA to keep that weight level.

A VFG forward of the balance point where a bi-pod would go helps tremendously with that.

I am planning on a purchase soon of both a Grip Pod like Epsylum, and this from Botach which will have a TLR-1 hangin off of the side.

http://store.botachtactical.com/sdsdfsdf.html
http://us-f4-edit.store.yahoo.com/I/botach_1941_35377860

[Cochese]

Another picture.


http://us-f4-edit.store.yahoo.com/I/botach_1948_141420061

[epsylum]

Just FYI Cochese, the Grip-pod is pretty big. It is still smaller and less cluttered than having both a VFG and a seperate bi-pod on the gun at the same time though. The best part of it is the push-button spring loaded deployment of the bi-pod. Just push a button at the top of the VFG with your thumb and BANG, you got a bipod that clears a 30 round magazine.

[biggl35]

Originally posted by Panzerfaust
I like the VFG....

I need one a little bigger around. My hands are just a bit too big for the one on mine, right now....

Have you tried an ACE K-grip? The ACE is by far the best VFG IMHO.

Here is "not-so-good" pic.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/463026.jpg

[younggun22]

as it was explained to me .... its all about a-symetrical pressure

[SeriousStudent]

Tango Down is also making a shorter version of its VFG. Grant has them on his website. You might ask him how he likes them.

From what I have read, some people like the shorter grip, others don't. Go figure.

I don't have a rail or a VFG yet, I'm still studying choices and saving my pennies. We did not have rails or VFG's when I carried an AR for a living. So a lot of this is new to me, too.

I definitely agree with MrMurphy and Cochese - the weight adds up quick.

[JKG]

I also like using the front of the mag well instead of a VFG and had similar observations and concerns. No additional weight, comfortable, and I save myself some money.

I have never taken a carbine class or course but have heard from several people that after the first day many people remove their VFG and other accessories due to weight.

[MrMurphy]

That's because their rifles are essentially range toys, and they don't work with them.

In my case, i carry that weight all day every day, slung across my front or at the low ready, or sitting in a vehicle next to me, so the weight is not a big deal. Even for me though holding it in the firing position for hours gets heavy.

[Slvr Surfr]

I was taught that its not the best idea to hold the front of the mag well because it could tend to cause you to "pull" the rifle while shooting causing poor accuracy. Do you guys find this to be the case? Could the same line of reasoning go also for shooting w/ a VFG ?

Thoughts ?

[Flinter]

I liked the VFG I had in Iraq so much that I now have it mounted on my personal M-forgery. Before they had all the rails and grips and other neat doodads that mounted on the rifle, I habitually shot with a magwell hold. Never had a malfuction from that hold, nor did it adversely effect my shooting. Me using the "range correct" hold always flustered me, and caused many a bad shot, my hand on the forearm of the rifle is very unstable. Hold however makes you shoot tighter groups.

[MrMurphy]

You don't pull on the magwell or VFG, you cradle the weapon, and use a little backward tension. Not a deathgrip.

[gonnagetmine]

Originally posted by biggl35
Have you tried an ACE K-grip? The ACE is by far the best VFG IMHO.

Here is "not-so-good" pic.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/463026.jpg

i really like that flashlight mount--who makes it? thanks

[Drjones]

MrMurphy:

Thanks so much for your informative answer and for your service!!!

:patriot:

[zorozing]

New to all of this. What are the major manufactureres of VFG's? What do you all think of the Crimson Trace VFG w Laser?

http://www.crimsontrace.com/default.asp?id=567

Wondering if I can kill 2 birds with 1 shot. A VFG and a Laser. ;)

[Omen]

Tango Down seems to be the favorite for a straight VFG.

As for the Crimson Trace I personally wouldn't buy it. The first reason being that I really don't want a laser on my AR. I can get almost the same function from an Eotech without having to project a light at my target.

Second, the Crimson Trace VFG looks like it allows only for the "choke the chicken" style of VFG use.

So for me it's a no, but your needs and wants might be different.

[biggl35]

Originally posted by gonnagetmine
i really like that flashlight mount--who makes it? thanks

Sorry, I didnt see this question earlier.

The light is a Pentagon and the mount is a Viking offset mount.