Thoughts on Sighting-In a Laser

[glock-ewe]

I have an Insight M6 for my G35. Because the mounted axis of the laser and the axis of the barrel is vertically separated by approximately 2 7/16 inch, to coincide the laser dot with the point of impact, the laser axis must be tilted up. This means that closer than the sighted distance the laser dot will be below the POI. Farther than the sighted distance the laser dot will be above the POI. To be accurate at other than the sighted distance the shooter must estimate the vertical offset required.

My thought:
Instead of coinciding the the laser dot with the POI, maintain the laser axis parallel to the barrel axis. This means that the POI (in the case of the Insight M6) will be 2 7/16 inch below the laser dot. The advantage might be that this offset is constant from short range to long range. The shooter only needs to judge that one vertical offset no matter what the distance to the target.

Obviously, the closer the axis of the laser is to the axis of the barrel, the less offset required whether sighted to POI or parallel to barrel axis. Guide rod lasers only have 1/2 inch vertical offset. Much less to compensate either way.

[D. Manley]

Originally posted by glock-ewe
"...My thought:
Instead of coinciding the the laser dot with the POI, maintain the laser axis parallel to the barrel axis. This means that the POI (in the case of the Insight M6) will be 2 7/16 inch below the laser dot. The advantage might be that this offset is constant from short range to long range. The shooter only needs to judge that one vertical offset no matter what the distance to the target.

I read an excellent tutorial from one of the Crimson Trace staff members regarding sighting in (their) lasers. He pointed out that there are two schools of thought on this and both are valid. The 1st recommendation is to sight the laser in for the greatest distance you can steadily hold on a 1-inch sized target (not necessarily to be confused with a 1-inch group) and the 2nd method (your's) was to maintain the laser | barrel parallel relationship to the distance possible.

Either method is IMO, fine. I sighted my wife's G26 equipped with Crimson Trace to be "spot-on" at 15 yards. So adjusted, it will be no more than the barrel | laser offset from the muzzle out to over 25 yards which, is primary defensive range consideration. Your method does have merit but keep in mind, although the laser remains parallel to the barrel it will not remain parallel to the bullet's path so while the concept is good, as a practical matter I don't see it as a major issue either way. Since adjustments are pretty quick and easy, you've got the luxury of trying both methods and seeing what works for you. I'd make it a point to get some good, consistent groups at 7, 15 & 25 yards to have a better feel for whatever method you select.

[glock-ewe]

D. Manley, thanks for your comments. I have been thinking about this for some time even though I have my pistol and laser sighted in for the POI to coincide with the laser dot at a specific distance. I realize that the bullet's trajectory will affect the result but did not add that to my post because the post was getting a bit long. For me and my eye sight, at the distance the bullet is beginning to drop I don't think I can see the laser dot anyway. I primarily see the laser as a self defence aid to be able to accurately hit a target without using the sights to aim.

[RayB]

One of the benefits to the LaserMax design, is that the laser beam and bullet travel parallel, and close together, to any practical distance for self-defense, pistol applications.

--Ray

[M2 Carbine]

I sight in my lasers at about 25 yards. That petty much keeps the bullet strike and laser dot close together from point blank to about 40 yards.

Since my HD is as likely to be outside at night and out to 40-50 yards I want the laser sighted in further than what might be thought of as normal for a pistol.

For instance this might be what a 40 yard J Frame laser shot, in the dark, could be at my place.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/38Laser2-1.jpg

[M2 Carbine]

I thought I'd check out just what a Crimson Trace laser equipped compact size pistol does when the laser is sighted in at 25 yards.
The gun is a Kimber Tactical Ultra II shooting 200gr lead SWC reloads.
The 25 and 10 yard target shot mid day. The 40 yard target was shot about 7PM.

The 25 yard target was shot first. The laser dot was right hard to see. Even though I didn't shoot a very good group it can be seen that the laser is sighted in pretty close for 25 yards.

At ten yards the gun is shooting about 1 1/2 inches high.

At 40 yards about 2 1/2 inches low.

That's why I like to sight the laser in at about 20-25 yards.
Shots from up close, to back some distance should hit something of importance.:)

The Red circled bullet holes?
At first I was going to shoot the same target at 10 yards but realised that there wouldn't be a lot left of the target to compare holes.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/CTKimTacticaldistance.jpg

[kengps]

That's why I've not bought a laser/light combo yet. I want somebody to build a reasonably priced Laser/Light combo with the laser ABOVE the light. Makes no sense to me whatsoever to put the laser on the bottom.

[jdeere_man]

I think that's a really good thought, my only concern is in a moment of stress my mind would probably forget the offset and consider the bullet is going where the dot is. If you're aiming for the center it shouldn't matter that much anyway, it would still be effective. I think I would have better luck sighting it in at a resonable range for which it might be used in self-defense and go with that. I think you have a fair and valid argument on the matter, I'm not going to disagree on your opinion. I think ultimately it's a personal decision the user has to make. I might be more tempted to use your method if I was going to use the laser across a broad range of distances (ex. at 3 meters and 30 meters, vs. my plan to use it at around point blank to 10 meters max).

[M2 Carbine]

my plan to use it at around point blank to 10 meters max).

You know what they say about, "The best laid plans of mice and men".:supergrin:

If the laser is sighted in at about 10 yards, the bullet strike will still be within COM for some longer distance but probably not out past 25 yards. I have to check that out sometime.

But, I doubt how the laser equipped (defense) pistol hits past 20-25 yards is of any concern to most shooters.
If I didn't have the possibility of having to make a long pistol shot, I'd sight my lasers in at 10 yards.

I've tried paralleling the laser beam and bullet path but ended up just sighting in at a known distance. Throughout a useful distance the bullet strike, if I do my part, will still be close to the dot.


But realistically, does it really matter if the bullet strike is an inch or two high or low within the total length of your expected shooting distance?
Like shooting my, sighted in at 25 yards, J Frame at ten yards. It's still doing the job.
Fun shooting.:)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/38timedlaser.jpg

[Gordov2]

I have a Lasermax in my G23 and the only drawback is that you cannot sight in a standard Lasermax. You can with the new ones that mount on the rail under the gun, but I don't want that version. I want the internal version. You can pay $10 and have the laser custom sited, which I did, but at the end of the day the non-custom sighted laser worked out better. In my opinion, that's the only drawback on the standard Lasermax.

[podwich]

Originally posted by glock-ewe
I have an Insight M6 for my G35. Because the mounted axis of the laser and the axis of the barrel is vertically separated by approximately 2 7/16 inch, to coincide the laser dot with the point of impact, the laser axis must be tilted up. This means that closer than the sighted distance the laser dot will be below the POI. Farther than the sighted distance the laser dot will be above the POI. To be accurate at other than the sighted distance the shooter must estimate the vertical offset required.


By maintaining the laser and the barrel in parallel to each other, you are in essence sighting the laser in to a longer range.

Honestly though, within SD ranges with a pistol it probably doesn't make much of a difference.

[glock-ewe]

Originally posted by podwich
By maintaining the laser and the barrel in parallel to each other, you are in essence sighting the laser in to a longer range.

Honestly though, within SD ranges with a pistol it probably doesn't make much of a difference.

I am sure you are right. I still have my laser sighted in at a SD distance. Still, I might try the parallel sighting in the near future. Then I will need to always compensate the 1 7/16 inch low offset.

[Mr.M2]

I have a TLR2 on a Glock21. I used a laser bore sight. When the two dots hit the same point it was ready to go. I sighted it in around 30 feet.

[M2 Carbine]

Originally posted by Mr.M2
I have a TLR2 on a Glock21. I used a laser bore sight. When the two dots hit the same point it was ready to go. I sighted it in around 30 feet.

I've never used a bore sight. Just how accurate are they?

[Dink74]

Originally posted by M2 Carbine
I've never used a bore sight. Just how accurate are they?

The gunsmith who installed my wifes red dot sight on her .22 used a bore site and it is set for POI at 25 yards and it is dead on. The difference is negligible at 10 yards and about 5 inches high at 50 yards because the dot cross the barrel.

Dink

[M2 Carbine]

Thanks.
I'll look into them.:)

[Mr.M2]

The laser bore sights are not too expensive either. I don't have a shooting stand or table to sight in. With the laser I can stand up and move around with no need to keep the gun still.

[VictoryRider]

I adjust the laser sights on all my handguns to be dead on at 50 ft. which is the furthest distance I can under any circumstances shoot inside my home. I figure if they are off by an inch or so at shorter distances no big deal.

[tinman517]

I just recently readjusted my TLR-2 to be spot accurate at 14 yards for my G23.

[BigWaylon]

Originally posted by Mr.M2
The laser bore sights are not too expensive either. I don't have a shooting stand or table to sight in. With the laser I can stand up and move around with no need to keep the gun still.


is this something like you're talking about?

http://www.opticsplanet.net/aimshot-universal-laser-bore-sights.html

with three Crimson Trace units (that I've yet to attempt to sight-in), this could make it much less painless...

I'm training with the handguns with the CT grips installed, but without batteries...so I don't "learn" with the laser, but I do "learn" with the grip...

Thanks.
Greg

[BigWaylon]

Originally posted by BigWaylon
is this something like you're talking about?

http://www.opticsplanet.net/aimshot-universal-laser-bore-sights.html

with three Crimson Trace units (that I've yet to attempt to sight-in), this could make it much less painless...

I'm training with the handguns with the CT grips installed, but without batteries...so I don't "learn" with the laser, but I do "learn" with the grip...

Thanks.
Greg


nevermind...after reading a bit, I can't get it done for $14.95 :)

that's just the arbor to use in a .40...you also have to buy the $60 30 Carbine laser boresight...

still, $75 isn't too bad...since it's only $15/each after that for new arbors...

but I may also look at this one ($49.99), since maybe I could get it local at Bass Pro:

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?CMID=TOP_SEARCH_GO&langId=-1&searchOption=products&hvarSearchString=38-884-119-00+&catalogId=10001&partNumber=55317&storeId=10151&y=6&cmCat=SEARCHRESULTS&x=10&ddkey=SearchResults

[BigWaylon]

BTW...I ordered one of the Aimshot units...

the one at BassPro said it needed a 4" barrel...and the G27 definitely is too short with the G23 coming in at 4.02", which I figured was just cutting it too close...

the boresight laser and the arbor are backordered, so I ought to have it in a couple weeks...some other places had it in stock, but it was $10 less at OpticsPlanet (due to free shipping) , and I wasn't in any hurry...

Greg

[skeeeter]

Walmart has a laser bore sighter for $39. It works great!!! It will work on anything from a 22 to 50 cal. It is worth it in what it saves on ammo if you use it for your rifle(s) and pistols. It sights them in right on.

[BigWaylon]

Originally posted by skeeeter
Walmart has a laser bore sighter for $39. It works great!!! It will work on anything from a 22 to 50 cal. It is worth it in what it saves on ammo if you use it for your rifle(s) and pistols. It sights them in right on.


does it have a minimum barrel length?

Greg

[RayB]

I am a proponent of the parallel beam & bullet philosophy, hence my preference for LaserMax.

These small bore lasers revolutionized astronomy too, making collimation of a compound scope a few minutes worth of work, instead of an afternoon's!

Pretty cool! :banana:

--Ray

[skeeeter]

BigWaylon -I believe the min. length is 4"

[BigWaylon]

FYI...my boresight and .40 arbor are scheduled to be delivered Friday 7/6...hope to be able to test it out over the weekend...

Greg