chrome lined or chrome moly

[TwinGlock40z]

just wondering if someone could really explain the differences as far as accuracy, reliability, longevity(dont know if i spelled that right nor not) and such.

i've had a few ar's and dont think i've ever had a chrome lined. i've never had a problem with any of my barrels so far. is it worth the price difference to get a chrome lined?

[RMTactical]

Chrome moly is not a reference to whether a barrel is chrome lined or not. Chrome moly barrels come with and without chrome plating, depending on the manufacturer and/or your specification. Usually it won't cost anymore than $30-50 to upgrade to chrome lining.

There is no reason not to chrome line your chrome moly barrel if your number one concern is reliability. Some manufacturers charge $30 or so for chrome lining. Other manufacturers chrome line their barrels standard.

The 5.56/.223Rem cases are hardly tapered at all so the case makes contact with the chamber for much of the feeding and extracting. That is why it is so imperative that your chamber stays clear of corrosion, rust, and pitting. This was a lesson that was quickly learned by the military when it rushed the M-16 into service in Vietnam.

William Davis, Former Chief, Small Arms Branch recalled that, “The principle problem was a failure to chrome plate the chamber. That was the cause of the serious malfunctions that caused the controversy in Vietnam.”

Chrome will also make the chamber more “slick” than steel, which will enhance feeding and extracting. Some manufacturers like Bushmaster even claim that the slickness of the chrome will actually increase velocity. Even if that is true, I doubt it is significant.

Chrome lining increases the life of your barrel (almost double). It will ease cleaning and maintenance as well.

The one downside to chrome is an ever so slight decrease in accuracy. This difference in accuracy is practically unnoticeable and will not be missed in a defensive weapon. Trust me, the average shooter will never notice the difference in accuracy with a chrome lined bore. The AR is so inherently accurate already, why not trade off a tiny bit of accuracy for a tremendous upgrade in reliability?

[Rob96]

William Davis, Former Chief, Small Arms Branch recalled that, “The principle problem was a failure to chrome plate the chamber. That was the cause of the serious malfunctions that caused the controversy in Vietnam.”

Come on now. The controversy in Vietnam was the fact that the non-combatant bean counters in D.C. changed the spec of the powder and didn't issue cleaning kits and told the soldiers the weapon was self cleaning.

When it was only Special Forces in Vietnam on an "advisory" role;) , the weapon functioned fine, becasue they practiced good weapons maintenance.

Truth be told, a civilian shooter will not notice any difference between the two.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by Rob96
Come on now. The controversy in Vietnam was the fact that the non-combatant bean counters in D.C. changed the spec of the powder and didn't issue cleaning kits and told the soldiers the weapon was self cleaning.

When it was only Special Forces in Vietnam on an "advisory" role;) , the weapon functioned fine, becasue they practiced good weapons maintenance.

Truth be told, a civilian shooter will not notice any difference between the two.

Well, they were all factors, but the lack of chrome lining was the biggest issue because the corrosion in the chambers of the rifles...

Lack of cleaning kits, change of powder... all contributing factors of course...

As for civilian shooters not noticing the difference... that depends on what they plan on using it for and how hard they run the weapon. Chrome makes for a more robust (barrel), reliable rifle.

And at almost double the barrel life for only $30-50... why not?

[crazymoose]

Originally posted by RMTactical
And at almost double the barrel life for only $30-50... why not?

Exactly. The only reason any companies put out non-chromed barrels is because they're cheap and hope customers won't know any better- yes, I'm talking about Rock River Arms, among others. The "increased accuracy" argument is crap, as virtually all of the best accurized ARs use stainless barrels because they're so much easier to machine consistently.

The lack of chrome lining is one reason I won't touch a SIG 556.

[Rob96]

What about all of the service rifles prior to the AR platform? No chrome lining and they did well.

Denny Hansen of SWAT magazine had an unlined Oly go 80,000 rounds before it suffered reliability problems.

An AR builder did a test on uppers that were fired full auto. The unlined barrels went 20,000+ rounds before going tango uniform.

I just don't get hung up on it. When mine gives up the farm, I will replace it, but don't know with what.

[crazymoose]

No one's saying an unlined barrel won't work, it's just that chrome lining is a cheap upgrade that gives substantial benefits- they will last longer, they will be easier to clean, and they'll perform better if you ever have to really push your rifle hard. Show me a chromed and a non chromed gun, otherwise identical, and when they get dirty and really hot, the chromed gun will work better.

[Gary G23]

I agree with RMTactical and crazymoose. All of my centerfire rifles are chrome lined. I would not buy one that wasn't.

[12131]

On a side note, how do/can you visually tell the two apart?:headscratch:

[PlasticGuy]

Originally posted by crazymoose
Exactly. The only reason any companies put out non-chromed barrels is because they're cheap and hope customers won't know any better- yes, I'm talking about Rock River Arms, among others. The "increased accuracy" argument is crap, as virtually all of the best accurized ARs use stainless barrels because they're so much easier to machine consistently.

The lack of chrome lining is one reason I won't touch a SIG 556.
While I'd prefer chrome lined barrels for my combat rifles, I'm not as insistant on it as I once was. Yes, it increases barrel life. Yes, it makes cleaning easier. Yes, it will theoretically improve reliablility. That said, there's a lot more to the equation than that. If you're insisting on using direct gas impingement AR's instead of the Sig 556 because of the chrome lining issue, you're really missing out. At Thunder Ranch last week my Sig 556 functioned 100%, while 9 out of 11 AR-15's with chrome lined barrels either broke or at least malfunctioned multiple times. I may have to spend a little extra time cleaning my barrel at the end of the day, but cleaning my bolt and carrier simply means wiping a little powder off the breech face. That seems like a pretty fair trade. Ideally, I'd have a Sig 556 with a chrome lined barrel, but I'd rather have a non chrome lined Sig 556 than a chrome lined AR-15 after seeing people fight their AR-15's last week. If you don't agree, that's fine. I do think you're missing out though.

As far as increased accuracy, there is some benefit to not chrome lining your barrel. I'll bet a lot of hard earned cash that you can't find a serious bench rest shooter with a chrome lined barrel, and they'd do anything to increase barrel life and ease cleaning if it didn't cost them anything in accuracy. For combat purposes it may not be enough to matter, but there is a difference.

[Rob96]

Well if chrome is the end all be all, you need to replace your barrels with the new Noveske barrel that has machine gun grade chrome lining. It is suppose to last 2x's as long as regular chrome.:thumbsup:

If you look at some of the other boards this issue comes up quite frequently. a poster by the name of Bartholomew Roberts does very good write ups on the AR. In his unoffical studies, a chrome barrel generally lasts 2-3,000 rounds longer than an unlined barrel. Not a very big difference.

Buy whatever you want and shoot it. With the scarcity of ammo, I don't think anyone will be shooting out their barrels.:rofl:

[TwinGlock40z]

well i'm still torn. i know someone who has really good deal on an upper but its not chrome lined. i will be shooting quite a bit for swat practice. after reading all this and doing my own research i am leaning more towards a chrome lined barrel...just trying to find a good deal.

is e.r. shaw a decent barrel. i found a 14.5 chrome lined e.r. shaw on gunroker for 210 bucks.

and like someone else asked. how can u tell if a barrel is chrome lined or not.

[isuzu]

I'd still go for chrome-bored barrels for the M16.

I have seen a lot of non-chromed barrels of Philippine Army and Navy personnel that have worn out and corroded barrels even if their rifles were fairly new. The Philippines, being a tropical country where humidity is a concern, I will go with a chrome-lined barrel. Even new M16s can see significant barrel corrosion after being exposed to just a week in jungle conditions.

Navy personnel opted to keep their M14s which had chromelined barrels which were resistant to salt spray compared to the non-chromed M16s. Their 1911s also later had chromelined barrel replacements (7791193 barrels).

The Philippine Marines, Army Rangers and Special Forces are issued Colt M16s with chromed barrels, and their rifles' barrels lasted longer than the Elisco, majority which were non-chromed.

[isuzu]

Originally posted by TwinGlock40z
and like someone else asked. how can u tell if a barrel is chrome lined or not.

Colt chromelined barrels have a "Chromelined" stamped on them (as my M16 in the Philippines has). I'm not sure with other manufacturers, but I'm sure they have a way of identifying if a barrel is chromelined or not.

[isuzu]

Originally posted by Rob96
. In his unoffical studies, a chrome barrel generally lasts 2-3,000 rounds longer than an unlined barrel. Not a very big difference.

That may hold true if the rifle is just used in the range, cleaned, and stored after using. But exposure to harsh environments such as high humidity and salt spray which is the norm in a tropical country like the Philippines, the chromelined barrel would go a long way compared to the non-chromed ones.

[Rob96]

Originally posted by isuzu
That may hold true if the rifle is just used in the range, cleaned, and stored after using. But exposure to harsh environments such as high humidity and salt spray which is the norm in a tropical country like the Philippines, the chromelined barrel would go a long way compared to the non-chromed ones.

You don't have to tell me about the environment of the Phillippines. I was stationed there as a USAF SP for two hot, sweaty years. First off you are only exposed to salt spray if you are near the water. The only time I was exposed to water was when we got hit by typhoons. If you read my earlier post about Special Forces in Vietnam a little more closely, you will see they were using the original unlined barrels and had NO problems. This in an equally hot, humid environment.

I am not saying chrome is useless. I am merely saying that if you get an unlined barrel, don't sweat it.

Another interesting tidbit I have read was a report by NSFWG Crane on M4 barrel failures. They had chrome lined barrels fail after as little as 500 rounds fired full auto. This was attributed to the chrome flaking off the inside of the barrels. I am not an engineer or anything so I can't explain it any further than that.

Shoot what you get and when it breaks, replace it.:thumbsup:

[isuzu]

Originally posted by Rob96
You don't have to tell me about the environment of the Phillippines. I was stationed there as a USAF SP for two hot, sweaty years. First off you are only exposed to salt spray if you are near the water. .

I am not saying chrome is useless. I am merely saying that if you get an unlined barrel, don't sweat it.

Another interesting tidbit I have read was a report by NSFWG Crane on M4 barrel failures. They had chrome lined barrels fail after as little as 500 rounds fired full auto.

Shoot what you get and when it breaks, replace it.:thumbsup:

You probably were stationed mostly at Clark, which corrosion is not that bad. Philippine Army soldiers are deployed in a variety of environments; be it the jungle, a detachment near the sea and sometimes in urban areas. They sometimes spend weeks at a time before going back to their bases. Theses environments take a heavy toll on equipment, especially for those deployed in the jungles and moving through several islands of Mindanao fighting the Abu Sayyaf which is mostly sea crossings.

The Philippine Armed Forces doesn't have the luxury of "when it breaks replace it" thing. Replacement parts can reach the troops for months at a time, that's why the troops there value having an M16 with a chrome lined barrel. ;)

BTW, the US Armed Forces are back in the Philippines under the Visiting Forces Agreement. Clark is ever busy now, as well as Subic. The floating drydock has been recalled from Guam after being inactive for about 15 years. Hundreds of US troops are in Mindanao helping the Armed Forces of the Philippines fight the Abu Sayyaf and they have also been going around the country conducting civic missions.

[MisterPX]

Chrome also helps prevent corrosion, as already mentioned, so if you live somewhere with bad humidity, it helps, plus all the attributes already mentioned. Accuracywise, Jonh Q. Public won't be able to tell.

As far as the M4 testing, a non chrome barrel would burst too.

[Gunfixr]

Since no one has addressed this, you can usually spot a chrome lined barrel at the muzzle or chamber end. There is usually a ring of chrome around the edge of the muzzle and chamber where the lining ends just outside the bore and chamber. The black phosphate coatings will not stick to it and leaves it standing out.

[Rob96]

Originally posted by isuzu
You probably were stationed mostly at Clark, which corrosion is not that bad. Philippine Army soldiers are deployed in a variety of environments; be it the jungle, a detachment near the sea and sometimes in urban areas. They sometimes spend weeks at a time before going back to their bases. Theses environments take a heavy toll on equipment, especially for those deployed in the jungles and moving through several islands of Mindanao fighting the Abu Sayyaf which is mostly sea crossings.

The Philippine Armed Forces doesn't have the luxury of "when it breaks replace it" thing. Replacement parts can reach the troops for months at a time, that's why the troops there value having an M16 with a chrome lined barrel. ;)

BTW, the US Armed Forces are back in the Philippines under the Visiting Forces Agreement. Clark is ever busy now, as well as Subic. The floating drydock has been recalled from Guam after being inactive for about 15 years. Hundreds of US troops are in Mindanao helping the Armed Forces of the Philippines fight the Abu Sayyaf and they have also been going around the country conducting civic missions.

Yup, Clark it was, except for a brief humanitarian trip to San Fernando right after the earthquake. Let's see, earthquake, multiple typhoons,coup attempt, multiple Americans assassinated, it was a "fun" two years. if only I was there for the volcano.:shocked:

[isuzu]

Originally posted by Rob96
Yup, Clark it was, except for a brief humanitarian trip to San Fernando right after the earthquake. Let's see, earthquake, multiple typhoons,coup attempt, multiple Americans assassinated, it was a "fun" two years. if only I was there for the volcano.:shocked:

Not to stray from the thread, but you were and still are a very big help to the Philippines. It was the US Air Force who defueled and dismantled the PAL BAC 1-11 that overshot the NAIA runway into the South Super Highway. The US Armed Forces were one of the first to arrive in Baguio complete with mobile hospitals, sniffer dogs, etc. after the earthquake; it was the US Armed Forces' technology who helped locate Abu Sabaya of the Abu Sayyaf and put him down. Without the US Geological Survey, we wouldn't have been forewarned of the Mt. Pinatubo eruption.

The Philippine Air Force recently received 20 UH1H choppers from the US.

Thanks, and cheers!;)

[Rob96]

Originally posted by isuzu
Not to stray from the thread, but you were and still are a very big help to the Philippines. It was the US Air Force who defueled and dismantled the PAL BAC 1-11 that overshot the NAIA runway into the South Super Highway. The US Armed Forces were one of the first to arrive in Baguio complete with mobile hospitals, sniffer dogs, etc. after the earthquake; it was the US Armed Forces' technology who helped locate Abu Sabaya of the Abu Sayyaf and put him down. Without the US Geological Survey, we wouldn't have been forewarned of the Mt. Pinatubo eruption.

The Philippine Air Force recently received 20 UH1H choppers from the US.

Thanks, and cheers!;)

You're quite welcome and cheers to you as well. It was definetely an interesting two years. If you are ever in Allentown,PA we'll discuss the PI over some San Miguels.:cheers:

[stevo1207]

Can you get a barrel chrome lined? If so, then where and what are the costs?

[isuzu]

Originally posted by Rob96
You're quite welcome and cheers to you as well. It was definetely an interesting two years. If you are ever in Allentown,PA we'll discuss the PI over some San Miguels.:cheers:

You made me drool with the San Miguel Beer!:supergrin: Anyway, here's a link to the video to what happened recently in Tipo-Tipo Basilan. About 100 Philippine Marines encountered almost 500 Moro Islamic Liberation Front and Abu Sayaff terrorists. They were out to locate and rescue an Italian priest kidnapped by the group. 14 Marines were killed, ten of whom were beheaded. The Philippine Marines are still using M16A1s and M14s. The video also shows the dud 81mm mortal shells (victims of high humidity in the jungle). Gunships are UH1Hs and Hughes 500s. Sorry, there's only limited English spoken in the news item:

http://www.gmanews.tv/largevideo/related/8982/Marines-engage-MILF-rebels-in-7-hour-battle-in-Basilan

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by Rob96
This was attributed to the chrome flaking off the inside of the barrels. I am not an engineer or anything so I can't explain it any further than that.


Hmm... No. Not possible. Chrome PLATING will flake off, hard chrome bonds at a molecular level, it can not "flake" off.

We don't chrome plate barrels, they are done in hard chrome.

:patriot:

[Rob96]

Originally posted by Minuteman
Hmm... No. Not possible. Chrome PLATING will flake off, hard chrome bonds at a molecular level, it can not "flake" off.

We don't chrome plate barrels, they are done in hard chrome.

:patriot:

Just stating what CRANE put in their report. Flaking, chipping whatever you want to call it, there were spot where the chrome was missing.

[jem375]

Originally posted by Rob96
What about all of the service rifles prior to the AR platform? No chrome lining and they did well.

Denny Hansen of SWAT magazine had an unlined Oly go 80,000 rounds before it suffered reliability problems.

An AR builder did a test on uppers that were fired full auto. The unlined barrels went 20,000+ rounds before going tango uniform.

I just don't get hung up on it. When mine gives up the farm, I will replace it, but don't know with what. it's amazing that during WW2 with all the harsh climates and humidity that the troops went through that we won the war without chrome lined barrels...:) If you live in a harsh climate or shoot fully auto, then sure get the CL barrel.....

[ReAX222]

It always makes me wonder how the indians ever survived.

[bps72]

Originally posted by crazymoose
Exactly. The only reason any companies put out non-chromed barrels is because they're cheap and hope customers won't know any better- yes, I'm talking about Rock River Arms, among others. The "increased accuracy" argument is crap, as virtually all of the best accurized ARs use stainless barrels because they're so much easier to machine consistently.

The lack of chrome lining is one reason I won't touch a SIG 556. RRA has chrome-lined barrels available for their rifles as an extra cost option.

[TwinGlock40z]

i've had a rock river chrome lined barrel in one of my ar's that i no longer have. cant really tell a difference in either of the 2.

but i decided to purchase a e.r.shaw chrome lined barrel. i will be shooting it quite often and will be shooting 3 round burst every now and then.

although i dont think that a barrel not being chrome lined will ever keep me from buying something at a good price.

thanx for all the info though guys.

[isuzu]

Originally posted by jem375
it's amazing that during WW2 with all the harsh climates and humidity that the troops went through that we won the war without chrome lined barrels...:) If you live in a harsh climate or shoot fully auto, then sure get the CL barrel.....

I've seen M1 Garands that were left by the US in the Philippines that are still in service by the Citizen Armed Forces Geographical Unit (CAFGU). They are paramilitary groups that are under the supervision of the Army.

Some barrels are really bad because of the corrosive primers that were first used in the Garand's ammo. That's why they required regular cleaning to prevent corrosion.