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theTactician
07-07-2007, 03:46
In real life combat situations, which would you prefer? tactical reload? or speed reload? forget about paper targets or steel poppers that dont shoot back, and you need cover as badly as a good sight picture in a situation where you're indeed under fire, which type of reload would you rather do?

Valor1
07-07-2007, 05:17
tactical. sayang mags ngayon mahal na. ok lang speed reload basta after the gunfight kunin ko mags at baril ng kalaban :supergrin:

Rebel_James
07-07-2007, 05:28
Of course the 'Tactical Reload' just has to be better. After all it's got the word TACTICAL in it's name!

I just got in a case of 'Tactical Toilet Paper.' Once it arrived I realized it was nothing more than a repackaging of the old 'John Wayne Toilet Paper.'

You know, the stuff thats 'Rough and Tough and don't take **** off Nobody!'


Bottom line, if it says 'Tactical' it HAS to be better!!!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/Rebel_James/TripleGlocks009.jpg

royal glockster
07-07-2007, 07:24
If it is between life and death situation, and spare ammo is not an issue..then nothing beats the speed reload..:thumbsup:

theTactician
07-07-2007, 07:38
i agree. speed reload is still the move you can depend on in times of extreme stressful situations.

bulm540
07-07-2007, 08:02
Originally posted by royal glockster
If it is between life and death situation, and spare ammo is not an issue..then nothing beats the speed reload..:thumbsup:
Ditto! Move while doing speed reload.

isuzu
07-07-2007, 09:06
I remember I joined a competition back in the Philippines(well, several of them) designed by Joe Lopez-Vito, a student of Col. Jeff Cooper. The course was made to teach us how to save our mags. We were only limited to 4 single-stack mags, which, according to him is the average no. of mags one carries concealed in a 1911. He told us that we could either do speed or tactical reloads.

Those who dumped their mags either weren't able to finish the course or had to backtrack and retrieve their dropped mags just to finish the course.

He didn't specify the no. of rounds to be used in the course. He is famous for creating surprise COFs. His rationale (and I've always believed in it)is that in the real world, you don't know what to expect.

Allegra
07-07-2007, 09:29
Anyone knw a gunfight where reloads saved the day?

harleyfx69
07-07-2007, 09:47
yes

Allegra
07-07-2007, 10:36
why

maskytrading
07-08-2007, 20:28
Am for speed reload because of this article...
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/treload_061604/index1.html

jerrytrini
07-08-2007, 23:39
Here is how I was trained every other month for the last 11 years:

Tactical reload is used when there is a momentary lull (I know redundant)during an engagement. This is where we re-assess, recover or regroup.

Speed reload is just that, reload now when you know your pipe is empty. Otherwise, tac reload, keep your mag but maintain contact with suspect, assess and re-engage if you have to.

This training is used during shotgun qual months as well.

Hope my reply helps.

HEAVY
07-08-2007, 23:46
i must admit, that article makes some very good arguments against the tac reload.

i'm re-thinking my stand, actually.

maybe a speed reload, then retrieve the partially-loaded mag from the ground if you need to. the writer suggests the same at the end part of the article.

has IDPA paid any attention to this?

TTPower
07-09-2007, 05:48
in my understanding TACTICAL reloads are suppose to be done under cover (where u have time on ur side and u can assess ur surrounding for incoming hostiles) it is suppose to give u the advantage of a fully charged weapon and at the same time keeping the partially used mag if ever u need more ammo.

i dont think any1 would even attempt a speed reload if his weapon still has ammos and he's under fire without cover :)

saki1611
07-09-2007, 10:13
IMHO, i need to practice both. changing magazines in real life scenario would be on case to case basis. you might be needing to tactically change your magazine if you have the opportunity to do so and you have limited ammos, yet in different scenario where time is the essence speed load is a must. so on both styles there's no pros and cons. wala kang tulak kabigin...

Poodle
07-09-2007, 18:14
Doing a tactical reload with a Glock 21 is a killer. You are likely to drop the mags, injure your fingers when they get caught between mags and magwells, fumble with them or fail to lock the mag in the magwell. With the G19, tactical relaods are manageable. In a gunfight however, I'll most probably be doing speed reloads.

If I have somebody else covering me, I could probably do tactical reloads, but if I'm all alone, I'll do speed reloads and try to run away as fast as possible from the gunfight zone.

HEAVY
07-09-2007, 19:42
agree on all counts.

if an assailant is on the move, running towards you with a big shiny knife or a rusty pipe, that is the worst time to do a tac reload.

like saki and jerrytrini said, practice both and know when to apply them.

Allegra
07-09-2007, 20:46
In a civilian setting , could it be the only reason you have to reload is because you were missing---a lot

saki1611
07-09-2007, 21:43
Originally posted by Allegra
In a civilian setting , could it be the only reason you have to reload is because you were missing---a lot

in real threat scenario almost all targets/perpetrators are moving, naturally people will seek for safety when there's threat. the same as you, you will consciously put yourself to safety as you engage. most likely missing the target are possible. a big difference between IPSC match and the real threat is you're engaging targets that shooting back. yet it's an advantage that you join matches whether IPSC or IDPA to develop your "stability under pressure" and the confidence that you can hit. in the match your aim is to get the highest points in the shortest time, in real life threat your goal is to survive. the outcome of a course in a match is most likely predictable, which is contradicts in real life because your targets think. you can even practice your moves as you enter the stage of a match. therefore it's better to practice both reloading styles as you don't know what might be the "course" you are entering to. if practicing reloads in matches is a must, how much more in life threatening course. ;)

Allegra
07-09-2007, 22:17
Originally posted by saki1611
in real threat scenario almost all targets/perpetrators are moving, naturally people will seek for safety when there's threat. the same as you, you will consciously put yourself to safety as you engage. most likely missing the target are possible. a big difference between IPSC match and the real threat is you're engaging targets that shooting back. yet it's an advantage that you join matches whether IPSC or IDPA to develop your "stability under pressure" and the confidence that you can hit. in the match your aim is to get the highest points in the shortest time, in real life threat your goal is to survive. the outcome of a course in a match is most likely predictable, which is contradicts in real life because your targets think. you can even practice your moves as you enter the stage of a match. therefore it's better to practice both reloading styles as you don't know what might be the "course" you are entering to. if practicing reloads in matches is a must, how much more in life threatening course. ;)

Could it be if you have thinking ,moving targets and yu are not able to neutralize them or flee to safetey , it might be you are dead before you have time for the speed load

Anyone know a gunfight scenario between civilians ( barilan bertween plitical goons not included ) where more than 1 mag was needed?

saki1611
07-09-2007, 22:37
mostly owning a gun is for the purpose of self defense, being ready for possible threats. as we always say, "better have it when you don't need it, rather than you don't have it when you don't need it." the same factors when owning a gun, after owning a gun we need to know when and how to use it. hitting the targets is the utmost necessity when it comes to firearm, it's the goal. yet the question now is do we need speed re-load and tactical re-load? my opinion then, both have to be practiced whether for match purposes or self-defense purposes. it's better that i have it when i don't need it, rather than i don't have it when i need it... :thumbsup:

how i wish that we can choose the number/s of the perpetrators when we engage such. otherwise what's the use of hi-cap guns, even a single stock if i can always choose the number of my enemies according to the number of my carry ammos. i would always choose a man versus man fight then, with a single ammo on my chamber.i don't need to reload...:supergrin:

revo
07-09-2007, 23:18
Let's see now.

Why are we anticipating engaging in real life combat ?

First, except for saki and jerrytrini, most of us are untrained for force-on-force engagements.

Secondly, to engage in a gunfight without formal LEO or military training, a person becomes a danger to himself and others. Sorry, IPSC/IDPA competition, though not completely uselss, is not LEO or military training. It's just a shooting sport. And that's it.

Thirdly, a pistol for civilians is a purely defensive weapon to create space to get OUT of there safely and not to use to engage in running gunbattles with perps. Your job is to keep yourself alive by avoiding a fight primarily or if unable to avoid engagement, just use enough rounds to stop the threat - unlike IPSC/IDPA where you try to shoot as many rounds downrange as possible in the shortest period of time.

Does this make sense ?

HEAVY
07-09-2007, 23:20
personally, i think not practicing reloads (of any kind) because we are confident we'll never need to do it in an actual shootout (stats say a very high percentage of gunfights are concluded in 5 or less rounds, i think), maybe a little naive if not a little foolish.

i mean no disrespect, this is just a strong personal conviction and opinion.

and like navels...

Poodle
07-10-2007, 04:40
Originally posted by revo
Let's see now.

Why are we anticipating engaging in real life combat ?

First, except for saki and jerrytrini, most of us are untrained for force-on-force engagements.

Secondly, to engage in a gunfight without formal LEO or military training, a person becomes a danger to himself and others. Sorry, IPSC/IDPA competition, though not completely uselss, is not LEO or military training. It's just a shooting sport. And that's it.

Thirdly, a pistol for civilians is a purely defensive weapon to create space to get OUT of there safely and not to use to engage in running gunbattles with perps. Your job is to keep yourself alive by avoiding a fight primarily or if unable to avoid engagement, just use enough rounds to stop the threat - unlike IPSC/IDPA where you try to shoot as many rounds downrange as possible in the shortest period of time.

Does this make sense ?

I agree that we should leave force on force engagements to LEO's. The weapon is for defensive purposes (when I am left with no choice) hopefully giving me a chance to stop the threat or to flee to safety.

While it is true that some LEO's have specialized training (like SWAT members) and are immersed in situations approximating real gunfights, it is true also that there are LEO's who practice the way we civilians practice, i.e., IDPA and IPSC aside from their regular training. I've seen many LEO's who are very proficient in the use of firearms.

But we should concede that there are many LEO's here in the Philippines who hardly practice. This was sadly admitted by a police general friend (whose name I will not mention). I was in the range one time when a policeman tried to shoot a steel popper from 15 meters. He used up all 15 rounds without hitting the target. I hope that they would send somebody else to help me in case I need the assistance of the police. Anyway, I think I can more or less gauge the weapons proficiency of a LEO just by looking at the holster and mag pouches that he uses and the state of his firearm (if it is clean).

I think that most civilian - civilian encounters involve no necessitiy of mag changes but this notwithstanding, I would practice speed and tactical reloads. If I'm alone, I will use speed reloads but if I have someone covering me and the engagement is extended, I would use tactical reloads.

Poodle
07-10-2007, 04:48
What about "shooting on the move"? Do you think it's necessary. I can never hit anything if I am moving relatively fast.

Allegra
07-10-2007, 06:10
Originally posted by revo
Let's see now.

Why are we anticipating engaging in real life combat ?

First, except for saki and jerrytrini, most of us are untrained for force-on-force engagements.

Secondly, to engage in a gunfight without formal LEO or military training, a person becomes a danger to himself and others. Sorry, IPSC/IDPA competition, though not completely uselss, is not LEO or military training. It's just a shooting sport. And that's it.

Thirdly, a pistol for civilians is a purely defensive weapon to create space to get OUT of there safely and not to use to engage in running gunbattles with perps. Your job is to keep yourself alive by avoiding a fight primarily or if unable to avoid engagement, just use enough rounds to stop the threat - unlike IPSC/IDPA where you try to shoot as many rounds downrange as possible in the shortest period of time.

Does this make sense ?

Agree except that I would bet on an IPSC shooter vs 98% cops or military :)

Eye Cutter
07-10-2007, 06:42
fafa A: di ba walang tatalo sa "sayonachi style" natin???

:supergrin: :banana: :animlol:

JBJ16
07-10-2007, 06:47
Originally posted by Allegra
Agree except that I would bet on an IPSC shooter vs 98% cops or military :)

Situational awareness and professional "wits" or gulang sa labanan at araw-araw na buhay. These are the LEO/Mil. weapons 90% of the time, only 10% is actual weaponry and skills.

Most IPSC/IDPA shooters come from so called well-to-do and comfy lifestyles, not usually engaged it the nitty-gritty of street/jungle life; ergo, combat "wits" not practiced on a regular basis.

So IMO when SHTF comes, LEO/Mil shooters hands down!:thumbsup:

Allegra
07-10-2007, 07:38
Originally posted by JBJ16
Situational awareness and professional "wits" or gulang sa labanan at araw-araw na buhay. These are the LEO/Mil. weapons 90% of the time, only 10% is actual weaponry and skills.

Most IPSC/IDPA shooters come from so called well-to-do and comfy lifestyles, not usually engaged it the nitty-gritty of street/jungle life; ergo, combat "wits" not practiced on a regular basis.

So IMO when SHTF comes, LEO/Mil shooters hands down!:thumbsup:


Where did yu get these facts may I ask?
Kasi I get a lot of requests for training or supervising training for LEOs and I trained my city's swat team
My opinion is based on what I observe lang
( tip - dont mess around w/ the PSG! )

Rich and comfy lifestyle? Dun mga ako takot
Spoiled warfreaks whoknow how to shoot

charlie-xray
07-10-2007, 07:41
My take on this, 1st hand from an Army friend.

Nobody could beat or would have a very hard time beating the PNP in Pistol/Semi-Auto.

Nobody could beat or would have a very hard time beating the Military in Long arms.

Now special forces, swat, delta or scout rangers are a totally different story.

A target that's shooting back at you is a totally different ballgame.

I remember this friend of mine telling me that, you should not be that afraid if somebody is shooting at you constantly (layman's term sunod-sunod ang putok) you should be more afraid of the who's aiming and watching every round that goes off (layman's term pa-isa isa ang putok or sniping).



Originally posted by JBJ16
Situational awareness and professional "wits" or gulang sa labanan at araw-araw na buhay. These are the LEO/Mil. weapons 90% of the time, only 10% is actual weaponry and skills.

Most IPSC/IDPA shooters come from so called well-to-do and comfy lifestyles, not usually engaged it the nitty-gritty of street/jungle life; ergo, combat "wits" not practiced on a regular basis.

So IMO when SHTF comes, LEO/Mil shooters hands down!:thumbsup:

Allegra
07-10-2007, 07:43
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
fafa A: di ba walang tatalo sa "sayonachi style" natin???

:supergrin: :banana: :animlol:


ayoko na ng sayonachi

Na overtrain yata ako for the subic triathlon may chemical imbalance , kaya parati mainitin ulo
grrrrrrr....
:)

jcaraker
07-10-2007, 07:52
Originally posted by Poodle
Doing a tactical reload with a Glock 21 is a killer. You are likely to drop the mags, injure your fingers when they get caught between mags and magwells, fumble with them or fail to lock the mag in the magwell. With the G19, tactical relaods are manageable. In a gunfight however, I'll most probably be doing speed reloads.

If I have somebody else covering me, I could probably do tactical reloads, but if I'm all alone, I'll do speed reloads and try to run away as fast as possible from the gunfight zone.


Just curious as to why the large frame pistol is such a booger to tacload while the compact is so much easier. I run a G22 and a G17, and have no exp with the G21/20

Just like weapon mounted flashlights and lasers, reloading techniques all have their place. Deciding where and which to use is the biggest challenge. I can't honestly put one above the other in a general discussion.

theTactician
07-10-2007, 10:39
It is a fact that us civilians are not constantly engaged in real life combat situations but we have guns simply because we know that we have the right to defend ourselves and in so doing, in our subconscious minds, we entertain the fact that "it" can happen to us. Like they say, we should always be vigilant, never lax wherever we go, may it be in our very own homes, in our garage, in the parking lot, ...there is always that possiblity of getting that threat to our very lives and by practicing, training ourselves tactically, we get prepared for anything. while it is also true that nothing can prepare us for the real thing, it is always beneficial to attend shooting competitions and constantly train "tactically" in order to give us a better chance of surviving a real gunfight than the other guy. right?

Poodle
07-10-2007, 16:51
Originally posted by jcaraker
Just curious as to why the large frame pistol is such a booger to tacload while the compact is so much easier. I run a G22 and a G17, and have no exp with the G21/20

Just like weapon mounted flashlights and lasers, reloading techniques all have their place. Deciding where and which to use is the biggest challenge. I can't honestly put one above the other in a general discussion.

I have a G19 and a G21. I usually don't have difficulty doing tac loads on the G19 because the magazine is not that wide and I can manage to grip two mags at once. Also, the weight of a fully loaded G19 mag is not that substantial. It is also easier to slam it inside the magwell, the compressed mag springs (fully loaded) do not offer that much resistance.

Now the magazine of a G21 is a lot wider and heavier. It is more difficult to grip two mags at once and a lot harder to slam it in the magwell because the mag springs offer a lot of resistance. There are times during competition when my magazines would just drop off because I was not able to slam it with enough force (I thought that the mag was already locked) during tac reloads. A guy with really big hands would probably not have difficulty.

jcaraker
07-10-2007, 16:54
Poodle,
Thanks for the breakdown.

saki1611
07-10-2007, 17:37
Originally posted by JBJ16
Situational awareness and professional "wits" or gulang sa labanan at araw-araw na buhay. These are the LEO/Mil. weapons 90% of the time, only 10% is actual weaponry and skills.

Most IPSC/IDPA shooters come from so called well-to-do and comfy lifestyles, not usually engaged it the nitty-gritty of street/jungle life; ergo, combat "wits" not practiced on a regular basis.

So IMO when SHTF comes, LEO/Mil shooters hands down!:thumbsup:

:thumbsup: i agree! you may out shoot cops in IPSC/IDPA matches but you can't out wit them, magulang kasi!:tongueout: :animlol:

isuzu
07-10-2007, 18:09
Originally posted by Allegra
Where did yu get these facts may I ask?
Kasi I get a lot of requests for training or supervising training for LEOs and I trained my city's swat team
My opinion is based on what I observe lang
( tip - dont mess around w/ the PSG! )

Rich and comfy lifestyle? Dun mga ako takot
Spoiled warfreaks whoknow how to shoot

IPSC can help in actual scenarios, but tactical or combat shooting is totally different. An example is that in IPSC, when we enter a room, we usually stand inside a "box" when we open the door. If the perp is waiting for you, he or she will just aim at the door and start shooting once the door opens. In combat shooting, once you open the door and enter a room, you should stay away from the door as quickly as possible and probably find a cover or engage targets.

There was an IPSC shooter who drove his jeepney part time, usually on Sundays, which is usually payroll day for farm workers. He lived in a mountainous town south of Bacolod and his jeepney was held up by three former CAFGUS turned holduppers, one of which was armed with an M16. They waited for the jeepney negotiate an uphill curve, and they were positioned in an elevated area. The perps fired warning shots when the jeep approached the area in an apparent attempt to stop the vehicle. He was armed with a FEG pistol loaded with Hydra Shoks. He went down the jeep and shot the perp holding the M16. The distance was about 15 meters. His first shot dropped the perp and his two companions ran away. He had the presence of mind and assessed the situation well. That made him survive the situation.

isuzu
07-10-2007, 18:17
Originally posted by Allegra
Rich and comfy lifestyle? Dun mga ako takot
Spoiled warfreaks whoknow how to shoot

In my previous post months ago, I told of a son of a sugar farmer in the suburbs of Cadiz City who fought more than 30 NPAs who entered their compound in an attempt to kill him and his deaf-mute sister. According to the locals, they saw at least 5 dead rebels being carried away when they decided it was too risky to prolong the firefight.

He was armed with an M1 Carbine with two long mags and a small bag of loose ammo. His sister reloaded for him (inspite of being hit in the butt). An electric fence also helped them.

He was kind enough not to shoot a young rebel (he said the kid was just about 13 years old); he just shot the ground in front of the kid and the kid ran away.

He was suffering from PTSD for a long time.

Again, presence of mind played a big role in this gentleman's survival.

Eye Cutter
07-10-2007, 18:51
as i've said over and over again, when owning a firearm for sd purposes, you must take the time to be proficient with it through constant practice!

and one such effective way to master your firearm is to try out shooting competitions. be it ipsc or idpa, merong role ang competition in your training.

HEAVY
07-10-2007, 20:28
i'm no expert but i do own a firearm.

i would think it sensible (and responsible) to practice with my firearm.

and that includes reloading!

'nuff said!

:)

Allegra
07-10-2007, 20:31
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
as i've said over and over again, when owning a firearm for sd purposes, you must take the time to be proficient with it through constant practice!

and one such effective way to master your firearm is to try out shooting competitions. be it ipsc or idpa, merong role ang competition in your training.


Kasi competition gives you the confidence in your ability to shoot
Tingnan mo mga ipsc shooters dito sa board ang yayabang parang sila nalang magaling ahehehe ( nandamay pa ng iba ahehehe )

Allegra
07-10-2007, 21:05
Originally posted by isuzu
In my previous post months ago, I told of a son of a sugar farmer in the suburbs of Cadiz City who fought more than 30 NPAs who entered their compound in an attempt to kill him and his deaf-mute sister. According to the locals, they saw at least 5 dead rebels being carried away when they decided it was too risky to prolong the firefight.

He was armed with an M1 Carbine with two long mags and a small bag of loose ammo. His sister reloaded for him (inspite of being hit in the butt). An electric fence also helped them.

He was kind enough not to shoot a young rebel (he said the kid was just about 13 years old); he just shot the ground in front of the kid and the kid ran away.

He was suffering from PTSD for a long time.

Again, presence of mind played a big role in this gentleman's survival.


well at least , it as a self defense situation
a few spoiled rich kids are asking for lessons sa shooting
I hear they have also been taken up boxing
Think of that as a menace to society hehe basaguleros w/ the skill sets and money to match
Tapos ang ptc

Poodle
07-11-2007, 00:44
Originally posted by saki1611
:thumbsup: i agree! you may out shoot cops in IPSC/IDPA matches but you can't out wit them, magulang kasi!:tongueout: :animlol:

On a one to one basis, it is possible to outshoot cops but if they are operating as a team, outshooting them may be next to impossible. I think one of the the reasons (aside from gulang - magulang talaga) why this is so is that as a group, they have the advantage of numbers and teamwork not to mention logistics. If the first responders are not so proficient in neutralizing the threat, they will eventually call SWAT in great numbers and sooner or later, the threat will be neutralized. Moreover, as an organization, the PNP would naturally gravitate to developing doctrines in the art and science of gunfighting using pistols with their accumulated experience.

There is an issue before of whether selective fire is better than rapid fire. I believe that at the start of an engagement, it would be better to lay down a large volume of fire in the general direction of the threat the purposes of which are: 1] to neutralize the threat; 2] to suppress fire coming from them. After things settle down, then the volume of fire can be moderated and more selective, that is, if the engagement is of long duration.

Engagement between civilians would most probably be of short duration (lasting seconds), not getting past the "start of engagement phase" so it might be best to lay down as heavy a volume of "relatively accurate" fire (if there is such a thing) as possible with a view to survival or withdrawal from the gunfight zone. If the engagement is protracted, then selective fire (and may a merciful God help you - we are allowed only 50 rounds of carry ammo).

Eye Cutter
07-11-2007, 01:19
kung sabagay, normally we bring 1 or 2 mags plus the one in the pistol and 1 in the pipe! kung g17 dala mo, that's 52-55 rds of ammo on you! (if with +2 base pads)

you're my idol, father P! pistol packing pater poodle! hahaha!

see you Friday sa gunshow!

saki1611
07-11-2007, 01:36
one of the rules of thumb in any kind of battle, is to never ever under estimate your opponent. you might have all the guts and confidence to shoot accurately against your opponent/s but you might not have the idea what's their capabilities. there's a possibility that they might be a better shooter than you, to fight back is to apply the tactics you have learned and practiced. it's really easy to shoot a static target and doesn't shoot back, but a target that shoots back and tactically knows how to maneuver is a very different story.
i will not put my life at stake with over confidence than safety... ang gulang! :upeyes:

Poodle
07-11-2007, 03:13
Originally posted by saki1611
one of the rules of thumb in any kind of battle, is to never ever under estimate your opponent. you might have all the guts and confidence to shoot accurately against your opponent/s but you might not have the idea what's their capabilities. there's a possibility that they might be a better shooter than you, to fight back is to apply the tactics you have learned and practiced. it's really easy to shoot a static target and doesn't shoot back, but a target that shoots back and tactically knows how to maneuver is a very different story.
i will not put my life at stake with over confidence than safety... ang gulang! :upeyes:

True. Gulangan talaga dahil buhay nakasalalay. Mas maganda nga yatang magdala ng 33 round glock mag bilang extra mag tapos me naka-load na 17 rounder. Ang haba ng 33 rounder, parang baseball bat din yun pag naubusan ng bala. Maganda siguro na aside from the PTC me PTT din para me 50 rounds na nakasubo sa PTC tapos me 300 rounds na ammo nung PTT, total 350. Joke only.

HEAVY
07-11-2007, 03:23
and on the initial subject of reloads (tactical or otherwise)?

practice it or don't practice it?

to me the answer seems obvious.

:thumbsup:

Poodle
07-11-2007, 03:24
Originally posted by HEAVY
and on the initial subject of reloads (tactical or otherwise)?

practice it or don't practice it?

to me the answer seems obvious.

:thumbsup:

Practice siyempre. Familiarization. Bili na ako ng 33 rounder tapos practice din ako dun. :wavey:

Poodle
07-11-2007, 03:26
Off topic pero what about shooting on the move? Do you practice it?

saki1611
07-11-2007, 04:22
Originally posted by Poodle
Off topic pero what about shooting on the move? Do you practice it?

i do, though the cons is you are exposing yourself to your target/opponent. who knows, you might be needing it in real life. shooting on the move is great for covering (best with assault rifle in auto or burst mode) moving from one cover to another, withdrawing, covering your partner and a lot more...

weedman
07-11-2007, 04:45
pardon my ignorance

but whats tactical and speed reloading???

saki1611
07-11-2007, 05:14
Originally posted by weedman
pardon my ignorance

but whats tactical and speed reloading???

tactical reload - you change your magazine while on cover and saving the replaced magazine for future use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z38yTHDDLw

speed reload - changing the magazine as fast as you can and leaving the replaced magazine behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuOOeq8uki4

Allegra
07-11-2007, 07:58
Originally posted by Poodle
Off topic pero what about shooting on the move? Do you practice it?

Sigurado mas importante siya kesa sa speed reloading father hehe

In case you want to practice it
Duck walk or short heel to toe steps, try to keep it smooth
The feet should always point in the direction where yu are headed while your torso swivels towards the target ( parang tangke )
I like to keep my elbows bent pero kanya kanya

Parang gumaan pakiramdam ko

*********************************

Since a lot of people really want to sling a lot of lead towards a truckload of badguys might as well ituro na rin ang sfeed reload
The best I've seen is the FRI style nila Steve Silverman, i love it kasi it's so simple
Nothing is idiot proof pero you can do this in the dark,stressed out or scared syetless

when your mag runs out , dump the mag and ilagay ang gunarm elbow sa tagiliran, yung upper arm parallel sa katawan
Yung weakhand grabs the fresh mag from the pouch, then salpak mo rin yung elbow mo sa tagilran mo just like the other arm

now w/ both your elbows at your sides all you have to do next is bring your hands together ( I hope your arms are the same length! )
Simpleng simple kahit sa dilim or nanginginig sa nerbyos braso mo
No need to look at your gun
You eyes should be looking at the threat or your surroundings, hindi sa baril

It wont work sa ipsc kasi mahirap tumakbo
otoh, ipsc reloads wont work 100% sa totohanan kasi it involves too fine motorskills

the SAF guys I taught this to were so excited , hindi na pumutok , puro chenj mak nalang gusto gawin

kapagod yan , mas gusto ko pa mag-bike

jerrytrini
07-11-2007, 08:21
I did once after the my training and that was it. All beat cops had to go through it including, running with full rig, engage multiple targets, do pull ups, engage more targets. Try shooting with your heart beating so fast, pulse rate of a train and sweat in your eyes then more targets and the worst part was the cadre of instructors yelling, playing loud music to distract you.

ilocano
07-11-2007, 09:07
Originally posted by Allegra


*********************************

Since a lot of people really want to sling a lot of lead towards a truckload of badguys might as well ituro na rin ang sfeed reload
The best I've seen is the FRI style nila Steve Silverman, i love it kasi it's so simple
Nothing is idiot proof pero you can do this in the dark,stressed out or scared syetless

when your mag runs out , dump the mag and ilagay ang gunarm elbow sa tagiliran, yung upper arm parallel sa katawan
Yung weakhand grabs the fresh mag from the pouch, then salpak mo rin yung elbow mo sa tagilran mo just like the other arm

now w/ both your elbows at your sides all you have to do next is bring your hands together ( I hope your arms are the same length! )
Simpleng simple kahit sa dilim or nanginginig sa nerbyos braso mo
No need to look at your gun
You eyes should be looking at the threat or your surroundings, hindi sa baril

It wont work sa ipsc kasi mahirap tumakbo
otoh, ipsc reloads wont work 100% sa totohanan kasi it involves too fine motorskills

the SAF guys I taught this to were so excited , hindi na pumutok , puro chenj mak nalang gusto gawin

kapagod yan , mas gusto ko pa mag-bike

master allegra, penge naman ng demo bidyu, yung ikaw ang starring!:thumbsup:

Allegra
07-11-2007, 09:23
Lots of videos kay Laiza sa gunshow
Yung sakin nasa quiapo

Poodle
07-11-2007, 17:35
Originally posted by Allegra


the SAF guys I taught this to were so excited , hindi na pumutok , puro chenj mak nalang gusto gawin

kapagod yan , mas gusto ko pa mag-bike

Kapagod nga. Mas gusto ko pa mag-treadmill. Try ko mamya gabi, pag madilim.

isuzu
07-11-2007, 19:02
Originally posted by jerrytrini
I did once after the my training and that was it. All beat cops had to go through it including, running with full rig, engage multiple targets, do pull ups, engage more targets. Try shooting with your heart beating so fast, pulse rate of a train and sweat in your eyes then more targets and the worst part was the cadre of instructors yelling, playing loud music to distract you.

Very similar to Joe Lopez-Vito's course. We had to run the oval (400m) at UNO-R with our rig, go downstairs to the indoor range, read the instructions and engage the targets.:)

atmarcella
07-13-2007, 01:24
knowing how to shoot is only half the battle won....

knowing how to look for and utilize cover is the other half:supergrin: :thumbsup: ;)

TTPower
07-13-2007, 20:35
Originally posted by Allegra
Where did yu get these facts may I ask?
Kasi I get a lot of requests for training or supervising training for LEOs and I trained my city's swat team
My opinion is based on what I observe lang
( tip - dont mess around w/ the PSG! )

Rich and comfy lifestyle? Dun mga ako takot
Spoiled warfreaks whoknow how to shoot

+1
i was in crame 1 time, i witness a pnp firearm proficiency test. some of the cops were shooting dirt from 15-20 yards. as in dirt.... all they were hitting was the ground. i asked my friend who works for FED and all he said was kulang talaga sa training ang pnp natin. no budget for ammos. all pnp who are issued a firearm are only given 50 rounds each per year including na yung nasa firearm and extra mag so that leaves u more or less 25-30 round to practice.

like Allegra said matakot ka sa rich spoiled warfreaks na 1000 rounds magpractice a week :)

atmarcella
07-14-2007, 22:22
Originally posted by atmarcella

knowing how to look for and utilize cover is the other half:supergrin: :thumbsup: ;)

i think this could also be called "gulang":supergrin:

Poodle
07-15-2007, 04:09
Originally posted by TTPower
+1
i was in crame 1 time, i witness a pnp firearm proficiency test. some of the cops were shooting dirt from 15-20 yards. as in dirt.... all they were hitting was the ground. i asked my friend who works for FED and all he said was kulang talaga sa training ang pnp natin. no budget for ammos. all pnp who are issued a firearm are only given 50 rounds each per year including na yung nasa firearm and extra mag so that leaves u more or less 25-30 round to practice.

like Allegra said matakot ka sa rich spoiled warfreaks na 1000 rounds magpractice a week :)

True, same thing happened when I was in the range, only there were two cops who shot there. One was a shooter and he was good. The other one was hitting the ground and he was shooting from 15 meters away. There is no substitute for practice.

saki1611
07-17-2007, 07:05
Originally posted by Allegra
Agree except that I would bet on an IPSC shooter vs 98% cops or military :)

i'd bet on cops 101% in real thing! no matter how good you are in man vs man, cops wouldn't fight that way. cops would always fight in advantage way whether alone or in group. kaunting gulang di puro yabang...:supergrin:

9MX
07-17-2007, 07:17
Originally posted by saki1611
kaunting gulang.....

kaunti? pahambol ka pa:animlol:

saki1611
07-17-2007, 07:21
Originally posted by 9MX
kaunti? pahambol ka pa:animlol:

i'm so proud of my humility...:tongueout:

Allegra
07-17-2007, 07:41
Originally posted by saki1611
i'd bet on cops 101% in real thing! no matter how good you are in man vs man, cops wouldn't fight that way. cops would always fight in advantage way whether alone or in group. kaunting gulang di puro yabang...:supergrin:

Could be
One almost accidentally killed me , training pa lang yun

saki1611
07-17-2007, 07:51
Originally posted by Allegra
Could be
One almost accidentally killed me , training pa lang yun

hope it was really an accident.:shocked: was it? :supergrin:

jerrytrini
07-17-2007, 07:57
We call it "Tactical Advantage" or "Position of Advantage".
Because we have to assess the background as well; innocent bystanders, egress etc.

Allegra
07-17-2007, 07:58
Originally posted by saki1611
hope it was really an accident.:shocked: was it? :supergrin:

hahaha yeah
I'm actually quite charming sa personal

saki1611
07-17-2007, 08:02
Originally posted by jerrytrini
We call it "Tactical Advantage" or "Position of Advantage".
Because we have to assess the background as well; innocent bystanders, egress etc.

+1:thumbsup:

Poodle
07-17-2007, 08:04
Originally posted by Allegra
Could be
One almost accidentally killed me , training pa lang yun

Paano po nangyari?

saki1611
07-17-2007, 08:11
Originally posted by Allegra
hahaha yeah
I'm actually quite charming sa personal

mukha nga... :supergrin:

i have to admit, there are cops too that don't give much importance in firearms proficiency, and safety as well. as the old saying goes "it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks". yet a lot of our PNP's personnel today are well trained, and i can consider myself among them...:supergrin:

Allegra
07-17-2007, 08:13
Originally posted by Poodle
Paano po nangyari?


Someone messing around w/ his gun while he was behind me

9MX
07-17-2007, 08:30
Originally posted by saki1611
mukha nga... :supergrin:

i have to admit, there are cops too that don't give much importance in firearms proficiency, and safety as well. as the old saying goes "it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks". yet a lot of our PNP's personnel today are well trained, and i can consider myself among them...:supergrin:

siyete pecados, how hambol(g):animlol:

but i myself witnessed how well trained you are, ambilis mo magreload ng kanin, ala pang 2 mins, naka 2 cups ka na:tongueout:

9MX
07-17-2007, 08:32
Originally posted by saki1611
+1:thumbsup:

kaya pala lagi ka sa gitna ng mesa umupo pag kainan, tactical advantage:rofl:

jerrytrini
07-17-2007, 09:42
Cops will never go hungry. Right Saki? Every move made by any cop is to his advantage anywhere, anytime. You guys are right, "Ma gulang kami".
You have to remember that a normal person would run away and fast from trouble, whereas, cops run towards it.

saki1611
07-17-2007, 10:05
Originally posted by jerrytrini
Cops will never go hungry. Right Saki? Every move made by any cop is to his advantage anywhere, anytime. You guys are right, "Ma gulang kami".
You have to remember that a normal person would run away and fast from trouble, whereas, cops run towards it.

very well said sir!:thumbsup: it's good that civilians have option to withdraw from any threat, but to cops, we can not. otherwise we'll be charged of cowardice.

New_comer
07-17-2007, 10:12
Tactical vs speed...

I'd say learn each type's pros/cons, and use whatever is applicable. ;) Both seem useful for distinct situations.

windplex
07-17-2007, 10:16
In true SD situations one loose fine motor skills among other physiological changes that work against making a tactical change under pressure.

So unless you are in the highly unlikely situation of true cover you must speed reload to save your life.

I don't think we will be hearing from tactical reloaders post a real event. Thier opponents will keep shooting and hey will fumble the magazines and drop the full one or fail to seat the new magazine and too much time will elapse; any of which will allow the bad guy to kill you.

I mus agree with the fellow who said that anything with the word "tactical" in it must be the right "tactical pc" thing to do while typing on your computer about real life situations;)

Allegra
07-17-2007, 10:29
agree to disagree
Baka masyado lang ako naniniwala sa mga kwento ng mga shooters sakin

Pero curious din ako , anyone know an instance where a civilian shooter that died in a gunfight?
Parang sa mga kwento wala pa yatang natalo hehe

huntthehunter
07-17-2007, 10:31
pretty new here, but a couple of interesting observations. Well, interesting to me, YMMV.

I practice both types of reloads, but would guess that in reality would likely shoot to slide lock, dump the empty and get on with it (if not overly perforated.) If able to take cover, would probably do a "tactical" reload to top off.

I read a couple of posts about FOF versus SD scenarios. It seems that any self defense scenario requiring a gun is a force-on-force scenario.

Different schools/instructors teach different methods, and different people have different opinions. I try to learn as many things as possible, because I cannot predict what will happen should I need to use my pistol in self defense.

Allegra
07-17-2007, 10:36
Originally posted by windplex
In true SD situations one loose fine motor skills among other physiological changes that work against making a tactical change under pressure.

So unless you are in the highly unlikely situation of true cover you must speed reload to save your life.

I don't think we will be hearing from tactical reloaders post a real event. Thier opponents will keep shooting and hey will fumble the magazines and drop the full one or fail to seat the new magazine and too much time will elapse; any of which will allow the bad guy to kill you.

I mus agree with the fellow who said that anything with the word "tactical" in it must be the right "tactical pc" thing to do while typing on your computer about real life situations;)

Good post!
Regarding the Speed reload , do you know of any documented gunfight between civilians where a speed reload saved the day?
I'm still trying to find one

ilocano
07-17-2007, 12:38
Originally posted by Allegra
Good post!
Regarding the Speed reload , do you know of any documented gunfight between civilians where a speed reload saved the day?
I'm still trying to find one

A couple of years back, i figured myself too close to a shooting match ( in one iskinita in San Andres Bukid :)). And guess what, I was so scared like hell.. makes me wonder- if **** hit the fan that time would my limited skills in IPSC saved me? Maybe.. I got down from my car with just my pistol, things happened so fast I didnt have a chance to pick up a spare mag. Tactical or speed? if youre lucky to even have the time to think about it while youre at "it" then that could make a whole lot of difference i guess. Or maybe not.

low profile
07-17-2007, 19:48
Meron akong alam na shooter na natalo at namatay. pero alam ko eh ang kalaban niya sarili niya. (suicide)

condolence to the person if you know.

windplex
07-17-2007, 19:54
Originally posted by Allegra
agree to disagree
Baka masyado lang ako naniniwala sa mga kwento ng mga shooters sakin

Pero curious din ako , anyone know an instance where a civilian shooter that died in a gunfight?
Parang sa mga kwento wala pa yatang natalo hehe

Well Allegro, please come back when you learn to speak english:) We don't have a clue as to what you said and it is not cool to speak in code it is just plain sad.

Allegra
07-17-2007, 20:00
Originally posted by windplex
Well Allegro, please come back when you learn to speak english:) We don't have a clue as to what you said and it is not cool to speak in code it is just plain sad.


If you scroll down a little bit more , you'd find out I wwas replying to a different person ( who speaks the same code :)) about a slightly different topic

windplex
07-17-2007, 20:03
Originally posted by huntthehunter
pretty new here, but a couple of interesting observations. Well, interesting to me, YMMV.

I practice both types of reloads, but would guess that in reality would likely shoot to slide lock, dump the empty and get on with it (if not overly perforated.) If able to take cover, would probably do a "tactical" reload to top off.

I read a couple of posts about FOF versus SD scenarios. It seems that any self defense scenario requiring a gun is a force-on-force scenario.

Different schools/instructors teach different methods, and different people have different opinions. I try to learn as many things as possible, because I cannot predict what will happen should I need to use my pistol in self defense.

I compete in both IPSIC/USPSA and IDPA so that I get practice in both kinds of mag changes. I plan to compete in the limited 10 category of uspsa to get my number of mag changes way up.

I do believe one should be proficient in both tactical and speed reloads. Absolutly nothing beats muscle memory!

I also shoot a regular glock, g23 now that it arrived rather than a "race gun" so I am practicing with my real weapon and not a space gun.

I do however fully understand that it is a game and do understand the gamer's point of view and why the go that way. Had a chance to try it and boy is it nice to shoot gamer 9mm loads out of a G34 with a super trigger! I shot like a pro that day! But the penetration would have been more like a 380 in my estimation or less. But it was satisfying so I do understand gaming it too and no hard feelings to the gamers of the competitions.

Did the same when I club raced my cars. Raced them stock. Learned how to drive them. By the way highly reccomend it.

theTactician
07-18-2007, 00:00
besides being tactical in a real gunfight, we always have to bear in mind that we have to shoot and shoot until there is no more threat. its not overkill but its just to make sure that the threat is neutralized.

saki1611
07-18-2007, 01:31
Originally posted by Allegra
agree to disagree
Baka masyado lang ako naniniwala sa mga kwento ng mga shooters sakin

Pero curious din ako , anyone know an instance where a civilian shooter that died in a gunfight?
Parang sa mga kwento wala pa yatang natalo hehe

it's great there's none yet, and hopefully there won't be any... in true to life story, there are a lot of cops died in the line of duty, mostly not in a man to man duel. :sad: that is why we need to practice our guns with tactics and skill. i %101 agree with you that hitting your target/targets is the foremost important in gun handling, and nobody would definitely disagree on that but on gun self defense survival is the foremost important. yet the thread was a query about reloading, tactical or speed reload? reloading is just one of the aspects that is needed to learn and practice in gun self defense. take note "gun self defense" not IPSC and IDPA match, which on the other hand you can apply what you have practiced and to develop your skills under pressure.

theTactician
07-18-2007, 01:51
as erik lawrence would put it, "practice like youre training hard to fight".
i believe that the only advantage of tactical reload over speed reload is that you get to save some ammo while utilizing cover.

New_comer
07-18-2007, 04:04
The best, and perhaps, the only way you can simulate which is the better of the two is a gunfight in a "virtual" world... ;)

I 'died' plenty of times while I reloaded at the wrong place at the wrong time. But I 'survived' a lot of confrontations by switching to another weapon instead of reloading when the gun emptied. Also, topping off my gun during a lull seems to help outgun an opponent, when you do need firepower.

Nothing beats a continued onslaught, IMO. Lose this edge, lose your life. A reload at the wrong time usually isn't good for your 'health'.

How this would work in the real world, your guess is as good as mine.

:supergrin:

charlie-xray
07-18-2007, 07:28
Especially when I tried to spray and pray the BG with my M4 Carbine instead of tactically shooting them one bullet one kill, then don't pick up extra mags for it or even extra mags for my Desert Eagle then I'm dead in the later stage of it no ammo left. Whilst my sniper rifle is pretty useless in close quarters and with BG sparying me with AK's
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
excerpt from Shadow Ops Red Mercury PC Games :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



Originally posted by New_comer
The best, and perhaps, the only way you can simulate which is the better of the two is a gunfight in a "virtual" world... ;)

I 'died' plenty of times while I reloaded at the wrong place at the wrong time. But I 'survived' a lot of confrontations by switching to another weapon instead of reloading when the gun emptied. Also, topping off my gun during a lull seems to help outgun an opponent, when you do need firepower.

Nothing beats a continued onslaught, IMO. Lose this edge, lose your life. A reload at the wrong time usually isn't good for your 'health'.

How this would work in the real world, your guess is as good as mine.

:supergrin:

saki1611
07-18-2007, 08:04
:laughabove: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :laughabove:

New_comer
07-19-2007, 02:54
Originally posted by Allegra
Anyone knw a gunfight where reloads saved the day?

Here's a real life shootout where tactical reloading may not have been of any value. Your opponent has the chance to outflank you in a lull if you're not paying attention:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~```
1986 Miami shootout

Immediately after being forced off the road, Platt began firing the Mini-14 from the car, while Matix fired a single round from the shotgun. Matix was soon hit twice by the agents, and he was apparently knocked unconscious. He fired no more shots throughout the battle. Platt, however, had already injured two agents with the rifle.

Platt climbed out a car window, and was soon hit several times, yet he continued fighting, now firing a revolver. He also continued to use the rifle, despite injuries to his right hand and arm, and caused agents more injuries, including a shot to the neck.

Military-trained, Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they (so far uninjured) were using for cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing the rifle. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot another agent in the groin, and then killed Dove with two shots to the head. Platt himself had been hit six times at this point.

Platt entered Grogan and Dove's car, apparently attempting escape. He was joined by Matix, who had regained consciousness and crawled unseen to Platt's position.

The fight was ended by agent Edmundo Mireles, who, despite having been hit in the arm by Platt's opening shots, returned fire with his shotgun one-handed, then stood up and advanced directly towards the car, shooting six rounds of .38 Special from his revolver, hitting Matix three times and Platt twice. Both were finally killed.

Toxicology tests showed that the astounding abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gun shot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were completely drug- and alcohol-free at the time of their deaths.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As I mentioned kanina, it's possible that only a direct and continued onslaught can finish a fight. Hide and you lose advantage.

Hitting what you aim at obviously helps a lot. :supergrin:

HEAVY
07-19-2007, 03:34
...and having many guns.

a whole lot better than reloads.

PMMA97
07-19-2007, 03:48
Originally posted by windplex
Well Allegro, please come back when you learn to speak english:) We don't have a clue as to what you said and it is not cool to speak in code it is just plain sad.

Ang taray :supergrin:

What is the english of "taray"?

Back to topic!

JBJ16
07-19-2007, 04:48
Originally posted by jerrytrini
Cops will never go hungry. Right Saki? Every move made by any cop is to his advantage anywhere, anytime. You guys are right, "Ma gulang kami".
You have to remember that a normal person would run away and fast from trouble, whereas, cops run towards it. cops run towards it.

Oowwwws! But cops,(especially here in Metro Manila) do not always "run towards" trouble. I remember then the 15 man bank robbery crew armed with M16s and M14s operating in the Metro. Not a single cop run would respond and engage "towards" the bank vicinity. He he he! Thats where the "ma gulang" part is exercised prudently, I suppose! Peace man!:tongueout:

saki1611
07-19-2007, 06:21
Originally posted by JBJ16
cops run towards it.

Oowwwws! But cops,(especially here in Metro Manila) do not always "run towards" trouble. I remember then the 15 man bank robbery crew armed with M16s and M14s operating in the Metro. Not a single cop run would respond and engage "towards" the bank vicinity. He he he! Thats where the "ma gulang" part is exercised prudently, I suppose! Peace man!:tongueout:

you tell me if you're the good and honest cop, would you fight alone a group of 15 armed men with m16's and m14's? considering also you have a partner, do you think the two of you would be enough to engage the robbers? what are your options? there are a lot of factors to consider too why the police late in responding the calls, one thing is the robbery itself are well planned. there are even incidents that a well planned robbery only took less than a minute to accomplish. and usually mobiles that responded in time were being ambushed on it's way to the site and took the lives of its crew. please try to consider our comrades who died in the line of duty, it's not a joke. i must admit that there are scalawag cops, yet our job is not a joke.

saki1611
07-19-2007, 06:29
Originally posted by HEAVY
...and having many guns.

a whole lot better than reloads.

exactly! why need a reload if you have many guns! :thumbsup: both the police and perpetrators did not only use one gun...

jerrytrini
07-19-2007, 07:21
When you feel you are outgunned, outnumbered, then re-assess, re-think, re-group.

saki1611
07-19-2007, 07:34
Originally posted by jerrytrini
When you feel you are outgunned, outnumbered, then re-assess, re-think, re-group.

%100:thumbsup:

Allegra
07-19-2007, 08:13
Fascinating no one has mentioned a civilian incident where a reload saved the day

Poodle
07-19-2007, 08:20
Personally, I think that one lesson that can also be gleaned from the Miami Shootout is the desirability of using .45 cal pistols? Not to denigrate the 9 mm parabellum - I just think that bigger is better, everything else (like shooting ability) being equal. The FBI agents were good shooters as attested by the forensic specialist.

"Dr. Anderson concludes his forensic analysis of the gunfight by pointing out the remarkable accuracy of the FBI agents in achieving solids hit on both Platt and Matix, despite the fact that the suspects were obscured by deep shade, dust and gunsmoke. He provides specific examples of accurate shooting by five of the eight Agents involved: Grogan, McNeill, Dove, Risner and possibly Orrantia."

I just wonder how they would have fared had they been using .45 caliber pistols (the .40 cal was not yet available then if I'm not mistaken).


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986

Also, I think that prudence is the better part of valor. If I were a cop facing multiple armed men brandishing high powered weapons, I will not engage given a choice (unless my name is Die Hard 4). I'll call for backup.

My college brod is the officer in charge of security in one Makati bank that was held up by multiple armed men some time ago. He said that there is a standing agreement with the police on not engaging bank robbers while they are inside the bank. It's bad news to have clients getting shot inside the bank.

Poodle
07-19-2007, 08:35
Originally posted by Allegra
Fascinating no one has mentioned a civilian incident where a reload saved the day

I have not heard of a civilian incident where a reload saved the day. But I'll still practice both tac and speed reloads. Might come in handy.

I'd also like to practice shooting on the move. Duck walks et al from my ROTC days. And most especially shooting while moving away from a threat. There are at least two modes of doing it: [1] Shooting while moving backwards facing the target and [2] running like hell away from the target and shooting backwards at the target. Baka lang di payagan ito sa Range - me pagka-180 kasi.

Allegra
07-19-2007, 09:06
Originally posted by Poodle
I have not heard of a civilian incident where a reload saved the day. But I'll still practice both tac and speed reloads. Might come in handy.

I'd also like to practice shooting on the move. Duck walks et al from my ROTC days. And most especially shooting while moving away from a threat. There are at least two modes of doing it: [1] Shooting while moving backwards facing the target and [2] running like hell away from the target and shooting backwards at the target. Baka lang di payagan ito sa Range - me pagka-180 kasi.



Father where did you get this info sa moving away sa threat?
Sa 1 , your likely to stumble and your still in his line of fire
Baka mas maganda to move quickly sa side , to get away from his line of sight/fire
Sa 2 , you cant run fast while shooting accrately. Might as well pick one

Poodle
07-19-2007, 16:28
Originally posted by Allegra
Father where did you get this info sa moving away sa threat?
Sa 1 , your likely to stumble and your still in his line of fire
Baka mas maganda to move quickly sa side , to get away from his line of sight/fire
Sa 2 , you cant run fast while shooting accrately. Might as well pick one

Oo nga. Baka nga running away muna. Me nakita akong thread along those lines.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/shootmv_070507/index.html

Meron din about sights.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/combativep_061207/index.html

HEAVY
07-19-2007, 20:56
Originally posted by Allegra
Fascinating no one has mentioned a civilian incident where a reload saved the day

stats or no stats, i'm still going to practice my reloads.

and so should everyone, i think.

i'm not going to bet my life on statistics or the lack of it.

"you don't need to practice reloads, you'll never need to reload in a real gunfight. the stats say no civilian had to."

hmm...i'm really not buying it.


:) no disrespect meant, just disagreeing. :)

Allegra
07-20-2007, 00:11
Originally posted by HEAVY
stats or no stats, i'm still going to practice my reloads.

and so should everyone, i think.

i'm not going to bet my life on statistics or the lack of it.

"you don't need to practice reloads, you'll never need to reload in a real gunfight. the stats say no civilian had to."

hmm...i'm really not buying it.


:) no disrespect meant, just disagreeing. :)


I've never said not to practice it :)
I've always interviewed some of the people I've taught , and I found out konting bala lang nagagamit ( hindi kasama ang police raids o military operations )
I just think the likelyhood of you ever using it in defense would be low
Just like hi cap mags , parang psychological lang advantage nun

Sa fiesta nga , nothing excited the lasenggos more than seeing a very fast speed reload

HEAVY
07-20-2007, 00:24
Originally posted by Allegra
I've never said not to practice it :)
I've always interviewed some of the people I've taught , and I found out konting bala lang nagagamit ( hindi kasama ang police raids o military operations )
I just think the likelyhood of you ever using it in defense would be low
Just like hi cap mags , parang psychological lang advantage nun

Sa fiesta nga , nothing excited the lasenggos more than seeing a very fast speed reload

:) must've misinterpreted your posts, sir. i apologize.

i found it very strange that someone would imply (i thought) that we didn't need to practice reloads because of what we "know" (stats-wise) happens in gunfights.

shoot safe, sir!

(and practice reloads...hehehe. just kidding. don't shoot me. :supergrin: )

Allegra
07-20-2007, 00:45
it's the same argument laban sa revolver
People dont like it kasi 6 lang laman and everone wants a hicap mag
Kasi psychologically , it's comforting

New_comer
07-20-2007, 00:58
Take Sonny Parson's case for instance...

When he freed himself from being bound, he took his 45 and ran after the BG's...

IIRC, Sonny shot 2, 1 patay agad. Yung nasa jeep, may revolver lumaban and a firefight ensued. No hits to either, nagkaubusan ng bala. Nagkaharapan, knifefight na... Sonny got hold of the weapon, and unguarded throat and swish!!! Fight ends...

No reloads happened. And I don't believe Sonny would have thought of bringing an extra mag at that time. Though on retrospection, that might have swung the fight extremely in his favor. Hindi yung nag-50-50 pa sa huli... ;)

HEAVY
07-20-2007, 01:38
Originally posted by New_comer
Take Sonny Parson's case for instance...

When he freed himself from being bound, he took his 45 and ran after the BG's...

IIRC, Sonny shot 2, 1 patay agad. Yung nasa jeep, may revolver lumaban and a firefight ensued. No hits to either, nagkaubusan ng bala. Nagkaharapan, knifefight na... Sonny got hold of the weapon, and unguarded throat and swish!!! Fight ends...

No reloads happened. And I don't believe Sonny would have thought of bringing an extra mag at that time. Though on retrospection, that might have swung the fight extremely in his favor. Hindi yung nag-50-50 pa sa huli... ;)

a reload would have been useful.

both for mr. parsons and the bg.

if either one had a reload, it would not have gone to the knife fight,i think.

the guy with the reload would be in the extreme advantage.

correct?

New_comer
07-20-2007, 01:46
Though if it were Sonny who had the reload, he has only several seconds to realize he has one, and put it in before the knifewielder could get him.

Again, presence of mind counts under such intense life-threatening circumstance. To think na ex military din si Sonny would have paved the way for his success in hand-to-hand, kaya siguro di na sya nag-abala pang magdala ng extra mag, topped with the fierce anger he must be feeling at that time.

PMMA97
07-20-2007, 02:09
Originally posted by New_comer
Take Sonny Parson's case for instance...

When he freed himself from being bound, he took his 45 and ran after the BG's...

IIRC, Sonny shot 2, 1 patay agad. Yung nasa jeep, may revolver lumaban and a firefight ensued. No hits to either, nagkaubusan ng bala. Nagkaharapan, knifefight na... Sonny got hold of the weapon, and unguarded throat and swish!!! Fight ends...




The only thing we are certain of is he went after his assailants and killed them. How?

Yun ang kwento nya...parang pelikula :supergrin:

Allegra
07-20-2007, 11:13
Originally posted by HEAVY
a reload would have been useful.

both for mr. parsons and the bg.

if either one had a reload, it would not have gone to the knife fight,i think.

the guy with the reload would be in the extreme advantage.

correct?

No

the person hitting his target has the extreme advantage

assuming the story is true
but kudos to mr parsons , astig pa rin

New_comer
07-20-2007, 11:25
Originally posted by PMMA97
The only thing we are certain of is he went after his assailants and killed them. How?

Yun ang kwento nya...parang pelikula :supergrin:

Well, if you really want to know, that guy who survived the fight even managed to escape from the hospital where he received treatment. He's out there somewhere, unless... :shocked:

If only the media can track him down to tell us how the hell he got plugged in the chest (2x?) while riding that jeepney... moving target and all those innocents surrounding him.

Sonny must have been a pretty good shot to be able to pull that off. He shoots IPSC btw at Armscor once in a while, so skill must not be an issue.

Yung knife fight ang interesting, but dead men tell no tales. ;)

atmarcella
07-20-2007, 19:44
ex-military si sonny??

Poodle
07-20-2007, 23:20
Originally posted by atmarcella
ex-military si sonny??

According to Sonny himself ex-PC daw siya. Lefty siya at .40 cal ang kanyang weapon of choice.

HEAVY
07-21-2007, 02:42
Originally posted by Allegra
No

the person hitting his target has the extreme advantage

assuming the story is true
but kudos to mr parsons , astig pa rin

you may not have read my post properly, sir allegra.

they both ran dry said the post before mine, so i said if one had a reload, that one would have the advantage.


of course the one who hits will have the advantage. that's quite obvious. if either one hit, there would be no need for a reload even, but they didn't hit each other and they ran dry, so at that point hitting the target is already a moot point. (no, in fact a reload would allow you another chance to hit your target, correct?)

again, the story says they both ran dry. i contend that at that point, whoever had a reload would have the advantage.

another obvious thing. to me, at least.

charlie-xray
07-21-2007, 02:50
Tactical reload or Speed reload as long as you hit your target that's the bottomline.

You know tac reload and practice speed reload a lot, but can't hit the target from the draw then it's useless (S... did not hit the fan yet).

You know tac reload and practice speed reload a lot, but can't hit the target then it's useless (SHTF already).

Di bale sana, If you have a save/load function in real life wherein if you die you could just reload the whole thing and shoot again :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Bottomline for me in this discussion, PREPAREDNESS, nuff said.

Eye Cutter
07-21-2007, 02:51
... i have my reservations regarding the sonny parsons' incident...

yun lang...

JBJ16
07-21-2007, 04:20
Originally posted by charlie-xray
Tactical reload or Speed reload as long as you hit your target that's the bottomline.

....... but can't hit the target from the draw then it's useless.

....Bottomline for me in this discussion, PREPAREDNESS, nuff said.

From the draw? That means gun was not in hand at the moment of the initiation of the encounter, hence necessitating a draw. It means, the enemy already has the advantage of element of surprise and you were just reacting "from the draw". PREPAREDNESS which necessitates engagement from the draw is not true preparedness. Preparedness means being able to anticipate an opponents body language, positioning, and moves, with your gun in hand and shooting opponent from an ambush point, dead . . .

That's why I defer to LEO/Military people when it comes to actual combat, they dont envision cowboy stuff,they dont listen to the timer's "beep" then engage, they initiate encounters from their prepositioned and overwhelming advantage any way you look at it....just my 2 petots!:)

charlie-xray
07-21-2007, 04:57
..

New_comer
07-21-2007, 05:54
Originally posted by charlie-xray
Tactical reload or Speed reload as long as you hit your target that's the bottomline.

You know tac reload and practice speed reload a lot, but can't hit the target from the draw then it's useless.

Di bale sana, If you have a save/load function in real life wherein if you die you could just reload the whole thing and shoot again :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Bottomline for me in this discussion, PREPAREDNESS, nuff said. Had you removed the underlined, I would have agreed with you entirely...

Topic involves reloading, so sh%8 had already hit the fan... ;)

Original topic
Tactical reload versus speed reload

In real life combat situations, which would you prefer? tactical reload? or speed reload? forget about paper targets or steel poppers that dont shoot back, and you need cover as badly as a good sight picture in a situation where you're indeed under fire, which type of reload would you rather do?

charlie-xray
07-21-2007, 06:02
Oo nga ano, dumb me..:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: just watched Collateral again maybe that's why.

Originally posted by New_comer
Had you removed the underlined, I would have agreed with you entirely...

Topic involves reloading, so sh%8 had already hit the fan... ;)

Allegra
07-21-2007, 17:49
Originally posted by HEAVY
you may not have read my post properly, sir allegra.

they both ran dry said the post before mine, so i said if one had a reload, that one would have the advantage.


of course the one who hits will have the advantage. that's quite obvious. if either one hit, there would be no need for a reload even, but they didn't hit each other and they ran dry, so at that point hitting the target is already a moot point. (no, in fact a reload would allow you another chance to hit your target, correct?)

again, the story says they both ran dry. i contend that at that point, whoever had a reload would have the advantage.

another obvious thing. to me, at least.

again assuming the story is true
they are lucky they both ran dry at the same time , if not I dont think he'll have time to teload before he gets plugged
Read what Jerrytrini posted above when you aoutnumeberd or outgunned
Teka, how do you know the other guy has really run out of ammo?
If you were n that position , would you suddenly rush the bg ?
Good grief , now that I'm discussing this , the more it saounds na hindi totoo

anyway , kanya kanya
anyoe know of other examples?

Allegra
07-21-2007, 18:48
Mejo vague nga yung tanong ko pala so I'll change it bka we'll get more info

Does anyone know of a civilian SD situation where someone was killed because he ran out of ammo?
Sguro naman meron

JBJ16
07-21-2007, 19:01
Originally posted by Allegra
Mejo vague nga yung tanong ko pala so I'll change it bka we'll get more info

Does anyone know of a civilian SD situation where someone was killed because he ran out of ammo?
Sguro naman meron

More likely a civilian got killed , not because he/she ran out of ammo/reload, but because he didn't have a gun in the 1st place when SHTF.

Or in the case of several jeep/bus hold-up scenarios, the BG got the drop on who was "carrying" that's why at the moment of the draw, a stab wound to the neck/shoulder juncture was all it took to neutralize the good guy with a concealed FA.

It means, the advantage was in the initial "intelligence" gathering by th BG. One look at people and these BG can assess immediately who is armed and not. Matutunog at magugulang din mga BG na ito. One develops these "thing" for assesing others if you are constantly "on-the-ground", meaning with a city crowd, not in your car, while you yourself are "packing" heat. Just my 1 cent from personnal experience. :thumbsup:

New_comer
07-21-2007, 19:30
There's one video clip ABSCBN showed mga four years ago, a cop accosting a guy relieving himself on a sidewalk.

Cop pulls out gun on guy (1911 ata yun, chromed pa) mga 5m apart sila, Guy reacts vehemently, Cop shoots at Guy, intentional miss or not, Guy pulls out knife and charges, Cop shoots some more, backpedals and stumbles to the ground, Guy pounces on fallen Cop, slashing here and there, Cop's gun emptied, arms flailing and kicking helplessly against murderous Guy... only a miracle can save him now. :shocked:

Miracle happens! Off-duty cop#2 passes by, shoots Guy, Guy falls. Lucky fallen Cop takes off with both arms gutted here and there. But he's alive. :supergrin:

Would a reload have helped in that situation? I don't think so. :upeyes:

Lesson: Pull out gun, be ready to give massive hurt on the other guy right from the get-go. Never, ever, hesitate. ;)

Allegra
07-22-2007, 03:54
That's the point I'm trying to make
Tingnan nyo what really happens in a fight
The first shot is more omportant than how many ammo you have
Do you have time to reload befoe you're shot or stabbed?
So what should you do if you run out of ammo?
Instead of standing there doing you ultra speedy reload while you get your butt sliced/blown off , baka dapat iba gawin mo

hehe la lang pinapasarap lang ang kwentuhan
what do i know about tactics hehe

New_comer
07-22-2007, 05:01
I guess its time to sum up our learnings so far. Feel free to add to the following:
[list=1]
Never, ever, hesitate.
Your shots must count, and count your shots
When outnumbered, re-assess, re-evaluate before you re-engage
Magulang kami! In short, CHEAT!
Practice, practice, practice
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement
For longer life, please use the john
[/list=1]

charlie-xray
07-22-2007, 05:23
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: #7 mahal ang kidney treatment and dialysis!!!

Originally posted by New_comer
I guess its time to sum up our learnings so far. Feel free to add to the following:
[list=1]
Never, ever, hesitate.
Your shots must count, and count your shots
When outnumbered, re-assess, re-evaluate before you re-engage
Magulang kami! In short, CHEAT!
Practice, practice, practice
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement
For longer life, please use the john
[/list=1]

Allegra
07-22-2007, 08:34
In talking w/ a few LEOs and civilians who have been in more than 1 fight and won all, I didnt see extraordinary shooting skill o tactics ( exept for those who compete )
I was surprised most didnt know how to do a mag change
The only similarities nakita ko sa lahat was handa talaga sila pumatay

yan masarap sa teaching shooting sa filifins, you meet intersting people , who needs friendster

HEAVY
07-22-2007, 19:49
Originally posted by New_comer
There's one video clip ABSCBN showed mga four years ago, a cop accosting a guy relieving himself on a sidewalk.

Cop pulls out gun on guy (1911 ata yun, chromed pa) mga 5m apart sila, Guy reacts vehemently, Cop shoots at Guy, intentional miss or not, Guy pulls out knife and charges, Cop shoots some more, backpedals and stumbles to the ground, Guy pounces on fallen Cop, slashing here and there, Cop's gun emptied, arms flailing and kicking helplessly against murderous Guy... only a miracle can save him now. :shocked:

Miracle happens! Off-duty cop#2 passes by, shoots Guy, Guy falls. Lucky fallen Cop takes off with both arms gutted here and there. But he's alive. :supergrin:

Would a reload have helped in that situation? I don't think so. :upeyes:

Lesson: Pull out gun, be ready to give massive hurt on the other guy right from the get-go. Never, ever, hesitate. ;)

another obvious thing.

when you shoot, shoot to hit. oo naman!

another obvious thing is that you might never need a reload.

another obvious thing is that, like in the story in the post above, you might not even have time to reload.

but those obvious things will not convince me that i shouldn't carry a reload, or that i won't have to practice reloading. :)

i have attempted to trace the confusion and the source of disagreement in this thread :

the thread is about reloads. and we've injected a whole lot of topics like marksmanship and tactics.

this thread is about reloads.

of course marksmanship is important. maybe the most important thing, in fact. much more important than reloads, as have been pointed out.

but that is obvious.

and the thread is about reloads.

beyond marksmanship, (very important: hit your target in the first few shots and you don't need to reload.) the thread wants to discuss reloads.

kaya yata may confusion :) :)

ang kulit ko. :supergrin:

Allegra
07-22-2007, 20:22
I wasnt really interested about reloads etc , was just making a bet w/ myself if I can make this thread reach 10 pages hehe

Kaso ayan , tinapos mo na :)

Edit - I'm learning a lot from this thread though

HEAVY
07-22-2007, 20:34
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Eye Cutter
07-22-2007, 23:16
hwehehehe! kulit mo talaga fafi allegra!

paano na kung na-injure naman non-dominant hand mo??? paano ka na mag-reload niyan???

:banana:

New_comer
07-23-2007, 00:16
Originally posted by Allegra
I wasnt really interested about reloads etc , was just making a bet w/ myself if I can make this thread reach 10 pages hehe

Kaso ayan , tinapos mo na :)

Edit - I'm learning a lot from this thread though

Kulang pa po tayo ng 4 na pahina. Teka lang, isip ulit ako scenario... :upeyes:

TTPower
07-23-2007, 00:26
Originally posted by Allegra
I was surprised most didnt know how to do a mag change
The only similarities nakita ko sa lahat was handa talaga sila pumatay

yan masarap sa teaching shooting sa filifins, you meet intersting people , who needs friendster


+1
nakausap ko yung pnp friend ko who was involved in a shooting incident recently. he and his partner responded to a bar fight. and 1 of the drunks drew a gun and pointed it to his partner's head. to make the long story short he drew his service FA and peppered the guy with all his 16rounds. my friend was hit in the leg.... kung may kasama yung BG baka mas matindi tama nya.

Eye Cutter
07-23-2007, 00:28
wow! bakit naman inubos yung buong magazine???

teka, ano baril na gamit??? single stack .45 or hi-cap na 9mm? naka-pag tac reload ba siya?

TTPower
07-23-2007, 00:32
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
wow! bakit naman inubos yung buong magazine???

teka, ano baril na gamit??? single stack .45 or hi-cap na 9mm? naka-pag tac reload ba siya?

beretta. cguro dala ng kaba. tingin nga namin yung tama nya galing sa kanya during the draw... kasi pababa trajectory. of cors he wont admit that hehehehe

Eye Cutter
07-23-2007, 00:41
so ano nangyari dun sa isa? wala tama? yung lasing?

TTPower
07-23-2007, 00:51
yung partner wala nagawa kasi naunahan na sa bunot ng lasing. yung lasing nilalamayan na. yung friend ko nagpapagaling pa and under investigation sila.

Allegra
07-23-2007, 06:05
Originally posted by Eye Cutter
hwehehehe! kulit mo talaga fafi allegra!

paano na kung na-injure naman non-dominant hand mo??? paano ka na mag-reload niyan???

:banana:


reload?? what's that fafa? yun ba yung kasunod ng miss??
Sorry fafa Doc , nalilito ako hindi sila familiar sakin :)

Ang dali magbiro when you dont shoot anymore hehe
I have a feeling malapit na rin ako mabaril hehe

charlie-xray
07-23-2007, 06:20
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Originally posted by Allegra
reload?? what's that fafa? yun ba yung kasunod ng miss??
Sorry fafa Doc , nalilito ako hindi sila familiar sakin :)

Ang dali magbiro when you dont shoot anymore hehe
I have a feeling malapit na rin ako mabaril hehe

HEAVY
07-23-2007, 07:55
Originally posted by Allegra
reload?? what's that fafa? yun ba yung kasunod ng miss??
Sorry fafa Doc , nalilito ako hindi sila familiar sakin :)

Ang dali magbiro when you dont shoot anymore hehe
I have a feeling malapit na rin ako mabaril hehe

reload?

yun yung di importante.

(loko lang :) )