View Full Version : Which plinking red dot....?
I'm ready to order a inexpensive red dot sight for one of my AR's. I have no interest in spending $600+ on one for shooting at targets.
I'm fairly familiar with Bushnell products, and they offer an ACOG knock-off for $150.00 and Barska offers a similiar knock-off for $100.
I'm leaning toward the bushnell just because of brand recognition, does anyone have any experience with the Barska?
I didn't want to put this thread in the optics forum because I want AR shooters input.
Thanks.
Bushnell:
http://www.bushnell.com/images/products/73-0132P.jpg
Barska:
http://www.binoculars.com/images/barska-ac10984_px300.jpg
IME, you are throwing your money away with any cheap(which means inexpensive in optics) crap. More aggravation than its worth.
Buy quality once and never look back.
Originally posted by Akita
IME, you are throwing your money away with any cheap(which means inexpensive in optics) crap. More aggravation than its worth.
Buy quality once and never look back.
Did you have actual experience (E) with the 2 above mentioned sights? Just wondering.
I wasnt commenting on any brand or model in particular.
(edited for clarity)
thedonn007
07-08-2007, 10:56
I have been wanting to ask the same question myself. I have an eotech for my rilfe, but I have been looking for a cheaper red dot for my ar pistol. I am leaning towards the ATN ultra sight.
Originally posted by Akita
IME, you are throwing your money away with any cheap(which means inexpensive in optics) crap. More aggravation than its worth.
Buy quality once and never look back.
Ok, Mall Ninja, I already stated that I am not willing to spend that kind of money on an optic that I am going to take out to the range twice a year.
I know that you are all geared up for the next foriegn invasion, so you have to have military tested equipment. (The military thanks you in advance for your elite services.)
I on the other hand will be using this rifle to defend myself against pop cans.
A soldier such as your self never compromises equipment when facing life or death situations, but I, the lowley week end plinker must.
Originally posted by Weezer
Ok, Mall Ninja, I already stated that I am not willing to spend that kind of money on an optic that I am going to take out to the range twice a year.
I know that you are all geared up for the next foriegn invasion, so you have to have military tested equipment. (The military thanks you in advance for your elite services.)
I on the other hand will be using this rifle to defend myself against pop cans.
A soldier such as your self never compromises equipment when facing life or death situations, but I, the lowley week end plinker must.
:rofl:
:popcorn:
Poppa Bear
07-08-2007, 11:36
I have an Aimpoint on my AR. It will be used to send many rounds down range. I wanted optics that could take hard use and still function.
I have a couple of cheap red dots on my lever guns (30-30 and 41 Mag) because my eyes do not focus as well as they used to while taking that short range hunting shot. These guns will shoot maybe a couple of dozen rounds per year. I wanted optics to improve my ability to use the weapons accurately but if need be I could use the current iron sights if the red dot broke.
My 7 Mag has an expensive Leopold scope. This gun will fire the least rounds per year but it is my primary for the 200+ yard big game shot. I wanted quality optics for that accuracy required long range shot. This is the weapon handled most carefully, because once it is sighted in for a specific round I do not want to adjust it again because the scope took a hard knock.
Use what works for you based on your intended use. I would likely not have a problem using either of your choices except I already have an Aimpoint, and I do not think either would look good an a lever gun.
Originally posted by Weezer
Ok, Mall Ninja, I already stated that I am not willing to spend that kind of money on an optic that I am going to take out to the range twice a year.
I know that you are all geared up for the next foriegn invasion, so you have to have military tested equipment. (The military thanks you in advance for your elite services.)
I on the other hand will be using this rifle to defend myself against pop cans.
A soldier such as your self never compromises equipment when facing life or death situations, but I, the lowley week end plinker must.
I see they let Gunkid out early.
So get anything Chinese-made and sleep happy.
You are now in my 'ignore' list so I wont be bothering you further with my replies.
:upeyes: Sheep.
(and yes, I'm LE)
Originally posted by Weezer
Ok, Mall Ninja, I already stated that I am not willing to spend that kind of money on an optic that I am going to take out to the range twice a year.
I know that you are all geared up for the next foriegn invasion, so you have to have military tested equipment. (The military thanks you in advance for your elite services.)
I on the other hand will be using this rifle to defend myself against pop cans.
A soldier such as your self never compromises equipment when facing life or death situations, but I, the lowley week end plinker must.
That's how you respond to someone who gives you an honest answer?
Get a grip.
You get what you pay for in this arena.
That is all he was saying.
Originally posted by dickfer
That's how you respond to someone who gives you an honest answer?
Get a grip.
You get what you pay for in this arena.
That is all he was saying.
I stated that I wasn't interested in high-end optics.
I was hoping to hear from someone who had experience with either one or both of the above mentioned optics.
I am fully aware of brands such as Trijicon, I actually have a company that does some mfg. work for them.
I love when people chime in stating that a $1000 optic is better than a $150 one, as if that were the question.
As for the Bushnell product "Holosight", where do you think the Eotech comes from?
Originally posted by Poppa Bear
I have an Aimpoint on my AR. It will be used to send many rounds down range. I wanted optics that could take hard use and still function.
I have a couple of cheap red dots on my lever guns (30-30 and 41 Mag) because my eyes do not focus as well as they used to while taking that short range hunting shot. These guns will shoot maybe a couple of dozen rounds per year. I wanted optics to improve my ability to use the weapons accurately but if need be I could use the current iron sights if the red dot broke.
My 7 Mag has an expensive Leopold scope. This gun will fire the least rounds per year but it is my primary for the 200+ yard big game shot. I wanted quality optics for that accuracy required long range shot. This is the weapon handled most carefully, because once it is sighted in for a specific round I do not want to adjust it again because the scope took a hard knock.
Use what works for you based on your intended use. I would likely not have a problem using either of your choices except I already have an Aimpoint, and I do not think either would look good an a lever gun.
Thank you. I appreciate the reply. I think for this application I am going to choose the Bushnell optic.
Quite a few ARF.com guys seem to be happy with theirs. As for the Barska, I haven't found many reviews.
MrMurphy
07-08-2007, 12:35
Hakko and Docter are also good lower-end dot scopes.
Thanks Mr. Murphy,
The Hakko is considered the Aimpoint clone?
I've read up on them a little bit and people seem very happy with them.
:)
I stated that I wasn't interested in high-end optics.
I was hoping to hear from someone who had experience with either one or both of the above mentioned optics.
I am fully aware of brands such as Trijicon, I actually have a company that does some mfg. work for them.
I'm sick of people asking about "A" or "B" and someone has to chime in about "C".
As for the Bushnell product "Holosight", where do you think the Eotech comes from
WEEZER you are absolutely correct, you asked A or B then you get crap thrown at you, what is it with some people on these pages. You ask a simple question then get crap, Weezer was asking a specific question between two products not a 3rd and 4th option. You are correct there are too many folks on here that are gearing for a WW. Man the guy just wants to shoot pop cans, they dont shoot back.........
MrMurphy
07-08-2007, 14:04
Some of us ARE geared up for a war. I carry my M4 and mounted M68 (Aimpoint) every day on duty. And it performs accordingly. Others want that level of performance and aren't scared by the price to get what they want.
When I buy my own civvie AR, it will be set up the way my work one is (mostly..some components can be bettered, like the stock) and with an Aimpoint, because I have abused the hell out of mine and it keeps on ticking.
The Docter brand makes excellent small scopes. Haven't really played with the Hakko much but they have a good reputation. For non-stressful situations the HoloSight from Bushnell would do well, it's basically the bare bones Eotech.
redduck21502
07-08-2007, 17:17
I cannot comment on those particular red dots, but I do have a Bushnell Holosight on my spare AR. I got it refurbished from Natchezss.com for around $210. It works the same as my EOTech, without the protective shroud. It uses N style batteries, so the battery length isn't good, but you said twice a year. You could probably take the batteries out when not in use and have it for the range without issues. You could even just take fresh batteries on your range trips. You get the same 1MOA dot with 65MOA circle as the EOTech for a lot less. It's probably lighter too without the protective shroud. It's a decent optic for the price.
Others have recommended the SPOT red dot that looks like the Aimpoint, but I don't have first hand knowledge of that one. It is really inexpensive.
Look on ebay for a used older aimpoint, such as a 3000, or a 5000 series red dot. Nobody clones the older ones, so you get a REAL aimpoint, but you get it for usually under $120. I paid $67 delivered for mine. :supergrin:
I purchased the Barska 1x30 M16 Sight shown above from Sportsman's Guide for $72.00 (members club discount) about six weeks ago and mounted it on a Colt flat top carbine. It has been an excellent sight. It mounted easily and securely. The zero was easy to set and has not changed after firing hundreds of rounds since its purchase. The brightness of the cross is adjustable in six or seven steps and is visible on the brightest days. The light transmission also in dim light seems comparable to either a Trijicon Reflex II or an EOTech.
I think they are an excellent value for the money. I liked the first one so well that I just purchased another.
Dern_Humpus
07-09-2007, 07:26
thank you, that was the type of reply we were looking for.:hugs:
Originally posted by Dern_Humpus
thank you, that was the type of reply we were looking for.:hugs:
Yes, thank you for the response.
I did however order the Bushnell, but I think I may try a Barska also.
:thumbsup:
I did the research awhile back. If you don't want an EOTECH, Aimpoint, ACOG, etc. there is one only low cost optic you should consider...
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SPO-TOO-MK3&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSPOT
I don't own one and haven't used one, but apparently they hold zero and have passed numerous "field tests" by the arf.com community. The diehard professionals have even admitted that is a darn good optic. I have not heard one thing bad about it, except that it doesn't have the battery life of an Aimpoint. People said they wouldn't trust it for home defense since it is not battle proven. Fair enough.
If I were you, I'd look at one of those rather than your other choices. It comes with the cantilever mount as well. The rest of the cheap optics are junk, as best as I can tell from my search awhile back.
Good luck and let us know what you get and how it works.
Edit to add: the Bushnell Holosight is not junk. Too bad there is no guard, but for your uses it seems fine.
crazymoose
07-10-2007, 01:47
How about something like a 1-3x shotgun scope? Some of the HSLD guys are fond of that setup, and I remember reading that in some tests done, speed using one of those scopes actually bested the Aimpoint and EOTech. I'll get around to trying that setup sometime.
kazecap0ne
07-10-2007, 04:28
Originally posted by JKG
I did the research awhile back. If you don't want an EOTECH, Aimpoint, ACOG, etc. there is one only low cost optic you should consider...
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SPO-TOO-MK3&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSPOT
I don't own one and haven't used one, but apparently they hold zero and have passed numerous "field tests" by the arf.com community. The diehard professionals have even admitted that is a darn good optic. I have not heard one thing bad about it, except that it doesn't have the battery life of an Aimpoint. People said they wouldn't trust it for home defense since it is not battle proven. Fair enough.
If I were you, I'd look at one of those rather than your other choices. It comes with the cantilever mount as well. The rest of the cheap optics are junk, as best as I can tell from my search awhile back.
Good luck and let us know what you get and how it works.
Edit to add: the Bushnell Holosight is not junk. Too bad there is no guard, but for your uses it seems fine.
what does the link go to? it won't work
Just go to the main website page for GandRtactical and then search SPOT and you will see the scope.
thedonn007
07-10-2007, 15:36
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SPO-TOO-MK3&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSPOT
Looks like an aimpoint, I will have to search for the specs as there is not much information about it at the website above.
Nelybarg
07-11-2007, 03:20
Originally posted by lelapin
I purchased the Barska 1x30 M16 Sight shown above from Sportsman's Guide for $72.00 (members club discount) about six weeks ago and mounted it on a Colt flat top carbine. It has been an excellent sight. It mounted easily and securely. The zero was easy to set and has not changed after firing hundreds of rounds since its purchase. The brightness of the cross is adjustable in six or seven steps and is visible on the brightest days. The light transmission also in dim light seems comparable to either a Trijicon Reflex II or an EOTech.
I think they are an excellent value for the money. I liked the first one so well that I just purchased another.
with this optic mounted on the flattop, how does it co-witness with the front sight? any way for you to take a few pics of it mounted for us?
thanks
Originally posted by crazymoose
How about something like a 1-3x shotgun scope? Some of the HSLD guys are fond of that setup, and I remember reading that in some tests done, speed using one of those scopes actually bested the Aimpoint and EOTech. I'll get around to trying that setup sometime.
Very true. I knowsomeone out of Bragg who works with some people that have Leupy shotgun scopes and love the set up.
The SPOT as offered by gandrtactical is a very good low end red dot. Also look into the Burris Xtreme Speed Dot. It is the same as the SPOT but with upgraded glass and internals.
Some of us ARE geared up for a war. I carry my M4 and mounted M68 (Aimpoint) every day on duty. And it performs accordingly. Others want that level of performance and aren't scared by the price to get what they want.
Your abuse and abuse as seen in theater are two different things. Have read writings of those that have been in numerous gunfights and had their Aimpoints go tango uniform. Smaller units out of Bragg are actually finding the Eotech to be better. Same out of CRANE.
Originally posted by Rob96
Very true. I knowsomeone out of Bragg who works with some people that have Leupy shotgun scopes and love the set up.
On arf.com there was a post about a test done with numerous shooters with various optics. If I remember correctly (I heard this second hand), they were all surprised to find that the best reaction times were with the Leopold shotgun scope. I wish I could find that review...
Originally posted by Rob96
Have read writings of those that have been in numerous gunfights and had their Aimpoints go tango uniform. Smaller units out of Bragg are actually finding the Eotech to be better. Same out of CRANE.
Do you have sources for these writings? I find it very interesting. I 'think' I like the Eotech best, but the battery life and magnifier for the Aimpoint is nice. Apparently there is a 3x for the Eotech as well.
Originally posted by JKG
On arf.com there was a post about a test done with numerous shooters with various optics. If I remember correctly (I heard this second hand), they were all surprised to find that the best reaction times were with the Leopold shotgun scope. I wish I could find that review...
That test was conducted by Bartholomew Roberts. I believe if you go the The Firing Line or The High Road, he also posted the results there as well.
Originally posted by JKG
Do you have sources for these writings? I find it very interesting. I 'think' I like the Eotech best, but the battery life and magnifier for the Aimpoint is nice. Apparently there is a 3x for the Eotech as well.
One of the writings was from a soldier that was deployed and seen numerous fire fights. The article appeared in Guns and Ammos AR-15 publication. There have also been posts on threads about this. Plus with my conversations with someone who works with the SMU's out of Bragg. If you Google SOPMOD II I believe you will see NSWG Crane has dropped the Aimpoint and adopted the Eotech among other things. I will try to find the new SOPMOD list and post it here.
MrMurphy
07-12-2007, 12:18
I'd seen that.
The Eotech's also been revised and updated several times since it came out, my few experiences with them were about 3 years ago.
I know Aimpoints can die, I've known people it's happened to while deployed, but from my experiences with both (till I get my hands on a newer Eotech, what is it, Rev F now?) lead me to stick with what I'm used to (not that I have a choice at work, though when TDY I spoke to the MSgt who's the head of CATM for USAFE in the "new gear" department and they've been trying to get the Eotech adopted apparently, along with another design that incorporates a PAQ-4, Dot, and other stuff all into one sight unit supposedly).
Originally posted by MrMurphy
I'd seen that.
The Eotech's also been revised and updated several times since it came out, my few experiences with them were about 3 years ago.
I know Aimpoints can die, I've known people it's happened to while deployed, but from my experiences with both (till I get my hands on a newer Eotech, what is it, Rev F now?) lead me to stick with what I'm used to (not that I have a choice at work, though when TDY I spoke to the MSgt who's the head of CATM for USAFE in the "new gear" department and they've been trying to get the Eotech adopted apparently, along with another design that incorporates a PAQ-4, Dot, and other stuff all into one sight unit supposedly).
Yup. Eotechs suffered from wandering zero and from water pressure activating the switches(buttons) when taken to certain depths. All since corrected with the Rev. F.Person I talk with from NC about weapons in use seems to suggest many like either the ACOG, Short Dot, or just using a Leupy shotgun scope. He was quite impressed with them on the range during a pre-deployment trainng session.
I know Aimpoints can die, I've known people it's happened to while deployed,
Aimpoints seem to be suseptible to vibration, or the switch going bad. That is if they go down.
Great info Rob, thanks.
Here's the Bart Roberts article I mentioned...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=193965
$49.99 - $59.99
TruGlo Red Dot.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id=0031519712256a&navCount=1&podId=0031519712256&parentId=cat601603&masterpathid=&navAction=jump&cmCat=null-cat601603-cat601603&catalogCode=IH&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601603&hasJS=true
I have the SPOT mounted on my STAG. It co-witness's properly. It holds zero.
It's a very decent optic for inexpensive.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/madecov/General/STAG002.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/madecov/General/STAG001.jpg
Originally posted by madecov
I have the SPOT mounted on my STAG. It co-witness's properly. It holds zero.
It's a very decent optic for inexpensive.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/madecov/General/STAG002.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/madecov/General/STAG001.jpg
How's the battery life?
thedonn007
07-16-2007, 03:22
Is the SPOT Parralax free?
Gopherslayer
07-18-2007, 15:04
i have one of the Bushnell red/green Trophy on my Daewoo 2000 and it has about 2000 rds through it, it's a good sight, one of the brightest i have seen. has a t reticle with a dot in the center top of the t. you will like it, it's made in Korea so it matchs my Daewoo. buy it from Midway usa they have the best price.
Thanks. I just got mine from Opticsplanet.com for $149 shipped, and it was here within 24 hours. I'm waiting on a riser mount. Looks like a great scope.
Speaking of Parallax, is the Bushnell MP supposed to be parallax free?
I zeroed at 50 yds and can hit between 50-200 without issue.
I'm not sure about battery, but it seems to be ok
I have that model Bushnell on a RRA CAR16 and love it.
excellent post guys ...
weezer, post your results please ...
149 to the door looks like a good deal to me
Tommy Vercetti
07-22-2007, 13:02
Originally posted by Rob96
One of the writings was from a soldier that was deployed and seen numerous fire fights. The article appeared in Guns and Ammos AR-15 publication. There have also been posts on threads about this. Plus with my conversations with someone who works with the SMU's out of Bragg. If you Google SOPMOD II I believe you will see NSWG Crane has dropped the Aimpoint and adopted the Eotech among other things. I will try to find the new SOPMOD list and post it here.
Here you go Rob96:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005smallarms/thursday/gatewood.pdf
The EOTech contract winner for the SOPMOD II program you speak of is the 553. When I initially started my search for an optic I was 99% sure I was going with an Aimpoint M3. After getting the chance to try both out, however, I found I'm quicker with the EOTech(much more instinctive reticle IMHO). In addition, despite my predisposition towards the looks and battery life of the M3, the fact the 553 allows me to continue only buying CR 123's was a huge plus for me given the number of Surefire flashlights I already own.:):beer:
Originally posted by WVG26
excellent post guys ...
weezer, post your results please ...
149 to the door looks like a good deal to me
I took the rifle out to the range today, and I love the sight. It works great so far, especially for $150.
I did buy a Promag 3/4" riser mount for $20, and now the dot sits a bit above the front sight post.
The dot sits a bit below the front sight post without the riser.
I have read reviews where the Yankee Hill Machine Eotech riser will allow co-witness.
Good luck.
Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Here you go Rob96:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005smallarms/thursday/gatewood.pdf
The EOTech contract winner for the SOPMOD II program you speak of is the 553. When I initially started my search for an optic I was 99% sure I was going with an Aimpoint M3. After getting the chance to try both out, however, I found I'm quicker with the EOTech(much more instinctive recticle IMHO). In addition, despite my predisposition towards the looks and battery life of the M3, the fact the 553 allows me to continue only buying CR 123's was a huge plus for me given the number of Surefire flashlights I already own.:):beer:
Thank you sir.
Originally posted by Weezer
I took the rifle out to the range today, and I love the sight. It works great so far, especially for $150.
I did buy a Promag 3/4" riser mount for $20, and now the dot sits a bit above the front sight post.
The dot sits a bit below the front sight post without the riser.
I have read reviews where the Yankee Hill Machine Eotech riser will allow co-witness.
Good luck.
thanks:thumbsup:
Tommy Vercetti
07-22-2007, 20:46
Originally posted by Rob96
Thank you sir.
You're welcome.:cheers:
TheBadGuy
07-24-2007, 18:13
I ordered the Bushnell Trophy MP for my wife's new AR build yesterday and it shipped today from opticsplanet.com Best price and good service!
I'll have to wait and see if I need to buy her a riser once it gets here on Thursday
Here is the link for the riser I got. It is 3/4" high.
http://www.shootersmart.com/site/index.php?do=display&pid=PM066 (RISER)
I have both sides of this issue in my safe. I just got into the black rifle business but I'm an amateur there. My cop son has an EOTech on his M4 and I really liked it so I got one for my 6.5mm Grendel. Really slick sight in my opinion.
On the other hand, I have an inexpensive Chinese red dot on my Ruger .22/45 pistol that has three dot sizes and multiple intensity settings. In that low recoil environment, it has worked very well. Is it the quality of the EOTech? I SERIOUSLY doubt it but it is a hell of a bargain for the money. Don
chevrofreak
07-30-2007, 15:55
I have a Hakko Tacpoint (TAC1) that has been on my AK47 for a while now. While fiddling with the sight one night the power knob kept getting looser and more wobbly. It eventually fell off, so I punched out the cover plate on the back of it. The nut that held the knob to the copper shaft had come loose. I put the knob back on and installed the nut with some loctite and haven't had a single problem since. It is very bright, holds a zero, and is pretty light as well.
Prior to that I had another Aimpoint clone that had the knob fail, but that one was extremely cheaply made. The knob was attatched to a rheostat that was inside of a brass sleeve, and that was just glued inside of the body. That sight was also a lot heavier than the hakko.
Hakko has a lifetime warranty on their Blue Ring stuff, so you'll be able to get it repaired if something does happen. I decided to take matters into my own hands instead.
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