legality question?

[cocked@locked]

I was just given a old double barrel shotgun it seems to be about 60 to 80 years old, the only thing is that it has been sawn down to a pistol grip and both barrels end at the front forestock, the shotgun is in no working order, both internal hammers and firing pins have been removed sometime ago, how legal is this? i would like to keep it as a display piece, but i dont want the "G" showing up at my door either, any advice or pushes in the right direction will be greatly apprecited. guy that gave it to me says he used to play cowboys and indians with this thing back in the late fifties only markings on the gun are from a long gone hardware store in philadelphia,

[Cali-Glock]

Originally posted by cocked@locked
I was just given a old double barrel shotgun it seems to be about 60 to 80 years old, the only thing is that it has been sawn down to a pistol grip and both barrels end at the front forestock, the shotgun is in no working order, both internal hammers and firing pins have been removed sometime ago, how legal is this? i would like to keep it as a display piece, but i dont want the "G" showing up at my door either, any advice or pushes in the right direction will be greatly apprecited. guy that gave it to me says he used to play cowboys and indians with this thing back in the late fifties only markings on the gun are from a long gone hardware store in philadelphia,

1: how long are the barrels (18" + then okay)
2: what is the overall length (26" + then okay)

[captainstormy]

I'm not a cop or a lawyer but I know lots of places that sell old military guns that would otherwise be illegal except they have had their firing pins removed. If its none working I doubt it would be a problem.

[AKsRule]

Originally posted by captainstormy
I'm not a cop or a lawyer but I know lots of places that sell old military guns that would otherwise be illegal except they have had their firing pins removed. If its none working I doubt it would be a problem.


WRONG WRONG WRONG !!! :shocked:

If a modern Breech Loading Firearm can be readily restored to working condition by replacing parts or using common hand tools the BATF will likely consider it as Functional , and in this case it would be a short barreled shotgun - which requires a Federal Tax Stamp.

If the barrels are UNDER 18" DO NOT keep this thing as is!

You might get away with welding the action shut - but only
the BATF can advise you on this.

[Bren]

Originally posted by captainstormy
I'm not a cop or a lawyer but I know lots of places that sell old military guns that would otherwise be illegal except they have had their firing pins removed. If its none working I doubt it would be a problem.
That's not even close to making them legal, so you are either wrong about them being legal now or about them being illegal before. To make an NFA weapon "not a gun anymore" you have to make multiple cuts through the receiver, as specified by ATF, in such a way that a significant amount of metal is lost and it can't just be welded back together. Removing the firing pin or making the gun inoperable has no affect on its legal status - you could fill the barrel with lead and a machingun or short barrelled shotgun/rifle is still just as illegal.

[captainstormy]

Well, like I said I'm not a cop or a lawyer. But I've seen more then one millitary surplus stores that would sell you old vietnam era M60's with the fireing pin removed.

[Deaf Smith]

I bet the M60s are DEWAT. Welded over reciever and cannot be reconstitued as a workikng weapon.

As for the shotgun, if the barrels are below 18 inches, throw them in the river and get new ones. If the OAL is below 26 inches, take the stock off, throw it in the river, and go buy a new butt stock.

The firing pins mean nothing to the ATF. The receiver is the key. If the reciever is there, and the OAL or BBL is wrong, it's a sawed off shotgun and mucho illegal.

Deaf

[Bren]

Originally posted by Deaf Smith
I bet the M60s are DEWAT. Welded over reciever and cannot be reconstitued as a workikng weapon.


Or a dummy receiver that was never a firearm in the first place. There is a place near me that has some like that.

[ReAX222]

Doesn't the NFA provide something for this type of weapon or does the barrel need to be riffled?

I'd suggest checking for a serial number, the NFA has something about antiques and curios that might fit your needs.

How ever I do agree with the cut the receiver idea. Or in the case of a double barrel, you can probably cut enough of the chamber out on the bottom where you would never see it when it was assembled.

[cocked@locked]

I am at a stand still with this thing, i deffinitly dont want to break the law just by having this thing, my local police department has a buy back program but i would hate to see any firearm turned into paper clips, but on the up-side i could use the fifty bucks towards a new shotty or ammo, and this also proves the point that criminals dont give up there guns, law abiding citizens do, did you ever see a thug ganster go in and say here's my full auto MAC-10 now give me my fifty dollars...............no, its usally some grandmother with an old flintlock musket from the pilgrim days.

[Deaf Smith]

See if they will buy just the barrels:-)

Deaf

[ReAX222]

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm

5845. Definitions

For the purpose of this chapter --

(a) Firearm. -- The term "firearm" means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;....
.....The term "firearm" shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

(d) Shotgun. -- The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

(g) Antique firearm. -- The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(h) Unserviceable firearm. -- The term "unserviceable firearm" means a firearm which is incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition.

5851

(e) Unserviceable firearm. -- An unserviceable firearm may be transferred as a curio or ornament without payment of the transfer tax imposed by section 5811, under such requirements as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

§ 179.11 Meaning of terms.
Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

§ 179.25 Collector's items.

The Director shall determine in accordance with 26 U.S.C. 5845(a), whether a firearm or device, which although originally designed as a weapon, is by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. A person who desires to obtain a determination under that provision of law shall follow the procedures prescribed in § 179.24 relating to destructive device determinations, and shall include information as to date of manufacture, value, design and other characteristics which would sustain a finding that the firearm or device is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

[36 FR 14256, Aug. 3, 1971. Redesignated at 40 FR 16835, Apr. 15, 1975, and amended by T.D. ATF-48, 44 FR 55842, Sept. 28, 1979]

You are in violation of the law, so it might be best to get a lawyer to apply. Sence your shot gun has a sawed off pistol grip, I think you can call it an AOW. With a silver tongue you could probably even get it deemed as an antique.

[SouthpawShootr]

Originally posted by cocked@locked
I am at a stand still with this thing, i deffinitly dont want to break the law just by having this thing, my local police department has a buy back program but i would hate to see any firearm turned into paper clips, but on the up-side i could use the fifty bucks towards a new shotty or ammo, and this also proves the point that criminals dont give up there guns, law abiding citizens do, did you ever see a thug ganster go in and say here's my full auto MAC-10 now give me my fifty dollars...............no, its usally some grandmother with an old flintlock musket from the pilgrim days.

Do not turn this thing in on a PD buyback program. They will recognize it as an illegal NFA controlled item and cuff you on the spot. If you don't have that tax stamp they'll make your life very difficult, very fast. I'd take the barrels off, pound them flat, cut them into iddy-biddy pieces and do my best to make sure they are completely inoperable and can no longer be recognized as shotgun barrels. Then get rid of the pieces. Once those barrels are gone you're OK. Merely separate it from the receiver and you could conceivably be charged with constructive intent if you are in possession of both parts. The receiver you can keep; strip the remains of the stock off, if you want to and turn it in to the PD (without the barrels of course). If it's a quality receiver, you could even build it back up with new barrels, but I wouldn't even mess with it. Most likely it's in extremely poor condition or poor quality to start with. Personally, I'd destroy the receiver also. In any case, it wouldn't be spending another night in my possession configured the way it is.

It's possible that another LEGAL route of getting rid of this is to turn it directly into the ATF. You'll have to tell them the truth about how you came into possession of it and you're taking a risk that they'll prosecute you or the person who gave it to you for having it. I'd get a lawyer if I was going to do it this way.

[cocked@locked]

Im going fishing off the coast of N.J. this weekend, it will most likely being doing a houdini somewhere off the shores of cape may, there is nothing salvageable of the thing and im tired of dealing with it, so soon as i am out of sight of land the thing will become part of a reef in about 200ft of water.