Buy a gun in VA without the 30 day wait? (New Resident) [Archive] - Glock Talk

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jasonwc
07-13-2007, 00:42
I'm looking to purchase a NIB Glock 19 and I would like to do so as soon as possible. Purchasing it in NJ is out of the question. I would have to wait a minimum of 30 days (more like 3+ months) and pay over $60 to get a Firearms ID Card and Permit to Purchase a Handgun. I've therefore decided to wait until I move to VA to buy a gun. However, I won't be able to establish residency until July 25th, which is when my lease will start. And I would rather not wait the 30 days required by federal law to purchase a handgun in Virginia from a Federally licensed dealer. So, the question is, what is the best way to go about purchasing a NIB Glock legally in VA without waiting the 30 days?

First Option- Purchase at a Gun Show

There's going to be a large gun show on July 27-29 (C&E Gun Shows, The Nation's Gun Show - http://www.cegunshows.com/nations_gun_show.htm) in Chantilly, VA at the Dulles Expo Center which is very close to where I'll be living.

If I can find a NIB Glock 19 at the Gun show sold by a private seller, I should have no problem purchasing it legally. If the seller asks, I will have VA ID, a lease with the same address as on my ID, and a passport.

I'm wondering whether this is a realistic expectation. Is it likely that I'll be able to find a NIB Glock 19 from a private seller? Also, are there any downsides to doing this?

Option Two- Private FTF Sale in VA, not at Gun Show

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Truckee
07-13-2007, 01:16
Jason,
We may be in the wrong forum here.

But anyhow and as far as I know, if you show up in Ole Virginny on the 25th with two forms of 'qualified' ID that show the same VA. address and personal information, you can legally buy a HG that day. Of course this is depends upon everything else measuring up as it needs to.

Where did you get the 30 day thing?

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 01:22
Originally posted by Truckee
Jason,
We may be in the wrong forum here.

But anyhow and as far as I know, if you show up in Ole Virginny on the 25th with two forms of 'qualified' ID that show the same VA. address and personal information, you can legally buy a HG that day. Of course this is depends upon everything else measuring up as it needs to.

Where did you get the 30 day thing?

I got the information straight from the Virginia Police Department website, and that information is copied basically verbatim from §18.2-308.2:2. See below:

"Primary Identification

The primary form of ID shall consist of a valid photo-ID form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or of the prospective purchaser or transferee’s home state that denotes the individual’s name, race, sex, address, and date of birth. Where the primary form is a photo-ID issued by the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV), the dealer shall not transfer a firearm to the prospective purchaser until 30-days after the date of issue of an original or duplicate driver's license unless a copy of his/her DMV driver's record is presented showing that the original date of issue was more than 30-days prior to the attempted purchase.

The primary form of ID for a non-Virginia resident, for the purchase of a rifle or shotgun, must consist of a valid photo-ID issued by a governmental agency of the prospective purchaser’s home state that denote the purchaser’s name, race, sex, date of birth and address. Federal law prohibits the sale or transfer of a handgun to a nonresident of the state in which the handgun is being purchased."

SOURCE: §18.2-308.2:2
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm

------

So the obvious question is whether FFL dealers know about this legal requirement? If not, then I should have no problem buying a gun anywhere. As you noted, the Gun Show's website mentions that you need two forms of ID from the state of Virginia to buy a handgun but says nothing about the 30 day requirement.

As for the appropriate forum for this post, I decided to put it here because I'm looking to purchase a Glock, and I wasn't sure where else to post it.

Truckee
07-13-2007, 01:33
Hummmm... when I read your post, the 30 day issue had a air of credibility as it sounded like something that VA. would do. However, I'd not heard of this before or ever read it in statute.

I'll look into this further and if I find out something contrary, I'll hit you with a post or PM.

Get your VA. credentials ASAP to cut your wait time. Also, your other avenues to purchase sound viable.

Sorry if I confused things, I'd just never read this anywhere.

eta:

'Glockers of the Old Dominion' might have been a better place to post this. The boys there would have hopped all over your post.

Also, might I suggest you email Philip Van Cleave at the VCDL (http://www.vcdl.org/static/officers.html) with this question. This 30 day issue may just be valid, and probably is. But, the VSP site, although very good, has been known to be off-base at times. Mr. Van Cleave will have this info right off the top of his head.

Oh yeah, welcome to Virginia... and go to GOTOD to post a "hello." There are many GT members from NOVA. You can probably make some good contacts and new friends.

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 01:35
The earliest I can get VA ID is July 25, as that's the start of the lease. Before that I won't reside in VA.

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 01:40
Originally posted by Truckee
Hummmm... when I read your post, the 30 day issue had a air of credibility as it sounded like something that VA. would do. However, I'd not heard of this before or ever read it in statute.

Note that this is not something that Virginia did. I believe it's Federal law that you cannot purchase a firearm in a state unless you are a resident of that state, and residence is defined as living in a state for a minimum of 30 days. I don't think Virginia is to blame on this one. As far as I know, all states do the same.

Whether or not the requirement is followed, I don't know.

Truckee
07-13-2007, 01:46
Maybe it is a Fed statute, could be why I've missed it.

Check my 'eta' above.

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 01:57
Thanks for the welcome. I'll check out the 'Glockers of the Old Dominion' forum tomorrow as it's getting a bit late at the moment.

As for the 30 day wait, I doubt the VSP website is wrong on this instance as as Google search of the language brings up the Virginia Statue cited. I have linked the full statute above. It's possible, though unlikely, that the statute is out of date.

EDIT:

Truckee, I have sent an email as you suggested to Philip Van Cleave. I'll post his response here if I receive one.

rwrjr
07-13-2007, 05:23
Originally posted by jasonwc
I'm looking to purchase a NIB Glock 19 and I would like to do so as soon as possible. ... However, I won't be able to establish residency until July 25th, which is when my lease will start. And I would rather not wait the 30 days required by federal law to purchase a handgun in Virginia from a Federally licensed dealer.
Hi Jason,
I think I remember some of your earlier posts about open carry in VA. IIRC you will be moving to Arlington or Fairfax Co. If you end up waiting the 30 days you have several of options. You can buy retail from Blue Ridge Arsenal, which is in Chantilly, very close to where the July gun show will be. Or you can buy from my favorite source, Summit Gun Broker. I just bought a second G19 from Summit and they have good prices. You could order it before your 30 days were up, say on day 24 or 25. It will take a few days for the order to get to the FFL of your choice and you just take ownership from the FFL on or after day 30. I'd wait 31 just so there was no confusion, but that's me. I can recommend a good FFL in Fairfax, I've used him twice and have two more coming which will be going through him.

Good luck whatever route you choose. Perhaps I'll bump into you at the gun show.

Ron

lethal tupperwa
07-13-2007, 05:46
Ask How can I break the law involving firearms?

DannyR
07-13-2007, 06:18
I don't think it can be done legally, and for good reason. When your 30 days are up, the address on your VA driver's license must match the address on your proof of residency--lease, electric bill, bank statement.

vafish
07-13-2007, 06:22
Originally posted by lethal tupperwa
Ask How can I break the law involving firearms?

He's not asking how he can break the law.

He's asking how he can keep from breaking the law.



Jason,

While your interpretation of VA laws seems correct to me,

Your chances of finding a NIB G19 from a non-dealer are pretty slim.

Most of the people selling guns at the Nations Capital gun show are dealers. At least the guys with the tables full of guns are dealers. There occasionally are people with tables of stuff other than guns, with one or 2 personal guns for sale.

Your best chance is to find someone walking around trying to sell a used G19. Or visit the local ranges and check their bulliten boards for one for sale.

I'd suggest you tape a sign to your back that says "Wanted nice condition used Glock 19" and spend a couple days walking around the show.

As a side note, don't go into a long explanation of why you need to buy in a person to person sale, just show them your VA DL and pay them.

Other than that you may just have to suck it up and wait. I know you want the G19 now, but how long did you live in NJ? The extra 30 days should be a cake walk to wait.

Wayne D
07-13-2007, 06:27
Originally posted by lethal tupperwa
Ask How can I break the law involving firearms?

He didn't, he ask

So, the question is, what is the best way to go about purchasing a NIB Glock legally in VA without waiting the 30 days?

jegoodin
07-13-2007, 07:03
Your interpretation is correct. You have to wait 30 days after getting your Virginia ID (DL) before you can take delivery of a handgun from a dealer. You can "buy it" before that date, but you cannot take delivery before the 30 days is up. That is not the same as a 30 day waiting period; although in Virginia if you don't have a CHP you have to wait 30 days between handgun purchases.

You can buy a handgun from a private individual without having to wait 30 days from the date your DL was issued. Personally, I would not sell you one of my guns until the 30 days was up, but it would be legal.

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 10:47
Originally posted by lethal tupperwa
Ask How can I break the law involving firearms?

Perhaps you should re-read my post. I made it very clear that I was looking for a LEGAL means to purchase without the wait.

The pertinent line is: "So, the question is, what is the best way to go about purchasing a NIB Glock legally in VA without waiting the 30 days?" (emphasis added)

Truckee:

I got a very quick response from Philip van Cleave. I've posted it in its entirety below:

Jason,

That 30-day wait on residency is valid law as far as I know (I'm
cc'ing our Executive members in case I am missing something). So the
two options you mention below are valid.

Fairfax requires proof of residency in Fairfax for a CHP. We think
this is BS, but you will need your driver's license and something
like a utility bill with the address on it. Again, one of our
Fairfax EMs can give details.

Welcome to VA! You're going to like it here.

Regards,
Philip

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 11:11
Originally posted by rwrjr
Hi Jason,
I think I remember some of your earlier posts about open carry in VA. IIRC you will be moving to Arlington or Fairfax Co. If you end up waiting the 30 days you have several of options. You can buy retail from Blue Ridge Arsenal, which is in Chantilly, very close to where the July gun show will be. Or you can buy from my favorite source, Summit Gun Broker. I just bought a second G19 from Summit and they have good prices. You could order it before your 30 days were up, say on day 24 or 25. It will take a few days for the order to get to the FFL of your choice and you just take ownership from the FFL on or after day 30. I'd wait 31 just so there was no confusion, but that's me. I can recommend a good FFL in Fairfax, I've used him twice and have two more coming which will be going through him.

Good luck whatever route you choose. Perhaps I'll bump into you at the gun show.

Ron

I've heard good things about Summit Gun Broker and that would probably be my most likely retail source. I considered calling to ask their cost on a NIB Glock 19 but I didn't want to bother them until I was actually ready to purchase. Would you mind telling me how much you were charged at Summit for your Glock 19? Also, what did you pay in FFL fees?

rwrjr
07-13-2007, 11:35
Originally posted by jasonwc
I've heard good things about Summit Gun Broker and that would probably be my most likely retail source. I considered calling to ask their cost on a NIB Glock 19 but I didn't want to bother them until I was actually ready to purchase. Would you mind telling me how much you were charged at Summit for your Glock 19? Also, what did you pay in FFL fees?
No problem. $459 + $15 shipping. FFL fee is $27 from the guy I use. So total out of pocket is $501.

That's the cash price, I think he adds 3% for CC. I just mail a cashiers check to get the cash price. Summit has new & used mags, so if you want extras, I suggest ordering them with your gun so they're included in the $15 shipping charge. The gun comes with two hi-cap mags.

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 11:50
Originally posted by rwrjr
No problem. $459 + $15 shipping. FFL fee is $27 from the guy I use. So total out of pocket is $501.

That's the cash price, I think he adds 3% for CC. I just mail a cashiers check to get the cash price. Summit has new & used mags, so if you want extras, I suggest ordering them with your gun so they're included in the $15 shipping charge. The gun comes with two hi-cap mags.

Thanks for the info. I was considering purchasing mags from Botatch due to their ridiculously low price of $14 for new magazines, but you're right that I might be better of just paying the $19 at Summit as shipping is already covered. Additionally, I wouldn't have to worry about ******'s crappy customer service.

BTW, would you recommend against purchasing used magazines?

marinr
07-13-2007, 11:59
Though you didn't ask specifically, I'll suggest that as soon as you get a driver's license you begin the process to get a Concealed Handgun Permit.

In Virginia that will allow you not only to carry a handgun concealed in many places, it will allow you to carry openly in some places you may not carry concealed, and it will allow you to purchase more than one handgun in a 30-day period.

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 12:05
Originally posted by marinr
Though you didn't ask specifically, I'll suggest that as soon as you get a driver's license you begin the process to get a Concealed Handgun Permit.

In Virginia that will allow you not only to carry a handgun concealed in many places, it will allow you to carry openly in some places you may not carry concealed, and it will allow you to purchase more than one handgun in a 30-day period.

I will be submitting my CHP application the day I arrive in Virginia.

I believe you are incorrect regarding Open Carry. The Concealed Carry Permit gives you the legal right to carry a gun concealed, and as you mentioned, to purchase multiple handguns a month. However, anyone who legally owns a handgun can open carry in Virginia; no permit or license is required.

The only place I'm aware of that you cannot carry concealed but can carry openly in Virginia is in restaurants that serve alcohol on premise. And you are legally entitled to carry openly in such restaurants without a concealed handgun permit.

rwrjr
07-13-2007, 12:30
Originally posted by jasonwc
BTW, would you recommend against purchasing used magazines?

I don't have any experience with used mags to advise either way. I bought new mags for extras. I think he sells used for $14 and new for $19.

I wouldn't be worried about the quality of used mags from Summit since he's been good to deal with in the past. My first purchase from Summit was a used S&W 686. He had many, those w/rubber grips were $330 and w/wood grips were $350. I wanted rubber and we agreed via emails. By the time he received my check he was out of the rubber gripped models and gave me a unit with wood grips for the orginally agreed upon $330. Made it easy for me to go back to him when I wanted a Glock.

Funny thing about those wood grips on the 686. I shot it several times with the woods but I really wanted rubber so I bought a Hogue monogrip off of eBay. I popped it on and took it to the range exactly twice before pulling it off and putting the woods back on. They just feel a whole lot better on this particular gun.

RHow
07-13-2007, 12:42
Fairfax County will not accept your application for a CHP until you have been a resident for 30 days. You can fill it out, but the clerk of the court requires the 30 day residency before accepting the application.

And in Fairfax County, they take the 45 days to approve the application not matter what. I've had mine since the requirements were relaxed, and even with a 12 year crystal clean record, my renewal will take 45 days (per the intake clerk, so I re-applied 60 days prior to expiration). Fairfax doesn't want to make anything easy.

Virginia is a great state to live in, but Fairfax is trying to become the Massachussets of Virginia.

As far as legally obtaining a gun, follow what was said above about ordering one and picking it up on day 31 of residency, attempting to buy a handgun (even face to face) would be a felony if anyone witnessed or reported you trying to purchase before the 30 day residency was established.

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 12:54
Originally posted by RHow
Fairfax County will not accept your application for a CHP until you have been a resident for 30 days. You can fill it out, but the clerk of the court requires the 30 day residency before accepting the application.

Then they are breaking the law. The Virginia State Police site clearly states that there is no waiting period before a new resident can apply for a Concealed Handgun Permit. The 45 day wait is effectively the waiting period. Contact the VCDL and tell them what the Fairfax County Court told you. You may also want to contact the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Virginia as the VCDL suggests considering that Fairfax appears to be flagrantly violating State law.

I've copied the pertinent section from the Virginia State Police website:

"Application for a Concealed Handgun Permit

Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he or she resides, or if he is a member of the United States armed forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. There is no requirement as to the length of time an applicant for a Concealed Handgun Permit must have been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city where he or she resides." (emphasis added)

Source: http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm

rwrjr
07-13-2007, 12:55
Originally posted by RHow
... I've had mine since the requirements were relaxed, and even with a 12 year crystal clean record, my renewal will take 45 days (per the intake clerk, so I re-applied 60 days prior to expiration). Fairfax doesn't want to make anything easy.
I live in Fairfax and I just printed out the paperwork. Where do you take it? The courthouse on 123 or the County gov't center?

jasonwc
07-13-2007, 13:16
RHow,

I contacted Philip Van Cleave of the VCDL with your experience in Fairfax County. If Fairfax is still violating state law, I plan to fight it.

I've attached my letter to Mr. Van Cleave below:

Dear Mr. Van Cleave,

I have just been made aware of some disturbing information regarding Fairfax County's handling of Resident Concealed Handgun Permits. I was told by a Fairfax County resident who is a CHP holder that "Fairfax County will not accept your application for a CHP until you have been a resident for 30 days. You can fill it out, but the clerk of the court requires the 30 day residency before accepting the application". Yet this contradicts the very precise and clear wording of the Virginia State Police website which states that "There is no requirement as to the length of time an applicant for a Concealed Handgun Permit must have been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city where he or she resides" (http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm).

If possible, could you forward this to the Fairfax Executive Members to see whether this is in fact an issue in Fairfax county, and if so what can be done to remedy the situation? I plan to apply for my CHP the day I move to Virginia and would like to know the best means of fighting this flagrant violation of Virginia state law. Thank you for your help regarding my previous question and your very prompt response. I apologize for the flurry of questions; I just want to be prepared when I arrive in VA.

Sincerely,

Jason

DualM30s
07-13-2007, 14:00
Having read this thread... then blowing the dust off of ..." the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Sorry, but :shocked: (grabs air-sickness bag and loads 'er up)

jasonwc
07-14-2007, 17:15
Originally posted by vafish
He's not asking how he can break the law.

He's asking how he can keep from breaking the law.



Jason,

While your interpretation of VA laws seems correct to me,

Your chances of finding a NIB G19 from a non-dealer are pretty slim.

Most of the people selling guns at the Nations Capital gun show are dealers. At least the guys with the tables full of guns are dealers. There occasionally are people with tables of stuff other than guns, with one or 2 personal guns for sale.

Your best chance is to find someone walking around trying to sell a used G19. Or visit the local ranges and check their bulliten boards for one for sale.

I'd suggest you tape a sign to your back that says "Wanted nice condition used Glock 19" and spend a couple days walking around the show.

As a side note, don't go into a long explanation of why you need to buy in a person to person sale, just show them your VA DL and pay them.

Other than that you may just have to suck it up and wait. I know you want the G19 now, but how long did you live in NJ? The extra 30 days should be a cake walk to wait.

I think I'll take your wise advise and just wait the 30 days. Impatience just got the better of me :(. Summit Gun Brokers looks like the best bet. I doubt I'll be able to find a price better than $459 for a new Glock 19.

Anyways, now I have the NRA Basic Pistol Course certification so I can apply for the CHP when I arrive in Virginia. The guys at VCDL have been absolutely amazing and I've received no less than 10 replies from VCDL members with useful information on Virginia firearms laws. As soon as my lease is signed, I plan to get an NRA and VCDL membership.

Only two more weeks until I move into my new home in VA :-D

Grimsi
07-15-2007, 01:20
Originally posted by jasonwc
I got the information straight from the Virginia Police Department website, and that information is copied basically verbatim from §18.2-308.2:2. See below:

"Primary Identification

The primary form of ID shall consist of a valid photo-ID form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or of the prospective purchaser or transferee’s home state that denotes the individual’s name, race, sex, address, and date of birth. Where the primary form is a photo-ID issued by the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV), the dealer shall not transfer a firearm to the prospective purchaser until 30-days after the date of issue of an original or duplicate driver's license unless a copy of his/her DMV driver's record is presented showing that the original date of issue was more than 30-days prior to the attempted purchase.

The primary form of ID for a non-Virginia resident, for the purchase of a rifle or shotgun, must consist of a valid photo-ID issued by a governmental agency of the prospective purchaser’s home state that denote the purchaser’s name, race, sex, date of birth and address. Federal law prohibits the sale or transfer of a handgun to a nonresident of the state in which the handgun is being purchased."

SOURCE: §18.2-308.2:2
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_VFTP.shtm

------

So the obvious question is whether FFL dealers know about this legal requirement? If not, then I should have no problem buying a gun anywhere. As you noted, the Gun Show's website mentions that you need two forms of ID from the state of Virginia to buy a handgun but says nothing about the 30 day requirement.

As for the appropriate forum for this post, I decided to put it here because I'm looking to purchase a Glock, and I wasn't sure where else to post it.

Buy from a privite party= problem solved. You're welcome.

rwrjr
07-15-2007, 05:05
Originally posted by jasonwc
Only two more weeks until I move into my new home in VA :-D
So where did you end up? Arlington or Fairfax?

jasonwc
07-15-2007, 08:19
I should have a lease signed in a day or two for a place in Vienna, about a 5 minute walk from the Vienna/Fairfax GMU Metro Station. I visited 7 places when I came down to VA to look at houses, and the homes in Fairfax were nicer, larger, and cheaper than the ones in Arlington. I also like the more open feel to Fairfax. Central NJ is ridiculously over-developed so it's nice to get away from that.

rwrjr
07-15-2007, 11:29
Originally posted by jasonwc
I should have a lease signed in a day or two for a place in Vienna, about a 5 minute walk from the Vienna/Fairfax GMU Metro Station. I visited 7 places when I came down to VA to look at houses, and the homes in Fairfax were nicer, larger, and cheaper than the ones in Arlington. I also like the more open feel to Fairfax. Central NJ is ridiculously over-developed so it's nice to get away from that.
Welcome to Vienna. I too live in Vienna, although on the other side of town near Wolf Trap. Downtown Vienna, Vienna proper, is a nice little family town. Wolf Trap is a national park for the performing arts. Good place to catch a show. My wife and I bring the kid, a blanket, and dinner with a bottle of wine and sit under the stars on the lawn. The kid usually konks out after the show starts, so we can just sit back and relax with a little good food and music. I highly recommend the annual comedy show at the Barns at Wolf Trap each spring. Cheap tickets and good comedians.

Over by the Vienna Metro is only about 5 minutes from the NRA range. That wasn't a coincidence was it? :)

Man my wife and I both went today, separately because somebody has to watch the kid. She went first and really shot well, then I went and stunk the place up. I've probably shot about 1k+ rounds in the last 2 months, and she's shot about 150 and she's already better than me.

Ron

jasonwc
07-15-2007, 12:40
I'll be sure to check out Wolf Trap when I arrive. My preferred genre of music is Baroque period classical, and I've attended many classical concerts in New York, Boston, Oxford, and London. I'm looking forward to attending concerts at the Kennedy Center which I hear is fantastic.

I still miss the free lunch concerts at St. Martin-in-the-fields church at Trafalgar Square. They had two a week, and it was a great way to hear some new music. The nearly 300 year-old church was also very beautiful. There were also fantastic concerts at Oxford in a 350 year old church a few minutes walk from St. Catherine's (the college I attended at Oxford). I studied at Oxford during Mozart's 250th anniversary, and they had a special Mozart festival there due to the fact that he played in that very theater. The prices were great ($10-20). My girlfriend really enjoyed the Valentine's day Baroque concert which featured period instruments including a harp, clavichord, harpsichord etc.. Despite the ridiculous prices in the UK, and especially London, classical concerts were dirt cheap. I spent 5 pounds (a little over $9) at the time to attend a concert at the London Symphony Orchestra. I believe tickets for children were a little over $5.

By the way, did the $459 Glock 19 from Summit come with stock sights or night sights?

klt1986
07-15-2007, 19:29
Welcome to Virginia! If you want an even slower pace, come on down and visit some of the towns and cities near the Carolina border or the mountains of Southwest VA sometime. Heck you might even think you have entered another country!:supergrin:

jasonwc
07-15-2007, 19:42
I was actually down there a few years ago. My family took a trip to the Blue Ridge Mountains. On our way down from NJ, we stayed at an inn in central VA (Lynchburg) and then drove down on on the eastern border of VA into North Carolina. The area was amazing - certainly nothing like NJ! I remember we took a drive at around 5:30 AM on this small two-lane road that twisted through the Blue Ridge mountains and ran into a wild turkey on the road. We ran into more animals that day on the road than we did cars. I remember being amazed that I could pretty much look for miles in any direction and see mountains and trees. In NJ, you can't get away from strip malls and McMansions. I kind of wish that I had grown up in a more rural area. (I was born in NYC where I lived until I was 7 1/2, and I've lived in a suburb of NJ since then, when I wasn't at college in Massachusetts)

rwrjr
07-15-2007, 20:23
Originally posted by jasonwc
I'll be sure to check out Wolf Trap when I arrive. My preferred genre of music is Baroque period classical, and I've attended many classical concerts in New York, Boston, Oxford, and London. I'm looking forward to attending concerts at the Kennedy Center which I hear is fantastic.

You might like this at the barns: http://www.wolftrap.org/performances/show020808.html

The barns has a little bit of everything. The NSO plays on the big stage next door. The Kennedy Center is great and during non rush hour is a very quick trip from where you'll be moving. During rush hour... well, you'll be reminded of NY. :)

$459 is with stock sights. He had some used gen 2 G19s with night sites for less than $400 but I have no idea if they're gone.

Ron

jasonwc
07-15-2007, 20:47
Tafelmusik! Holy crap, I have 6 CDs from that Orchestra. They're excellent. I will be sure to attend that performance!

Do you think it would be wise for me to purchase a used gun as my first handgun? I've been told by others that you often can get great deals on used guns, and they're usually every bit as reliable as new guns but I still see the new gun as being advantageous because, a) you know that the gun has all new, stock parts which haven't been altered, and b) if there is a problem, GLOCK will fix it for free.

Also, is the only difference between the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Glock 19s the ambidextrous magazine release?

rwrjr
07-16-2007, 06:22
Originally posted by jasonwc
Tafelmusik! Holy crap, I have 6 CDs from that Orchestra. They're excellent. I will be sure to attend that performance!

Do you think it would be wise for me to purchase a used gun as my first handgun? I've been told by others that you often can get great deals on used guns, and they're usually every bit as reliable as new guns but I still see the new gun as being advantageous because, a) you know that the gun has all new, stock parts which haven't been altered, and b) if there is a problem, GLOCK will fix it for free.

Also, is the only difference between the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Glock 19s the ambidextrous magazine release?
My first gun was a used S&W 686. I think if you go used it's wise to go with a gun from a quality manufacturer, get a model that is known for quality, and most important, buy from a reputable source.

Before you make up your mind, give Mark at Summit a call and ask about the used G19s. He's pretty open and will tell you what he knows about the guns he has. I read about 4 months worth of reviews about Summit on GunBroker.com before I sent my first check. He's treated me right since.

Regarding gen 2 & 3. Gen 3 introduced the finger ridges on the front strap of the grip, the thumb rests on the upper grip, and the accessory rail on the dust cover. Neither has an ambi mag release. So all parts in a gen 2 & gen 3 are same, only the frame is different. FWIW, I'll probably never use the rail and the finger ridges don't do anything for me, so a gen 2 frame is the equal of a gen 3 frame in my eyes.

I believe that some versions of the new G21sf are the only model in the US to have an ambi release.

As far as a "great deal" on used guns goes, well that is subjective. Glocks really hold their value. I think that speaks to both the quality of Glocks and the market. You won't find a nice used Glock for half the price of what Summit charges for new. Before I bought my used 686, I searched the S&W boards and gunbroker so I had a good idea of what they were going for. Somehow I stumbled upon Summit and he had them for a tad cheaper than the average so I went with him after confirming his reputation.

klt1986
07-16-2007, 19:27
Originally posted by jasonwc
Tafelmusik! Holy crap, I have 6 CDs from that Orchestra. They're excellent. I will be sure to attend that performance!

Do you think it would be wise for me to purchase a used gun as my first handgun? I've been told by others that you often can get great deals on used guns, and they're usually every bit as reliable as new guns but I still see the new gun as being advantageous because, a) you know that the gun has all new, stock parts which haven't been altered, and b) if there is a problem, GLOCK will fix it for free.

Also, is the only difference between the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Glock 19s the ambidextrous magazine release?

jasonwc,

Check your PM's.

Jeff82
08-05-2007, 13:20
Originally posted by jasonwc
would you recommend against purchasing used magazines?
Not trying to be facetious here, just trying to alleviate worry through establishment of a logic train...

Do you have any problems with your own magazines (assuming you've fired the gun with them), they are "used" too. Why would anyone else's be any different(outside of obvious damage)? What will you do if one of your mags starts acting up? Same thing you'd do with a "used" one you've bought. Replace parts and drive on.

BTW, Take all your Glock guns and mags to a GSSF match and the armorer will replace anything defective on the spot. For free. Great bonus for being a GSSF member.

Dan
08-07-2007, 21:14
Jasonwc,

I use to be stationed at Willow Grove NAS in PA and worked at Lakehurst and Fort Dix a lot. I can tell you this about my experience with NJ... I hated it! Never knew there was such an Anti-Military state that ever existed.

Now stationed back at Norfolk and bought my house in Blue Ridge (above Roaoke), I love being back in VA. There is nothing that would ever make me go back to NJ ever. That state can ROT!

jasonwc
08-07-2007, 21:42
After finishing a long week of classes in preparation for law school (8-5 Monday-Saturday in NYC) I went to the range with one of my friends. This time they had the 17 available for rent. I found the 17 to be extremely comfortable to shoot and I was more accurate with it than the 19 at 10 yards. I'm not sure whether it's me that's getting better or the gun. Anyways, I really enjoyed shooting the 17. Now I'm not sure which to get. My friend who has large hands also enjoyed the 17 and found it much easier to shoot than the 19. I wanted to try out the 21 but the range closed early on Monday.

While the 19 is easier to carry, I'm not sure how much of any opportunity I would have to carry anyways considering I can't carry on University property which is where I'll be the vast majority of the time, when I'm not at home. So, either gun will probably be used as a range gun. What do you guys think - should I go with a 17 or 19? I enjoy shooting both.

Jeff82
08-08-2007, 08:22
Originally posted by jasonwc
After finishing a long week of classes in preparation for law school (8-5 Monday-Saturday in NYC) I went to the range with one of my friends. This time they had the 17 available for rent. I found the 17 to be extremely comfortable to shoot and I was more accurate with it than the 19 at 10 yards. I'm not sure whether it's me that's getting better or the gun. Anyways, I really enjoyed shooting the 17. Now I'm not sure which to get. My friend who has large hands also enjoyed the 17 and found it much easier to shoot than the 19. I wanted to try out the 21 but the range closed early on Monday.

While the 19 is easier to carry, I'm not sure how much of any opportunity I would have to carry anyways considering I can't carry on University property which is where I'll be the vast majority of the time, when I'm not at home. So, either gun will probably be used as a range gun. What do you guys think - should I go with a 17 or 19? I enjoy shooting both. You're a smart guy. You know the right answer. You know what you should do. You know what you're going to do. You just need to "reevaluate" the important things in your life, "reorganise" a bit, "realign" certain priorities, and then "refinance" so you can get both of them!! :tongueout:

RussP
08-08-2007, 15:23
Originally posted by Jeff82
...so you can get both of them!! :tongueout: You're going to do it sooner or later...

Rent both...Shoot two mags with one...then two mags with the other.

Whichever feels best, buy it. Then put the other on lay-away. :banana: