So what's the deal? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Hines57
07-14-2007, 21:06
Man, this Ohio law is driving me crazy. I was in Sam's Club yesterday and happened to walk buy an isle with wine for sale. Right on top was a sign that said I was violating the law if I was carrying in the building due to the alcohol sale.

So are grocery stores off limits?

:freak:

skyboss_4evr
07-14-2007, 23:54
No. Ohio law prohibits CCW in establishments that sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. Grocery stores are not off limits.

firedog978
07-15-2007, 06:58
Originally posted by skyboss_4evr
No. Ohio law prohibits CCW in establishments that sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. Grocery stores are not off limits.

You are absolutely correct. ONLY establishments where it is sold AND dispensed for consumption is off limits.

From the Ohio Attorney General's website:
_____________________________________________________________________
Premises that dispense liquor. Concealed firearms are also
banned in a room or arena in which liquor is dispensed for
which a class D permit has been issued. A class D permit is
generally issued to an establishment that sells alcohol for
consumption on the premises. Be certain of the type of permit
before you enter. Note also that a liquor permit extends to
beverages that contain alcohol, not simply hard liquor. Beer,
wine, mixers and the like are covered.
_____________________________________________________________________

Note the word, DISPENSED


I've noted that some gas stations (with mini-marts) also have signage like this. I've spoken to the attendants on several occasions to inform them that they are wrong. The standard answer is that it is a corporate decision. The litmus test would be, purchase a bottle of wine at the grocery or gas station, pay for it and sit down on their premises to drink it (unarmed of course). See if they don't call the police and you get charged with violating an 'open flask' law. If no consumption of alcohol on premises is allowed, then ccw there (unless the business voluntarilly posts properly), is permitted.

degoodman
07-15-2007, 12:28
Originally posted by firedog978
You are absolutely correct. ONLY establishments where it is sold AND dispensed for consumption is off limits.

From the Ohio Attorney General's website:
_____________________________________________________________________
Premises that dispense liquor. Concealed firearms are also
banned in a room or arena in which liquor is dispensed for
which a class D permit has been issued. A class D permit is
generally issued to an establishment that sells alcohol for
consumption on the premises. Be certain of the type of permit
before you enter. Note also that a liquor permit extends to
beverages that contain alcohol, not simply hard liquor. Beer,
wine, mixers and the like are covered.
_____________________________________________________________________

Note the word, DISPENSED


I've noted that some gas stations (with mini-marts) also have signage like this. I've spoken to the attendants on several occasions to inform them that they are wrong. The standard answer is that it is a corporate decision. The litmus test would be, purchase a bottle of wine at the grocery or gas station, pay for it and sit down on their premises to drink it (unarmed of course). See if they don't call the police and you get charged with violating an 'open flask' law. If no consumption of alcohol on premises is allowed, then ccw there (unless the business voluntarilly posts properly), is permitted.

Are you an attorney? Wanna be a test case, with FELONY penalties for being wrong?

The FACT of the matter here is that despite vigerous assumptions from people who claim to know the answer, this is a gigantic grey area in the law as curently written. Here are the problems:

1. The word "dispense" is not defined in the ohio revised code. The websters definition (one that rarely applies where the law is concerned BTW) defines dispense as "to sell by portions." Whole bottles of wine liquor or beer are portions, and they're being sold.

2. Everyone wants to take a leap on the "for consumption on the premises" thing. Here's the problem there. The word consumption appears NOWHERE in the CCW statutes. The only words in there are the prohibition in a room for which a class D liquor permit has been issued. Whether sold for consumption on premises or not does not matter. Those words are simply not in the statute. They appear in a pamphlet published by the AG, under the warning that the pamphlet is not legal advice of any kind, and that has no binding effect on any judge or jury in the state.

3. Any place that sells alcohol on sunday has a class D permit. There is no language in the ORC that exempts the D-6 permit for sunday sales from the rest of the class D permits for CCW purposes. Period.

For CCW in a D-6 establishment to be legal is going to take a favorable finding by an appealate court in this state that is affirmed by the OSC, after someone is found GUILTY and appeals the verdict. Until then the black letter law on this one is brutally clear, and that is that if sunday sales are permitted a D-6 permiit has been issued, and CCW is off limits on that basis.

To get a real correction on this, we need one of three things to happen. Remove the liqour permit requirement entirely, rewrite the rules on the liqour establishment provision to a 51% rule or something similar, or, and this is probably the best choice because it could be framed as an "administrative correction" as opposed to a "gun bill" which draw far more opposition, reclassify the D-6 permit as a class C permit which is where it really belongs anyway.

firedog978
07-15-2007, 14:30
Originally posted by degoodman
Are you an attorney? Wanna be a test case, with FELONY penalties for being wrong?



No, I'm not an attorney. Nor do I wish to be a test case.

However, it stands to reason that I am JUST AS CRRECT as you are. Has this been prosecuted yet in Ohio? If yes you'd have given the answer to that outcome. Has numerous opportunity been available for it to be prosecuted? Yes, I am aware of a number of Ohio CCW'ers that have had cause to be known armed in grocery stores and these gas stations I mentioned. Times when LEO's have been on the scenes.

Do we need to have the laws in Ohio clarified more clearly Yes. Do we need some of the changes you mentioned (51%)? Yes. Still, there isn't any prosecution of the OP's original question that I know of. Do you? Desiring our laws to be changed or even clearly clarified is a good thing. Using them (the laws) in their current state to make a political point for it isn't.

BTW, you asked if I was an attorney. I'll pose that same question to you?

Hines57
07-15-2007, 16:58
Ok, so I'm not the only one that has questions then. The odd thing was that they weren't posted out front, just in the wine department.

Racsan
07-16-2007, 07:47
Originally posted by firedog978
Note the word, DISPENSED

I think the main problem is that ORC does not specifically define 'Dispensed'. However I have seen others cite case law where 'Dispensed' included sold and given away so who knows.

Gentle pressure on the legislature to address this is the only sure way to get this clarified. However it is still hard to get them past the alcohol/guns fearmongering.

Linda
07-16-2007, 12:44
Dispensed! Interesting word, isn't it? When talking about liquor one would "presume" that it means consumed on premises. Keeping in mind, no where in the law does it talk about consuming. Now, take that word dispense, and what does a pharmacists do? They "dispense" medication. Now we presume, that we are not consuming our dispensed drugs right there at the drug store. So that puts an intersting slant on the word "dispense" now, doesn't it?

And there has been a guy tagged up in Marion Cty for carrying in a Walmart. Case has not gone to trial, but sucks to be him being the test case for all of us.

Speaking of Walmarts, they sell liquor AND they sell guns. Hmmmm....,interesting concept when you think about it.:sad:

anyplainjoe
07-16-2007, 13:05
This is a Ken Hansen question.

Linda
07-16-2007, 21:38
Originally posted by anyplainjoe
This is a Ken Hansen question.

My answer was a Ken Hanson answer. Ken and I are both leaders with Buckeye Firearms. Ken also does the law presentation for my concealed carry classes that I instruct. I've heard this same speech dozens of times from Ken. Ken and I have had meetings in the Statehouse with Senators and State Representatives about this very issue. They were all shocked that they had created this mess for law abiding citizens.

When HB12 was originally passed, we all knew it was flawed. The whole D license section was messed up from the get go. We all know that what they meant was we could not carry in bars, restaurants that serve liquor, etc. But because the legislature inadverently didn't spell out specifically what they meant, they technically left it open to someone going to Kroger's to buy their loaf of bread and getting nailed because they entered a business that "dispenses" alcohol.

I mentioned in my last post about the guy in Marion getting tagged for this same thing while merely buying groceries at Walmart. We'll all have to stay tuned to see what the outcome will be on this. He has the best representation around!!:thumbsup:

firedog978
07-17-2007, 05:39
Originally posted by Linda
My answer was a Ken Hanson answer. Ken and I are both leaders with Buckeye Firearms. Ken also does the law presentation for my concealed carry classes that I instruct. I've heard this same speech dozens of times from Ken. Ken and I have had meetings in the Statehouse with Senators and State Representatives about this very issue. They were all shocked that they had created this mess for law abiding citizens.

When HB12 was originally passed, we all knew it was flawed. The whole D license section was messed up from the get go. We all know that what they meant was we could not carry in bars, restaurants that serve liquor, etc. But because the legislature inadverently didn't spell out specifically what they meant, they technically left it open to someone going to Kroger's to buy their loaf of bread and getting nailed because they entered a business that "dispenses" alcohol.

I mentioned in my last post about the guy in Marion getting tagged for this same thing while merely buying groceries at Walmart. We'll all have to stay tuned to see what the outcome will be on this. He has the best representation around!!:thumbsup:

Linda,

Excellent information from Ken's perspective as a leading authority on this issue.
I am curious as to the guy tagged in Marion. Not being familiar with the political make-up of Marion; is it anti-gun? I ask because I am aware of a number of incidents involving Ohio CCW licensees known by LEO's (while investigating instances) to be carrying in those establishments and not tagged or charged. All occurred in Hamilton, Clermont or Butler counties. It appears that it may be dependent on the political make-up of where it occurs? The more lenient perhaps taking the ORC to mean 'dispensing' for on premises consumption and the more stern, taking it to mean simply selling. As with a number of things in our State's CCW laws; it can depend on where in Ohio you are.
One thing is sure. We need it cleared up one way or the other. Hopefully, the Marion case will turn out alright for the guy and, set legal precedent for the law in his (our) favor.

Linda
07-17-2007, 06:04
From my understanding, Marion is not very gun friendly.

Here's what I know about this case. Because this guy is a client of Ken's, and the confidentiallity relationship, I only know of what happened prior to him becoming a client.

It was mid-May. Guy pulls into his parking spot. Gun holstered on his person. Guy throws on his coat. I don't recall if he was in or out of his car when he put his coat on. My assumption is that this is when someone called in a man with gun call. Guy precedes to be in Walmart for 45-60 minutes buying his groceries. Deputy comes up to him and asks if he has a gun. Guy complies and informs. Deputy asks him to step out to parking lot. Deputy takes the gun and his CHL. Claims guy can't carry in Walmart because of D license, blah blah blah.

So yes Ohio, there has been at least one person who has been dinged because of the flawed D dispensing issue. Of all places, at Walmart! Be careful out there until we can get this fixed!

TurboRocket
07-30-2007, 20:28
Wow :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

That's a real eye-opener regarding the Class D Sunday sale thing. That really sucks. What are the prospects and possible time-table fo this getting fixed?

Matt VDW
07-31-2007, 23:53
Just a point of grammar, which of course may or may not have anything to do with the how the law is enforced:

The word "dispense" is not defined in the ohio revised code. The websters definition (one that rarely applies where the law is concerned BTW) defines dispense as "to sell by portions."
Let's go one step further and look at the definition of "portion":

" an individual's part or share of something"
also
"an often limited part set off or abstracted from a whole"
http://www.webster.com/dictionary/portion

So a store that sells six-packs of beer and bottles of wine is not really selling "portions" because those aren't individual servings, nor are they "abstracted from a whole" as a drink poured from a beer keg or from a bottle of liquor would be.

Now, take that word dispense, and what does a pharmacists do? They "dispense" medication.
Yes, the pharmacist typically counts out a number of pills or measures out an amount of liquid from a bulk container. Although the medicine is not intended to be consumed on the premises, the prescription does specify how and when it should be taken.

Just my $0.02.