Efficacy of the 22 LR [Archive] - Glock Talk

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New_comer
07-28-2007, 21:30
Hi, all :supergrin:

Do we have some data or pictures of actual field testing of locally availabe 22LR ammo in FMJ, softpoint or hollowpoint varieties against common BG substitutes, like watermelons, pineapples, banana trunks, wet magazines, playdoh , water jugs, roadkill, rats, palo tsina wood planks, old refs, glass panes, etc.

Purpose of this would be to debunk misconceptions or maybe confirm myths on the effectiveness or worthlessness of the round as a self defense caliber. Nothing scientific or anything of the sort, just real world field testing so that in seeing, we just might believe... ;)

Thanks! :thumbsup:

revo
07-28-2007, 22:58
Watch the movie 'Munich'.

That should change your mind about whether the .22 can kill or not.

isuzu
07-28-2007, 23:08
I posted sometime last year about my neighbor's brother-in-law who shot a BG who tried to rob their lending firm with a .22 Beretta loaded with CCI Stingers. That was about two months before we left the Philippines.

There were 5 BGs who entered the office and they were armed with .45s. My neighbor's brother-in-law was the manager of the lending firm and he was seated behind the cash counter. The BG was pointing his .45 at him while demanding cash. The BG thought he was still getting cash from the drawer, but in fact the manager was already pulling out the .22.

He shot the BG once in the chest. The distance was about 5-7 ft. The BG spun but was able to fire his pistol several times hitting one of the office personnel in the lower back. The person now walks with a limp. The BG was incapacitated and was brought to the hospital where he died. The BG's companions abandoned him when they saw him being shot. Nag unahan daw sa pintuan.

I asked my neighbor why his brother-in-law didn't fire twice or shoot the BG until he was down. My neighbor told me that his brother-in-law was just new to guns. At least he had the presence of mind and the guts to fight it out with the BGs.

isuzu
07-28-2007, 23:09
Originally posted by revo
Watch the movie 'Munich'.

That should change your mind about whether the .22 can kill or not.

Did the guys from Brotherhood of the Rose also use .22s?

JimBianchi
07-28-2007, 23:16
A .22 almost killed Reagan.

Very under rated round.

PMMA97
07-29-2007, 04:08
The 8 shooter .22LR German revolver in my avatar belonged to my late father who was a former M/Sgt. in the Phil. Marines.

It was an issued pistol that he later bought from the private security and lending firm (ALC group of companies) where he worked as an intel officer. It was always his CCW of choice because he told me that it never failed him in enforcing his job and even in his sorties with kababayan politicos in Bicol.

He had a .38 and a .45 but the .22LR was his buddy.

Th pistol still fires true up to this day.

s.g
07-29-2007, 05:40
Isuzu,

Was it a 2-inch barelled Beretta 21a used in the incident you mentioned or something else?

Thank you,

asian_glockster
07-29-2007, 05:41
cal .22?

I don't want to be shot by a .22.....

kahit na anong kalibre, ayaw........

antediluvianist
07-29-2007, 07:26
Certainly a .22 can kill. The point of those who criticize the .22 is that - UNLESS SHOT PLACEMENT IS EXCELLENT - the bad guy will still be able to kill you after he is hit by a .22. Sure, a .22 slug into the heart or eye or forehead or spine will probably stop the guy, but in a real, stressful situation that is a lucky shot.

A .38 or 9mm or .40 or .45 or .44 ALSO into the heart or eye or forehead or spine will do all the damage that a .22 will do, and much more. More importantly, such much more massive slugs - about 4 to 9 times as much mass as a .22, depending on the particular .22 slug and the particular .38/9mm/.40/.45/.44 slug - will do much more damage to a hit in the balls, intestines, lungs, cheek, back, and all those other nice places. Then there's the size-of-hole/bleed-out factor. Multiple hits with a hollowpoint .22? Well, multiple hits with a hollowpoint .38/9mm/.40/.45/.44 will transfer much more energy.

As they say, use the largest caliber that you can hit accurately with. If it's a .22, fine. But most adults can handle at least a .38 or a 9mm. Darwin showed me a .38 wadcutter-slug round intended for anti-personnel use, not target practice. Good-size hole, but very controllable recoil.

New_comer
07-29-2007, 08:25
Fantastic replies so far, thanks for the inputs :thumbsup:

No question about the inherent destructive advantages of the bigger calibers. Given the greater energy to work with, you'd expect greater tissue trauma, deeper penetration, or for the exotic ammo, trading a little penetration for a mini-blast effect upon impact, obliterating the tissue surrounding POI. A bit over the edge, but really are currently available, albeit at a steep price. :shocked:

I'd like us to focus more on the diminutive caliber at this time, for anyone out there who has data, pictures, websites, on-going field tests or even fun experiments on this oft-forgotten defensive round.

Even defensive techniques to 'equalize' a seemingly hopeless situation should you be armed only with a 22lr. Thanks again...

Allegra
07-29-2007, 09:11
Imagine a guy w/ a jungle bolo rushing you while your armed w/ your trusty 22

I did see someone shoot a druggie with a 22 kaso di tinamaan so didnt see how effective

isuzu
07-29-2007, 15:31
Originally posted by s.g
Isuzu,

Was it a 2-inch barelled Beretta 21a used in the incident you mentioned or something else?

Thank you,

My neighbor told me it was a .22 Beretta with a tip up barrel. Not exactly sure what model, though.

chowchow
07-29-2007, 15:54
I remember during student days in the hospital in 1987. A fatbellied (beer drinker type) guy came walking to the nursing desk, calmly told us he had been shot close range. He looked and sounded normal. We asked where and he said right here in my belly. Raised his shirt and we hardly even can see a hole. Some blood stains but not much . He said it was a friend of his on an argument . Yayaya, good his fat pads took on the bullet and it was only a .22LR.
Then we led him to the ER after that. Ambulatory and in no distress. Amazing.

isuzu
07-29-2007, 16:00
Was there any damage to his intestines, though? There was one guy I know back home who was shot with a .22 lr rifle in the stomach by a homosexual who wanted him bad. According to him, the doctor had to open him up and check his intestines for holes. He lost a good portion of his small intestines.

chowchow
07-29-2007, 16:05
I m not sure what happened after that. I was only a student. The hospital was provincial runned. I bet he was lucky or he could have had more internal damage than was seen at first. .22 LR s can be deadly as they can be slow killers causing internal bleeding.

chowchow
07-29-2007, 16:11
Much more if its a .22LR HP. It will blow a bigger hole through and turn those intestines to jelly (from blood clots). Bacteremia can set in quicker than you think,

Poodle
07-29-2007, 16:46
A .22 can kill, no doubt about it. The question is "when"? Shot placement comes into play with a .22 bullet.

The objective is to incapacitate the aggressor the soonest possible time as to render him inoperative. It's more difficult to do it with a .22 bullet on a self defense situation.

In the movies, we see some operatives who use the .22 as weapon of choice, but this would be in situations where he has the advantage of stealth and can well put his shots in critical body parts.

There's a range boy (Rommel) in Armscor Marikina who knows somebody who was shot multiple times with a .22, the guy survived. Lucky.

And then, I know that cats hit by a .22 in the head, lateral chest area and in between the shoulder blades would immediately be incapacitated. Don't ask how I know.

New_comer
07-29-2007, 17:30
Originally posted by Poodle
A .22 can kill, no doubt about it. The question is "when"? Shot placement comes into play with a .22 bullet.

...

And then, I know that cats hit by a .22 in the head, lateral chest area and in between the shoulder blades would immediately be incapacitated. Don't ask how I know.
:shocked: :supergrin:

chowchow
07-29-2007, 17:40
MAgkano Armscor .22 LR 50 rd /box dyan ? Aber maraming mga pusa na naka lakadlakad sa paligid.:wavey:

New_comer
07-29-2007, 18:10
Can we say that a 22lr wound channel have the same traumatic effect as a stab with an ice pick? Yung nakakauwi pa ang victim, and then succumbs to internal bleeding...

Can we conclude that for a 22 to be effective, soft tissue target is a must? Any data that it cannot penetrate the bones of a ribcage for a more critical hit? Where was Reagan's entry wound that almost killed him? Would a hit at the side be more effective than up front given the more generous spacing of the ribs there?

Questions, questions... answers leading to more questions... ;)

PMMA97
07-29-2007, 18:27
Originally posted by Poodle

And then, I know that cats hit by a .22 in the head, lateral chest area and in between the shoulder blades would immediately be incapacitated. Don't ask how I know.

Convent cats? :supergrin: Thou shall not kill Father :)

antediluvianist
07-29-2007, 18:37
But if you come across a cat who packs a .38/9mm/.40/.44/.45, you will be outgunned.

chowchow
07-29-2007, 19:09
[QUOTE]Originally posted by New_comer
Can we say that a 22lr wound channel have the same traumatic effect as a stab with an ice pick? Yung nakakauwi pa ang victim, and then succumbs to internal bleeding...

Can we conclude that for a 22 to be effective, soft tissue target is a must? Any data that it cannot penetrate the bones of a ribcage for a more critical hit? Where was Reagan's entry wound that almost killed him? Would a hit at the side be more effective than up front given the more generous spacing of the ribs there?

Questions, questions... answers leading to more questions... ;) [/QUOT

Pasuerte lang ang outcome ng kahit anong kalibre ginagamit. If it hits the head with adequate penetration, patay. Same with chest hits to the heart, aorta or vena cavas. Internal bleeding ang kaibigan for a successful .22 lr kill IMHO.

Poodle
07-29-2007, 21:36
Originally posted by chowchow
MAgkano Armscor .22 LR 50 rd /box dyan ? Aber maraming mga pusa na naka lakadlakad sa paligid.:wavey:

Pag member ng Armscor nasa P150 lang per box. Mura na din. Walang reload dun, kaya lang nag-KB minsan-minsan.

Dati mga nasa 50 plus ang stray cats dito sa compound namin eh. Pinahuli namin ang iba, yung iba kinausap namin na lumisan na at wag nila hunting ang mga rabbit, love birds at manok tagalog namin. Me mga makukulit na pasaway. Pero parang na-peste naman sila (me virus ata ng pusa na kumalat) at naubos din. Me mga mababait na lang na pusa na natira dito ngayon. Naubos yung mga pasaway.

isuzu
07-29-2007, 21:44
Originally posted by New_comer
Can we say that a 22lr wound channel have the same traumatic effect as a stab with an ice pick? Yung nakakauwi pa ang victim, and then succumbs to internal bleeding...

One of the posts indicated that Reagan nearly died from a .22lr. Had it not been for a quick-thinking Secret Service agent who searched Reagan's head for gunshot wounds and took shirt off to further check him, he would have succombed to the gunshot wound.

In my experience, standard velocity rounds stop rats dead in its tracks. When I use high velocity rounds, the rats always manage to run back to its hole and die.

Poodle
07-29-2007, 22:04
Originally posted by isuzu
One of the posts indicated that Reagan nearly died from a .22lr. Had it not been for a quick-thinking Secret Service agent who searched Reagan's head for gunshot wounds and took shirt off to further check him, he would have succombed to the gunshot wound.

In my experience, standard velocity rounds stop rats dead in its tracks. When I use high velocity rounds, the rats always manage to run back to its hole and die.

Ok ah. Subsonic rounds kaya?

Dok
07-29-2007, 23:56
high velocity 22lr.- can penetrate through and through a 2x2 block of wood fired from a 20 inch barrel rifle 10 feet away. my experience anyway:supergrin:

New_comer
07-30-2007, 17:58
How fast does a 22lr exit from a 4" barrel? Will hi-velocity rounds still go supersonic using pistols not rifles?

Will a typical airgun outperform a 22lr fired from a compact pistol like the Walther P22?

JimBianchi
07-30-2007, 18:51
Most 22LR ammo can put out about 100 Foot Pounds Energy at the barrel. (that's 40 grain bullet going 1100 feet per second or 107 FPE)

The best custom/high end air pistol can maybe match that for much a lot of money!!! (It would have to shoot .25 cal or larger. .22 cal pellets arenít big enough)

Your average air pistol in CO2 or pumper puts out about 6 FPE. (That is not a misprint. About .177 caliber 8 grain pellet going 400 to 500 FPS in .177. In .22, 14 grain pellets going 350 to 400 FPS).

With a full tune, you can get close to 12 FPE.

A sparrow can be killed with only 3 or 4 FPE with a solid head shot.

Which means that with the correct pellets/air pistol combo you could take sparrows at 30 yards. And it would be nearly silent. (Kill zone on a sparrow is the size of a US nickel. Tough shot with any pistol!)

But a nice .22 pistol with good ammo can drop much larger game (rabbits or crows) with head shots at longer distance more consistently. But not silently, unless you can legally own a silencer. (I killed a 10 pound monster Snowshoe Hare in Alaska with a Ruger Mark II .22 cal, off hand, open sights, at 40 yards. Chest shot and he dropped dead. I was lucky.)

I donít usually hunt with my air pistols because of the power limits. My air rifles are another matter. I can get 20+ FPE and be silent still. (Some big big money guns get over 200 FPE and a very few big bores get 600 FPE!)

Airguns and .22 pistols each have a place in your arsenal.

Poodle
07-30-2007, 18:56
Originally posted by New_comer
How fast does a 22lr exit from a 4" barrel? Will hi-velocity rounds still go supersonic using pistols not rifles?

Will a typical airgun outperform a 22lr fired from a compact pistol like the Walther P22?

I think that a high velocity round will still go supersonic even if fired from a pistol, though we need to check it with a chronometer though.

A typical airgun will generally not outperform a 22lr round. At 35 meters, the airgun pellet (fired from a typical Armscor airgun) would have a grouping of 3 inches. The subsonic round fired from a Remington rifle still has a flat trajectory at 65 meters. The energy of the airgun pellet will also be less than that of a 22lr round so its destructive power will be considerably less.

Dok
07-30-2007, 19:13
a 22lr will give its best maximum velocity on a 16 inch barrel.

isuzu
07-30-2007, 20:05
Originally posted by Poodle
Ok ah. Subsonic rounds kaya?

Haven't had any experience with subsonic rounds when I was still living there. Didn't know that Armscoc had them. But I'm sure they'll be effective, too.