Identifying a Real "Baby" [Archive] - Glock Talk

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bisoy
07-30-2007, 03:09
good day gentlemen. i would like to ask from you how to identify if an m16 unit is a real "baby" or a converted one. i am new to m16 rifles so pictures would help a lot.

my second question is... what do i check in general to be sure that i am buying a good gun? what do i check and how do i check it?

thanks in advance.

charlie-xray
07-30-2007, 04:30
Originally shared by Sir Isuzu I think, am not sure. But here it is.

There are several things that you might want to look. Make sure that the owner allows you to field strip the rifle. If he doesn't allow you to field strip the rifle, walk away from it. Here are some things that I look when buying an M16.

1. Look at the appearance of the rifle. Look for signs of excessive wear on the finish; check if the rifle has been refinished (anodized for aluminum) and check for cracks on the stock and forearm. You may also want to check if the contact areas of the disassembly pins if are worn out. There are some that had the front pin holes re-welded. Wiggle the front and rear sights. If there's play on the rear sights, that could be a problem. It also speaks of the rifle's age and how it was maintained.

2. Pull the trigger (make sure the rifle's empty). If you notice any of the pins that are related to the trigger group "walks" or is loose, you won't get constistent trigger pulls. Again, this is a sign of an aging rifle and an improperly maintained rifle. A rifle that is fairly new has an authoritative sound when the hammer drops. A rifle with a weak hammer spring doesn't.

3. Make sure that the barrel is not worn out. If it's a chrome bore barrel, you're in luck. They usually last three times as much as a non-chrome barrel. Take the flash hider out, and insert a 5.56mm ammo into the bore. If the bullet goes through, then, it's a worn out barrel.

4. Try and get a chamber erosion gauge. It's a rod that you pass through the chamber. It has two readings at the end of the barrel. If the second ring on the rod shows, then the chamber is eroded.

5. Check the bolt carrier for excessive wear. Disassemble it. Check for burrs and excessive erosion on the bolt face. There is also a go-no-go gauge for the firing pin called firing pin protrusion gauge. Excessive firing pin protrusion can cause catastrophic damage on the rifle. Check the bolt cam pin. Check if it's worn out. Check the bolt carrier key if it's loose or not.

6. One important thing to watch out for is the gas bolt rings. To test if they're still okay, remove the firing pin retaining pin, the firing pin, and the bolt cam pin. Hold the bolt carrier assembly upside down. If the bolt falls, the rings are worn out.

7. The next thing to check is the recoil buffer and the action (recoil) spring. Check for cracks on the buffer. If memory serves me right, the correct length for a standard action spring is somewhere in the 18.5 inch length.

8. Check the orientation of the rear sight. If it's in the middle, chances are you have an aligned barrel. If the rear sight's orientation is abnormally on either side, The barrel could be bent.

bisoy
07-30-2007, 16:44
thanks for the repost. yes, i have read and printed that post for my reference na. how do we identify a real "baby" from a converted one? yan ang hindi ko mahanap dito sa bogs.

thanks in advance gentlemen.

Eye Cutter
07-30-2007, 18:07
i myself do not know a lot about rifles. this would be informative for everybody.

i used to own a converted cut-back "baby" elisco when transport permits for rifles where still being issued. When Gen. Lomibao revoked these permits, i sold mine and got a new pistol instead.

the most common conversion is cutting the barrel to "baby" length. i don't know if they re-crown the barrel after cutting. this probabaly is the reason why converted "babies" have poor accuracy.

when i still had my rifle, Major Tuliao zeroed it at around 70 or so meters bec. that was the longest bay available at the armscor ranges in marikina. accuracy was dead-on so i had no complaints then.

i'm not sure about how they make it cycle reliably. from what i understand, a shorter barrel will lose more gas than standard length barrels before it enters the gas tube. tama po ba?

since the m16 is gas operated, you need a certain amount entering the gas tube to push back the bolt. they change the springs to a lower rating and a lighter weight buffer to get around this problem but at the expense of battering and out of sync cycling (jam).

of course, if you are offered a "baby" and you're not sure if it is the real deal or not, you can have the barrel replaced with an aftermarket part. the cost must be more than what you paid for the whole "baby".

that's why a lot of civilians who want to have m16's opt to get full size rifles instead and just get conversion barrels later.

3kings
07-30-2007, 18:56
doc ec is correct.

if u plan to get one. talk to the seller have it checked and arrange to use it in the range. waste a 3-5 magz of ammo (buyers expense). shoot semi and full auto. if no jamms, purchase it. sight alignment/zeroing is easy. give importance on the jamming issue.

bisoy
07-30-2007, 19:04
noted sir. thanks.please keep your inputs coming.

isuzu
07-30-2007, 19:22
An original Elisco carbine or "baby" has a 16" barrel and an aluminum buttstock. The handguards have a more plastic feel than a rubberized one plus it has heatshields.

An original Colt "baby" has 14.5" barrel and most probably chromebored. The finish is kinda greenish compared to the Elisco rifle. Most have plastic buttstocks; some (the earlier versions)have aluminum.

An Elisco "baby" with a 14.5" is most probably a conversion. Gunsmiths cut the 20" barrel by the gas port which is approximately 14.5" from the chamber end of the barrel.

Remember, Elisco has not produced a commando length "baby." What you have in the market are mostly converted ones. And Elisco's barrels are non-chromelined.

Another thing that you can distinguish a real "baby" from a fake one is the buttstock and handguards. Again, the fake ones have a rubbery handguard with no heatshields and they deform only after firing a couple of magazines or feel sticky after spraying WD-40 or solvents and gunlubes. The recoil spring/buffer tube is also poorly-made.

Other enterprising "dealers" invest in good quality handguards and retractable kits and be able to pass them as originals to unsuspecting buyers.

bisoy
07-30-2007, 19:27
you have to excuse my ignorance sir but i have to ask how do you measure the barrel length? from what point upto what point do we measure? in your case, how would you measure it? pls explain in lay man's term. i am still a "virgin" when it comes to these rifles.

thanks.

isuzu
07-30-2007, 20:02
Originally posted by bisoy
you have to excuse my ignorance sir but i have to ask how do you measure the barrel length? from what point upto what point do we measure? in your case, how would you measure it? pls explain in lay man's term. i am still a "virgin" when it comes to these rifles.

thanks.

Start from the chamber end to the tip of the barrel.

bisoy
07-30-2007, 22:34
chamber as in kung hanggang saan seated ang bala? tip of the barrel minus the flash hider ba? can all the flash hider be unscrewed?

cebuboy
07-31-2007, 04:47
yes the fh can be removed. If you happen to be in cebu, you can drop by kamagong gun club, you can learn a lot about rifles there:) but for the mean time our firing range is closed :crying:

mikol
07-31-2007, 07:58
Originally posted by cebuboy
yes the fh can be removed. If you happen to be in cebu, you can drop by kamagong gun club, you can learn a lot about rifles there:) but for the mean time our firing range is closed :crying:
bro what happened?
read it in karlon's column yesterday.:shocked:
sayang naman kung ililipat pa sa malayong lugar, e ok na sana yung location ngayon.:sad:

bisoy
07-31-2007, 16:52
Originally posted by cebuboy
yes the fh can be removed. If you happen to be in cebu, you can drop by kamagong gun club, you can learn a lot about rifles there:) but for the mean time our firing range is closed :crying:

thanks for the invitation. i go to cebu once in a while. i hope i can meet you guys soon.

CatsMeow
07-31-2007, 18:57
Our firing range is no more, thanks to the CentCom. What a pity, just joined a month ago. Hope the new range will be much better.

Say, cebuboy, do you know any other range we can shoot in? Not shooting for months feels like the gun ban all over again.:sad:

Ferdz
08-01-2007, 07:30
A converted M-16A1 into a "baby armalite" can no longer use the M16 bayonet is what I have noticed coz the distance between the front sight and flashider is too short to properly mount the cold steel up front. An original M653 carbine or M4 carbine with their 14.5" barrels accept M16 bayonets easily. :supergrin:

My licensed General Motors M16A1 rifle was converted by simply adding an orig Elisco M653 upper receiver with a 14.5" barrel to it and replacing the fixed buttstock with a retractable buttstock. ;)

charlie-xray
08-01-2007, 07:34
For us newbies.

:needspics: