Does everyone here carry with a round chambered?

[eric green]

Do most people who carry, carry with a round in the chamber ready to go...?

[DocwithGlock]

Originally posted by eric green
Do most people who carry, carry with a round in the chamber ready to go...?

Yes! And I keep air in the spare tire on the back of my truck too. That way it is useable if and when I need it:thumbsup:

[Nessy]

I do ... in a proper holster. When it comes to drawing, valuable time is lost if you still have to rack the slide.

[360]

Yes.

[Poppa Bear]

I carry a G22, Why would I want something that size if I it was not ready to use?

It is big enough to do some damage as a club, which is what a weapon without a round in the chamber is, but I would rather use as it was intended and designed.

[lcarreau]

My primary carry has one chambered, but the one I use for pistol whipping is not.

[xray278]

Originally posted by eric green
Do most people who carry, carry with a round in the chamber ready to go...?


Ready to go where????


On a serious note, yea. Yea I do.

[JimBianchi]

I carry a .65cal. flintlock with a dry powder and new flint, cocked and locked.

What use is an unloaded firearm?


(Does anyone else get tired of the same old questions?)

[kensteele]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/kensteele/Threads/whereisthreadgoing.jpg

[THEPOPE]

Eric, carry to your personal comfort level, and training, nothing less will do....you alone will be held accountable for any and all rounds that are fired out of your gun, accidently or not.

Don't let the internet decide such a personal point of carry for you, I would rather you carry to how safe it makes you ....keeps me safe, too.

I carry sometimes chambered, sometimes not, depends upon what I am doing , and I am very aware of when and how I do it...

Some people can't chew gum and walk at the same time, for them, I would rather they did NOT carry chambered... I know some of these folks.

Shoot often, shoot safely,carry on.


Ime out ;)

[geminicricket]

I do.

[AK47Man]

I always carry with one the chamber. Always be prepared. Just taking the time to load one in the chamber could mean life or death if your carrying for personal proctection.

[Agent6-3/8]

Yes.

I say this in just about every thread that comes up on this subject. Regardless of how fast you can draw and rack the slide, that same ammount of time could be use putting rounds down range.

[machinisttx]

I carry a revolver :supergrin:

However, if I carry an autoloader, it's a cocked and locked 1911.

[dakrat]

thats why it says "+1" under magazine capacity. for G19, it would be...................15+1 :tongueout:

[michael t]

Almost went a week with out this question being asked.
Of course chamberd Pistol terrible club.

[kahrcarrier]

Most of the time.

But then again, I sometimes carry a 1911 in Condition Two, which sets of a lot of the doomsday cryers, so maybe I am not the best person to ask.........:supergrin:

[K9Glocker]

Hard not to with a revo.

[Stockhouse14]

This topic is asked here once a week.

90.4 % will say that they carry with a round in the chamber.

[CowboyKen]

I carry with six in the chamber(s). S&W 686.

[jaws48]

yes

[goldshellback]

If my sidearm is on my person, it's condition 1.

My fire extingishers are checked quarterly, spare tires are checked when maintience is performed of the cars, and life, home, and auto insurance is reviewed at least biannually.





It's just a thing I do.

[Captain38]

ABSOLUTELY!!! Only those who are Israeli trained, former mounted cavalry, or those who don't really trust their own gun handling skills would do otherwise.

I do remember, however, that until 1960 or so, some major law enforcement agencies had their members carrying with an empty chamber under the hammers of their revolvers, apparently to guard against the unrealistic possibility that a blow to the hammer could ignite a primer.

[NYC Drew]

It depends.

Most times I do, but there are times not.

Amazingly, I've never "forgotten" the condition of my pistol.

[steveksux]

Originally posted by DocwithGlock
Yes! And I keep air in the spare tire on the back of my truck too. That way it is useable if and when I need it:thumbsup: That sounds dangerous! Aren't you worried your spare tire might explode in an accident???? :rofl: Some of those space saver tires are > 60 psi!!!

Randy

[Oneiros]

No.

I also keep my car's gas tank empty until I'm ready to drive it, also. Helps keep down on the accidental car explosions 'round here. Wonder why I'm always late to everything...

[bobcleanG17]

Yep.

[FLGlock30]

Eric, if you havent realized this question has been beaten up over and over. It really your personal comfort level. When I first started to CCW, I did not keep one up the pipe. Then over about 6 months I became more and more comfortable with CCW in general. Now I am a firm believer that if its not ready why carry. Remember the boy scout motto "Be prepared" Your Glock will not fire unless you pull the trigger, so get a good holster and carry her ready to go!:thumbsup:

[Lior]

Originally posted by Captain38
ABSOLUTELY!!! Only those who are Israeli trained, former mounted cavalry, or those who don't really trust their own gun handling skills would do otherwise.

I am one of the former group, and my chamber is empty for most of the time.

[DocwithGlock]

Originally posted by Lior
I am one of the former group, and my chamber is empty for most of the time.

I have been very impressed by every Israeli I have seen draw and chamber in that way.

I am curious when your chamber is not empty, besides at the range.?

[DocwithGlock]

Originally posted by steveksux
That sounds dangerous! Aren't you worried your spare tire might explode in an accident???? :rofl: Some of those space saver tires are > 60 psi!!!

Randy

What can I say? I live on the edge:supergrin:

[DocwithGlock]

Originally posted by CowboyKen
I carry with six in the chamber(s). S&W 686.

My S&W 686 can hold seven!:tongueout:

[passive101]

My glock 26 holds 11 :)

So I guess I carry with one in the chamber as well.

[VAnimrod]

Originally posted by THEPOPE
Eric, carry to your personal comfort level, and training, nothing less will do....you alone will be held accountable for any and all rounds that are fired out of your gun, accidently or not.

Don't let the internet decide such a personal point of carry for you, I would rather you carry to how safe it makes you ....keeps me safe, too.

I carry sometimes chambered, sometimes not, depends upon what I am doing , and I am very aware of when and how I do it...

Some people can't chew gum and walk at the same time, for them, I would rather they did NOT carry chambered... I know some of these folks.

Shoot often, shoot safely,carry on.


Ime out ;)

Stop making sense, will ya?

There are people here lining up to belittle someone....

[johnrobinson]

+1 for chambered. If someone else doesn't, that's fine. Just the way I like to carry. I like to hear a sound when I pull the *boom switch* with ma *booger hook*!

:banana:

[Warp]

Originally posted by eric green
Do most people who carry, carry with a round in the chamber ready to go...?


Yes, they do.

[lakota222]

My CCW instructor gave the class a little piece of advice that I found brilliant in it's simplicity: If you are not comfortable carrying an auotloader with a round chambered then do the following: Drop your magazine and rack your slide so that the trigger resets and carry that way w/o a round in the chamber for a few weeks. After you discover that the trigger will not trip on it's own you are ready to carry chambered. The same applies to a 1911 cocked and locked on an empty chamber- the safety will not snick off and pull the trigger on it's own.

[RussP]

Yes.

[johnrobinson]

Originally posted by lakota222
My CCW instructor gave the class a little piece of advice that I found brilliant in it's simplicity: If you are not comfortable carrying an auotloader with a round chambered then do the following: Drop your magazine and rack your slide so that the trigger resets and carry that way w/o a round in the chamber for a few weeks. After you discover that the trigger will not trip on it's own you are ready to carry chambered. The same applies to a 1911 cocked and locked on an empty chamber- the safety will not snick off and pull the trigger on it's own.

+1

[VAnimrod]

Excellent advice!

[brandonb123]

g23 unchambered
p-64 "Makarov" chambered

depends on what piece I carry on any given day/situation, its just how I roll.

[xray278]

I would be very happy if the shtf and the bad guy was carrying unchambered.

[Darkangel1846]

Originally posted by eric green
Do most people who carry, carry with a round in the chamber ready to go...?

Always!

[slow ride]

Yes,.......... yes I do.

[SigSauer228]

Sorry Russ

[guralw]

Whenever Iam carrying, there is a round in the chamber. But that is my preference . I carry a concealed handgun not a concealed club. ::cop:

[Hef]

I always carry a gun, and it's always loaded and chambered. At home, I have shotgun loaded, chambered, and always ready.

[Letner]

Yes

[oregonshooter]

Yes, unless I'm visiting Israel. "When in Israel do as the..."

[2bgop]

Everyday.

[glockrocks2]

Yes I do....Its a comfort zone for me..

[nighthunter30]

when I carry it will chambered. Why not!!!

[THEPOPE]

Originally posted by VAnimrod
Stop making sense, will ya?

There are people here lining up to belittle someone....


Oh.....sorry....I will try to be more sensitive next time this comes up, uh, next week, perhaps.

I sometimes forget the need to "flame" at the apropriate moments...

:rofl:


Belittle Away !!



Emmout ;)

[Elmer Fudd]

No.

Tired of posting rationale. Use search function.

[mike1969]

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lior]

Originally posted by DocwithGlock

I am curious when your chamber is not empty, besides at the range.?

Whenever circumstances dictate that I have to be more nice and polite than usual.

[IndyGunFreak]

Originally posted by Elmer Fudd
No.

Tired of posting rationale. Use search function.

Because there isn't any... Pure and simple.

I done exactly what a poster above said to do. I carried for about 4 days unchambered, and realized as long as I wasn't stpuid, ;), the gun would not fire.

IGF

[happyguy]

My glock is carried with a round in the chamber because I want my gun to be ready to go with the least amount of manipulation needed.

But everything is a compromise.

I am giving up a certain amount of safety by doing so.

If you carry without a round in the chamber what you gain in safety you lose in deployment speed.

It's up to you. The Monday morning quarterbacks don't start second guessing until the dust settles.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[Glockwork Orange]

Originally posted by JimBianchi
I carry a .65cal. flintlock with a dry powder and new flint, cocked and locked.






YOU TOO?




:supergrin:

[snowdog37]

Um, yes, in a stress situation where a second or two could be the difference between life and death...I'd like my gun to be ready to go bang when I pull the trigger. It also eliminates that one in a thousand chance of a round that doesn't feed properly when racking the slide.

[Mingus Jim]

Yes. If all I wanted was a club, I'd just buy a club.

[kashton]

Last night was my first night to carry, my CCL just came in yesterday... And yes, I had a round chambered in my H&K P2000SK LEM V2. I also carried my S&S 642 CT when the P2000SK became too uncomfortable to carry. I personally have learned that it is important to trust yourself with your judgement and your actions. When I check my gun to make sure it is clear of ammunition I trust myself that I have cleared it after I've checked it over, though I often double-check. I trust that I will keep my hand off the trigger until I am ready to fire because I have practiced thousands of times. I trust that I will keep my gun holstered so that the trigger will not get caught. You can always buy a gun with a harder double action pull, like the DAO P2000/P2000SK LEM (with a 7-8 lb trigger pull), which I think is a fantastic CCW. I also sometimes carry a G23, which has a 4.5-5.5 lb trigger pull and has no click-on safety, that takes some trust on your part. Keep in mind that most of the holsters will cover up the entire trigger guard so there is no way that the holstered gun will go off from the trigger catching. Practice drawing it with your thumb behind the slide and your finger off the trigger and then practice reholstering it the same way, ALWAYS with your finger off of the trigger. It all comes down to whatever you feel comfortable with. Best of luck to you, and remember that the best safety is in between your ears. :thumbsup:

Kevin

[Veri]

Originally posted by DocwithGlock
Yes! And I keep air in the spare tire on the back of my truck too. That way it is useable if and when I need it:thumbsup:

A fine response to this question, methinks. :wavey:

[rawzon]

Originally posted by eric green
Do most people who carry, carry with a round in the chamber ready to go...?

i do.

[THEPOPE]

Originally posted by IndyGunFreak
Because there isn't any... Pure and simple.

I done exactly what a poster above said to do. I carried for about 4 days unchambered, and realized as long as I wasn't stpuid, ;), the gun would not fire.

IGF

With all due respect, you are wrong, sir....

Has nothing to do with intelligence, or lack there-of, if it did, only about a quarter of us would even be allowed to own guns.


Carry on.

amout ;)

[xm15]

Originally posted by Elmer Fudd
No.

Tired of posting rationale. Use search function.

If it makes you feel better to believe that, go right ahead... As long as you realize that is ALL it accomplishes.

:deadhorse:

[Elmer Fudd]

Originally posted by xm15
If it makes you feel better to believe that, go right ahead... As long as you realize that is ALL it accomplishes.

:deadhorse:

Sigh ...

I am 41 years old. I have never needed a sidearm, to include combat service in the first Gulf War (now the 120mm smoothbore came in handy then, and we did keep a round chambered, but that doesn't qualify as a sidearm).

Now I am married with a 2 yr old and a 4 yr old. We play every day, and they are all over me and all over the house. I carry a Glock 19. It is either on me or in a bedside gunvault. However, since I am not a 100% individual, more like 99.9% on a very good day, I take the extra step to make it harder to discharge if little hands, by some screwup on my part, get hold of it.

I doubt that the most of the chambered jihadis that know it all on these threads (you know the comments - paperweights, afraid of it going off, etc.) are married or have small children. Life is about balancing risks. For me, it has NOTHING to do with a fear on an ND if, by some incredible tiny chance, I have to draw it of necessity.

[orangedawg19]

My G19 stays loaded, chambered, ready to fire, whatever you want to call it, 24/7/365.

[xm15]

Elmer: First, thank you for your service. :patriot:

You are correct, I don't have children. And if I were in your situation, playing with young kids, I would not want a loaded handgun on my person that was not in a retention holster.

You are obviously a safe & responsible gun owner, have thought this issue through and made a decision based on the realities of your situation, not irrational fears. If more folks made decisions as you did, most of us probably wouldn't come on so strong.

Stay safe..

[98_1LE]

I carry wih one round chambered only because I cannot carry with two rounds chambered (per gun)... :rofl:

I would have never thought to carry without a round in the pipe.

[Captain38]

Kashton,

Having read your post, all I can say is that your CCW wisdom seems to far exceed your CCW experience. You're well ahead of the learning curve. I wish others were as weapon's wise.

[kensteele]

Originally posted by Mingus Jim
Yes. If all I wanted was a club, I'd just buy a club.

so when the police stops someone without a permit and finds a handgun in their waistband concealed (without one in the chamber), they get charged with carrying a club and they don't get charged with carrying a firearm?

[DJTHEMAC]

Yes.

And those that dont are either isreali (valid excuse) or freaked out (frightened)

:)

[Torontogunguy]

I'mmmmmmm baaaaaack!

Lesse here.

I have a Glock 26 and Glock 30 among others and have a slight level of DISCOMFORT carrying with a round in the chamber CCW. Why? Because the level of protection afforded by my quick draw McGraw holster just leaves me a bit uneasy. As far as the Israeli army is concerned, I know a number of IDF trained shooters and when they need their guns they need them as fast or faster than anyone on here; of that I have little doubt. Yet they carry unchambered unless they have positive safety. I, for example, would have no problem carrying a 1911 with one in the tube in Condition 1. It is the only way to go and with a grip safety or squeeze cocker plus a thumb safety you have plenty of "safe".

On the other hand, with a striker fired handgun like the Glock, I am a wee bit uncomfortable with no other safety than a split trigger. Insufficient for me to be totally comfy, especially using a holster without positive retention, which most duty carry holsters have and which most concealed carry hosters do not.

This is NOT a simple issue and if you do a search you will find TONS of conversation on the matter.

Having said all of this, recently I had the opportunity to carry a Walther P99 and a Glock 26 and 30 for 3 weeks while on holidays and this is my observation, simply put. I had NO problem whatsoever with the Walther being carried with one in the chamber... even though the only difference between it and the Glocks is the trigger pull. On the Walther it is a bit heavier (an option on the Glocks). On the Walther, once cocked the trigger pull is very light. Prior to reholstering there is a decocking lever to bring the trigger pull back up to about 5 or 6 pounds. Good enough for me.

So... giving this some serious thought since returning home, I have decided that for now I am going to go with my Glock having an empty chamber until I can install a NY1 trigger to increase the pull weight on the trigger. Then I will carry with one in the tube. I have ordered a HK squeeze cocker; an interesting gun indeed. When you grip the grip you cock the gun... release the grip and the gun is uncocked and perfectly safe. Sounds almost too good to be true... I will let you guys know what I discover.

I am looking at a few other options as well; a 1911 carry gun (although I prefer the reliability of the Glock); a thumb safety aftermarket on the Glocks (although it adds time to draw and fire which everyone seems to be hot to trot on); and playing with the IDF method of carrying... no safety set but no round in the chamber. It seems to me that if it works for the IDF and for the Israeli population in general who are dealing with terrorism on a daily basis... where speed is of the essence... it must be pretty close to carrying in Condition 1 or with one in the chamber in the case of Glocks.

The bottom line? It all depends on what your particular circumstances are. Walking through brush that can catch a trigger and make boom... or whatever versus carrying in deep concealment where the chances of anything coming in contact with the trigger is nil. In the latter case, I think I might be more inclined to carry 'hot'. It is just NOT a simple issue and anyone that tells you that it is black and white, cut and dry... you gotta carry with one in the tube or you're in trouble... well, you remember what your parents used to say about "if Johnny jumped off the bridge would you?". I have never been one to go with the flow and have always preferred to sort the wheat from the chaff and make my own intelligent decision. You are going to have to evaluate all of the myriad of options and make your own decision.

Just remember one thing. With a Glock you have the penultimate in reliability; and secondly, if you can be totally assured that nothing will come into contact with that trigger you will never, ever have an accidental discharge.

And lastly... just one other random thought. IF (and this is the big "IF" for me...) IF I do go with carrying my Glock cocked with one in the chamber (remember that ALL Glocks are cocked and unlocked as long as there is one in the chamber; can't get one into the chamber without being cocked and unlocked)... if I DO decide to go with one in the chamber on my Glocks, most assuredly my holster is going to have the gun pointed in as harmless a direction as possible... keeping in mind that an AD or ND in ANY event will more than likely cause you to lose your carry permit forever... at least you won't wind up with a round in your foot, your crotch, belly or arse. Bad enough losing your permit if it happens in public. Keep this in mind.

Sorry to jump back in here... this has been talked to death but is a very complex and difficult subject.

And please do not take this as flaming... but to those who state things like "I carry my spare tire without air in it" and stuff like that, you are not doing any justice to your position nor to your rationalization for carrying one in the tube. It is simply negating any rational comments that you may have made by the inclusion of the sarcasm, even if it is tongue in cheek... and I know you are all great guys and appreciate the input. But frankly? It is still my position that carrying a "hot" round in the chamber is sheer folly without the necessary safety mechanisms in place, such as a grip safety, a squeeze cocker, a thumb safety (not a personal favourite but better than nothing) and so on.

It sure gives one food for thought to think that there are so many carrying their Glocks hot in unsecured holsters.

[DJTHEMAC]

Originally posted by Torontogunguy
And please do not take this as flaming... but to those who state things like "I carry my spare tire without air in it" and stuff like that, you are not doing any justice to your position nor to your rationalization for carrying one in the tube. It is simply negating any rational comments that you may have made by the inclusion of the sarcasm, even if it is tongue in cheek... and I know you are all great guys and appreciate the input. But frankly? It is still my position that carrying a "hot" round in the chamber is sheer folly without the necessary safety mechanisms in place, such as a grip safety, a squeeze cocker, a thumb safety (not a personal favourite but better than nothing) and so on.

It sure gives one food for thought to think that there are so many carrying their Glocks hot in unsecured holsters.

No Sir, unfortunately we have just seen and participated in so many similar reincarnations of this particular topic that there is no need to reiterate the many benefits carrying a chambered weapon offers over carrying a non-chambered weapon.

My line of thinking is as follows...

Q. Are 1911's inherently more safe (due to numerous external safeties) then glocks?
A. Of course. I feel very secure carrying cocked and locked with a 1911

Q. Does a chambered gun have any advantages over an chambered gun?
A. You bet your ass. Try drawing and racking a slide with one hand, while you try to fend off the knife stroke of your assailant with your other arm. (it can be done, but honestly who practices the belt/slide rack? Not the majority of people arguing against carrying chambered) Try racking a slide AFTER the BG has beaten you to a draw, and have announced they will be taking you into "the back room" That extra second may make all the differences.

Q. Carrying a glock makes me feel relatively less safe then when i carry a cocked and locked 1911, what should i do?
A. Carry a 1911 or another gun in which you feel comfortable carrying chambered, so that your weapon is not reduced to the effectiveness of a rock.

[Warp]

Originally posted by DJTHEMAC

My line of thinking is as follows...

Q. Are 1911's inherently more safe (due to numerous external safeties) then glocks?
A. Of course. I feel very secure carrying cocked and locked with a 1911

Then you need to either alter your thinking or improve your gun handling habits. ;)

[DJTHEMAC]

Originally posted by Warp
Then you need to either alter your thinking or improve your gun handling habits. ;)


Hehe. My questions were hypothetical, when i carried my G26 it was always chambered, and now that I have switched over to 1911's, they will always be chambered as well.

[Aphotic]

Yes. Always.

There's no point in carrying if you can't draw, point and shoot!

[Warp]

Originally posted by Aphotic
Yes. Always.

There's no point in carrying if you can't draw, point and shoot!

I, of course, agree with your first statement.

But I must disagree with your second.


Anybody who says that you may as well not carry (or carry a brick) if the chamber is empty is wrong. Plain and simple.

Sure, I believe a chambered/ready gun is much preferable, but a gun with a loaded mag/empty chamber is still MUCH better than no gun. Or a brick.

[Aphotic]

It's not completely useless, but if you are in a situation where you have a gun in your face, the extra motion of racking your slide and chambering a round can and will get you killed.

When I first bought my G23 I was uncomfortable with the fact that it "didn't have a safety." Unfortunately, that leads me to the next paragraph:

I was in a situation a few years back that got extremely ugly, extremely quickly. I had my firearm with me but no round was chambered and it was one of the most helpless feelings I've ever experienced.

My G23 has had a round in the chamber every second (except for cleaning and maintenance, obviously) since then and I will NEVER make that mistake EVER again.

You never know what will happen or what you might be up against.

Why take the chance?

[Warp]

Originally posted by Aphotic
It's not completely useless, but if you are in a situation where you have a gun in your face, the extra motion of racking your slide and chambering a round can and will get you killed.

When I first bought my G23 I was uncomfortable with the fact that it "didn't have a safety." Unfortunately, that leads me to the next paragraph:

I was in a situation a few years back that got extremely ugly, extremely quickly. I had my firearm with me but no round was chambered and it was one of the most helpless feelings I've ever experienced.

My G23 has had a round in the chamber every second (except for cleaning and maintenance, obviously) since then and I will NEVER make that mistake EVER again.

You never know what will happen or what you might be up against.

Why take the chance?

I completely agree. I don't take the chance. I keep it chambered.

HOWEVER, I am simply pointing out that an unchambered gun is still MUCH better than no gun, and MUCH better than a brick, despite what some will (in virtually every thread on this topic that comes up) say.

[Aphotic]

Even a completely unloaded firearm is better than a brick!

My mind keeps wandering to that scene in Goodfella's where he pistol whips the guy in his driveway with snub-nose revolver.

Classic!

[kensteele]

Originally posted by Aphotic
It's not completely useless, but if you are in a situation where you have a gun in your face, the extra motion of racking your slide and chambering a round can and will get you killed.

When I first bought my G23 I was uncomfortable with the fact that it "didn't have a safety." Unfortunately, that leads me to the next paragraph:

I was in a situation a few years back that got extremely ugly, extremely quickly. I had my firearm with me but no round was chambered and it was one of the most helpless feelings I've ever experienced.

My G23 has had a round in the chamber every second (except for cleaning and maintenance, obviously) since then and I will NEVER make that mistake EVER again.

You never know what will happen or what you might be up against.

Why take the chance?

Ok, now you have us all curious.

The question has been asked many times. Is it a myth, made up right here on GT, that there are situations out there where a round in the chamber or not has made a fatal decision? Or has someone just simply put it out there that these 2 seconds could happen and you could die. It's already rare that you will need your gun, how much more rare is it that there's a two second difference between life or death. After all, those with a round in the chamber can expend two second elsewhere, perhaps on the draw because they weren't tucked properly, or their fingers were bandaged from basketball last night. How many of those same people diligently practice with their weak hand which is just as important. Or maybe they're just looking for an argument. Who knows?

the news stories are countless. plenty of documented self-defense shootings. often you get to hear from the shooter and the witnesses. not once in any of those accounts had i read anything to do with racking the slide. no one said, "it took too long..." or "it would have been different if...." or "he got away because...." I doubt all those people had one in the chamber, but maybe they do.

your example: a gun to your head? chambered or not, it's all the same; not going to be a difference there. but you did mention that you were once in a situation where you felt like crap because you were not chambered. if you are able to, and you're under no obligation to do so of course, perhaps you can elaborate so we all can hear "for the first time" some of the real benefits of having a round in the chamber.

[Glockanatorrrrr]

Originally posted by Agent6-3/8
Yes.

I say this in just about every thread that comes up on this subject. Regardless of how fast you can draw and rack the slide, that same ammount of time could be use putting rounds down range.

I sent Russ a PM to see if we can sticky this topic. It comes up every other week. Yes, I carry with 1 in the pipe.

[jakemccoy]

Originally posted by Hef
At home, I have shotgun loaded, chambered, and always ready.

A chambered shotgun is not a good idea. Everybody's so happy that he carries chambered in his Glock that nobody noticed this. A shotgun's trigger is fully cocked, unlike the half cock and multiple safeties of the Glock.

Anyway, I carry unchambered in my Glock 27. I've read this thread and others. So, there's no need to get your panties all in a bunch about me carrying unchambered. If you want me to explain why I carry unchambered, send me a PM.

:hugs:

[Warp]

Originally posted by kensteele
Is it a myth, made up right here on GT, that there are situations out there where a round in the chamber or not has made a fatal decision?

No.

One GT member has posted his own personal story, multiple times (and probably doesn't want to anymore). He was attacked and, luckily, had his gun chambered, as the situation he was in would not have allowed him to rack the slide.

Carry chambered!

Originally posted by jakemccoy
A chambered shotgun is not a good idea.

Why is that? That is what the safety is for.

Personally, I keep my shotgun with the safety off and a round "in the chamber", but with the forend to the rear so that all you have to do is slide it forward and pull the trigger.

[jakemccoy]

Originally posted by Warp
Why is that? That is what the safety is for.

Personally, I keep my shotgun with the safety off and a round "in the chamber", but with the forend to the rear so that all you have to do is slide it forward and pull the trigger.

Seriously, you really don't know why carrying chambered in a shotgun is a bad idea?

Actually, I'm not even going to answer this. Pose this question www.shotgunworld.com. Or search on that site.

[Warp]

Originally posted by jakemccoy
Seriously, you really don't know why carrying chambered in a shotgun is a bad idea?

I don't carry a shotgun.

[jakemccoy]

Originally posted by Warp
I don't carry a shotgun.

It's bad for storing a shotgun too. The trigger system on a standard 870 has none of the safety features of a Glock. One faulty, malfunctioning or worn-out pin could make your chambered shotgun with your double ought buck shells go kaboom! You also said you keep the safety off. Make sure to take cover from your shotgun during an earthquake, tornado or hard wind (shotgun getting knocked over or something falling on the trigger). Please PM your address to me, so that I can make sure I don't come within 500 yards of your house.

For your own safety and the safety of others, please consider the "cruiser ready" or a variation thereof for your shotgun. With your chambered Glock next to you, you have immediate fire power to let you get to your shotgun and to let you rack it.

[jakemccoy]

Originally posted by Warp
Personally, I keep my shotgun with the safety off and a round "in the chamber", but with the forend to the rear so that all you have to do is slide it forward and pull the trigger.

For you, I'd recommend hammer down on an empty chamber, magazine full, safety off. When ready to fire, rack the slide (back and forth) and fire.

Personally, I use a slightly slower configuration - hammer up on an empty chamber, magazine full, safety on. When ready to fire, I press the forend release, release the safety, rack the slide and fire. I like this configuration better because the forend cannot be racked without me pressing the release.

[Warp]

Originally posted by jakemccoy
It's bad for storing a shotgun too. The trigger system on a standard 870 has none of the safety features of a Glock. One faulty, malfunctioning or worn-out pin could make your chambered shotgun with your double ought buck shells go kaboom! You also said you keep the safety off. Make sure to take cover from your shotgun during an earthquake, tornado or hard wind (shotgun getting knocked over or something falling on the trigger). Please PM your address to me, so that I can make sure I don't come within 500 yards of your house.

For your own safety and the safety of others, please consider the "cruiser ready" or a variation thereof for your shotgun. With your chambered Glock next to you, you have immediate fire power to let you get to your shotgun and to let you rack it.



Originally posted by jakemccoy
That's almost "cruiser ready". What happens when you pick up your gun awkward and the shell falls out?

Here's a suggestion. (Take it or leave.) Unload the shotgun entirely. Load the magazine completely. Rack the chamber open. Store the shotgun in that postion with the forend to the rear. Keep the safety off if you want. When read to fire, rack the slide up, thereby chambering the shotgun, and fire.

EDIT:
With what you've described, your shotgun is not necessarily chambered.

No, it is not necessarily chambered. The way it sits the shell has been engaged, though. It was fully chambered and then backed out.

The way the shotgun is propped up in the corner falling over is very unlikely, even if Atlanta somehow had an earthquake.

The shell falls out? It won't fall out. It is stuck in there pretty well, the extractor has it.

I will consider the method you describe.

[jakemccoy]

I edited my previous post, sorry. We may be having communication errors. (I'm reading too fast.)

[Dinho]

an employee at an unnamed gun store in my area said he doesnt like glocks because they dont have the controls on a gun he likes. "you just point them, pull the trigger and they go boom"

yep, thats why i like it...

yeah i carry with one in the chamber. i can get an extra round in my gun that way too :banana:

[keith56]

An autoloader without one in the chamber is as useless as Barak Obama.

[codecowboy]

Yup. Always.

[mike1969]

Originally posted by keith56
An autoloader without one in the chamber is as useless as Barak Obama.


That was funny......

[Eternal Sun]

...A citizen noted the hammer back on the 1911 carried in the waist band by Charlie Miller, Texas Ranger. The Citizen asks, "Isn't That Dangerous?" Charley replied, " I wouldn't carry the son of a ***** if it wasn't dangerous."

[DJTHEMAC]

Originally posted by kensteele
Ok, now you have us all curious.

The question has been asked many times. Is it a myth, made up right here on GT, that there are situations out there where a round in the chamber or not has made a fatal decision? Or has someone just simply put it out there that these 2 seconds could happen and you could die. It's already rare that you will need your gun, how much more rare is it that there's a two second difference between life or death. After all, those with a round in the chamber can expend two second elsewhere, perhaps on the draw because they weren't tucked properly, or their fingers were bandaged from basketball last night. How many of those same people diligently practice with their weak hand which is just as important. Or maybe they're just looking for an argument. Who knows?

the news stories are countless. plenty of documented self-defense shootings. often you get to hear from the shooter and the witnesses. not once in any of those accounts had i read anything to do with racking the slide. no one said, "it took too long..." or "it would have been different if...." or "he got away because...." I doubt all those people had one in the chamber, but maybe they do.

your example: a gun to your head? chambered or not, it's all the same; not going to be a difference there. but you did mention that you were once in a situation where you felt like crap because you were not chambered. if you are able to, and you're under no obligation to do so of course, perhaps you can elaborate so we all can hear "for the first time" some of the real benefits of having a round in the chamber.


Arguements for carrying chambered are based primarily on LOGIC. If you are selected as a victim by a bad guy, you will already be behind the beat as the badguy will most likely have his weapon drawn, or in the very least planned his approach and suprised the crap out of you. And dont tell me "situational awareness blah blah blah" we all agree that its important, but unless you have eyes grafted into the back of your head, you will not be able to stop ALL threats.

If there was one time you REALLY needed your gun to defend your life, that b***h better work.

[Oneiros]

Originally posted by kensteele
Ok, now you have us all curious.

The question has been asked many times. Is it a myth, made up right here on GT, that there are situations out there where a round in the chamber or not has made a fatal decision? Or has someone just simply put it out there that these 2 seconds could happen and you could die. It's already rare that you will need your gun, how much more rare is it that there's a two second difference between life or death. After all, those with a round in the chamber can expend two second elsewhere, perhaps on the draw because they weren't tucked properly, or their fingers were bandaged from basketball last night. How many of those same people diligently practice with their weak hand which is just as important. Or maybe they're just looking for an argument. Who knows?

the news stories are countless. plenty of documented self-defense shootings. often you get to hear from the shooter and the witnesses. not once in any of those accounts had i read anything to do with racking the slide. no one said, "it took too long..." or "it would have been different if...." or "he got away because...." I doubt all those people had one in the chamber, but maybe they do.

your example: a gun to your head? chambered or not, it's all the same; not going to be a difference there. but you did mention that you were once in a situation where you felt like crap because you were not chambered. if you are able to, and you're under no obligation to do so of course, perhaps you can elaborate so we all can hear "for the first time" some of the real benefits of having a round in the chamber.

Well, getting the people who died because they needed that 2 seconds to tell us about the experience is going to be a bit hard.

[kensteele]

Originally posted by Oneiros
Well, getting the people who died because they needed that 2 seconds to tell us about the experience is going to be a bit hard.

No I'm looking for a witness who would say "he had a weapon on him but he didn't have time to use it. Got knifed by the perp instead. It took him awhile to deploy the weapon, he was trying to pull the slide or something....anyway, he ran out of time and got killed. I honestly believe if he had a few more seconds, you'd be interviewing him right now instead of me..."

This is being said 100,000 times to 1 in the GT forum vs. real life.

I'm looking for at least one real life incident reported that will show something like "he pulled his legal concealed weapon but the criminal held him left arm down and the victim wasn't able to shoot for some reason and was subsequently killed...." Never happens. Could happen. Never happens. ;)

[Warp]

Originally posted by kensteele
No I'm looking for a witness who would say "he had a weapon on him but he didn't have time to use it. Got knifed by the perp instead. It took him awhile to deploy the weapon, he was trying to pull the slide or something....anyway, he ran out of time and got killed. I honestly believe if he had a few more seconds, you'd be interviewing him right now instead of me..."

This is being said 100,000 times to 1 in the GT forum vs. real life.

I'm looking for at least one real life incident reported that will show something like "he pulled his legal concealed weapon but the criminal held him left arm down and the victim wasn't able to shoot for some reason and was subsequently killed...." Never happens. Could happen. Never happens. ;)


How many violent crimes have eye witnesses present who see the whole thing go down, get every minute detail, and accurately (without worrying about repercussions from the perps or the perps gang/family/friends) relay those incredibly accurate facts to LE...and THEN have those accurate, specific facts (regarding a civilian legally armed and attempting to use justified force in self defens) picked up and printed by the (liberal bias) media?

[toyamabarnard]

I'd been around guns and shooting since I was young, but at 19 when I started carrying I was nervous about 1 in. On duty and holstered always, but off duty I wasn't comfortable at first. I started with a S&W 909 and eventually felt safe enough to carry chambered, but with the safety on. As time progressed I moved to a Sig 226 and carried chambered and no safety (since there wasn't one). When we switched to G19 I was a little nervous (I was used to a hammer if no safety) but I got over that. By the time we switched to G22 I was tired of a big piece of steel stuffed in my pants, so I got the G27 and carried chambered. Now any gun not being used, carried or cleaned stays locked up in a safe unchambered. The G27 was a tad too sub compact for me personally, so I switched to the G23. I carried a Glock on my right hip at work and trained how to use that particular gun, so it made sense to keep that same reaction off duty. Most of the time I carry in a Serpa holster, sometimes I use a Fobus and very rarely if I need a little more concealability or I'm just running out for a few I'll stuff it on the inside of my pants. I've been considering the Jentra clip lately, but I'm still undecided. However I carry it it's got 1 in the chamber when I'm carrying it. I've never had AD or shot myself in the foot (or more likely down the back of my leg) and over the years I've come to trust myself and my weapon enough.

I say carry how you're comfortable. Tigers are great, but I wouldn't be comfortable with one in my house ;)

I've never personally been in a situation where that extra second to rack the slide would make the difference between life and death and I'd be much more concerned about going one handed or not being able to rack the slide quickly. I've seen enough training videos and had it drilled in that that extra second or two could make the difference though. I learned to draw and fire for a reason and personally I'd rather be +1 and not need it than need it and not be ready.

[DJTHEMAC]

Originally posted by kensteele
No I'm looking for a witness who would say "he had a weapon on him but he didn't have time to use it. Got knifed by the perp instead. It took him awhile to deploy the weapon, he was trying to pull the slide or something....anyway, he ran out of time and got killed. I honestly believe if he had a few more seconds, you'd be interviewing him right now instead of me..."

This is being said 100,000 times to 1 in the GT forum vs. real life.

I'm looking for at least one real life incident reported that will show something like "he pulled his legal concealed weapon but the criminal held him left arm down and the victim wasn't able to shoot for some reason and was subsequently killed...." Never happens. Could happen. Never happens. ;)

Mr. Steele, look at it this way. People chose not to carry chambered for ONE reason, they feel uncomfortable with a loaded weapon. This paranoia is normal for people who have not been around weapons for very long. Hell when i first started carrying, I made my own "chambered versus unchambered thread," wasting bandwidth.

However, once I became more comfortable around firearms (and found out that they don't "spontaneously go off," I learned better gun handling skills, and I haven't looked back.

There are TONS of logical reasons to carry chambered, and only one reason not to carry chambered (lack of training and or fear of spontaneous ignition). Child proofing is NOT a valid reason to leave a gun unchambered, kids are very resourceful and can rack a slide using leverage in ways that you would not believe. If you have kids, lock your guns up.

I have heard of many people carrying unchambered to begin with, and then using the snap cap method, gradually improving their confidence levels until they carried chambered 24/7 I have NEVER heard of anyone who started out carrying chambered and then ultimately decided to carry without one in the chamber. Mr. Steele, i challenge YOU to cite me an example of such a case.

Progression versus regression? :thumbsup:

[xm15]

Originally posted by kensteele
No I'm looking for a witness who would say "he had a weapon on him but he didn't have time to use it. Got knifed by the perp instead. It took him awhile to deploy the weapon, he was trying to pull the slide or something....anyway, he ran out of time and got killed. I honestly believe if he had a few more seconds, you'd be interviewing him right now instead of me..."

This is being said 100,000 times to 1 in the GT forum vs. real life.

I'm looking for at least one real life incident reported that will show something like "he pulled his legal concealed weapon but the criminal held him left arm down and the victim wasn't able to shoot for some reason and was subsequently killed...." Never happens. Could happen. Never happens. ;)

Ken: Forget about the logic of it. All you have to do is look at all the statistics collected regarding LE shooting incidents. 85% occur at a range of 21 feet or less. It takes an attacker approximately 1.5 seconds to move 21 feet from a standing start. Something like 50% of all killings with a handgun occur within 5 feet. Not 5 yards, 5 FEET.

Few people will be able to even draw from concealment in that time frame, let alone mess around with racking the slide.

You want facts? I suggest you spend a little time perusing the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, and specifically the Law Enforcement Officers Killed & Assaulted report. The majority of folks who have never been in a violent confrontation have no concept of how fast or how close things happen. How many LEO's have been killed with their own firearms?

The mindset of some folks on here just makes me shake my head... If you really want to play the "it probably won't happen" game, why even carry a firearm?

Jeff Cooper made a statement that I have used on here before:
"You are no more armed because you own a gun than you are a musician because you own a piano. The instrument is not the answer; the skill to use the instrument is the answer."

The older I get, the more I realize just how many people that statement applies to. It's funny how this type of debate only seems to happen on internet gun forums, with people who I would guess don't carry a gun in harm's way for a living. The mindset of these folks is basically "it probably won't happen to me, so I don't REALLY need to be prepared."

This topic has been beaten to death on here. Some folks just don't get it and never will. A couple folks have had pretty valid points from a purely safety perspective, but they also seem to understand that they are exchanging effectiveness for safety and are willing to assume that risk. To argue that there are no tradeoffs and that it doesn't matter in the real world is just silly.

[Warp]

Originally posted by xm15

The mindset of some folks on here just makes me shake my head... If you really want to play the "it probably won't happen" game, why even carry a firearm?



You just hit the nail on the head!

In fact, just an FYI and a little background, since you guessed it....ken is one of the guys who admits to leaving his gun at home multiple times a week, purposely, when he could legally carry, due to the "it probably won't happen to me" syndrome.

[kensteele]

Originally posted by DJTHEMAC
Mr. Steele, look at it this way. People chose not to carry chambered for ONE reason, they feel uncomfortable with a loaded weapon. This paranoia is normal for people who have not been around weapons for very long. Hell when i first started carrying, I made my own "chambered versus unchambered thread," wasting bandwidth.

However, once I became more comfortable around firearms (and found out that they don't "spontaneously go off," I learned better gun handling skills, and I haven't looked back.

There are TONS of logical reasons to carry chambered, and only one reason not to carry chambered (lack of training and or fear of spontaneous ignition). Child proofing is NOT a valid reason to leave a gun unchambered, kids are very resourceful and can rack a slide using leverage in ways that you would not believe. If you have kids, lock your guns up.

I have heard of many people carrying unchambered to begin with, and then using the snap cap method, gradually improving their confidence levels until they carried chambered 24/7 I have NEVER heard of anyone who started out carrying chambered and then ultimately decided to carry without one in the chamber. Mr. Steele, i challenge YOU to cite me an example of such a case.

Progression versus regression? :thumbsup:

i can't answer to anything you've written here. it's obviously you haven't read any of the posts; you're way way off base. :upeyes:

you have an issue with someone else not in this thread.

[kensteele]

Originally posted by Warp
How many violent crimes have eye witnesses present who see the whole thing go down, get every minute detail, and accurately (without worrying about repercussions from the perps or the perps gang/family/friends) relay those incredibly accurate facts to LE...and THEN have those accurate, specific facts (regarding a civilian legally armed and attempting to use justified force in self defens) picked up and printed by the (liberal bias) media?

true, but you would have thought that it would come up at least once, maybe? the way people talk about it here, it's a certainty. oh well.... :sad:

read some of those report/accounts/news stories, it never mentions. probably because it doesn't happen.

[kensteele]

Originally posted by xm15
Ken: Forget about the logic of it. All you have to do is look at all the statistics collected regarding LE shooting incidents. 85% occur at a range of 21 feet or less. It takes an attacker approximately 1.5 seconds to move 21 feet from a standing start. Something like 50% of all killings with a handgun occur within 5 feet. Not 5 yards, 5 FEET.

Few people will be able to even draw from concealment in that time frame, let alone mess around with racking the slide.

You want facts? I suggest you spend a little time perusing the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, and specifically the Law Enforcement Officers Killed & Assaulted report. The majority of folks who have never been in a violent confrontation have no concept of how fast or how close things happen. How many LEO's have been killed with their own firearms?

The mindset of some folks on here just makes me shake my head... If you really want to play the "it probably won't happen" game, why even carry a firearm?

Jeff Cooper made a statement that I have used on here before:
"You are no more armed because you own a gun than you are a musician because you own a piano. The instrument is not the answer; the skill to use the instrument is the answer."

The older I get, the more I realize just how many people that statement applies to. It's funny how this type of debate only seems to happen on internet gun forums, with people who I would guess don't carry a gun in harm's way for a living. The mindset of these folks is basically "it probably won't happen to me, so I don't REALLY need to be prepared."

This topic has been beaten to death on here. Some folks just don't get it and never will. A couple folks have had pretty valid points from a purely safety perspective, but they also seem to understand that they are exchanging effectiveness for safety and are willing to assume that risk. To argue that there are no tradeoffs and that it doesn't matter in the real world is just silly.

sure i think there are trade-offs but i'm trying to ascertain how valid are they. no one seems to think having your weapon concealed underneath several layers of clothing has much to do with timing and 5 feet. i don't see anybody trying to thin out their clothing, loosen up their tuck, and try to regain a few seconds. how many of us even practice from the draw? i bet less than half. to me, those are even more important.

i don't have the facts. i'm looking for those who speak as though they have the facts to at least produce something tangible. i'm speaking from the standpoint that i use to carry without one in the chamber for safety reasons and i was told some things that i now view as pretty stupid. a few of you have acknowledged the tradeoff but if you go back and read the thread, you see the stupidity and it flows....and it continues today.

for the record, i carry with one in the chamber always. yes i've switched. but i didn't become dense in that switch and now start to berate the others as carrying bricks or walking around defenseless. if people said they don't carry with one in the chamber because of their kids, they haven't always had kids so i would imagine they've switched (the other way) at some point. now there's a fact for you.

you are right, this topic is beaten to death. some folks will never get it, they will never accept from you that their carry choice is improper for them. i never could understand how one person feels they can pass judgment on another's carry method when it has absolutely nothing to do with them. i will never criticize anyone who has thought it thru and then determined they want to carry unchambered. if they choose to do that, they are probably still more ready and more armed and more prepared than 95% of the population. it's their life, if it works for them, it MUST work for you. bottom line. let is go. saying your arm will get cocked or you slide will jam or you lose 2 seconds or the cops go chambered or whatever isn't even a factor at that point.

[kensteele]

Originally posted by Warp
You just hit the nail on the head!

In fact, just an FYI and a little background, since you guessed it....ken is one of the guys who admits to leaving his gun at home multiple times a week, purposely, when he could legally carry, due to the "it probably won't happen to me" syndrome.

Nice shot but has nothing to do with the topic.

I don't have much of a choice, I can't take my firearm to work. So after work I often run errands without my weapon. If you call that "leaving my gun at home purposely when I could be carrying" when I stop by Wendy's on the way home from work instead of going home first from work and then coming back to Wendy's without even leaving my car in broad daylight in one of the safest cities in the Midwest, then you've pegged me. That's me. I won't do it. I don't need to do it. I've assessed the risks and it passes. I'll be fine. You can leave out the word "probably" too. Maybe it's not for you and where you live, but I do it just fine. And I'm comfortable with it...everyday. Maybe you're just jealous that you can't chill out like me and live in a safe place relatively risk free; I would never wear all that crazy gear.....lol.

Anyway, you should know that I have a shotgun in the trunk and a permanent second Glock in my in-car safe. So I'm never away from home completely unarmed, just often without ccw on my person. And I'm currently looking for a pocket pistol (keltec, kahr, or walther) to mitigate this so I can go from my current 95% carry to 99% carry.

You know, actually, that shot was lame. You are so way off base, they way you characterized me is so so wrong. You aren't even close. lol I probably carry more weapons than 90% of the population in Kansas...and that includes the criminals. :banana: But I don't live my life in fear. :tongueout:

[DJTHEMAC]

Originally posted by kensteele
for the record, i carry with one in the chamber always. yes i've switched. but i didn't become dense in that switch and now start to berate the others as carrying bricks or walking around defenseless. if people said they don't carry with one in the chamber because of their kids, they haven't always had kids so i would imagine they've switched (the other way) at some point. now there's a fact for you.

you are right, this topic is beaten to death. some folks will never get it, they will never accept from you that their carry choice is improper for them. i never could understand how one person feels they can pass judgment on another's carry method when it has absolutely nothing to do with them. i will never criticize anyone who has thought it thru and then determined they want to carry unchambered. if they choose to do that, they are probably still more ready and more armed and more prepared than 95% of the population. it's their life, if it works for them, it MUST work for you. bottom line. let is go. saying your arm will get cocked or you slide will jam or you lose 2 seconds or the cops go chambered or whatever isn't even a factor at that point.

So basically you alread agree to the logic of carrying chambered, and you just like to argue?

:shocked:

Regarding the folks with kids, carrying chambered is not like deciding what color of boxers to wear in the morning, I would be VERY surprised if somebody always carried chambered and then decided not to once they had kids. If that is a "fact" please enlighten us with a link, or a testimonial. My money would be that you would find neither. Once people realize the importance of having an operable weapon, they will take other steps to ensure the safety of their children without nuetering their own ability to defend themselves.

The reason that many people are so outspoken on their support of chambered carry is because when someone decides NOT to carry chambered, the are putting themselves and others in danger. Pulling out a weapon may escalate a situation. Pulling out a temporarily inoperable weapon may get you, and bystanders killed while you fumble with your slide.

[Warp]

Originally posted by kensteele
sure i think there are trade-offs but i'm trying to ascertain how valid are they. no one seems to think having your weapon concealed underneath several layers of clothing has much to do with timing and 5 feet. i don't see anybody trying to thin out their clothing, loosen up their tuck, and try to regain a few seconds. how many of us even practice from the draw? i bet less than half. to me, those are even more important.

Most of us practice the draw. Quite a bit. At least that is my impression. And once you get it down into muscle memory it doesn't take nearly as much to maintain that memory as it did to originally create it.

Carrying on your waist it should never take "a few seconds" extra to get through clothing.

The tuck shouldn't need any loosening. If it's tucked you should probably use the rip/pull method...using your support side hand to pull the shirt up. Of course, you should also practice doing it all with one hand, just in case. Besides, to get good concealment you can't really tuck the shirt all that "tight" around teh gun. It has to be a little loose/bloused.

You are right in that practicing is very important. But, IMO (and many others) have a gun that is ready to go is at least as important!

[kensteele]

Originally posted by DJTHEMAC


.... when someone decides NOT to carry chambered, the are putting themselves and others in danger. Pulling out a weapon may escalate a situation. Pulling out a temporarily inoperable weapon may get you, and bystanders killed while you fumble with your slide.

No, I don't like to argue. But I'm not going to sit back and watch this type of nonsense get posted. This is your opinion, not a fact. What a load of crap. :rofl:

I used to carry unchambered and I put NO ONE in danger. :upeyes:

[kensteele]

Originally posted by Warp
Most of us practice the draw. Quite a bit. At least that is my impression. And once you get it down into muscle memory it doesn't take nearly as much to maintain that memory as it did to originally create it.

Carrying on your waist it should never take "a few seconds" extra to get through clothing.

The tuck shouldn't need any loosening. If it's tucked you should probably use the rip/pull method...using your support side hand to pull the shirt up. Of course, you should also practice doing it all with one hand, just in case. Besides, to get good concealment you can't really tuck the shirt all that "tight" around teh gun. It has to be a little loose/bloused.

You are right in that practicing is very important. But, IMO (and many others) have a gun that is ready to go is at least as important!

Where do you practice? All of the ranges that I've seen won't let you. So when I go to the outdoor unsupervised, I get my practice in....but that's not too often. Do you practice with an unloaded weapon, is that even the same?

[DJTHEMAC]

Originally posted by kensteele
No, I don't like to argue. But I'm not going to sit back and watch this type of nonsense get posted. This is your opinion, not a fact. What a load of crap. :rofl:

I used to carry unchambered and I put NO ONE in danger. :upeyes:

:laughabove:


I would take my chances then be "rescued" by somebody try to fumble with a slide when their adrenaline is pumping and their motor skills are shot, and there is a gun pointed in their direction.

I am glad you have seen the light, please stop confusing people who have yet to make up their minds, with your verbal refuse.

[xm15]

Originally posted by kensteele

Ken: Just want to make a couple points...

how many of us even practice from the draw? i bet less than half. to me, those are even more important.

Another good example of the difference between those who are prepared and actually believe they may NEED their weapon, and those who just seem to like the idea of carrying a gun but not the reality of doing so.

i will never criticize anyone who has thought it thru and then determined they want to carry unchambered.

Here is the crux of the matter. The reason some of us sound like we are preaching when it comes to this issue, is that most folks make the decision out of ignorance, lack of confidence and experience. Not because they thought the issue through, and carefully weighed the tradeoffs. I don't like decisions made out of ignorance.

If, after explaining the issue to someone, they make a rational decision to accept the disadvantages of unchambered carry, I really don't have an issue with that. As you said, it is their life. What I don't have much tolerance for, is when the head-in-the-sand posters show up and want to argue that there are no tradeoffs or disadvantages to carrying a pistol without a round in the chamber. They invariably make foolish statements, such as:
"I'll never have only one hand to draw my pistol."
"No bad guy will ever get that close to me."
"Well, the Israelis do it, so it must be good."

And last, but not least: "It can't happen to me!"

I, for one, won't accept ignorant people pushing their uninformed opinions on others who are just seeking knowledge.

You, yourself, have already stated that you used to carry unchambered but changed. Obviously, something caused you to make that decision. Other than to simply be argumentative, what is the purpose in you debating this issue?

if they choose to do that, they are probably still more ready and more armed and more prepared than 95% of the population.

At least in their minds. Whether they are truly mentally prepared is debatable...

[xm15]

Originally posted by kensteele
Where do you practice? All of the ranges that I've seen won't let you. So when I go to the outdoor unsupervised, I get my practice in....but that's not too often. Do you practice with an unloaded weapon, is that even the same?

You don't need to go to a range to practice weapon manipulation skills. Drawstroke, reloads, trigger control, etc. can all be practiced safely away from the range without throwing lead and burning powder.

[Warp]

Originally posted by kensteele
Where do you practice? All of the ranges that I've seen won't let you. So when I go to the outdoor unsupervised, I get my practice in....but that's not too often. Do you practice with an unloaded weapon, is that even the same?

Drawing? In my living room.

Heck yes it is the same. The draw stroke is the same.

I usually leave the trigger to the rear, and if not I make damn sure it is unloaded.

You absolutely do not have to pracice drawing with a loaded gun at the range.

[kensteele]

Originally posted by DJTHEMAC



I would take my chances then be "rescued" by somebody try to fumble with a slide when their adrenaline is pumping and their motor skills are shot, and there is a gun pointed in their direction.

I am glad you have seen the light, please stop confusing people who have yet to make up their minds, with your verbal refuse.

I'm not confusing anyone. You are, with all your make up what if scenarios.

[kensteele]

Originally posted by Warp
Drawing? In my living room.

Heck yes it is the same. The draw stroke is the same.

I usually leave the trigger to the rear, and if not I make damn sure it is unloaded.

You absolutely do not have to pracice drawing with a loaded gun at the range.

Good. That's more practice for me then. :banana:

[Torontogunguy]

Hi guys:

1. I carry with one in the tube ready to go except with my Glocks at this point. I am building my comfort level though. In the meantime, I carry my Walther P99 which is close enough, with one in the tube and a heavier first shot trigger pull (and a decocker lever but no safety). The Walther has the added advantage of permitting multiple strikes on the same round should the round not go off... instead of trying to clear the round and fire again. Don't know if this is a good thing or bad thing; just an observation on my Walther.

2. On those days that I am wearing a good belt PLUS suspenders I will carry one of my 1911's in Condition 1 - cocked and locked. I am comfy with that. Takes a little more messing around to get it to go bang accidentally.

3. I have just ordered a HK P7M8 and a used P7PSP 'squeeze cocker' (you will pardon the expression). With these I will be absolutely comfortable carrying with one in the chamber. HK's independant reports state that the P7 line is the fastest 'draw & shoot' semiauto handgun on the market. Draw, grip it properly and fire. Period. My only beef is the price tag and the cost of extra magazines, of which I will now have to carry three instead of two to get the 20 extra rounds that I want on my belt... but the magazines fit into a camera pouch and are concealed nicely. I am hoping the P7 line is my answer to any discomfort in carrying a Glock 'ready to go'.

4. I am sure that someday I will have the comfort level to carry my Glocks 'ready to go' while concealed in a holster and pointed at the family jewels. Right now... I would be quite comfy carrying a Glock "ready to go" on my hip or in my armpit... aimed at something other than ME, as in a duty carry situation. No problem.

So... IMHO, the solution to discomfort carrying a Glock with one in the tube, cocked and ready to go? Don't. Carry a 1911. Carry an HK P7. Carry the Glock pointed at the floor or the wall instead of your arse.

But. And this is the big BUT. Always carry so as to enable you to get into action as fast as possible. I have actually had a trainer disarm me from fifteen feet away with me drawing and knowing that he was going to disarm me. It is easy to do. Speed is of the essence, so I have decided against tuckable holsters. I carry IWB or OWB with a cover garment of some sort, regardless of the weather. In the heat I will wear a T shirt two sizes too big over the holster. No time for ripping at clothes.

What I will not do personally... but each to his own... what I will not do is carry a Glock aimed at myself cocked and ready to go. That is one of the very first rules of gun handling safety is it not? "Do not aim a loaded gun at anything that you do not intend to kill".

Anyone have any experience with the HK P7's? After reading their reports I really like the idea of a squeeze cocker, especially with a fixed barrel for dead to nuts accuracy. But $2K?

[DJTHEMAC]

Originally posted by kensteele
I'm not confusing anyone. You are, with all your make up what if scenarios.

Yea i guess, we should never train or think of possible scenarios so that when the sht hits the fan we can all stand around with our thumbs up our collective butts. I like the way you think.


Fail.

[mike1969]

Ive stated the reason why mine is chambered. I deal with money every day. I might as well wear a target printed on my shirt to work. I am a target at work.

Hence, its chambered.

And if you have a thumb in your behind, you cant doo-doo.

[ki4dmh]

chambered all the time for me, but I have handled firearms everyday for the last twenty odd years.
Scott

[toyamabarnard]

Originally posted by kensteele
sure i think there are trade-offs but i'm trying to ascertain how valid are they. no one seems to think having your weapon concealed underneath several layers of clothing has much to do with timing and 5 feet. i don't see anybody trying to thin out their clothing, loosen up their tuck, and try to regain a few seconds. how many of us even practice from the draw? i bet less than half. to me, those are even more important.

Not to belittle the rest of your post, I just wanted to toss thoughts on this section....

It is a terrifying fact for me to think that of those of us carrying, some don't train or at least practice drawing holstered and fully clothed. I don't fire from the draw at the indoor range which is mainly where I shoot, but I do go several times a year to family property where it's legal and safe to shoot from the draw. As an LEO I was fortunate enough to have been trained that way from the start. Of course I was also trained to draw and double tap.

Even without drawing and firing, I can't imagine not practicing getting to your weapon and getting it out the way you carry. I love my Serpa holster and the security it offers, but I didn't carry in it until I had practiced enough to have the release of my weapon in muscle (reaction) memory. This took about a month and a half, but I wouldn't give that up. I practice, and have practiced for years drawing from every holster I've ever owned, on or off duty, and every way I carry. I do this fully clothed with just about every type of clothing I wear and I can effectively reach and draw my firearm with either hand from any place I carry even if I'm wearing layers and a winter coat. And yes, it may never happen and I may cut my wrist with the slide, but I can pull with my off hand and fire with my pinky if my arm was tied up.

A lot of this was things I had to learn and I know not everyone has the chance or finances for advance training, but if you carry you should absolutely know you can get to your firearm when you need it as well as knowing how to retain that weapon if the situation arrises.

You have to (at least kind of) know how to drive a car to get your driver's license, you should know how to access and use your weapon safely and effectively if you want this license.

I'm not cutting anyone down, I'm just saying that if you carry or even consider carrying I would highly reccomend that you learn to draw from your carry position and some weapon retention.

[xm15]

Originally posted by toyamabarnard
Not to belittle the rest of your post, I just wanted to toss thoughts on this section....

It is a terrifying fact for me to think that of those of us carrying, some don't train or at least practice drawing holstered and fully clothed...................

Even without drawing and firing, I can't imagine not practicing getting to your weapon and getting it out the way you carry.......

I practice, and have practiced for years drawing from every holster I've ever owned, on or off duty, and every way I carry. I do this fully clothed with just about every type of clothing I wear and I can effectively reach and draw my firearm with either hand from any place I carry even if I'm wearing layers and a winter coat.........

A lot of this was things I had to learn and I know not everyone has the chance or finances for advance training, but if you carry you should absolutely know you can get to your firearm when you need it as well as knowing how to retain that weapon if the situation arrises............

You have to (at least kind of) know how to drive a car to get your driver's license, you should know how to access and use your weapon safely and effectively if you want this license.


Glad to see another person who "gets it."

[kensteele]

Originally posted by toyamabarnard


It is a terrifying fact for me to think that of those of us carrying, some don't train or at least practice drawing holstered and fully clothed. I don't fire from the draw at the indoor range which is mainly where I shoot, but I do go several times a year to family property where it's legal and safe to shoot from the draw. As an LEO I was fortunate enough to have been trained that way from the start. Of course I was also trained to draw and double tap.

Even without drawing and firing, I can't imagine not practicing getting to your weapon and getting it out the way you carry. I love my Serpa holster and the security it offers, but I didn't carry in it until I had practiced enough to have the release of my weapon in muscle (reaction) memory. This took about a month and a half, but I wouldn't give that up. I practice, and have practiced for years drawing from every holster I've ever owned, on or off duty, and every way I carry. I do this fully clothed with just about every type of clothing I wear and I can effectively reach and draw my firearm with either hand from any place I carry even if I'm wearing layers and a winter coat. And yes, it may never happen and I may cut my wrist with the slide, but I can pull with my off hand and fire with my pinky if my arm was tied up.

A lot of this was things I had to learn and I know not everyone has the chance or finances for advance training, but if you carry you should absolutely know you can get to your firearm when you need it as well as knowing how to retain that weapon if the situation arrises.

You have to (at least kind of) know how to drive a car to get your driver's license, you should know how to access and use your weapon safely and effectively if you want this license.

I'm not cutting anyone down, I'm just saying that if you carry or even consider carrying I would highly reccomend that you learn to draw from your carry position and some weapon retention.

absolutely, and i agree. but you don't see a lot of posting going on about practicing the draw or talking about those particular aspects of training. mostly what you see is people talking about how effective the bullets are, when it is within their rights to shoot, or carrying chambered. not that those don't matter but you just don't see a lot of this type of training being discussed here. you do see a lot of talk about holsters tho. i should put up a poll and see how people respond to this. i think a lot of people think training has mostly to do with shooting straight and hitting your target. when it comes to retaining and wearing your weapon, most people seem to be mostly concerned about comfort, style, looks/reputation, and cost. i dunno, just my opinion. ccw is new to me (and others i'm sure) so it will be awhile before i'm "broken it" still switching guns and holsters....

[xm15]

Originally posted by kensteele
i think a lot of people think training has mostly to do with shooting straight and hitting your target.

Ken: I agree. There is more to training that just marksmanship.

Col. Cooper summed it up as what he called the Combat Triad.

Marksmanship
Weapon Handling & Manipulation
Mindset

Of those, marksmanship is probably the least critical to surviving a deadly force encounter.

It's too long to post in its entirety, but here is an article regarding training by Pat Rogers:
http://www.thegunzone.com/training.html

For those who don't know who Pat Rogers is, just do a quick search and you will find out.

[wattsbarbound]

And while this thread may have been asked many times, it is a question that is often pondered. I myself as well as most of you, I imagine, have asked yourself the very same question. My answer to myself is actually a question. Why carry if you are not prepared to pull and go BANG??!!! Therefore, I stand with one in the chamber. MOLON LABE!!:thumbsup:

[Ranger.357]

Are you kidding? Hell yes.

[Dinho]

Originally posted by toyamabarnard

You have to (at least kind of) know how to drive a car to get your driver's license, you should know how to access and use your weapon safely and effectively if you want this license.

but women get their drivers license all the time!:rofl: :banana:

and by the way, i practice my draw every day before i take off for the day.

i would love to take more training on the mindset aspect!

i plan on going to the TDI very soon.

[weybug]

Years ago I carried my Glock27 not chambered. I practiced drawing, racking and shooting (good range). Got pretty good at it. Then a good buddy (police officer) of mine who was training with me suggested I try to rack the slide one handed. I could do it, but it was difficult and slow during a non-stress situation. That cured me. Chambered it is.

[PAGLOCK23]

Never

[Mushin]

If your carrying a revolver and its chambered make sure its in a belly holster or sheathed somehow so the hammer doesn't get caught on the skivvies, and you end up blowin off the goods, better yet file off the hammer. Its not the pulling out that is the problem so much as its the shoving it into the pants that could be a problem. While where at it,, if you are using a revolver I hope its stainless. If its an auto, chamber the mother and carry it in the small of your back. And if its a revolver a nice shoulder holster is nice, or a break away fanny pack. The reason i like the small of the back for a firearm is In my experience its less of a distraction when you go to pull. And if your pulling with the right you can distract with the left, if close enough a Left (shuto) chop to the throat would be a winner. I know, I know, I get carried away sometimes.

[BSA70]

Yep, Ikeep my baby 33 charged. It's my bug and my best friend. In a life and death struggle in the ditch, I couldnt imagine pulling it out and having to charge it...

[xm15]

Originally posted by Medusa
If your carrying a revolver and its chambered make sure its in a belly holster or sheathed somehow so the hammer doesn't get caught on the skivvies, and you end up blowin off the goods, better yet file off the hammer.

Medusa: All modern revolvers made for the last several decades have firing pin block safeties that prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. You can load a modern DA revolver, pull back the hammer manually and let it fall on a live cartridge all day long and it will not fire unless the trigger is pulled at the same time.

[Ranger.357]

It's True

[Mushin]

Originally posted by xm15
Medusa: All modern revolvers made for the last several decades have firing pin block safeties that prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. You can load a modern DA revolver, pull back the hammer manually and let it fall on a live cartridge all day long and it will not fire unless the trigger is pulled at the same time.

Lets hope its quote "modern". I know guys that have had their firearms for a while. You kind of get attached. Especially if they are tricked out. I knew a guy that damn near blew his leg off. A dumb thing I know but that's why I brought it up. also some people have hair triggers. That being said. Your point is well taken. But I would still go for the rear position on the concealment..just my preference.

[Ranger.357]

I have 3 pieces that are 25 - 30 years old. Two Colt revolvers and a Walther. all have these safety plates.

[Mushin]

Your right about the plates. I just pulled out some of my pieces, Which leaves me to believe it was a hair trigger problem or just moving a little to fast. I don't know about older smith and Wesson's though,,will have to check. My ruger has a pin guard that allows you to dry fire also without damaging the pin. Like I said point well taken, I didn't mean to mislead anyone...chamber away!!!

[Dean]

During a close quarters attack you don't have time let alone two hands free to chamber a round. You'll be lucky ( read "fortunate") to draw and get the initial rounds off in that setting. As soon as a criminal sees your gun he's out to make it his gun and to murder you with it.

The way I see it, since I've got the money to buy rigid holsters designed to secure the weapon and protect the trigger, I feel comfortable carrying loaded semiautomatic weapons with a rouind in the chamber.
Having said that, if the question is asked "Can you possibly defend yourself with a handgun with no round chambered in some circumstances?" Quite often the answer is "Yes." Saavy criminals carry that way.

With rigid non - collapsible holsters which secure the weapon and protect the trigger thus preventing ( read "greatly reducing the probability of" ) acidental discharge, and a Glock Safe Action firearm, I always carry with a round in the chamber.
Absent those tools and conditions, I'd possibly carry semiautomatic pistols "Army style" without a round in the chamber. :drillsgt:

Glock 23 and S&W Model 36 firearms
Bianchi Carrylock and Blackhawk holsters
Crimson Trace laser grips - the only after market sight you'll ever need.
Emerson edged weapons
Fox Labs O.C. spray

[Mushin]

Yea that makes sense (previous post) a lot of good points there.
But if a guy is close quarters and attacks me (closer then an arms length) he's history, I will use my fighting (hand to hand) to disarm, and destroy and he's toast. Farther then that and he's got a gun already drawn, your call! You might want to consider having a edged weapon stashed somewhere. I think the main point though is if your really aware of your environment you will never let yourself get in a situation where someone has the drop on you. And if they do never submit, unless it a feign to get closer to him, because he will probably kill you anyway. And if you get offensive quick enough you probably will scare him enough to affect his aim.
Bottom line is criminals smell the fear in people and those are the ones they chose for victims. They don't like people that are warriors or are willing to overcome them, or die trying.

[Dean]

"I'm looking for at least one real life incident reported that will show something like "he pulled his legal concealed weapon but the criminal held his left arm down and the victim wasn't able to shoot and was subsequently killed...." Never happens. Could happen. Never happens. "

Buddy, there's no "It happened to me" report or "statistic" like that. I can offer you this though. I've seen robberies, and the perp is on the victim that fast, like snapping your fingers. They often pick guys weaker and smaller than they are for their victims. I saw a strong arm robber expertly pat down his victim for a weapon with his arm across the guy's throat from the front. the criminal was six four and built like a first string linebacker from Notre Dame.

There's some bad criminals out there, friend.
It's a world full of dope fiends and killers, and you don't want to give them an opening or an edge, because they'll use it. Especially an edge. You don't want to give them that, especially.
Trust me.

[Dean]

"If a guy is close quarters and attacks me closer then arms length he's history."
I'll use hand to hand to disarm and destroy and he's toast. Farther then that if he's got a gun already drawn, your call! You might want to consider having an edged weapon stashed somewhere. I think the main point though is if your really aware of your environment you will never let yourself get in a situation where someone has the drop on you. And if they do never submit, unless it a feint to get closer to him, because he will probably kill you anyway. If you go offensive quick enough you probably will scare him enough to affect his aim.
Bottom line is criminals smell the fear in people and those are the ones they chose for victims. They don't like people that are warriors or are willing to overcome them, or die trying."

Dean comments:

I like this guy's attitude. "Macho" which Colonel Cooper described as "Spirited and manly.", which is great.
Basically, I agree, except the older you get the less you can count on being able to whip every punk or Hells Angel.
Yeah, they do SEE not smell fear, but I know what you mean but the distinction is an important one because it's what the perp sees not some mysterious emotional thing. But some criminals are bad enough that they'll go for it anyhow. They'll attack an adult male citizen warrior. In reality there are many times a day when somebody could conceivably attack from your blind side.
I applaud the citizen warrior spirit. I try to embody it myself.
But it still helps to have a round in the chamber, if you can do so safely.

[Mushin]

amen

[Ranger.357]

If your packin like this maybe you shouldn't have one chambered

[USDefender]

Yes. When it's time to rock n' roll, it's time to rock n' roll... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-035.gif

[INFI]

Yes. I also keep my knives hair popping sharp, and fresh batteries in my surefires.

[Glockanatorrrrr]

For me I sit here typing this. 1 chambered and ready to go. I'm waiting for the next pop up........bang! lol I always have 1 ready for the BG.

[Torontogunguy]

Originally posted by Ranger.357
If your packin like this maybe you shouldn't have one chambered

SOB carry is not a preferred means to carry but there are worse. Appendix carry and Miami Classic, aka "Jackass" carry are two even less safe carry methods. Or are we talking safety here at all?

BTW, what kind of gun is that in the holster? Does it go bang by bumping the trigger and nothing else? Or does it require a good grip and/or a thumb safety to be flicked off?

Best bet, IMHO, if you are carrying GLOCK, leave the chamber empty unless you are using a holster that leaves NO ROOM for anything to bump that trigger.

Otherwise you want to be thinking perhaps about an HK P7M8 or P7M13 or PSP, each of which are supposedly, according to HK claims, safer and faster than the Glock. How they can be faster I am not sure. But safer I will agree with. Gripped they are cocked. Otherwise they are uncocked and safe. I am going to try one out shortly, along with my Glock 26 and Glock 30.

I rarely carry my Glocks with one in the tube ready to go for fear of misadventure; on the other hand, if in a situation where I am feeling comfy that the trigger is safe from bumps and grinds, I may just put one in the tube, which by definition also cocks the gun, safety off, ready to fire. Whew.

Back to the HK's

[Ranger.357]

Actually I was referring to the hammer position.

http://pics.greatestjournal.com/userpic/42488897/1894572

[Warp]

Originally posted by Ranger.357
Actually I was referring to the hammer position.

http://pics.greatestjournal.com/userpic/42488897/1894572

Looks like a good chance to cover a lot of area/people when drawing...and more difficult than need be to retain...and uncomfortable (if not impossible) use while seated.

What are the advnatages?

[Ranger.357]

This was their ad.

For extended comfort, especially for gun carriers who spend the day on their feet, the S.O.B.™ (Small Of Back) holster is a superior choice.

Carrying the handgun at the small of the back offers excellent concealment for many, since the covering garment can fall open without revealing the holstered handgun.

Meticulously crafted of the finest materials, this Galco's improved design features detailed hand molding and tension screw adjustment for security, stitched sight rails to protect both leather and sights, and full combat grip accessibility for swift and sure draw.

Constructed of premium saddle leather, the SOB fits belts up to 1 3/4".

Made for semiautomatic pistols and double-action revolvers, the SOB is available in right and left hand designs in tan or black finish.

[Torontogunguy]

Don't care who makes it and how good it might be, SOB carry is tough, even for young farts. It is the most difficult to reholster with one hand and the most difficult to reholster without sweeping the crowd and making plenty of friends. In reading any of the authoritative books on concealed carry or viewing any of the videos, the SOB carry is NOT recommended or is least recommended.

Having said that, with regards to the trigger on the 1911 pictured, it seems to me that it is likely being carried in condition 1, which is cocked and locked.

For those that are Glock-centric, that means that it is cocked AND LOCKED. It has a thumb safety engaged and it has a grip safety engaged, unlike the Glock which is much faster to the draw, but lacks the same safety features.

I have recently been investigating the HK squeeze cockers, the P7 line of pistols and their claim to fame is that they are the safest, fastest pistols to draw in the world and therefore command the highest price for any pistol on the market (there are more expensive ones but these puppies are $2,000 each). I have three on order now and a fourth order going in; along with orders for magazines and holsters to match. I believe that they are a viable alternative to Glocks... each serve their own purpose under various circumstances.

For instance, I tried a holster out on my Glock 30 last night that I would have little trouble carrying the G30 with one in the tube and holstered. It is Kydex and extremely well molded such that there is absolutely no way that anything is going to come into contact with that trigger. No way. I still have my concerns with holstering and reholstering, but under the appropriate circumstances, this is an ideal combo. Also, saw an ad for an outstanding ankle carry rig for the G30 that protects the trigger as well to the extent that I would not have a problem carrying it. Ditto for my G26.

Having said that; despite the exhorbitant price, the HK P7 series is vastly safer than a Glock for concealed carry just from looking at its operating characteristics.

I am torn. Truly. Comments?

[DJTHEMAC]

I am torn. Truly. Comments?

To me the PM7 is designed to cater to a demographic that needs the ultimate reassurance that their pistol is not going to "go off"

Without ever holding a PM7 I would consider myself far from an expert, but I personally do not think I would like the changing grip diameter due to the squeezing motion.

Glocks are simple. Keep you booger hook off the bang switch and you wont have to worry about these newfangled contraptions, or an AD.

[Torontogunguy]

Originally posted by DJTHEMAC
To me the PM7 is designed to cater to a demographic that needs the ultimate reassurance that their pistol is not going to "go off"

Without ever holding a PM7 I would consider myself far from an expert, but I personally do not think I would like the changing grip diameter due to the squeezing motion.

Glocks are simple. Keep you booger hook off the bang switch and you wont have to worry about these newfangled contraptions, or an AD.

I appreciate your comments but must disagree vehemently with your viewpoint.

Keeping one's booger hook off the bang switch as you so succinctly state is no guarantee that the gun won't go bang. There are plenty of other reasons for the gun to go bang while our booger hook is inserted in your booger repository....

For instance, reholstering is taking place with the gun cocked and ready to go with a relatively light trigger pull; it does not take rocket science to realize that a minor mishap in reholstering is going to put a round in your arse, removing instantly all of the fluff that has built up in that area.

Seriously though, it is not uncommon to get material caught in the trigger guard area while reholstering nor is it a real great idea to accidentally sweep the crowd with one in the tube and a cocked gun.... which is going to happen sooner or later. I cannot begin to tell you how many pro's I watch sweep their weak hand/arm when reholstering because they are not able to reholster with one hand yet.

This is not a problem with the 1911 of course, as most have grip safeties these days as well as thumb safeties and are carried in condition 1.

Nor is it a problem with the HK P7 series as immediately on releasing the grip one has 'uncocked' the gun and it is pretty much as safe as it is going to get.

As far as squeezing and getting a different feel for the grip; I will have to agree with you on that point as a target shooter. It is disconcerting even to have a different grip in static terms, let alone a grip that one must squeeze in order to have a cocked and ready to go pistol. However, user comments would indicate that this only takes a short while to get used to and then becomes second nature to most shooters. The second and third shots and so on require minimal 'squeeze' on the grip. Less than a grip safety on a 1911, which is tried and proven over decades of service by many military and police forces.

I am still torn and I suppose I will just have to give it a try and make up my own mind on the matter.

The holster issue is also interesting as the variety available for the P7 series is significantly less varied than most other makes.... after all, how many $2,000 guns are being sold? Having said that, these guns are so small that I don't expect it will be much of an issue to either find one that is 'universal' or find a pocket holster that works well with it. I am looking forward to playing around.

Am about done playing around with Glock 30 holsters and amazingly, I find that asides from the VMII, most holsters in the $29 range IWB are best for my concealed carry applications. One or two in particular offer me sufficient comfort to carry a G30 concealed without worrying about shooting myself in the fluff collector while reholstering.... the number one cause of AD's I believe.

Anyone out there want to trade their P7's for Glocks?

Thanks for the comments.

[DJTHEMAC]

I definitely agree that reholstering takes practice, and negligent reholstering can cause unwanted side effects. A common cause may occur more often during winter months when the elastic drawstring of a light jacket may be caught between the trigger guard.

It all depends on what you want. Sure a 1911 or PM7 will safer due to the additional safety features, but on the other hand, if your careful and competent with your reholstering, it should be a non-issue.

Overall, keep one chambered with whatever weapon you feel comfortable with, but know that even though glock may lack a few of the safety features found on other models, people are not blowing their assess off frequently enough to force Gaston to cut back on production. :)

[Torontogunguy]

There are two other issues with SOB (Small of Back) that come to mind. Firstly, if one has been injured or older and bothered by arthritis it is a very difficult place to get to even with adrenaline running. It is even more difficult to draw from without sweeping the crowd; in fact, almost impossible without a ton of practice and I am willing to bet that few on here invest time in the practice that is so essential to proper gun use. How many have taken courses in basic handgun combat? Advanced handgun combat? Advanced Tactical Handgun? These are all courses that are readily available and highly recommended... they stress safety and survival; not gunplay. And SOB carry is right at the bottom of the list somewhere around tucking your gun down the front of your pants.

The other thing that comes to mind with SOB carry is the difficulty one has with REholstering without having any sight of the holster or the clothing around it. I would be concerned with a gun like a Glock that something might come into contact with the trigger.

The picture depicts a 1911 style handgun being used.. which has a grip safety and a thumb safety and can be carried safely cocked and locked in condition 1 without fear of that trigger contact.