Considering appendix carry

[shad9876]

I currently carry a Kahr P9 Covert in the 3:30-4:00 position. I have no problems with concealing the gun form sight, but feel is another issue. i dont know how many times i get a hug from an aunt or inlaw or bump against some one and get the "what's that" question...huh...

So i am reconsidering my carry method. i have not bee able to comfortably carry in the pocket nor does it allow for a quick smooth draw. ankle carry seems to have too many flaws as well. I think i am down to appendix carry. i have tried it a few times and the draw is actually faster for me with even better concealment...as i dont have to worry about my shirt getting hung up on the butt of the gun everytime i bend over.

Anyways, i am very nervous with where the gun points when i carry appendix and even though i have been carrying 4:00 position for about 2 years now with a round in the pipe, i actually have carried for two days now in appendix position with no round chambered. I just keep picturing that pin falling on the firing cap and the lead twisting down the barrel and..well you get the picture.

I need reassurance that the gun CAN'T/WON'T go off unless the trigger is pulled!

[J.P.]

Appendix carry is the best option if you can pull it off.
There is no more accessable point from which to draw your gun.
I can appendix carry a fullsize Glock.A gun like the Kahr you describe will be like wearing nothing.
Look,the gun simply will not "go off" on it's own...the lawsuits would bankrupt firearms manufaturers.
Somebody has got to be there to pull the trigger.

[rvrctyrngr]

You've carried hot for 2 years without incident. It's not reasonable to assume that moving the gun forward on your body will change anything. Use a good quality holster, and all will be well. I carry a G23 that way often (and have been doing so for over 15 years), no holes in me yet!

Check this thread, as well.

Appendix Carry (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=739865&highlight=appendix)

[shad9876]

yeah, I know that it is not reasonable to think it, but...

do you think i would benefit much from the 1/2 shorter barrel of the pm9 as far as comfort?



Good thread should have some good information on holsters in it.

[rvrctyrngr]

I hear ya, Shad. Pointing a loaded gun at the boyz is not a natural act!

I'm not a huge guy (5'9, 160ish). I comfortably carry a G23, which is at least half again as large as your Kahr, and twice as thick. I would have to think you wouldn't even know the Kahr was there, given a properly made holster for the job, and pants that aren't cutting off your circulation to start with.

Also, on the hug thing....keep your arms low, forcing the hugger to wrap around your shoulders, not your waist!

[MarcoPolo]

I daily carry a G27 Appendix. A couple of observations which might be helpful.

1. The gun will NOT go off in a quality holster. You've already carried this way for a couple of years. Try this: with and UNLOADED gun, see if you can pull the trigger through your holster. Try as hard as you can. Convinced? ;)

2. You will have to find an appendix carry that works for you. It is very dependent on your gut. If you've got one, you can carry a bit UNDER the gut, around the belt line. If not, you can carry a bit higher. If you have a big gut which "prints", laying ANY gun on top of it will print too.

3. There is a WEALTH of information on Appendix carry on Warrior Talk (Gabe Suarez site). Gabe is a big proponent of appendix carry.

4. Not every holster works as well with appendix carry if you are going to carry it lower. I had a full sized kydex for a G19 which dug into my thigh. As I moved it higher, it wasn't an issue.

5. After you switch to appendix carry, you'll be amazed at how much FASTER you are. Also, you can access appendix carry from almost any situation (while defending yourself against strikes), grappling, pushed against a wall, etc.

6. (Edited) I usually find that NO CANT works better for concealment in Appendix. YMMV.

Believe me, you will see the light. ;)

GOOD LUCK!

[shad9876]

thanks for all the information. I have noticed that speed and access to my weapon are increased with appendix carry.

i just ordered a wilderness instructor belt and hopefully that will help. I think that my current belt is starting to twist and sag some. Even with my kahr covert in a fist kydex holster with a looper leather kydex lined belt in the 4:00 position i still find my self constantly doing the "lift and shift". i restore classic cars and so i am constantly lifting, pushing, pulling, bending over, crawling, reaching up, etc. all the day long and by the end of the day, sometimes i just can't wait to get the gun off. sometime i even take it off while i'm working and put it in the top drawer of my toolbox. i dont see how someone could do it with a full zise or a heavier gun.
As far as build, i am 6'1" 165lbs, 32-34 inseam, no gut.

Shad

[rvrctyrngr]

Shad,
Are you currently carrying IWB or OWB?

I think you'll find with IWB/Appendix with that little Kahr, you'll probably be doing a lot less of the lift/shift because the tension of your pants + belt tend to keep things more stable, and the front of your pants don't normally ride up and down with all the bending you do like the back does with a weight at 4:00. It should work fine with either the Wilderness or Looper belt.

I personally prefere leather for this carry style. Don't see how you guys shove that hard kydex into your pants!

Don Hume H715 works great (clip on/straight drop), and is inexpensive to boot.

[shad9876]

i have always carried IWB. I want the feel of leather, but i like the speed and thinness of kydex. i am open to suggestions.

[MarcoPolo]

I agree on leather. I always wore kydex until I went Appendix. Not that you can't wear kydex, but the leather seems much more comfortable to me and retention isn't as much of a concern.

[rvrctyrngr]

Since you are all ready using a FIST, why not try one of the kydex-lined leather holsters (leather-wrapped kydex holster?). Seems to be the best of both worlds....come to think of it, I think I'll order one myself! I think he makes one similar to the Hume 715.

[SilentGLOCK]

I just keep picturing that pin falling on the firing cap and the lead twisting down the barrel and..well you get the picture.

Well that's pretty much impossible with most striker-fired pistols such as Glock & Kahr. You must PULL the trigger, so it's your fault if you blow yer nuts off......

[SDefender]

For CCW without printing with my 5' 9", 155# body, experience has been the length and thickness of the handgun grip is my primary concern.

My Kahr PM9 is a dream to CCW in any place you like. I usually reserve it for summertime wear when necessary. My G36 is the preferred carry option and conceals as well or better than my G27.

All of my CCW is IWB, cross-draw. I have a closet full of expensive holsters and have standardized on appendix. I prefer the inexpensive IWB Galcos due to the flexibility and thinness of the leather. One model also incorporates a mag carrier with the holster. The Don Humes work well also but are stiffer and a little thicker.

[ER_STL]

Originally posted by shad9876
i have always carried IWB. I want the feel of leather, but i like the speed and thinness of kydex. i am open to suggestions.

I bought a $12 nylon holster from my local shop a few weeks back with the specific purpose of Appendix carry in mind. On its own it has little retention but when it's inside my belt it has similar retention to my CTAC. It's perfect for tucking in a pair of shorts or jeans (without a belt if need be). As long as the waist allows a little extra room -- as jeans or pants that you normally use IWB with should -- then I find this method of carry to be very comfortable. I keep the holster as high as I can to avoid stabbing myself with the muzzle when I sit.

You might consider something like this to try out Appendix carry. If you like it you can either buy a better holster or stick with the cheapo if it works for you.

[shad9876]

do any of ya'll that carry appendix do so with a tucked in shirt? can this be pulled of very easily without a weird tooking protrusion from your front side? do you have to blouse your shirt out quite a bit?
carrying at 4:00, i always bought tuckable holsters as i could generally pull off the tuck in the 4:00.
i am trying to decide if i want to purchase a tuckable or not. the holster i am looking at purchasing is the high noon. either the mr. softy or the Hidden alley. if i rule out tucking my shirt in, i would also consider the Galco Stow N Go


High Noon MRSOFTY http://highnoonholster.com/Product_Line/_Mr_Softy/_mr_softy.html

High Noon Hidden Alley http://highnoonholster.com/Product_Line/Hidden_Ally/hidden_ally.html

Galco Stow N Go
http://www.tactical-store.com/ts-gc-ht-dbdfcd.html

[SDefender]

Originally posted by shad9876
do any of ya'll that carry appendix do so with a tucked in shirt? can this be pulled of very easily without a weird tooking protrusion from your front side? do you have to blouse your shirt out quite a bit?
carrying at 4:00, i always bought tuckable holsters as i could generally pull off the tuck in the 4:00.
i am trying to decide if i want to purchase a tuckable or not. the holster i am looking at purchasing is the high noon. either the mr. softy or the Hidden alley. if i rule out tucking my shirt in, i would also consider the Galco Stow N Go


High Noon MRSOFTY http://highnoonholster.com/Product_Line/_Mr_Softy/_mr_softy.html

High Noon Hidden Alley http://highnoonholster.com/Product_Line/Hidden_Ally/hidden_ally.html

Galco Stow N Go
http://www.tactical-store.com/ts-gc-ht-dbdfcd.html

I wear strictly golf type shirts with the tail out, long sleeve or short sleeve. I do have a tuckable holster but do not use it. If a cell phone is carried on the same side as the gun, and the shirt rides around it with the cell phone showing, one can conceal almost anything and never print for any reason I have found.

[rvrctyrngr]

Originally posted by shad9876
do any of ya'll that carry appendix do so with a tucked in shirt? can this be pulled of very easily without a weird tooking protrusion from your front side? do you have to blouse your shirt out quite a bit?
carrying at 4:00, i always bought tuckable holsters as i could generally pull off the tuck in the 4:00.
i am trying to decide if i want to purchase a tuckable or not. the holster i am looking at purchasing is the high noon. either the mr. softy or the Hidden alley. if i rule out tucking my shirt in, i would also consider the Galco Stow N Go


High Noon MRSOFTY http://highnoonholster.com/Product_Line/_Mr_Softy/_mr_softy.html

High Noon Hidden Alley http://highnoonholster.com/Product_Line/Hidden_Ally/hidden_ally.html

Galco Stow N Go
http://www.tactical-store.com/ts-gc-ht-dbdfcd.html

I've tried tucked with appendix carry. I'm too thin to pull it off. I had to blouse the shirt so much, it looked like I was wearing a radial tire around my midsection. Untucked works and looks much better FOR ME.

[igor]

i use a blade tech iwb kydex holster in the appendix position and have done so for many years. i just take the rear loop off and only use te front one. i carry my gl 19 or my 26 in there holsters with no problems. i can draw and fire two rounds at ten meters in about 1.21 seconds or so the time says.
i have been carrying appendix since i first became a police in 1971, first with revolvers and then with autos ad never had a problem

[shad9876]

is there much of an advantage/disadvantage of the metals clips vs. the plastic clips. one problem i've had in the past with holsters, especially j-clips is the instability and the way that they shift around so much unless i cinch my belt up really tight.

do the metal clips hold better?

what is the MOST stable/sturdy clip or device to hold the holster to the belt that you have used?

[Leathercrafter]

shad9876:

I carry the same gun (P9 Covert) in one of the holsters we used to offer. I wear it in the appendix position ~1:00. The holster has a single metal clip that securely holds it in place. The only thing I need to do, and would recommend to you as well, is to get (make myself) a gun belt.

I prefer the appendix carry position because the gun is easily concealed. It's easily accessible in a variety of ways. I wear a t-shirt and it's a quick lift and draw of the gun. I can easily access the gun when driving.

[isis07734]

Think you'll ever make another AIWB holster for sale?

[rvrctyrngr]

Originally posted by isis07734
Think you'll ever make another AIWB holster for sale?

Ditto what Isis said, Kevin. Please make the clip-on IWB again (but use the kydex J-hook...metal bends, as I've found with a few holsters from another maker)!!! I'd much rather keep my $$ in the state. Though I don't own any of your products (yet), I've seen quite a few, and they are TOP NOTCH!

[shad9876]

i am considering the high noon mr.soft and the galco stow-n-go. They are about the same price.

the features that i find different are:

-the plastic clip vs metal clip
-the stow-n-go appears to ride higher than the mr.softy, which is a feature i like.

I would like a holster than rides somewhat higher.

do ya'll prefer the metal over the plastic?

what are your opinions on these two holsters?

Mr softy http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Product_Line/_Mr_Softy/_mr_softy.html

Sow-n-go http://www.opticsplanet.net/picture-2-galco-stow-n-go-inside-the-pant-holster-glock-27-sto286.html
thanks,
shad

[mikegun]

i carry s g26 and a g23 appendix, and i9 agree with a previous poster, the chap, hume 715 works perfectly for this carry, u casn also use cross draw appedx, carry with thyis holster,very comfy gun and holster bend with belly movements,but dont move on the belt...very very fast to acquire the pistol from,not as obvious when u draw,little shoulder movement, i cant see any downside..

[SDefender]

Originally posted by shad9876
i am considering the high noon mr.soft and the galco stow-n-go. They are about the same price.

the features that i find different are:

-the plastic clip vs metal clip
-the stow-n-go appears to ride higher than the mr.softy, which is a feature i like.

I would like a holster than rides somewhat higher.

do ya'll prefer the metal over the plastic?

what are your opinions on these two holsters?

Mr softy http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Product_Line/_Mr_Softy/_mr_softy.html

Sow-n-go http://www.opticsplanet.net/picture-2-galco-stow-n-go-inside-the-pant-holster-glock-27-sto286.html
thanks,
shad

I use the Galco Stow-n-Go (primary) and the Walkabout. Have tried others and these are my standards. The Walkabout is the Stow-N-Go with a higher spring retaining top, which I cut off and it adds a spare mag carrier- just in case. I like the plastic clip which is reliable and retains well. Works great for my G27 and G36.

[Dean]

Stay with the 3 or 4 o'clock strong side carry. Don't go moving your gun around to try to hug people so they don't feel your pistol. That doesn't make 'no sense.

Of course appendix carry can go off. It's a gun, right? That you're struggling to draw while a guy is trying to grab it, right? It can go off shooting you in the pelvis or the femoral artery.

Do what already works. :drillsgt:

[J.P.]

Originally posted by Leathercrafter
shad9876:

I carry the same gun (P9 Covert) in one of the holsters we used to offer. I wear it in the appendix position ~1:00. The holster has a single metal clip that securely holds it in place. The only thing I need to do, and would recommend to you as well, is to get (make myself) a gun belt.

I prefer the appendix carry position because the gun is easily concealed. It's easily accessible in a variety of ways. I wear a t-shirt and it's a quick lift and draw of the gun. I can easily access the gun when driving.
Doi you have a link to that holster?

[J.P.]

Originally posted by Dean
Stay with the 3 or 4 o'clock strong side carry.

Unfortunately carry in that position has more disadvantages than advantages.

[CBennett]

Originally posted by J.P.
Unfortunately carry in that position has more disadvantages than advantages.

go with Appendix carry. Im switching(ditching) all my 3/4 o' clock holsters and going straight appendix. I like the advantages and dont mind the "disadvantages".

[shad9876]

just for clarification/reassurance, explain to me the internal safety mechanism(s) of a kahr p9?

my understanding is that:
-with a round chambered the firing pin is only ~half pulled/cocked.

is this correct? if so, if this safety mechanism were to fail, is the ~half travel distance enough to fire a round?

Is the physical pulling of the trigger (or the trigger getting caught on something) the ONLY way that a kahr p9 can go bang?

[mikegun]

i have owned and carried i many holsters,with respect to app carry i also use a hume 715, its made well and quite cheap , for some reason it lends itself to app carry as well as cross draw app carry, after a few days you wont know its there, i carried on my hip for many yrs and app carry is like greased lightning fast in the draw...you wont be sorry....

[ADK]

Bruce Nelson, who designed the famous Summer Special design, originally designed that particular holster to be carried around the appendix and not the current strong-side position that most "modern" holsters mandate. He, like many narcotics officers of the day, claimed that appendix carry offered the advantage of being faster than a strong-side carry.

However, the appendix carry is looked down upon primarily due to the influence of certain training institutions (located in Arizona) and competition groups within the shooting community. Don't show up carrying a pistol in the appendix--see what happens.

According to Jeff Cooper from his 1972 book Cooper on Handguns, appendix carry is both faster and easier to protect than any other type of carry location. Cooper noted that Nelson had adopted the habit of sloppy dress with a tails out shirt and a peace-nik slouch which concealed, and protected the piece, but allowed for a startlingly fast draw.

Problems with this type of carry include the initially uncomfortable pointing of the pistol at the groin equipment. Holsters suitable for this type of carry are in short supply, although that is starting to change. Finally, this type of carry tends to be uncomfortable for those who tend toward large waistlines.

Advantages include the ease of getting to the pistol (especially during grappling/hand-to-hand combat situations--and if you know anything about Gabe Suarez, that's the reason he advocates this type of carry); seated access, potential for covert drawing, and the truth that the hands can generally get to centerline easier and faster (under most circumstances) than getting behind the back or to the side.

This type of carry is eschewed at shooting schools because most schools train to a basic level of proficiency. "Never let your muzzle cover ANYTHING but the dirt and the target", becomes an inviolable mantra to avoid accidents, and safety lapses are dealt with quickly. However, once these "failsafe" practices are internalized we can move from the "crawl" to a "walk" or "run." In the real world you will not be using the same clinical processes you use on the firing line of a class--and not all of the methods of carry advocated for the range work very well in the real world.

No method of carry is perfect and is influenced by a number of factors including dress requirements, crowded or sparse operational areas, waist girth and physical state, etc. Each person must select what suits them best, but don’t dismiss one way simply because of what someone told you. Look at the different modes of carry and test them, and then select the one which offers you the best utility, and then test the hell out of it in force on force drills to see if it works for you.

Personally, I like appendix carry--when I had to carry a duty Beretta 92F it was the most concealed method I found for the big pistol. Igor mentioned taking the second loop off the Bladetech holster. How ironic--the original Bruce Nelson version of the summer special (and the first Sparks version) only had a single loop to better facilitate this type of carry.

Like others have said, you should not have any problems carrying a Glock in this position--once you get past the fact that your pistol is pointed at your groin. The gun cannot go off unless something presses the trigger. So as long as there is nothing accidentally inside the holster you need not worry.

Good luck!

[rvrctyrngr]

Good info, ADK.

As stated previously, I AIWB often. Favourite holsters for this method are the Hume 715, Galco Scout (though I found the trigger guard area of the holster has to be relieved a with a dremel to facilitate a proper grip on first contact), and the Alessi Talon (great, if you can find one). I tried the classic summer special for a while, but the cant made the draw stroke awkward for me. I prefer straight drop for this method.

I don't consider this method any more inherrently unsafe than other methods (strong side OWB is my other primary carry method). 25+ years of carrying, gnarbles still attached, no holes where there shouldn't be one.

YMMV.