Wal-Mart to ban CCW and Open Carry in Southwest Virginia Stores [Archive]

Jake-Gallows

08-29-2007, 10:07

I spoke on the phone this morning with the district super. of the Southwest VA stores. He told me that they had been doing work with their legal department, and had cleared it with their home office to ban CCW and open carry in stores in Christiansburg, Fairlawn, Salem, and then Roanoke stores.
He said that after the VA Tech shootings, customers and employees did not feel safe with people carrying firearms around in the stores. I asked him why they would deny citizens the right to defend themselves...he said that did not matter, and they were doing what they had every right to do.
If ANYONE wants to contact him, his information is:
Terry Sartain: 276-236-1269 (right now that is all the info I have)

Remember, lots of...if not all... stores in this state and others will fall into place with these as soon as they can see it will happen.....so will other store chains that look to wal-mart as an example.

WIG19

08-29-2007, 10:32

Had you heard something afoot before? Just curious what precipitated the discussion.

So their legal department has come to the irrefutable conclusion that a company policy will keep an armed sociopath out of their stores... and they're basing this upon how many horrifying shootings in their stores carried out by permit holders...?

Any further info besides the phone number will be helpful.

:patriot:

rvrctyrngr

08-29-2007, 10:49

Does signage carry any weight of law in VA?

johnnyg08

08-29-2007, 10:56

Let's continue to make policy and laws because of ignorant and uninformed citizens...wow...that is just plain crazy...because we all know that if the sign is up...then the bad guy won't come in w/ the gun.

lethal tupperwa

08-29-2007, 11:13

I feel that if you are not at a range or a Law Enforcement Officer in uniform open carry is well rude.

It may be a right but I don't feel that it is polite.

I am not impressed by a rent-a-wannabe.

"Some of the people" I have seen doing it (and I don't mean all) looked like their big skill was not drooling on themselves.

It is like a felon now having an interest in archery.

Or a convicted DUI taking up bicycle riding.

Jake-Gallows

08-29-2007, 11:15

Originally posted by WIG19
Had you heard something afoot before? Just curious what precipitated the discussion.

So their legal department has come to the irrefutable conclusion that a company policy will keep an armed sociopath out of their stores... and they're basing this upon how many horrifying shootings in their stores carried out by permit holders...?

Any further info besides the phone number will be helpful.

:patriot:

I will try to get some email addresses and an address. If anyone else can do so, please do.

This discussion was brought about when two CCW students of mine were thrown out of the store by a manager for open carrying while they were getting hearing protection before a class. The assistant manager (Jim Hancock, Fairlawn VA store) basically walked up to them and MADE them leave the store or have them arrested for trespassing.
When the students told me about this, I called and talked with the district super. to find out what the policy was. That is when he told me about the new policy to take place as soon as the signs were ready.

Jake-Gallows

08-29-2007, 11:20

Bacchus99

08-29-2007, 12:16

I can semi understand banning open carry. But not CCW...that is dumb. Oh well if my walmart gets posted i'll just shop somewhere else.

AJ Dual

08-29-2007, 12:36

This seems to be in conflict with Wal-Mart corporate policy to respect the CCW status of the state their stores reside in.

I would skip the store and the DM and contact Wal-Mart Corporate HQ directly. I have a strong suspicion the store manager and the district manager are bluffing that they've worked with legal and WMCHQ in attempt to make you give up.

My guess is they might be allowed to ban open carry by WMCHQ, as it would disturb the sheeple's shopping experience, startling them out of the usual cud-chewing and scanning with their side-mounted herbivore eyes for Mr. Flying Smiley Face and his low low low prices etc. etc. etc. IIRC, there's anecdotal evidence that WM has ejected OC'ers from other stores out west.

However, I'd be shocked if they really go ahead with a total ban on both OC and CCW. Especialy considering an elderly CCW holder just recently saved the life of a female WM Deli Dept. employee over in AZ from a knife wielding ex husband.

If anything, WMCHQ gets very testy when lower echelon store managers pretend to speak on their behalf. :thumbsup:

Elmer Fudd

08-29-2007, 13:21

My understanding is that they have always been against open carry and allow concealed carry. This seems like a reasonable policy considering all sides of the issue.

Tito

08-29-2007, 13:26

I wonder if the legal department saw the video of the woman who's life was saved in Walmart by the citizen with the CCW?

WIG19

08-29-2007, 13:31

Originally posted by AJ Dual
However, I'd be shocked if they really go ahead with a total ban on both OC and CCW. Especialy considering an elderly CCW holder just recently saved the life of a female WM Deli Dept. employee over in AZ from a knife wielding ex husband.

If anything, WMCHQ gets very testy when lower echelon store managers pretend to speak on their behalf. :thumbsup: What he said. :cool:

Lethal's ref to a "rent a wannabe" would be someone working security for a temp agency who believes that minding the store at night is their pathway to a stellar career in LE. Such a person, I'm certain, owns more 5.11 gear than I do... sumpin' like that.

:patriot:

ATW525

08-29-2007, 13:31

I don't see much reason to go to Wally World (or any other store) with a pistol openly carried on my hip. I also am a firm believer that concealed means concealed (as long as you're not breaking any laws), and if you're doing it right, nobody at Wal-Mart should know you're armed.

Riz58

08-29-2007, 13:39

I think that if you push the open carry issue, both open and CCW will be banned becasue they will simply post "no firearms" signs. There is not practical way to post a sign that says "no open carry, but we allow conceald carry" signs that would not freak out the Muggles.

It is a customer comfort issue, not a constitutional one. Re-read toe sticky on carry methods and open carry, I think it is item four.

I would emphasize that while I understand your concern over open carry - fears of customers not familiar with firearsm - banning concealed carry would do nothing to address that concern. There have been no reported negative experiences at Wal-Mart with regard to CCW, and one positive experience - an employee's life was saved.

Our constitutional RKBA does not apply to a non-government actor. A private party can ban firearms, require firearms, or any conbination of the above on its personal property. The better course is to educate regarding CCW, note that there have not been any moves since VT to impose stricter regualtions regarding firearms so why should Wal-Mart buck the trend, and remind them that firearms owners constitute a large and loyal part of their customer base and a total ban would risk alienting them nationwide.

Raden

08-29-2007, 13:50

I just spoke to the local Manager and here's what he said. It's the Corporate Policy to allow carry as long as it is lawful. They will ask you to cover up if you open carry and aren't a LEO, then if you don't they can ask you to leave or even ban you from the store if they think it's necessary. Cover up... it's that simple. Why draw attention to yourself unless that's what your looking for

WIG19

08-29-2007, 13:56

Originally posted by Infiholic
I just spoke to the local Manager and here's what he said. It's the Corporate Policy to allow carry as long as it is lawful. They will ask you to cover up if you open carry and aren't a LEO, then if you don't they can ask you to leave or even ban you from the store if they think it's necessary. Cover up... it's that simple. Why draw attention to yourself unless that's what your looking for That's pretty much what's been seen in the past from responsible local managers, echoing the real corporate policy. The rest regarding open-carry (rude, as Lethal put it) is likely - for them - a decorum issue. I'd not open-carry when I could conceal for other reasons as well. Again, kinda like wanton exercise of 1st Amendment by publications - just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

:patriot:

CBDAVIS

08-29-2007, 14:31

Don't know the law there carrying in stores that are posted, but in Oklahoma all they can do is ask you to leave.

Warp

08-29-2007, 14:39

I have openly carried in multiple Walmarts, multiple times. Never had an issue, even when I spent 30-60 minutes in the store.

One time an employee made a comment about how I must still be "on duty". When I told him not only was I not on duty, but not a cop, he said "and they let you walk around like that"? I said yes, then explained the permit system, and he said that he was unaware. That is the extent that anybody seemed to care.

RussP

08-29-2007, 15:07

Went into a local WAWA (large gas/covenience center) the other day with my wife. I was open carrying a G20 IWB. Walking out the cashier that took our money said to the other woman working their, "DID YOU SEE THAT, he has a gun!"
The other woman said, "It took you long enough to see it, and THAT MAN is not a problem."
I turned and smiled at them both, nodded my head.
That was the second surprised response to open carrying in 4-years.

And the only reason I was open carrying was we had not planned on stopping there, so I had no cover garment. We'd been out to an early supper where I had to open carry due to the Commonwealth's dumb restriction on concealed carry where liquor is served.

:cool:

ScottSt

08-29-2007, 15:19

Originally posted by ATW525
I also am a firm believer that concealed means concealed Where exactly on your NH Pistol and Revolver License does it say "concealed?"

happy seal

08-29-2007, 15:28

I was ccw in Walmart the other day with G27. I was there to buy .40 cal and .22 cal. I had to wait 10 minutes for the key for the locked cabinet. At that point two employees were on either side of me. I was suspect of this. Then I was asked if the ammo was for a pistol or rifle. I asked why you are asking me this and she said because if it was for a rifle I had to be 18 years old. If it was for a pistol you have to be 21 years old. I asked her how old do you think I am? She said " I don't know ". Well I am 41 years old. At that point the transaction was completed and two large suit and tie employees walked up to the area we were in. I looked at them and smiled and said have a good day. I don't think I was printing and am not sure what that was all about. I never had any ccw issues or printing issues. I do know that cameras are everywhere in that place.
What do you all think??????????

:upeyes:

Warp

08-29-2007, 15:35

Originally posted by ATW525
I also am a firm believer that concealed means concealed

None of my licenses/permits (including one from New Hampshire) contain the word concealed, so I am not sue what you are referring to.

happy seal

08-29-2007, 15:51

Warp,
My permit does not include the word "concealed". But I think if your state does not have open carry laws then there is only concealed allowed. Just a guess.
Happy Seal

Warp

08-29-2007, 15:58

Originally posted by happy seal
Warp,
My permit does not include the word "concealed". But I think if your state does not have open carry laws then there is only concealed allowed. Just a guess.
Happy Seal

Both my former and current state allow open or concealed carry with a license. Nowhere does it say concealed, and legally I cannot find one single difference between the two.

BTW: If there are no laws concerning open carry, it is legal.

That which is not prohibited is by definition permitted.

There isn't a law that says you can own a computer, is there? So how do you know it's legal? Because it is not prohibited.

dmx11523

08-29-2007, 16:08

You shouldn't be shopping at Walmart anyways. This should be just another reason to shop elsewhere.

There is are high costs to those "low prices".

MADE IN CHINA it's the American way.

Warp

08-29-2007, 16:09

rugershooter

08-29-2007, 19:19

Originally posted by dmx11523
You shouldn't be shopping at Walmart anyways. This should be just another reason to shop elsewhere.

There is are high costs to those "low prices".

MADE IN CHINA it's the American way.

Yeah, punish them for being a good capitalist company that works within the system to provide products at a low price to consumers. How dare them do things "the American way"- which is exactly what they do.

Elmer Fudd

08-29-2007, 19:19

Originally posted by dmx11523
You shouldn't be shopping at Walmart anyways. This should be just another reason to shop elsewhere.

There is are high costs to those "low prices".

MADE IN CHINA it's the American way.

A lot of criticism of Wal-Mart is by people parroting what the press told them to think.

I used to work for a Wal-Mart supplier. They were a tough but fair customer. They had the highest ethical standard of any company we dealt with. To my knowledge, they were not the first to push into China in a big way. K-Mart was. They were so screwed up and inefficient they could not beat Wal-Mart on price. They had too much overhead at their beautiful black glass campus up in Michigan, with too many admin people playing political games and trying to screw their vendors. Whereas, when you went to talk to the Wal-Mart buyer is was in his cubicle in an old Wal-Mart building in Bentonville, Arkansas. There was no buying lunches for the buyer, gifting at the holidays, etc. It was all business. So K-Mart took a short cut to lower prices. China. Everyone had to follow. Wal-Mart dropped their made in the USA campaign at that point.

ATW525

08-29-2007, 19:24

Originally posted by Warp
None of my licenses/permits (including one from New Hampshire) contain the word concealed, so I am not sue what you are referring to.

What does the wording on your permit have anything to do with what I said? If you're going to conceal carry, make sure it is in fact concealed and nobody will be the wiser. If you're going to open carry (or hap-hazardly conceal carry), that's fine too (assuming it's legal), but don't be surprised when people ask you to leave the premises. The manager/business owner is unlikely to care that your permit doesn't specifically say concealed on it.

Warp

08-29-2007, 19:33

Originally posted by ATW525
What does the wording on your permit have anything to do with what I said? If you're going to conceal carry, make sure it is in fact concealed and nobody will be the wiser. If you're going to open carry (or hap-hazardly conceal carry), that's fine too (assuming it's legal), but don't be surprised when people ask you to leave the premises. The manager/business owner is unlikely to care that your permit doesn't specifically say concealed on it.

It is relevant because you said "concealed means concealed" and used that as reasoning for not carrying openly. Since "concealed" never appears, anywhere, I don't see how it relates.

As I said above, I have carried openly (in other businesses besides Walmart as well) and nobody has asked me to leave, called the police, or made any other negative comments.

ScottSt

08-29-2007, 19:33

Originally posted by dmx11523
There is are high costs to those "low prices". Not to me, there aren't. Walmart probably saves me $200-$300 a month in grocery and other bills, and that's before I add in ammo.

ScottSt

08-29-2007, 19:36

Originally posted by ATW525
What does the wording on your permit have anything to do with what I said? If you're going to conceal carry, make sure it is in fact concealed and nobody will be the wiser. If you're going to open carry (or hap-hazardly conceal carry), that's fine too (assuming it's legal), but don't be surprised when people ask you to leave the premises. The manager/business owner is unlikely to care that your permit doesn't specifically say concealed on it. I agree with Warp. You said, "Concealed means concealed." Well, fine, but who said "concealed?" It's just a meaningless comment on your part.

CowboyKen

08-29-2007, 20:15

My Nevada permit says, "Concealed Firearms Permit." There is no law in the Nevada Revised Statutes about "open" carry.

The state Attorney General's web site says, "Nevada has an open carry law that permits a person to carry a handgun in plain view."

Signs on private property prohibiting weapons have no legal standing in Nevada. Property owners can require you to leave for any reason, except race, religion, etc., under the trespass laws.

It can be very confusing.

Ken

Mingus Jim

08-29-2007, 20:28

Originally posted by Infiholic
I just spoke to the local Manager and here's what he said. It's the Corporate Policy to allow carry as long as it is lawful. They will ask you to cover up if you open carry and aren't a LEO, then if you don't they can ask you to leave or even ban you from the store if they think it's necessary. Cover up... it's that simple. Why draw attention to yourself unless that's what your looking for I had heard, but never confirmed, that Wal-Mart's policy was not to allow open carry. However, I did see a little old cowboy (looked like a real one in his 70s), in the local Wal-Mart wearing a large revolver on his right hip and a large hunting knife on his left hip.

Warp

08-29-2007, 20:31

Originally posted by Mingus Jim
I had heard, but never confirmed, that Wal-Mart's policy was not to allow open carry. However, I did see a little old cowboy (looked like a real one in his 70s), in the local Wal-Mart wearing a large revolver on his right hip and a large hunting knife on his left hip.

http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/law_regs/postedletters/walmart-reply1.asp

EMAIL FROM TFA MEMBER:

Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 7:25 PM
Subject: Fwd: Wal-Mart Handgun Carry Policy

Dear TFA,
>I wrote to Wal-Mart and asked what policy, if any, their company had
>regarding the lawful carry of concealed handguns in their stores by
>holders of Tennessee Handgun Carry Permits. I also told them that I
>would be glad to share their response with the TFA so that through your
>newsletters and webpage you could share that information with permit
>holders statewide.
> I was pleased to get their answer affirming the right to carry in
>their stores. I have attached their response below. Their only concern
>was that a concealed weapon be concealed. Of course, as you point out
>on your page, it also is true that Tennessee law forbids carry in stores
>that sell alcohol.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REPLY FROM WALMART:
From: Letters to the President letters@wal-mart.com
To: [deleted]
Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 3:03 PM

Thank you for contacting Wal-Mart regarding our concealed handgun policy. Wal-mart was founded by Sam Walton on three principles: Strive for Excellence, Service to our Customers, and Respect for the Individual. It is that respect for the individual that led us to create the current policy pertaining to concealed handguns.

The following is our policy: if a Wal-mart customer has been aearded a concealed handgun license by the state government, Wal-Mart will follow the direction of the state. However, if at anytime while on Wal-Mart property, that customer's concealed weapon becomes visible to Wal-Mart associates or customers, Wal-Mart reserves the right to ask the customer to either reposition the weapon so that it will not be visible, to remove the weapon completely or to leave Wal-Mart property.

With the exception of law enforcement personnel, Wal-Mart does not allow any exposed weapons to be worn or carried in public view on Wal-mart property or in Wal-Mart stores. Customers other than low enforcement personnell wearing or carring a weapon in an exposed manner will be asked to leave the property immediately.

We appreciate your concern and trust that this has addressed your concerns regarding this issue.

SIGShooter

08-29-2007, 20:42

Originally posted by lethal tupperwa
I feel that if you are not at a range or a Law Enforcement Officer in uniform open carry is well rude.

It may be a right but I don't feel that it is polite.

I am not impressed by a rent-a-wannabe.

"Some of the people" I have seen doing it (and I don't mean all) looked like their big skill was not drooling on themselves.

It is like a felon now having an interest in archery.

Or a convicted DUI taking up bicycle riding.

Isn't it a law in virginia that if you are in a restaraunt that serves alcohol you have to Open Carry? So you now have to be a cop in order to excersise your rights? You must think all Virginians who OC are rude. Way to support your fellow carriers. :upeyes: I'm glad to have you on the Pro 2nd Amendment side. :upeyes:

ATW525

08-29-2007, 22:10

It is relevant because you said "concealed means concealed" and used that as reasoning for not carrying openly.

It's completely irrelevent because my "concealed means concealed" remark had nothing to do with the wording of carry permits. It had everything to do with the fact that nobody would be the wiser if you were carrying a properly concealed handgun. ScottSt and yourself are simply reading more meaning into my words than there actually is.

I agree with Warp. You said, "Concealed means concealed." Well, fine, but who said "concealed?" It's just a meaningless comment on your part.

I can't answer your question because it's based on a erronous assumption of my meaning.

Here, I reworded my post in a way that may make my intention more clear:

I don't see much reason to go to Wally World (or any other store) with a pistol openly carried on my hip. I also am a firm believer that if you choose to carry concealed, you should do your best to conceal it (as long as you're not breaking any laws), and if you're doing it right, nobody at Wal-Mart should know you're armed.

ETA: To sum it up even better, after giving it some more thought, what I'm trying to say is that a policy against CCW is effectively unenforcable if you're in fact carrying concealed. The only way for them to know you're carrying is to set up metal detectors at the door and have security personal screen every customer, which isn't going to happen (Of course you should always obey "No Guns" signs in localities where said signs have the force of law, obviously).

Jake-Gallows

08-29-2007, 23:05

It is strange how EVERY SINGLE ONE of these threads gets hijacked by people wanting to argue the semantics of their CCW or if it is rude, crude, silly, lame, etc, etc, to open carry.
Is it so hard to stick to the point, and stick together and try to get something done?
Everyone here has a voice, and we should use them to let Wal-Mart know we can choose NOT TO SPEND MONEY THERE.
Virginia may be first, but your state might be next!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WIG19

08-30-2007, 05:51

Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
Everyone here has a voice, and we should use them to let Wal-Mart know we can choose NOT TO SPEND MONEY THERE.
Virginia may be first, but your state might be next!!!!!!!!!!!!! I and many who frequent this forum have inquired and received the exactly-worded policy from Walmart Corporate HQ as posted above. My suggestion would be, if encountering a local rogue store manager, to advise them of Corporate's published policy on the matter; you could even show it to them. If they don't already understand that they don't trump Bentonville they should be looking in the classifieds (or they will be shortly).

Their decision to not permit open-carry is theirs (whether for decorum, or because they don't think your Level-Nothing holster can prevent a grab during the Christmas rush), is a private-property rights matter, and is not worth debating really. Constitutional guarantees are not ranked; one doesn't trump the other. Off you go.

:patriot:

Jake-Gallows

08-30-2007, 07:03

Originally posted by WIG19

Their decision to not permit open-carry is theirs (whether for decorum, or because they don't think your Level-Nothing holster can prevent a grab during the Christmas rush), is a private-property rights matter, and is not worth debating really. Constitutional guarantees are not ranked; one doesn't trump the other. Off you go.

:patriot:

I agree with you completely that anyone open carrying can be asked to leave private property at any time, and I think that if you do open carry, you do so with the knowledge that they can be asked to leave.
The problem here is that they are banning concealed carry. In Virginia, if they post a "no firearms" sign, then you can not carry concealed legally. And as I said...you can be sure that if the VA stores fall to this, expect other states to follow!

WIG19

08-30-2007, 07:22

(Yes, I know you shouldn't have to but)
Engage the store manager in civil discussion re the Corporate policy. Feel free to advise Bentonville if you have a collection of stores in the area doing that. Persist and you will get rid of the signs - they are not Walmart policy, any more than they are Cabela's or Gander Mountain's.* Righteous indignation garners little without action.

* (GM signs around here have been supportive of permit-holding CC & OC for sometime; the sign is just for check-in of firearms to be serviced. Ditto for Cabela's, who are looking into rewording their signs.)

:patriot:

CBDAVIS

08-30-2007, 08:20

Originally posted by Elmer Fudd
A lot of criticism of Wal-Mart is by people parroting what the press told them to think.

I used to work for a Wal-Mart supplier. They were a tough but fair customer.

From the few suppliers I know they believe the tough part, but most of them will disagree with you about the fair part.

I have clients that will not do work for them because they take too long to pay.

And I know others that went broke because they kept lowering their prices to keep Wal-Mart happy. Didn't work.

Wal-mart and ever other company and us as customers that buy stuff made overseas support slave labor--or, at least, close to it.

Jake-Gallows

08-30-2007, 08:52

I just spoke with somone at Wal-Mart HQ in Bentonville. I was told by them that the new Wal-Mart policy is to let the district super. decide what the firearms policy will be from store to store, in all states, and that is the ONLY corporate policy they had on this issue now.

Warp

08-30-2007, 08:57

Originally posted by ATW525
I also am a firm believer that if you choose to carry concealed, you should do your best to conceal it (as long as you're not breaking any laws), and if you're doing it right, nobody at Wal-Mart should know you're armed.

I am a firm believer that if you want to carry openly, and it is legal, then you can do so.

Open means open. :tongueout:

rvrctyrngr

08-30-2007, 09:00

.I just spoke with somone at Wal-Mart HQ in Bentonville. I was told by them that the new Wal-Mart policy is to let the district super. decide what the firearms policy will be from store to store, in all states, and that is the ONLY corporate policy they had on this issue now.

That ain't good.

But then, OC is illegal here, and signs carry no weight of law. If discovered (which is highly doubtful), all they can do is ask me to leave, which I will gladly do, after dropping whatever it is I intended to buy right in the middle of the aisle

Warp

08-30-2007, 09:01

Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
I just spoke with somone at Wal-Mart HQ in Bentonville. I was told by them that the new Wal-Mart policy is to let the district super. decide what the firearms policy will be from store to store, in all states, and that is the ONLY corporate policy they had on this issue now.

If any of mine become posted I will not go there.

Being in a state with many gun owners and many licensed carriers I wouldn't expect that to happen. However, being in an urban environment is a state where people are happy with the most off limits places of any shall issue state, maybe they will become posted...

Razoreye

08-30-2007, 09:04

Originally posted by lethal tupperwa
I feel that if you are not at a range or a Law Enforcement Officer in uniform open carry is well rude.

It may be a right but I don't feel that it is polite.

I am not impressed by a rent-a-wannabe.

"Some of the people" I have seen doing it (and I don't mean all) looked like their big skill was not drooling on themselves.

It is like a felon now having an interest in archery.

Or a convicted DUI taking up bicycle riding. The ignorance in this post is astounding.

It's posts like this that continue to show me why we will be like England in no time, like Zumbo you throw out one group to the wolves to save your hide a little longer. We need MORE allies in times like these, not less.

Razoreye

08-30-2007, 09:07

Originally posted by dmx11523
You shouldn't be shopping at Walmart anyways. This should be just another reason to shop elsewhere.

There is are high costs to those "low prices".

MADE IN CHINA it's the American way. Globalization is great. It's even better when card carrying reblublicans hate it, I thought they were pro-capitalist?? :animlol:

Jake-Gallows

08-30-2007, 09:13

Originally posted by Razoreye
The ignorance in this post is astounding.

It's posts like this that continue to show me why we will be like England in no time, like Zumbo you throw out one group to the wolves to save your hide a little longer. We need MORE allies in times like these, not less.

+1:agree: Perfectly said!

Cody Jarrett

08-30-2007, 09:47

I understand that they have every right to set this policy. But if forced to leave the gun in the car at Walmart I would just not go there. I think leaving the gun in the car is more dangerous.

I must say that those who want to "open carry" will always run the risk of scaring those that are ignorant to guns. Ignorant people make up a large part of the population and represent a revenue source for businesses like walmart. They would rather have the business of the common man.

This is not a constitutional issue. Although Walmart is considered by many to be a public place, it is owned by a private corporation. it may set rules that we may not agree with.

It's not just guns, it's also freedom of speech. You really don't have these rights. If you think you do then try this...

Go to Walmart. Buy something and then get up on your soap box and start speaking about your political views. management will ask you to stop. if you don't, security will ask you to leave. if you don't they'll call the police. If you don't leave you'll be arrested. When you get to your arraignment, keep running your mouth, exercising your right to free speech. You'll be found in contempt and fined. At trial keep exercising your freedom. you'll again be found in contempt and fined. If you still won't stop they will tape your mouth shut (as in the case of Larry Flynt).

lethal tupperwa

08-30-2007, 10:01

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Razoreye
[B]The ignorance in this post is astounding.

Forcing a negative response will get you a negative response

and remove the right you were trying to show that you had.

Warp

08-30-2007, 10:04

Originally posted by Cody Jarrett
I understand that they have every right to set this policy. But if forced to leave the gun in the car at Walmart I would just not go there. I think leaving the gun in the car is more dangerous.

I must say that those who want to "open carry" will always run the risk of scaring those that are ignorant to guns. Ignorant people make up a large part of the population and represent a revenue source for businesses like walmart. They would rather have the business of the common man.

This is not a constitutional issue. Although Walmart is considered by many to be a public place, it is owned by a private corporation. it may set rules that we may not agree with.

It's not just guns, it's also freedom of speech. You really don't have these rights. If you think you do then try this...

Go to Walmart. Buy something and then get up on your soap box and start speaking about your political views. management will ask you to stop. if you don't, security will ask you to leave. if you don't they'll call the police. If you don't leave you'll be arrested. When you get to your arraignment, keep running your mouth, exercising your right to free speech. You'll be found in contempt and fined. At trial keep exercising your freedom. you'll again be found in contempt and fined. If you still won't stop they will tape your mouth shut (as in the case of Larry Flynt).

Sure.

I don't think anybody ever claimed the 2A allowed them to openly carry in Walmart, so I am not sure what your point is.

If I were to shop at Walmart even though they had a no guns policy, I would just carry concealed. I certainly wouldn't disarm when I did not legally have to and leave the gun in the car.

WIG19

08-30-2007, 10:47

Originally posted by Cody Jarrett
I understand that they have every right to set this policy.

[interlude]

You really don't have these rights. If you think you do then try this...
Think long & hard about all the rights and what your expectations are, were positions reversed. Possibly someone in your yard, during your daughter's post-Communion party or other 'special' event, originally someone who had been invited, and they:

a. Shook your hand and wished you well for being such a good parent, OR
b. Stood their shuckin' & jivin' with the most loudly obnoxious music (you pick the genre) coming from their boombox, askin' where the keg is, OR
c. Started making overt & lewd advances toward your daughter.

Is there a circumstance above wherein you'd feel the need to exercise any rights as a property owner?

Cliches are what they are because they're usually true, so here's one. "Your right to swing your arms stops at my nose."

:patriot:

Jake-Gallows

08-30-2007, 11:00

Originally posted by Warp
Sure.

I don't think anybody ever claimed the 2A allowed them to openly carry in Walmart, so I am not sure what your point is.

If I were to shop at Walmart even though they had a no guns policy, I would just carry concealed. I certainly wouldn't disarm when I did not legally have to and leave the gun in the car.

In Virginia..where this is happening, if they signs are posted, you can not legally carry concealed even if you have a permit

Warp

08-30-2007, 11:17

Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
In Virginia..where this is happening, if they signs are posted, you can not legally carry concealed even if you have a permit

Then I would like to think they would not do it due to lost business, but they probably wouldn't lose enough to notice.

A significant portion of the population of VA does not have a permit. I am sure quite a few of permit holders don't carry regularly, quite a few more don't mind having to disarm for a short time.

Good luck with keeping them from posting.

mike253

08-30-2007, 11:31

Originally posted by Warp
A significant portion of the population of VA does not have a permit.

Just to stir the pot...

What is your source for this statement of fact?

That is irrelevant to the conversation at hand anyway, even if were an absolute fact.

Statistically speaking, perhaps it's true that less than half of the poplulation of the state have a permit. What that doesn't take into consideration is the # of people who are under 21 (unable to get a permit) and the fact that those who aren't of legal age to carry lack the purchasing power of those over 21.

Also, what % of the population of the counties affected have carry permits? (I'd imagine it's a fair bit higher down that way, as they aren't quite as "cityfied").

Either way, if my local Wal-Mart posts, I won't shop there anymore. I've seen the trash that rolls out of there at all hours of the day and night.

Warp

08-30-2007, 11:34

Originally posted by mike253

Statistically speaking, perhaps it's true that less than half of the poplulation of the state have a permit.

WAY, WAY less than half.

http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2004/12/percentage-of-adults-with-carry.html

After crunching through the 2000 Census and 2003 Census estimates, the numbers in Chris Bird's Fourth Edition "The Concealed Handgun Manual", some official sources online which are a little more current, and filling in a few gaps from a 1998 CCRKBA report, the winners are:

Percent of Adults with a License to Carry in each Shall Issue State

7.45% South Dakota
6.79% Indiana
6.76% Pennsylvania
5.23% Connecticut
5.12% Washington
4.34% Idaho
4.10% Utah
3.86% Oregon
3.45% Tennessee
3.15% Alabama
2.72% Florida
2.71% Kentucky
2.67% Wyoming
2.41% Maine
2.18% Arkansas
2.11% Virginia
1.94% West Virginia
1.76% Arizona
1.75% Oklahoma
1.70% Montana
1.70% Michigan
1.62% Texas
1.39% South Carolina
1.34% North Dakota
1.00% North Carolina
0.86% Mississippi
0.62% Louisiana
0.58% Nevada
0.45% Minnesota
0.36% Missouri
0.33% Ohio
0.20% Colorado
0.17% New Mexico

The above info should be pretty accurate. Total population, <2% permitted to carry.

Jake-Gallows

08-30-2007, 11:49

Originally posted by Warp
WAY, WAY less than half.

http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2004/12/percentage-of-adults-with-carry.html

After crunching through the 2000 Census and 2003 Census estimates, the numbers in Chris Bird's Fourth Edition "The Concealed Handgun Manual", some official sources online which are a little more current, and filling in a few gaps from a 1998 CCRKBA report, the winners are:

Percent of Adults with a License to Carry in each Shall Issue State

7.45% South Dakota
6.79% Indiana
6.76% Pennsylvania
5.23% Connecticut
5.12% Washington
4.34% Idaho
4.10% Utah
3.86% Oregon
3.45% Tennessee
3.15% Alabama
2.72% Florida
2.71% Kentucky
2.67% Wyoming
2.41% Maine
2.18% Arkansas
2.11% Virginia
1.94% West Virginia
1.76% Arizona
1.75% Oklahoma
1.70% Montana
1.70% Michigan
1.62% Texas
1.39% South Carolina
1.34% North Dakota
1.00% North Carolina
0.86% Mississippi
0.62% Louisiana
0.58% Nevada
0.45% Minnesota
0.36% Missouri
0.33% Ohio
0.20% Colorado
0.17% New Mexico

The above info should be pretty accurate. Total population, <2% permitted to carry.

You are probably right. But around here it has lots to do with where you live. I would bet that people in this part of VA have more permits per capita than say in nothern VA.
alomst everyon i bump into around here has a permit

CowboyKen

08-30-2007, 11:57

Warp,

You show Nevada at 0.58%. The population of Nevada is about 2,500,000 people. There are about 50,000 permits issued. I make that about 2.0%. That is a big difference. Any thoughts?

Ken

Warp

08-30-2007, 12:02

Originally posted by CowboyKen
Warp,

You show Nevada at 0.58%. The population of Nevada is about 2,500,000 people. There are about 50,000 permits issued. I make that about 2.0%. That is a big difference. Any thoughts?

Ken

What is your source for the 50,000 permits issued?

How long has Nevada been shall issue?

This data is from 2003. It will no longer be exact (or as "exact" as it was at the time) but is a pretty good indicator of approximately where various states fall. (also not some states, such as GA, are not there due to counties issuing permits and not the state)

Jake-Gallows

08-30-2007, 12:47

Originally posted by Warp
What is your source for the 50,000 permits issued?

How long has Nevada been shall issue?

This data is from 2003. It will no longer be exact (or as "exact" as it was at the time) but is a pretty good indicator of approximately where various states fall. (also not some states, such as GA, are not there due to counties issuing permits and not the state)

If those stats are almost 4 years old, I wouldn't really bank on them now. I know that in the last two to three years the number of CCW students I have has really almost doubled, and since the Tech shootings they have just went through the roof. I would really like to see something more recent than that.

Warp

08-30-2007, 13:08

Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
If those stats are almost 4 years old, I wouldn't really bank on them now. I know that in the last two to three years the number of CCW students I have has really almost doubled, and since the Tech shootings they have just went through the roof. I would really like to see something more recent than that.

I don't know of anything more recent.

I am sure that in 3-4 years the numbers won't change THAT much. I am sure it is going up in virtually every (if not every) shall issue state and, even though the numbers will still be quite low, there are several states that went to shall issue since 2003.

I'd wager money that VA is still <3% of adults.

CowboyKen

08-30-2007, 13:12

My source is Frank Adams Executive Director of Nevada Sheriffs' & Chiefs' Association at a meeting I attended in July. He also said about half of them were issued by Clark County. The Population is from the U. S. Census estimate for 2006 which I found by Googleing "population of Nevada."

Neveda is Shall issue since 1995.

What was your point in asking my source? Maybe I can help you.

Ken

Warp

08-30-2007, 13:14

Originally posted by CowboyKen
My source is Frank Adams Executive Director of Nevada Sheriffs' & Chiefs' Association at a meeting I attended in July. He also said about half of them were issued by Clark County. The Population is from the U. S. Census estimate for 2006 which I found by Googleing "population of Nevada."

Neveda is Shall issue since 1995.

What was your point in asking my source? Maybe I can help you.

Ken

There is no helping me. I'm just a guy quoting what I found online. Ken Grub's numbers.

That sure is a big change since 2003. Interesting...

Good for Nevada! :thumbsup:

CowboyKen

08-30-2007, 13:25

Warp,

I didn't mean to question the authenticity of your numbers. I was just stunned by seeing such a small percentage and tried to do the math. With the aggregate numbers being so small in Nevada it would not take a lot to shift the percentage a bit.

All of these percentages are, from my point of view, horrifiyingly low. If this is correct, essentially no one carrys (statistically).

Ken

Warp

08-30-2007, 13:28

Originally posted by CowboyKen
Warp,

I didn't mean to question the authenticity of your numbers. I was just stunned by seeing such a small percentage and tried to do the math. With the aggregate numbers being so small in Nevada it would not take a lot to shift the percentage a bit.

All of these percentages are, from my point of view, horrifiyingly low. If this is correct, essentially no one carrys (statistically).

Ken

It is quite low.

Numbers from John Lott's books tell the same basic story.

Not that many people are licensed to carry. That is one reason why the passage of shall issue laws does not have a drastic effect on the crime rate. Not a ton of people are licensed.

And of the ones that are licensed, not all of them even carry the gun on their person very often.

bhart89

08-30-2007, 13:38

What we should be focusing on is changing the law so that they can't kick you out of the store based on "Race, Religion, or for excersising any other constitutional right"

mike253

08-30-2007, 13:43

As stated by me and others, the total state population permitted to carry vs. the total population of the counties affected by the new policy is incredibly likely to be exponentially different (for example: 2% of the entire state, but 20% of the population of the counties affected).

Either way, Virginia is a VERY gun friendly state. Wal-Mart will quickly ditch the policy if they even get it in place to begin with.

I'd bet dollars to dog**** that a policy of that nature would never be implemented by my local Wal-Mart.

About 4 years ago, 3 teenage kids driving a stolen truck and carrying stolen firearms (I believe from one of the punks grandparents) went to my local Wal-Mart late at night, followed a girl to her car and attempted to kidnap her at gunpoint. A citizen with a CHP intervened and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived. One or more of them later admitted that they planned to rape her once she was kidnapped. I can only assume that they would not have released her afterwards. Everyone (including the local police) praised that guy to the heavens and back. Wal-Mart knows a tragedy was averted, but more importantly (to Wal-Mart) they know that a MASSIVE lawsuit was avoided.

Warp

08-30-2007, 13:48

Originally posted by mike253
As stated by me and others, the total state population permitted to carry vs. the total population of the counties affected by the new policy is incredibly likely to be exponentially different (for example: 2% of the entire state, but 20% of the population of the counties affected).

How do you figure that?

You think 20% of your county is licensed to carry, carries regularly and is unwilling to/unhappy about disarming to go to Walmart?

Razoreye

08-30-2007, 13:54

Originally posted by lethal tupperwa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Razoreye
[B]The ignorance in this post is astounding.

Forcing a negative response will get you a negative response

and remove the right you were trying to show that you had. No one is forcing anything. If I were in fact forcing cops to be called then I would have had some called on my by now in the few times I carried in the 2nd largest city of KY, 64th largest in the nation. So you're logic is off base.

ScottSt

08-30-2007, 14:01

Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
In Virginia..where this is happening, if they signs are posted, you can not legally carry concealed even if you have a permit Are you saying that signage carries weight in VA with respect to concealed carry, because it doesn't, i.e. "signed" locations are not among the "prohibited places" as they are in some other states. At worst, you can be asked to leave, and if you refuse, you can be cited for tresspass.

Riz58

08-30-2007, 14:32

Which brings us back to my earlier point: Urge the district manager to continue to allowed concealed carry. His concern is customer reaction to open carry - very well - banning concealed carry does not further that goal. Plus allowing CCW while prohibiting open carry is consistent with Wal-Mart long time policy. The NM example and the teenage girl in the parking lot example should be pluses in the CCW column. Boycott threats would probably not work. Losing 2 to 5% of his customer base is nothing compared to the 40- 50% of soccer moms who might freak at open carry - it would be an easy business decision.

Be friendly, give him a business-friendly solution, and he may leave well-enough alone.

RussP

08-30-2007, 14:33

Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
In Virginia..where this is happening, if they signs are posted, you can not legally carry concealed even if you have a permit If a property has a sign up stating their policy prohibiting firearms, and you are caught violating that policy, and the business asks you to leave and you do, you are legal.

If you refuse to leave once asked, then you are illegally carrying.

Jake-Gallows

08-30-2007, 17:42

Originally posted by ScottSt
Are you saying that signage carries weight in VA with respect to concealed carry, because it doesn't, i.e. "signed" locations are not among the "prohibited places" as they are in some other states. At worst, you can be asked to leave, and if you refuse, you can be cited for tresspass.

You are right, but that is not the point, nor is it the point of the thread to start with.

Dinho

08-30-2007, 18:16

Originally posted by Riz58
Which brings us back to my earlier point: Urge the district manager to continue to allowed concealed carry. His concern is customer reaction to open carry - very well - banning concealed carry does not further that goal. Plus allowing CCW while prohibiting open carry is consistent with Wal-Mart long time policy. The NM example and the teenage girl in the parking lot example should be pluses in the CCW column. Boycott threats would probably not work. Losing 2 to 5% of his customer base is nothing compared to the 40- 50% of soccer moms who might freak at open carry - it would be an easy business decision.

Be friendly, give him a business-friendly solution, and he may leave well-enough alone.

are you sure that the 40-50% soccer moms would stop shopping at wal mart because they saw a citizen with a gun? they might be scared but i bet they still shop there. they have to buy groceries somewhere, and if everywhere they go they see people OC'ing, they might get used to it and get over it.

i guess it could go the other way and EVERYONE bans CCW. but that could raise a lot of ruckus. hopefully... we need to band together.

Riz58

08-30-2007, 21:31

Yeah, they might get over open carry if they saw it more often, but the District Manager is not going to put up with the headaches, and the possible loss of business, so that the less than 1% of the population that open carries can wander around his store. I would not. He has enough headaches, and if he can easily solve this one, he will.

Russ, did we not once have a sticky here about when to open carry and when not to? It seems to have been taken down, but it had an excellent discussion upon that point.

Warp

08-30-2007, 21:33

Originally posted by Riz58
Yeah, they might get over open carry if they saw it more often, but the District Manager is not going to put up with the headaches, and the possible loss of business, so that the less than 1% of the population that open carries can wander around his store. I would not. He has enough headaches, and if he can easily solve this one, he will.

Russ, did we not once have a sticky here about when to open carry and when not to? It seems to have been taken down, but it had an excellent discussion upon that point.

We once ahd multiple very valuable stickies that have dissappeared.

Flying with firearms.
Newbie guide to selecting carry rig.
RussP's FAQs, etc.

Glockphobia

08-31-2007, 04:32

hey wal-mart! and anybody else thats against CCW, i've got news for ya! VA-Tech doesnt allow CCW and guess what, Cho was packing and killed 30 people! thats where physcos go, to places they KNOW they can do damage with minamal resistance, another ex-Colombine High.when is the last time you heard of somebody walking into a gunshop and pull something like that off?:thumbsup:

bruce282

08-31-2007, 07:28

Originally posted by Warp
I don't know of anything more recent.

I am sure that in 3-4 years the numbers won't change THAT much. I am sure it is going up in virtually every (if not every) shall issue state and, even though the numbers will still be quite low, there are several states that went to shall issue since 2003.

I'd wager money that VA is still <3% of adults.

2006 VA Population (estimate)
7642884
minus the 25% that were <18
5732163
minus 5% for the 18-almost 21 group (estimate)
544555485
When the Roanoke Time published the list of permit holders there were around 139000 permits.
So 2.5% of the adult population in VA have a permit. Not taken into account are folks not allowed to either own a gun, or to obtain a carry permit, nor changes in the population or number of permits, as that information is no longer available via the FOIA (thank God).

Bruce

Warp

08-31-2007, 07:38

Originally posted by bruce282
2006 VA Population (estimate)
7642884
minus the 25% that were <18
5732163
minus 5% for the 18-almost 21 group (estimate)
544555485
When the Roanoke Time published the list of permit holders there were around 139000 permits.
So 2.5% of the adult population in VA have a permit. Not taken into account are folks not allowed to either own a gun, or to obtain a carry permit, nor changes in the population or number of permits, as that information is no longer available via the FOIA (thank God).

Bruce

2.5%?

That's around about what I would have gussed.

Hopefully it will continue to rise. Nationwide.

Cody Jarrett

08-31-2007, 09:48

Originally posted by WIG19
Think long & hard about all the rights and what your expectations are, were positions reversed. Possibly someone in your yard, during your daughter's post-Communion party or other 'special' event, originally someone who had been invited, and they:

a. Shook your hand and wished you well for being such a good parent, OR
b. Stood their shuckin' & jivin' with the most loudly obnoxious music (you pick the genre) coming from their boombox, askin' where the keg is, OR
c. Started making overt & lewd advances toward your daughter.

Is there a circumstance above wherein you'd feel the need to exercise any rights as a property owner?

Cliches are what they are because they're usually true, so here's one. "Your right to swing your arms stops at my nose."
At my home? If you show up to the party with a blasting with a boom box I confiscate it. If you make overtures to my young daughter I throw you out. If you resist chances are you'll get hurt and I'll also file a complaint for criminal trespass. If, in the event of your discourse, you cause damage or injury you'll be sued in a civil action. I've had enough crime against my family. No quarter would be shown.

ScottSt

08-31-2007, 10:29

Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
You are right, but that is not the point, nor is it the point of the thread to start with.

Umm...then why did you say this?
Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
In Virginia..where this is happening, if they signs are posted, you can not legally carry concealed even if you have a permit.

Apps4Me

08-31-2007, 10:53

sorry I came to this thread late...

check back later this evening, I'll have email and phone numbers for the entire management chain in SW Virginia.

Jake-Gallows

08-31-2007, 14:13

Originally posted by ScottSt
Umm...then why did you say this?

It's called a reply.

And as I said before. The point is not the semantics of a permit. The point is that we need a voice to stop stores from wanting to ban guns. That is the point

lethal tupperwa

09-01-2007, 07:04

Originally posted by Razoreye
No one is forcing anything. If I were in fact forcing cops to be called then I would have had some called on my by now in the few times I carried in the 2nd largest city of KY, 64th largest in the nation. So you're logic is off base.

When YOU scare a soccer mom YOU are committing disorderly conduct!

The cops will take YOU before a magistrate.

YOU will have to post a HIGH Peace Bond.

It will get very expensive very quickly.

IF YOU scare another soccer mom YOU WILL FORFIT YOUR bond.

This has been done to OPEN Carry Persons in the past in Virginia.

It is up to you push the issue you can pay the Judge.

Razoreye

09-01-2007, 07:16

SouthpawShootr

09-01-2007, 08:45

I've never been in a Wal-mart where I felt safe. A few people that I know have had their purses stolen in a local Wal-mart. Several people have been attacked in the parking lot at night. All this occurring with a uniformed, off-duty LEO in the store. I don't shop at Wal-mart unless I absolutely can't avoid it, but if I'm in one of their stores, I have a gun on me. I don't give a damn if Wal-mart allows it or not. Unless I'm mistaken, in Virginia, posting doesn't make it illegal. There's a list of prohibited places and Wal-mart ain't on it. The worst they can do is prosecute you for tresspass. Most times, they'll just ask you to leave. If you make a scene, they'll get you for tresspass, then maybe ban you from the store. I never open carry, BTW. In my view it makes me a target if the store gets robbed (which I will do absolutely nothing to stop, unless they start killing people).

Warp

09-01-2007, 09:42

EAJuggalo

09-01-2007, 09:54

Lethal, have you got some case law to back this up. I've never heard of it and would love to see what the evidence produced was that convinced the Jury.

Dean

09-01-2007, 10:05

I have always wondered HOW a store could ban a lawfully carried concealed handgun, short of metal detectors?

If the store manager doesn't see it, how would he know to ask you to leave the store because of it?

It's concealed. You can't see it.

Wouldn't it be the case that all a license holder would have to do would be to actually conceal his weapons (carry the G26 IWB instead of the G21 OWB that day), as opposed to simply covering the OWB G21 with a shooters garment or Hawaiian shirt like usual? Would the store have to ask him to leave the store property, before any charges could be considered since we're discussing a legally carried firearm under the state law?

They'll be able to stop the open carry guys with this policy I think.

I also think the criminals who frequent Wal - Mart property might ignore the weapons ban. Of course they conceal very well since they're facing 10 years in prison as felons in posession of a firearm, so how will the store catch them?

Jake-Gallows

09-01-2007, 11:15

Originally posted by lethal tupperwa
When YOU scare a soccer mom YOU are committing disorderly conduct!

The cops will take YOU before a magistrate.

YOU will have to post a HIGH Peace Bond.

It will get very expensive very quickly.

IF YOU scare another soccer mom YOU WILL FORFIT YOUR bond.

This has been done to OPEN Carry Persons in the past in Virginia.

It is up to you push the issue you can pay the Judge.

Show me where this has happened for disorderly conduct since the laws have changed.

Also, if you have no criminal record, have a steady job, ties to the community, and your charge was not a violent one, you are normally released on a personal recognizance bond and it would not cost you a penny.
If you are arrested again for the same charge, you will probably just be bonded out again. The magistrate does not revoke your bond, that comes from the Commonwealth Attorney. Unless it is brought to their attention, they do not know.

I don't know where you got this information from, but it is flawed.

Riz58

09-01-2007, 14:15

Originally posted by Dean
I have always wondered HOW a store could ban a lawfully carried concealed handgun, short of metal detectors?

Don't confuse banning with enforcing. It is illegal to rob someone -people do it anyway - meaning enforcement is the issue. The fact that an act can be completed without detection does not make it legal.

lethal tupperwa

09-01-2007, 17:39

I have been retired for a while,

I did see on the TV this week that even if you are an elected representative of the people you can be charged with it.

I don't remember anything about whether he was carrying "open" or not.:shocked:

PhoneCop

09-01-2007, 19:22

Originally posted by Tito
I wonder if the legal department saw the video of the woman who's life was saved in Walmart by the citizen with the CCW?

BIG +1!!!

Jake-Gallows

09-02-2007, 08:14

This particular Wal-Mart had an employee shot and killed by her ex-boyfriend. He just walked in, grabbed her by the hair and shot her in the head. There was a restraining order in place, and he wasn't supposed to own a firearm because of the restraining order as well as his criminal past.
Instead of them seeing that signs will not stop people who are there to do bad things, they use it as a reason to ban all firearms, well that an the Tech shootings that they keep bringing up

SouthpawShootr

09-02-2007, 08:36

Unfortunately, there are still alot of people on this planet that are convinced that criminals will obey laws or rules that carry little or no real penalty compared to the crime their committing now. Does anybody think that somebody with a felony record who is intent on robbery or committing murder is going to give one second's thought to the trouble they'll be in if they are caught with a handgun? Or some abusive husband who has decided that his wife had gone too far with a restraining order going to give a second thought to the trouble he could be in for disregarding those "no guns" signs on the front door? The people who do are living in fantasyland. I remember a case a while back where some guy killed his wife......at a Sam's club IIRC. She was getting set to divorce his ass and just walked up to her (outside I believe) and killed her.

Va Tech has strengthened the language in their weapon policy. Big freaking deal. If somebody has gone over the edge and decided to kill a bunch of students, are they going to hesitate b/c the school could expel them and/or press criminal trespass charges? All that insures is that students who legally own and carry handguns are either going to leave them at home or in the car where they will do no good at all. For supposedly educated people they're incredibly naive.

Warp

09-02-2007, 10:03

Originally posted by Jake-Gallows
This particular Wal-Mart had an employee shot and killed by her ex-boyfriend. He just walked in, grabbed her by the hair and shot her in the head. There was a restraining order in place, and he wasn't supposed to own a firearm because of the restraining order as well as his criminal past.
Instead of them seeing that signs will not stop people who are there to do bad things, they use it as a reason to ban all firearms, well that an the Tech shootings that they keep bringing up

A restraining order prevents legal ownership of a firearm???

Truckee

09-02-2007, 12:56

oops, double tapped

Truckee

09-02-2007, 13:02

Originally posted by Warp
A restraining order prevents legal ownership of a firearm???

Warp, you're splitting hairs with Jake's choice of type.

In Ole Virginny, a restraining order prevents one from possessing, and/or having access to, a firearm or other dangerous weapon. If applicable, one's CHP will be revoked. Generally the 'restrained one's' home is not searched, of course. Although, I have heard of instances where LE confiscated weapons found when serving the order.

However, if for some reason LE has contact with this subject and finds a firearm (or ODW) while the subject is under the order, the weapon(s) will be confiscated and an arrest made... and this is regardless of circumstance and/or 'who' may literally own/possess the weapon, if the 'restrained one' has reasonable access to it.

Now Apps4Me, where is that contact info for Wally's regional hierarchy? If you're getting stalled, I can obtain the info.

Warp

09-02-2007, 13:09

Originally posted by Truckee
Warp, you're splitting hairs with Jake's choice of type.

How is that splitting hairs?

Whether or not one is legally able to possess a gun seems pretty signficant to me...

And it makes me wonder: If a legal gun owner becomes the subject of a restraining order, what are they supposed to do with their guns, as far as the law is concerned?

Jake-Gallows

09-02-2007, 14:09

Truckee

09-02-2007, 15:39

Originally posted by Warp
How is that splitting hairs?

Whether or not one is legally able to possess a gun seems pretty signficant to me...

And it makes me wonder: If a legal gun owner becomes the subject of a restraining order, what are they supposed to do with their guns, as far as the law is concerned?

Warp,

Jake has it right.

I had typed a detailed reply to your post. But in typical *$(#*&%! fashion, my machine puked and all was lost.

So, to paraphrase (since I don't hold the fortitude of repeated effort):

If one is the subject of a restraining order, then basically the VA. Statute(s) treat them as a convicted felon. They may not be in possession of, the proximity of, or have reasonable access to a firearm and/or ODW... regardless of their circumstances, and period.

"Ownership" of said prohibited items is not regulated at this juncture (within provision of other standing statutes).

I have seen 'owners,' post being served with a PO, relinquish control of their arms to family, friends or trusted associates. If one does not segregate from all prohibited weaponry during an active order, and then is found in possession of, and/or having reasonable access to (including having weapons within their domicile and/or control areas), they will be immediately arrested and all weapons subject to statute seized.

I know of associates, LEOs, whom have been served by a spouse with a PO. There is no exemption and they have been treated as anyone else. Their service weapons were surrendered, and in most cases I've seen, they're placed on administrative suspension.

Jake-Gallows

09-03-2007, 13:55

Anyone found the info for the management chain?

W.E.G.

09-03-2007, 14:13

Originally posted by Truckee

In Ole Virginny, a restraining order prevents one from possessing, and/or having access to, a firearm or other dangerous weapon.

That's all 50 states.

Not just VA.

See 18 U.S.C.§ 922(g)(8)

http://www.vpc.org/press/0110emer.htm

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

Fiery Red XIII

09-03-2007, 14:34

Originally posted by W.E.G.
That's all 50 states.

Not just VA.

See 18 U.S.C.§ 922(g)(8)

http://www.vpc.org/press/0110emer.htm

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

Thanks Bill!

Red

Truckee

09-03-2007, 19:07

W.E.G.,

I know this... but around these GT parts, one can get quickly gigged for speaking about things beyond one's fingertips. Thus, I opted to comment concerning issues at my disposal.

Thanks,
Truck

Originally posted by W.E.G.
That's all 50 states.

Not just VA.

See 18 U.S.C.§ 922(g)(8)

http://www.vpc.org/press/0110emer.htm

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

W.E.G.

09-04-2007, 19:41

back on topic (hopefully)

-----Original Message-----
From: VCDL President
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 9:10 PM
Subject: VA-ALERT: Wal-Mart

A note on Wal-Mart: I am hoping to have a definitive answer shortly
on their actual policy on guns. It is our belief that the local
managers are completely wrong in thinking that they have the
authority to ban guns at the stores they manage.

I am planning on getting the real story and will let everyone know as
soon as I have the information so we can put this issue to bed.

-------------------------------------------
***************************************************************************
VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
(VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org
***************************************************************************

W.E.G.

10-03-2007, 20:35

Have any signs appeared yet at the soutwest Virginia stores?

Kegster

10-03-2007, 21:23

WM only cares about making more money. The do not care about you.

They are willing to gamble with your life, in that the odds of something happening and a CCWer saving the day is slim.

Then they feel that the customers (sheeple)they lose would be greater than those lost which are CCWers. Then they also probably beleive that those CCW customers that were lost will eventually be back shopping in the store even though they can't carry.

If WM did that here in TX I would not patronize them anymore.
I would not ever go back.

In TX you NEED a gun to enter and exit WM. :2gun:

Warp

10-03-2007, 21:29

Originally posted by Kegster

In TX you NEED a gun to enter and exit WM. :2gun:

But how does anybody know when open carry is illegal?

jdeere_man

10-03-2007, 21:30

ohh geez not this thread again with people spreading rumors.

Jake-Gallows

11-22-2007, 21:32

ohh geez not this thread again with people spreading rumors.

Are you talking about my first post in this thread as being a rumor? Talking to someone on the phone, and in person and relaying that information is not a rumor. If I had said I heard it from someone who heard it from their cousin, who heard it from a friend, etc, etc....Then, it is a rumor. What I relayed was fact from conversations.
IF you were talking about my post, then you should step back, maybe learn exactly what a rumor is, then come back and admit that what you said was pretty lame, and just something to try to start some needless crap

kgain673

11-22-2007, 21:55

I would like to chime in, I also think open carry is rude, unless you live in Texas. But hey, manners are not laws and we do not have to make everyone happy when we step out our door. to each his own.

Sarge45

11-22-2007, 21:58

kgain673

11-22-2007, 22:13

Open carry isn't rude, it's just alarming to the sheep and soccer mom's. I'm not offended by open carry but considering only a small minority of people carry anyway, we are out voted dollar-wise. The majority, with the most $$$ to be had, drive policy.

Manners are a subjective issue, many people in various parts of the world believe it's rude to kiss your wife in public, it would be disrespectful to her womanhood. I work with many students who believe it's not rude to sag their jeans to show their underpants, now do you think that's rude? I do. But if some 16 year old kid wants to show his A##, now who are we to say otherwise?

smoke

11-22-2007, 22:29

jdeere_man

11-22-2007, 22:41

One of these days you OC guys are gonna learn that you're not helping the cause by insisting on OC. It does nothing but cause hysteria amongst the sheeple and gets carry banned for everyone, just becuase you guys seem to be on some ego trip.

That's funny I OC'd the other day and nobody got hysterical.

I don't usually OC. It's actually a matter of convenience when I do.

I don't think that excersising a right should get people so worked up.

smoke

11-22-2007, 23:10

That's funny I OC'd the other day and nobody got hysterical.

I don't usually OC. It's actually a matter of convenience when I do.

I don't think that excersising a right should get people so worked up.

It shouldn't, but it does. When I lived in NC, it was legal to OC. I never did it because you could be charged with going "armed in terror of the public". All it took was a complaint, IIRC.

OC may be a right in some places and may be more convenient, but it causes more problems than it's worth, IMO. Concealed is not that hard to achieve and doesn't create a stir.