View Full Version : OK: Concealed-carry case: Shooter must surrender gun, serve 30 days
HerrGlock
09-01-2007, 03:09
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070901_1_A13_spanc05761
Concealed-carry case: Shooter must surrender gun, serve 30 days
By BILL BRAUN World Staff Writer
9/1/2007
A man who was licensed to carry a concealed weapon received a 30-day jail term Friday on a misdemeanor charge related to a Tulsa shooting.
Phillip Wayne Stephenson, 31, pleaded no contest Tuesday to recklessly handling a firearm.
Police reported that he wounded Stephen Hackler after a physical altercation April 27 in the vicinity of 18th Street and Boston Avenue.
The dispute developed after Stephenson was driving with his wife and a pedestrian -- not Hackler -- obstructed his path, police reported.
In court Tuesday, Hackler said he was in a parking lot and grabbed Stephenson after Stephenson pulled a gun.
Stephenson "had no reason to shoot me," Hackler said.
Police reported that a bullet passed through the upper part of Hackler's torso.
Stephenson said he got a pistol out of his car "because I felt threatened" by Hackler, who he said had grabbed him around the throat.
Stephenson said that "the gun went off as we were struggling," but Hackler asserted that Stephenson "meant to shoot me."
Tulsa County Special Judge Millie Otey ordered Stephenson to forfeit the gun and his concealed-weapon permit.
After he completes a jail stay that started Friday, he must complete an anger management program.
He also must pay restitution to cover Hackler's medical expenses, the judge said.
The case against Stephenson could be dismissed without a conviction at a future review, Otey said.
Bill Braun 581-8455
bill.braun@tulsaworld.com
(Comments block at the bottom of the page)
passive101
09-01-2007, 03:30
I don't have any legal advice, but the system just made a law abiding citizen into a future criminal. People learn from what happened and now he can't have a legal permit or even possibly a gun. So now he'll get an illegal gun and carry it illegally with no reason to follow firearm laws anymore.
Sad country we live in.
Glock20-10
09-01-2007, 04:01
I would probably feel very threatend if someone were to come up to me and grab my neck. Very sad that this judge ruled this way. I am sick of our judicial system forever punishing the victims and letting the criminals off with a slap on the hand.
steve028
09-01-2007, 06:52
I deffinatly do not agree with the judge's ruling but this is a very good reason to carry some fox labs spray for a non lethal alternative.
Caver 60
09-01-2007, 09:01
I don't understand what went on here. There's not enough information in the article for me to make a judgment.
The article says:
"The dispute developed after Stephenson was driving with his wife and a pedestrian -- not Hackler -- obstructed his path, police reported.
In court Tuesday, Hackler said he was in a parking lot and grabbed Stephenson after Stephenson pulled a gun."
Why did Hackler get involved in the apparent pedestrian/car incident?
What was Stephenson's reaction to that incident that perhaps caused Hackler to intervene???
Also:
"Stephenson said that "the gun went off as we were struggling," but Hackler asserted that Stephenson "meant to shoot me."
Wish the article had more details. Weren't there any other witnesses?
Perhaps Stephenson got what he deserved??? Oh well.
Darkangel1846
09-01-2007, 09:13
Sounds to weird to me, also not enough information. Bet it gets over turned in court.
Cody Jarrett
09-01-2007, 09:14
We don't know the whole story for sure but it sounds like he pulled the gun without facing a dealy threat. I was reading Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" last night and remember him saying that a fist fight is not grounds to use a gun. A punch, slap, shove or a common fistfight does not warrant the use of deadly force. he goes on to say that if you use the gun in these situations you may be prosecuted. Well, I guess he's right.
However, there are so many things that need to be looked at before any of us can pass judgement. Who was the initial aggressor? Did either party try to retreat? Was there a large disparity between the size, capabilities and ages of the combatants. Did either party continue to pursue the other (If you pursue someone after the initial confrontation has ended and your opponent retreats you have now become the agressor).
This is a sad case.
Hell yeah Ayoob's right. There are cases like that all over the US of officers or citizens using force courts later determine was unneccesary.
Of course, you can be crippled or killed in a "fist fight."
I think the key is to do everything possible to keep it from being a "mutual combat" situation. I guess the gentleman in the story should never have gotten out of his car. If he was really attacked as he seems to have maintained in court, perhaps a Taser or O.C. spray would have been more apropriate initial weapons choices.
in law enforcement, Tasers are widely used as a sort of "new and better pepper spray."
Personally I drive away at the slightest cause for alarm. Why? Because leaving my defenseless car for cowardly criminals to destroy doesn't seem the smartest part of valor to me. I would never "Get out of the car" to argue with a stranger who had not committed a crime yet.
:drillsgt:
Judge Millie Otey:
http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/Images/Judges/Otey_Millie.jpg
Looks like another 'soccer mom' who hates big, bad evil guns.
Although, with her shirt unbuttoned like that, I'd hit it.
Link to the page she's on HERE (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/Images/Judges/Otey_Millie.jpg&imgrefurl=http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/CODE/ASP/Criminal_Division_2.asp&h=146&w=125&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=WbNbgaOKwnFgyM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJudge%2BMillie%2BOtey%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)
Hmmmm, INTERESTING...Judge Millie Otey punishes people MORE for trying to defend themselves than she does for killing someone...
Apparently, this same judge lets a woman off, with just under 3 years of PROBATION for PLEADING GUILTY to Negligent Homicide. (I thought there were MANDATORY sentencing guidelines for a 'guilty' plea, none of which included probation)
STORY HERE (http://www.ama-cycle.org/news/2003/kindness.asp)
Driver sentenced to "acts of kindness" for killing motorcyclist
Feb. 14 � An Oklahoma woman who plowed her SUV into the back of a motorcycle and killed its rider has been ordered to perform "acts of kindness" for 30 months.
In one of the strangest sentences we've heard of for killing a motorcyclist, Tulsa County Special Judge Millie Otey on February 3 sentenced Deana Barnes, 33, to 30-months probation. During that probationary period, the judge will review the case three times to see whether Barnes is "performing acts of kindness or generosity."
If Barnes abides by the requirements of the probation, her record could be wiped clean.
Barnes had pleaded guilty to negligent homicide.
On July 9, Barnes was driving her Ford Expedition at 7 a.m. in Tulsa when she hit motorcyclist Larry Pittman, 34, of Skiatook, Oklahoma, from behind, police said. He died from injuries suffered in the crash.
Pittman was slowing to make a right turn when Barnes hit him. Pittman was thrown from the bike, and then Barnes ran over him, police said.
Explaining the accident, Barnes' lawyer told the Tulsa World newspaper that his client "didn't see him."
Sean Maher, AMA state affairs director, called the sentence "outrageous."
"This is just another example of why we need more consistent sentencing laws around the nation for motorists who kill motorcyclists," Maher said. "There have been successes in some states, but we need motorcyclists to work with us in more statehouses to get new laws passed."
Because of inconsistencies in sentencing around the nation, the AMA has a program called "Motorcyclists Matter" aimed at getting states to pass laws requiring mandatory minimum penalties when a car driver seriously injures, or kills, a motorcyclist, bicyclist, or other vulnerable road user.
WHAT A JOKE THIS JUDGE IS.
Still, I'd hit it. After all, it's my civic duty.
mitchshrader
09-01-2007, 13:57
CNS vs COM.
bigdaddycool
09-01-2007, 17:09
the guy jump out of his car with a gun because there was a crowd of people in the street that didn't move out of his way fast enough. this area of tulsa has a number of night clubs and bars and people walk from one bar to the next in groups of 2 to some times 8 or more
michael t
09-01-2007, 17:24
The case against Stephenson could be dismissed without a conviction at a future review, Otey said.
So if dismissed he won't lose his rights. Might be a good ruleing after all. Just need to wait and see.
kensteele
09-01-2007, 20:08
you don't need that much more information than this:
"Stephenson said that 'the gun went off as we were struggling,'..."
that's pretty much all i need to know....
Minuteman
09-01-2007, 20:41
Originally posted by 360
If Barnes abides by the requirements of the probation, her record could be wiped clean.
Barnes had pleaded guilty to negligent homicide.
:shocked:
Wiped clean... for negligent homicide?!?!?!
:shocked:
Glock .45 ACP
09-01-2007, 21:49
The dispute developed after Stephenson was driving with his wife and a pedestrian -- not Hackler -- obstructed his path, police reported.
It's a poorly written article. The first three times I read this, I thought Stephenson picked up some pedestrian.
Jason607
09-02-2007, 05:11
More to the story I am sure.
TheeBadOne
09-02-2007, 05:21
Originally posted by 360
Judge Millie Otey:
http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/Images/Judges/Otey_Millie.jpg
Looks like another 'soccer mom' who hates big, bad evil guns.
Although, with her shirt unbuttoned like that, I'd hit it.
Link to the page she's on HERE (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/Images/Judges/Otey_Millie.jpg&imgrefurl=http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/CODE/ASP/Criminal_Division_2.asp&h=146&w=125&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=WbNbgaOKwnFgyM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJudge%2BMillie%2BOtey%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN) So you're judging by "looks"?
Guess you better get rid of those evil black guns now...
Judge Millie Otey
Another judge who believes public places like parking lots belong to thugs and violent subterranean denizens.
Defending oneself is not cool, doncha know. :upeyes:
itsnitro
09-02-2007, 06:27
I re-read this article over and over again like the rest... and this didnt make sense either....
In court Tuesday, Hackler said he was in a parking lot and grabbed Stephenson after Stephenson pulled a gun.....
....Stephenson said he got a pistol out of his car "because I felt threatened" by Hackler, who he said had grabbed him around the throat.
the way the story is written is that Stephenson was out of his car for an unknown reason and at some point in time felt threatened by Hackler who was grabbing him... Stephenson THEN went back to his car and got his gun.... weird... Can't wait to see what happens with this...
Razoreye
09-02-2007, 09:25
Originally posted by TheeBadOne
So you're judging by "looks"?
Guess you better get rid of those evil black guns now... Hey man, don't let logic get in the way of a baseless rant.
pistolman1974
09-02-2007, 09:35
That article didn't make much sense.
Originally posted by TheeBadOne
So you're judging by "looks"?
Guess you better get rid of those evil black guns now...
Whether you like it or not, everyone judges by looks, including you. It's called a 'first impression'.
Little old lady or scruffy looking thug approaching you in the parking lot. Your actions will be based on how they look. This judge LOOKS like a soccer mom to me.
And yes, I'd STILL hit it.
Sounds like the shooter got off pretty easy to me. He could have been charged with a number of felonies, including attempted murder, aggravated assault, etc.
Glockanatorrrrr
09-02-2007, 19:26
Originally posted by itsnitro
I re-read this article over and over again like the rest... and this didnt make sense either....
the way the story is written is that Stephenson was out of his car for an unknown reason and at some point in time felt threatened by Hackler who was grabbing him... Stephenson THEN went back to his car and got his gun.... weird... Can't wait to see what happens with this...
I too read this many times. He is lucky he isn't going away for a LONG time!
i dont know what happened in the above, but i got punced realbad while a cop and had to retire, if some big ape grabs me by the neck while im going along my way, id shoot him. after trying to get away of course, another punch in the head for me and im a goner anyway..just my 2c.
A "common citizen"- one who works 9->5, holds his/her family together, attends civic meetings of government and school boards, etc., is no match for most paroled felons.
The lifer felon has spent years eating nutritious foods, bulking-up with weightlifting, practiced his wrestling/dominator techniques in gang showers, and comes out into main street America looking to continue where he left off. Only this time, he's been to Bad Boy U. and is better educated in the ways he has chosen to 'make a living'.
We must look like real prey.
DirtyJosh
09-03-2007, 06:39
this is the most confusing story ever followed by some pretty confusing responses...
mike1969
09-03-2007, 12:42
Damn.
Arent judges elected or appointed?? Why such a lax sentence on a negligent homicide??
But the way the article is written, it makes the perp look like the good guy. I am beginning to dislike the media. Something was clearly left out in this article. Reporters have a job to do, and that is, report the news. Most of the times though, its a one-sided journalism. Just like this.
I would like to know why the guy had to go back to his car, Was he going to drive away, and the other guy kept choking him?? It doesnt make sense.
even if there is more to the story, get that judge off the bench. if she lived in my area, id lead a crusade to get her out of any position of power. obviously she's a moron.
USDefender
09-03-2007, 13:31
As is always the case, I'd be willing to bet a month's pay that both men were being idiots and that the ruling is probably more fair than it seems.
I'm very familiar with where this situation took place (use to work at 10th & Boston). That's an area where there are four bars - one on each corner of the intersection. A lot of drunk people walk around there on the weekends, and I'll bet 'liquid courage' played at least a small part in that evening's proceedings.
Based on how light the shooter got off (the judge didn't sentence him to twenty years for attempted murder or anything) sounds like there was some 'road [parking lot] rage' -on the part of the shooter- mixed with drunken courage -on the part of the actual perp- a bad combo if ever there was one.
My only regret is that it only serves the purposes of the 'antis' when a guy, licensed to CCW, is convicted of anything.
*For what it's worth, I'm comming from the standpoint of having had to stand in front of a judge after defending myself from a stalker who followed me out of traffic once. Difference was, I couldn't get away from him after having tried three seperate times.
Believe me, I'm definitely NOT a huge fan of judges and I certainly have no idea what any of the actual details of this particular incident are. But I'd be willing to bet that the judge was basing her ruling on the fact that the shooter could've driven (and thus gotten) away before anything ever happened because the idiot who assaulted him was on foot.
i agree. as chl holders we need to be above reproach. don't be THAT guy that ruins it. if you live a lifestyle that takes you to places like bars and strip clubs leave the gun at home or don't even get your license.
USDefender
09-03-2007, 13:50
Originally posted by Dean
Personally I drive away at the slightest cause for alarm. Why? Because leaving my defenseless car for cowardly criminals to destroy doesn't seem the smartest part of valor to me. I would never "Get out of the car" to argue with a stranger who had not committed a crime yet.
:drillsgt:
+ 1 million
Just exactly the lesson I've learned - better to run, run away and live to fight another day than to kill someone in 'self defense' (whether justified or not) and have to live with the repercussions [legal/familial/financial/psychological] that will no doubt follow.
*There is no honor lost when lives are saved.
Originally posted by 360
Judge Millie Otey:
http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/Images/Judges/Otey_Millie.jpg
Looks like another 'soccer mom' who hates big, bad evil guns.
Although, with her shirt unbuttoned like that, I'd hit it.
Link to the page she's on HERE (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/Images/Judges/Otey_Millie.jpg&imgrefurl=http://216.247.165.133/Tulsadistrictcourt/CODE/ASP/Criminal_Division_2.asp&h=146&w=125&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=WbNbgaOKwnFgyM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJudge%2BMillie%2BOtey%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)
I find the criteria that you're judging her on annoyingly LIBERAL. So, if she LOOKS like a soccer mom, then she MUST hate guns?
How 'open minded' of you... :upeyes:
You're seriously MIS-judging an Oklahoma woman...let alone a judge. The women here may often times LOOK like the Soccer mom's in other states...but trust me when I say that many, many of OK's 'soccer moms' are packing heat.
=====
OK CCW ((link)) (http://www.alphecca.com/?p=278)
Women carrying guns on OK... ((link)) (http://hematite.com/dragon/ingraham.html)
"States such as Oklahoma and Florida report that concealed-carry permits are becoming more popular among women, many of whom feel vulnerable in places where Domino's Pizza is faster than 911."
=====
This is a seriously conservative state (shaped, directly, by the values of the American Old West - which Oklahoma was the very center of, figuratively as well as literally). Even many of the libs here act like the moderate Republicans of other states. How else would the Republican party carry our state in EVERY presidential election of recent history?
Also, you quoted another story on an incident involving a motorcyclist... FYI, motorcyclists here rarely wear helmets. Again, right in line with the 'old west' mentality that still persistes here, Oklahomans like to be as uninfringed' as possible. (I'm not origionally from here, but this IS one of the reasons I now live here). Thusly, our motorcycle helmet laws aren't inforced by local LEOs like they are in other states.
===== Motorcycle Crash Injury ((link)) (http://www.health.state.ok.us/program/injury/factsheets/motorcycle_injuries.htm)
Each Year:
Approximately 720 persons are injured.
Approximately 30 persons die.
Approximately 78% of persons killed are not wearing helmets.
Approximately 70% of non-helmeted persons die from head injuries, compared to 36% for helmeted persons.
Oklahoma Helmet Law Commentary ((link)) (http://usff.com/hldl/hlstatutes/oklahomahl.html)
"We realize that most motorcyclists in Oklahoma do not feel impacted by the helmet law in any real way, at this time. There are two reasons, we believe, that it is important to maintain a constant vigilance regarding the Oklahoma helmet law: 1) We believe that helmets are dangerous in many situations, in that in addition to all the commonly accepted problems -- vision and hearing impairment, heat retention, and others -- the weight and design of most of the traditionally accepted helmet styles make then a serious threat to the neck, particularly a young neck. And, 2) a modification of the statute to include adults is much more of a threat when the statute is already on the books, and there are no complaints about it. We think it is very very important that motorcyclists complain, early and often. The price of freedom is, after all, eternal vigilance.
From our beginning in 1993, it has been the position of the Helmet Law Defense League that all helmet laws are unconstitutional , in the absence of clear guidelines on how to comply with the statute -- like, for instance, with a list of "approved helmets.""
=====
I find the above thinking disturbing since helmets have been proven to save so many lives, but I have no doubt that the biker who lost his life wasn't wearing any head protection.
It's also very possible that that guy might just have survived if he'd been wearing a helmet - but we'll never know based on the detail-lacking article you provided.
Your article says the driver 'ran over him', but it really doesn't specify just WHAT his injuries were. Also, if you'll do the smallest amount of research, you'll find that many motorcyclists killed by autos are struck because the other driver [U]didn't see them[/I].
That's common because bikes are so much smaller than cars/trucks/SUVs.
All this aside, you seem really quick to form judgements based SOLEY on the details provided in seriously detail-deficient news stories. That's really unfortunate considering you obviously hail from a DIFFERENT state and are unfamiliar with Okalhoma culture - legal or otherwise.
I'd say you need to seriously re-evaluate the 'evidence' you base your decisions on.
Fiery Red XIII
09-03-2007, 16:03
Originally posted by Cody Jarrett
We don't know the whole story for sure but it sounds like he pulled the gun without facing a dealy threat. I was reading Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" last night and remember him saying that a fist fight is not grounds to use a gun. A punch, slap, shove or a common fistfight does not warrant the use of deadly force. he goes on to say that if you use the gun in these situations you may be prosecuted. Well, I guess he's right.
However, there are so many things that need to be looked at before any of us can pass judgement. Who was the initial aggressor? Did either party try to retreat? Was there a large disparity between the size, capabilities and ages of the combatants. Did either party continue to pursue the other (If you pursue someone after the initial confrontation has ended and your opponent retreats you have now become the agressor).
And in MN, they've had at least 3 "one-punch" kills in the past couple of years...one at a bowling alley, one at a bar, and another on a bus.
Red
jdeere_man
09-03-2007, 22:27
I'm sorry to state, but if you get out of a car to confront someone whom "made you mad" for "blocking traffic" that makes you the aggressor. That would make it inappropriate for you, the aggressor to shoot a guy. If I was in my car and felt threatened my first approach to handeling the situation would be to drive away.
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