Norc and Armscor 1911 FS in RP [Archive] - Glock Talk

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chowchow
10-05-2007, 19:28
Sa palagay nyo , which among the two is the most widely popular and owned? Salamat.

horge
10-06-2007, 16:42
Last time I was paying attention to it (1.5 to 2 years ago),
Armscor GI's were outselling Norinco GI's nearly 5 to 1 in
Luzon and upper Visayas.This may have as much to do with
distribution as consumer appeal.

The two pistols were priced identically.

pipo
10-07-2007, 16:11
I used to have both. I purchased them at just about the same time. Sold the armscor. :)

chowchow
10-07-2007, 20:37
Anything wrong with the armscor?

tagaykoyan
10-07-2007, 21:50
probably nobody wants to buy the norc. joke.

batangueno
10-08-2007, 05:51
Visual side by side comparison, one would really choose armscor. Mas maganda talaga kaysa norinco. Tapos they also have to consider bad reputation of china made products.

For me advantage lang talaga ng norinco yung metal quality which some probably doesn't know.

pipo
10-08-2007, 16:14
Originally posted by chowchow
Anything wrong with the armscor?

nothing naman... just needed the money to buy a glock17 :supergrin:

Walther PPK
10-10-2007, 03:41
Originally posted by
batangueno
For me advantage lang talaga ng norinco yung metal quality which some probably doesn't know.

Sir Batangueno, i'd just like to ask what's with the metal quality of both guns?

I've seen it posted on other forums about the metals used but I'm a bit lost. :)

I'm in the market for 1911 and been eyeing for the Armscor or RIA.

But, before I pick one, I'm trying to get info regarding those FA as much as I could.

Thanks!

pipo
10-10-2007, 03:53
allow me....

from 1911 forum:

EpicMale

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.

Take Care

Walther PPK
10-10-2007, 04:11
Whew! talking about information!!! :hugs:

Thanks Pipo!

So, Norc uses a higher grade of steel than Armscor/RIA. The reason I'm being so picky is because it's going to be my first gun in a higher caliber. I'd like it to be special and it should last like my other babies :)

:banana:

The seller here in our area quoted me 15,900 and 21,900 for the single stack, while 28k for the hi-cap. I'd better contact them for what's the difference between the two single stack variants.

lapu2x
10-10-2007, 06:46
Walther PPK
Have you ever considered buying a Shooters' 1911. Check it out.

chowchow
10-10-2007, 08:03
One shooter next to me at the range was shooting his new RIA milspec just by coincidence . I got to see it for myself and it is a very well made 1911. Everything was tight. He bought it for $399 plus tax in a gunshow.

Walther PPK
10-10-2007, 17:13
Originally posted by lapu2x
Walther PPK
Have you ever considered buying a Shooters' 1911. Check it out.

Shooter's 1911? I'll check that one too! thanks! Is this the SAM I often see posted?

I went to the store yesterday and unfortunately, they dont have a norc on display. I managed to check on RIA and Armscor. I find them very tempting, especially the RIA!! :supergrin: Now I know why RIA is a very sought item abroad.

Both of them are tightly fitted and no play between the slide and receiver...I was thinking that it was just brand new--(any feedback on this). Plus I like the default stock on the RIA, wood, unlike on the Armscor which is plastic...something you see on plastic toyguns.

One thing I notice on Armscor is the beavertail, hammer, trigger and the ambidextrous safety lock. It's way different with RIA. RIA's parts is more like the old stock 1911.

Bad thing, I wasn't able to compare the Norc...well, anyway, it only means I'll still have reasons to go to the gun shop! Thing my better half dislikes.

:supergrin:

tagaykoyan
10-10-2007, 20:31
if your pistol is beautiful from the start (like RIA), then you would enjoy making himas himas out of the box. kung pangit, antayin mo pang maayos ng gunsmith before you start fondling it.

personally, i think the hardness of the Norinco steel is an overkill. unless you want your pistol to double up as a hammer:animlol: