PNP Pistol Trials redux [Archive] - Glock Talk

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CatsMeow
10-16-2007, 00:20
Hi all,

I was still assigned in Manila when all this went down.

There were some trials for the selection of the new PNP service pistol; I saw some photos at Ultra Systems of the CZ-75 being put through a torture test. It seemed like the CZ-75 would be the winner; it was even endorsed by Czech President Vaclav Havel. All of a sudden the Beretta M92DS was selected.

Does anybody have an idea as to what actually happened?

saki1611
10-16-2007, 00:32
Originally posted by CatsMeow
Hi all,

I was still assigned in Manila when all this went down.

There were some trials for the selection of the new PNP service pistol; I saw some photos at Ultra Systems of the CZ-75 being put through a torture test. It seemed like the CZ-75 would be the winner; it was even endorsed by Czech President Vaclav Havel. All of a sudden the Beretta M92DS was selected.

Does anybody have an idea as to what actually happened?

obviously the beretta won because it bacame the standard issue of the PNP almost 10yrs ago. just last year i heard that PNP was also having a torture test with Police Norinco, i dont know yet what hapened.

CatsMeow
10-16-2007, 00:43
I remember some sort of protest from Ultra Systems which quieted down. It was then that you could get one for P18k gunshow price.

Actually the Beretta M92DS is not a bad selection; I found I could hit with one fairly well (but then I'm an old revolver shot), plus it's ideal for all those klutzes in cops' uniform (won't go off unless the trigger is pulled), plus a positive safety. I remember the Glock got knocked out of contention because the PNP wanted an all-metal pistol, for whatever reason. I was just wondering why it was selected out of the blue when the CZ-75 looked poised to win it.

Allegra
10-16-2007, 02:50
beretta won in exchange for the Philippines putting up a ICBMs in Italy. Or was it because they began hiring more DHs?

They needed an all metal gun kasi it will be shot little but gagamitin pangpukpok ng ulo a lot

TTPower
10-16-2007, 03:52
i heard this news about what happend to the testing of the norinco police from someone inside FED.... in short chismis to ah! he said that norinco won over armscor in the torture test but since one of the owners of armscor is a relative of the 1st gentleman... supplying the PNP with firearms was awarded to Armscor.

IMHO, totoo or hindi..i think its just right that armscor gets the project. we should patronize our own products and besides armscor FA have improved and proven themselves
:thumbsup:

pero ang tibay daw talaga ng norinco and it passed with flying colors.... they even drop the gun from the 3rd floor of a bldg and ayos pa rin daw. the armscor was a different story. (again kwento lng rin sa akin yan!) but i dont think our PNP are that clumsy to drop their guns from the 3rd floor! hahahahaha

pipo
10-16-2007, 07:07
good thing i kept this link for posterity ha ha ha

http://www.newsflash.org/2003/05/hl/hl019230.htm

horge
10-16-2007, 09:35
The Beretta won a 1998 PNP bid-out for its general service handgun,
and we got shafted big time by Fabrica D’Armi Pietro Beretta S.P.A.,
which was represented in the Philippines by Armaments Unlimited,Inc.
thru Mr. Edgar V. Lucas (with offices conveniently inside Camp Aguinaldo,
across EDSA from HQ PNP).

Beretta did not deliver the contract quantity of firearms,
claiming exchange-rate fluctuations had excused it from
its obligations. I'm pretty sure CZ would have kept its word
had it won the bid.

....

The Armscor scandal linked to above by pipo involves a totally
different PNP bid/contract, for a SAF/SWAT sidearm, in 2003.

chowchow
10-16-2007, 09:54
Norinco 1911 na nalo? I bet thats true, hindi lang pinalaki sa report bec dameng prejudice sa intsik sa atin. Besides Amrscor is improving well and has good customer service:hugs:

CatsMeow
10-16-2007, 19:00
Originally posted by horge
The Beretta won a 1998 PNP bid-out for its general service handgun,
and we got shafted big time by Fabrica D’Armi Pietro Beretta S.P.A.,
which was represented in the Philippines by Armaments Unlimited,Inc.
thru Mr. Edgar V. Lucas (with offices conveniently inside Camp Aguinaldo,
across EDSA from HQ PNP).

Beretta did not deliver the contract quantity of firearms,
claiming exchange-rate fluctuations had excused it from
its obligations. I'm pretty sure CZ would have kept its word
had it won the bid.

....

The Armscor scandal linked to above by pipo involves a totally
different PNP bid/contract, for a SAF/SWAT sidearm, in 2003.

So that explains why the new PNP Chief does not tote one. There were not enough, even for him.:supergrin:

That also explains why a lot of cops don't have one as well. While the rusty Armscor revolvers have disappeared for the most part, Cebu PNP still carries a mix: Berettas, M1911s (more common), Glocks, plus a few revolvers for the old-timers (with plenty of speedloaders; one could have sworn they were going to a match!:supergrin: ).

Pero Pasay PNP beats them all, when I was still a student, every Pasay cop I saw toted a S&W M10 heavy barrel .38.:thumbsup:

isuzu
10-16-2007, 20:50
I believe that the torture test was done in the early 90's. I was also surprised why Beretta won. CZ was indeed, poised to win the contract.

Catsmeow, did Ultra Systems file a protest or a case because it lost the contract?

A lot of cops had their Berettas converted from DAO to single action in Bacolod; and quite a number of ADs, too. Once you cycled the slide, you can't safely bring the hammer down on a live round because of the bobbed hammer. Some cops received 92Fs in lieu of the 92 DAOs.

CatsMeow
10-16-2007, 21:13
There was a protest but I did not hear anything further. This is why I was asking, perhaps our fellow BoGs are in a better position to know.:) But then Ultra Systems is already gone from the top floor of SM Megamall..don't know where they went.

DAO is indeed hard to shoot unless mastered. I dry-fired my revolver every night until I got to the point that the front sight did not move when the hammer fell; by then my plastic snap-caps had already cracked.:supergrin: I did see some 92Fs; I thought they were privately-owned, like at least one cop I saw who toted a Taurus PT-92, unmistakable because of its frame-mounted safety.

isuzu
10-16-2007, 21:26
Heard that the later issues were Taurus PT92s instead of Berettas. Wondered why the supposed "downgrade." I'm not saying the Taurus pistols are bad; I had one that I had to eventually give to my wife because she was very comfortable shooting it. There's quite a significant price difference between the two, though.

As for the 1911s, the contract should go to Armscor. However, Armscor should provide a good warranty policy on the contracted pistols. They should also give the higher models instead of the basic ones so that the cop won't spend extra for good sights, beavertail, checkering, etc.

IMO, Arsmcor should also run special serial numbers on the pistols and stamp a PNP logo on the frame and slide deep enough to prevent them from being tampered. That should discourage some rogue cops to tamper the serial numbers and pawn the firearms.

CatsMeow
10-16-2007, 21:46
Hope it won't be a repeat of that Auto-Ordnance incident, that is, the PNP allegedly got some sub-standard AO 1911s.

isuzu
10-16-2007, 21:51
Originally posted by CatsMeow
Hope it won't be a repeat of that Auto-Ordnance incident, that is, the PNP allegedly got some sub-standard AO 1911s.

My gunsmith who hails from Danao told me that the AO pistols, prior to being taken over by Kimber had soft metals. There were Air Force chopper pilots who had them, and according to the gunsmith, the first to fail is the hammer and sear. Their pistols went on full auto because of this.

CatsMeow
10-17-2007, 01:32
I actually saw an AO of a reserve officer with this problem. When the slide was racked, the hammer followed the slide home; good thing it was unloaded. Sure to make it a machine gun.:supergrin:

horge
10-17-2007, 03:41
Word is that the Taurus PT92 pistols (all 5,000-odd) are
acquitting themselves well naman. Taurus offered the lowest bid
vs. Tanfoglio/Armscor and (--amazingly still entertained--) Beretta
through its local dist.

slightly adjusted per-unit cost:
Taurus : P19,400
Tanfoglio/Armscor : P26,000
Beretta : P37,500

So, malayo talaga ang clear winner ng bid.
Forjas Taurus delivered on the contract kaagad,
no funny stuff like Beretta in 98.


...and, err, nag-ka 'senior moment' yata kayo, hehehe.
Auto-Ordnance was taken over by the Moonies (Kahr),
rather than by Kimber.
(Kapag ako naman ang naka-limot, sagipin ninyo rin ako, ha?)
:)

nrmcolt
10-17-2007, 06:16
Yep, supposedly the "new AO line of firearms" according to the interweb have improve since the guys at Kahr took over the helm.

pipo
10-18-2007, 05:42
I personally prefer the frame mounted safety of the taurus as compared to the slide mounted safety of beretta.

royal glockster
10-18-2007, 07:42
AFAIK, Taurus PT92 series pistol won the contract to supply the PNP sidearms.

horge
10-18-2007, 08:12
AFAIK, Taurus PT92 series pistol won the contract to supply the PNP sidearms.

:)
Only insofar as the 2006 bid-out was concerned, which was furthermore in
relation to preparations for the ASEAN meet in Cebu.

This was totally different from the 1998 bid-out won by Beretta,
and from the 2003 SAF/SWAT bid-out that was apparently doctored (repeatedly) to favor Armscor.

atmarcella
10-18-2007, 08:20
tagged......

chowchow
10-18-2007, 10:17
A linky about the test ie Norinco was still shooting after 5000 rds while competitors' frames developed cracks.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=8801

horge
10-18-2007, 16:45
What no one bothered to keep discussing, in the aftermath of that 2003
Armscor scandal (bid spec tailoring) is the gripe that the Norincos submitted
for the PNP-SAF contract trials had been tuned extensively by Juan Bayang.
There was even allegation that the internals had not just been fluffed,
but actually replaced.

Just me, but a bid specimen should be representative of the contract unit.
Anyway... the most recent bid-out seemed to work out well and honestly,
so I'm happy for our law enforcement officers and especially the tax payer.

Sana ganyan lagi, and mahawa na rin ang consumables bid-outs.
Lalo na sa AFP and sa Coast Guard.

isuzu
10-18-2007, 17:09
Word is that the Taurus PT92 pistols (all 5,000-odd) are
acquitting themselves well naman. Taurus offered the lowest bid
vs. Tanfoglio/Armscor and (--amazingly still entertained--) Beretta
through its local dist.

slightly adjusted per-unit cost:
Taurus : P19,400
Tanfoglio/Armscor : P26,000
Beretta : P37,500

So, malayo talaga ang clear winner ng bid.
Forjas Taurus delivered on the contract kaagad,
no funny stuff like Beretta in 98.


...and, err, nag-ka 'senior moment' yata kayo, hehehe.
Auto-Ordnance was taken over by the Moonies (Kahr),
rather than by Kimber.
(Kapag ako naman ang naka-limot, sagipin ninyo rin ako, ha?)
:)

My bad, Horge. Kahr pala, not Kimber.