Run-in with ill-informed DNR [Archive] - Glock Talk

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GIJoeCam
10-25-2007, 13:38
I had an interesting run-in with an ill-informed DNR officer this weekend. I thought I might share my experience as a learning experience.

My wife and I along with two other couples were out driving the trails around Kalkaska, Grayling, and Frederick, MI, this weekend. We were out doing nothing more than enjoying the fall colors, taking some pictures of ourselves, our friends, and our trucks in the beautiful pallette mother nature provides every year around this time.

As we got to the end of one section of trail, our convoy of three trucks (led by me) came up behind another pickup. Just as we neared the intersection of the trail with a main road, a DNR officer rounded the corner, stopped, and rolled his window down to talk to the driver in front of us. They chatted for a couple minutes, and the officer sent him on his way. I pulled forward, rolled down the window, and had the following conversation:

Me: Me
CO: Conservation Officer

CO: Good Afternoon
Me: Good Afternoon, officer.
CO: How're you doing today?
Me: Good!
CO: Are you out here running bear?
Me: Huh? {confused look on my face} No, sir, we're just out running the trails, taking pictures of the fall colors. Here's our camera...
CO: Well, I noticed you all have antennas on your trucks, and the guy behind you has a dog, and... are they just CB's?
Me: Yes, sir, just CB's for trail communication. We're not hunting for bear or anything... the dog is their pet.
CO: (noticing the license plate of the guy behind us) You guys all from Ohio?
Me: no, sir, myself and the third truck are from Michigan, the couple in the middle are from Ohio.
CO: What about the fourth truck?
Me: huh? {glances in mirror} They're not with us. I didn't know they were even there.
CO: OK. Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?
Me:Yes, sir, I have a concealed weapons permit, and a loaded pistol between the seats.
CO: {Putting the vehicle in park and exiting the vehicle} Can I see your license please?
Me: Absolutely. {Hand him my driver's license and CCW permit}
CO: Can I inspect the weapon, please?
Me: Absolutely.
CO: Keep it pointed in a safe direction, but I'm sure you know that.
Me: {Hands the still-holstered weapon through the window}
CO: Do you have the registration card for this gun?
Me: {thinking, 'You moron, we don't register guns here in Michigan, and there's no legal requirement that says I have to carry the safety inspection certificate with me at any time!!} No sir.
CO: Well, see, that serial number on the gun is on the registration certificate, but it's not on your CCW permit, so you really should carry the registration with you so it can prove to me that this gun is registered to you.
Me: OK.
CO: {Holster's my weapon, hands the gun and paperwork back to me} You're all set. Have a nice day.
Me: You too! {thinking to myself, "You too, you ill-informed moron!!"}

I darn near bit my tongue off when he asked for the registration card LOL!! Just another illustration that not all LEOs know the laws they're charged with upholding. In this case, I would expect the CO to know the CCW laws... I find it hard to believe I'm the first person he's ever come across with a concealed weapon.

For the record, there's no legal requirement that the safety inspection certificate be kept with the gun. As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong) there's no legal requirement that the gun I carry concealed even be registered in my name.... In fact, last I checked, Michigan doesn't register guns at all. They perform a 'safety inspection' and that's it. Now, as a back-door registration, the safety inspection can trace the gun's ownership to a particular person, but that person doesn't have to be me in order for me to carry it.

Furthermore, if the officer has any doubt as to the legal ownership of the weapon, he's more than welcome to call the serial number in and see whose name it comes back with. Why should I have to carry a card that gets him out of doing his job? IMO, the inspection card could be forged way easier than the state of Michigan's database.

Any thoughts? I think I handled it the best way I could. The only thing I would have done different if I replay the scene in my head is to disclose I had a concealed weapon earlier in the conversation. There really wasn't a good point to interject with 'I've got a CCW and a gun' prior to where I did, as I was following his line of questioning, and prior to that point, I'm not entirely sure I was 'detained' by the officer.... Either way, he seemed like a pretty cool guy (albeit ill-informed). In retrospect, I would have liked to get his name so I could send a letter to his post suggesting that they clarify the CCW and registration requirements with the staff. Oh, well.... Maybe next time.

Thought? Comments? Suggestions? If nothing else, this might make for a learning experience for someone. It's my first contact with an LEO while carrying concealed...

-Joe

gsbell
10-25-2007, 14:18
CO's generally have a reputation for what you experienced

Glock 19 God
10-25-2007, 23:00
COs are generally people who applied to every Police Department in the state and were never hired.

COBRA90GT
10-25-2007, 23:50
He probably didn't want to take the extra time to run the serial number via his dispatch/LEIN/etc.

I wouldn't read into it too much, personally. He didn't say you "shall" carry the reg card, did he? Perhaps he is accustomed to people in his area who regularly offer up their reg cards during contacts...

I've had quite a few encounters where citizens regularly offer up their reg cards [along with their driver's license, carry license, hunting license, FOP cards (lol) ] during contacts.

Trebor
10-26-2007, 01:28
Actually, you got lucky.

The DNR officers are considered law enforcement officers for purpose of the CPL law. Under the current law if you have a CPL and are carrying a concealed pistol you are "immediately" required to tell the officer you that you have a CPL and you are carrying a pistol. You failed to do that and a hard ass could have caused you a problem about that.

Granted, if you are both in your trucks it's a little different from a typical traffic stop when you are pulled over for speeding or whatever. Still, he was talking to you in an official capacity and, in my opinion, you were effectively "stopped" for the duration of the questioning.

Personally, right after "Hello, officer" I would have said, "Just so you know, I do have a Michigan Concealed Pistol license and I am carrying a pistol today. "

I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice, etc, just my belief on the matter.

GIJoeCam
10-26-2007, 05:20
Actually, you got lucky.

The DNR officers are considered law enforcement officers for purpose of the CPL law. Under the current law if you have a CPL and are carrying a concealed pistol you are "immediately" required to tell the officer you that you have a CPL and you are carrying a pistol. You failed to do that and a hard ass could have caused you a problem about that.

Granted, if you are both in your trucks it's a little different from a typical traffic stop when you are pulled over for speeding or whatever. Still, he was talking to you in an official capacity and, in my opinion, you were effectively "stopped" for the duration of the questioning.

Personally, right after "Hello, officer" I would have said, "Just so you know, I do have a Michigan Concealed Pistol license and I am carrying a pistol today. "

I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice, etc, just my belief on the matter.

Agreed. In my defense, as I mentioned before, it was my first ever encounter with law enforcement while carrying.

However, the law (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf) states,
An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

What defines 'stopped' is debatable. I think in this case, yes, I was probably stopped, but as to what defines 'stopped', AFAIk, the courts have not expressly defined that yet. When I stopped along side his truck, he may have wanted to ask about the weather, or the trail conditions, or he may have wanted to interrogate us because we fit the profile of bear poachers. I think if he had actually gotten out of his truck, waved us down, and asked us to exit the vehicle, that would clearly be 'stopped'. In our case, I think it still falls a little bit into the gray area. At any rate, if he didn't understand the registration laws, I would be surprised if he had evaluated the finer points of the disclosure law.

In the future, I would agree that it should have been the first thing out of my mouth... LEOs of any sort make me nervous, even when I haven't done anything wrong... I have no idea why. I understand now why the people on Cops sometimes seem like babbling fools!!

-Joe

JohnJak
10-26-2007, 05:43
They are not to smart here in Michigan.

zbusdriver
10-26-2007, 07:29
They are not to smart here in Michigan.that would be "too smart," NOT "to smart" as you stated.

be careful calling someone, or an entire group of people (Michigan Conservation Officers in this case), stupid; it may reflect poorly upon you.

as my signature line says:

sjfrellc
10-26-2007, 17:04
You did fine and his comments should roll off your back.
Stop making allusions to inspections not being registrations. Inspection is a euphemism for registration. Serial numbers are registered in Michigan, no doubt. I as a law abiding citizen am OK with it.
Of course you don't have to carry the green card.

JohnJak
10-27-2007, 06:09
that would be "too smart," NOT "to smart" as you stated.

be careful calling someone, or an entire group of people (Michigan Conservation Officers in this case), stupid; it may reflect poorly upon you.

as my signature line says:

The word stupid was not used. I believe the term "not to smart" was used. As a former U.S. Marshall I have all the respect for all LEO's.

Zippy06
11-02-2007, 00:47
Try this link.
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-138642--,00.html

Or this??????
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-16241--,00.html

Are these the same????

centennial
11-02-2007, 06:10
Nothing really wrong with what he did or suggested.
It is a good idea to carry your gren card, but not required by law.
We DO have registration in Michigan. We do NOT have safety inspections.
The people doing the registration are not qualified to perform a real safety inspections.
Had he pulled you out of your vehicles and tore them apart, patted you down, detained you for hours, you may have a gripe.
Get over it.

He could have caused you a lot of problems for not informing him right away about your concealed firearm.
He gave you a break.

zbusdriver
11-02-2007, 08:19
Nothing really wrong with what he did or suggested.
It is a good idea to carry your gren card, but not required by law.
We DO have registration in Michigan. We do NOT have safety inspections.
The people doing the registration are not qualified to perform a real safety inspections.
Had he pulled you out of your vehicles and tore them apart, patted you down, detained you for hours, you may have a gripe.
Get over it.

He could have caused you a lot of problems for not informing him right away about your concealed firearm.
He gave you a break.+1

i don't understand the constant criticism of our law enforcement personnel. i think the stop went very well. your green card “does” prove ownership. the conservation officer was just giving the guy a travel tip – no need to take offense . and, you're absolutely correct, the FIRST words out of the opening poster’s mouth SHOULD have been "sir, i have a CPL and i am caring."

steveksux
11-04-2007, 10:00
you're absolutely correct, the FIRST words out of the opening poster’s mouth SHOULD have been "sir, i have a CPL and i am caring."While I'm sure the officer will appreciate that you care, the law requires you notify him you are carrying... ;)

Randy

TAC-GLOCK
11-04-2007, 11:46
Nothing really wrong with what he did or suggested.
It is a good idea to carry your gren card, but not required by law.
We DO have registration in Michigan. We do NOT have safety inspections.
The people doing the registration are not qualified to perform a real safety inspections.
Had he pulled you out of your vehicles and tore them apart, patted you down, detained you for hours, you may have a gripe.
Get over it.

He could have caused you a lot of problems for not informing him right away about your concealed firearm.
He gave you a break.


I agree 100%!

zbusdriver
11-04-2007, 19:54
While I'm sure the officer will appreciate that you care, the law requires you notify him you are carrying... ;)

Randylol – it's not easy being stupid!

i'm going to have to get my spell checker fixed – why doesn’t it know what i'm trying to say?

PawDog
11-04-2007, 20:19
The word stupid was not used. I believe the term "not to smart" was used. As a former U.S. Marshall I have all the respect for all LEO's.

Uh, it's U.S. Marshal, one "L", not two.......most U.S. Marshals, or formers, would know this.

freakshow10mm
11-05-2007, 20:52
I was waiting for the disclosure of your CPL status as the first words out of your mouth. They are LE. They attend the state police academy. They have full arrest powers and can enforce any law that any other police agency can enforce.

You got lucky. That is it.

If you are splitting hairs as toe the nomenclature of the safety inspection/registration then you are wrong here:
I have a concealed weapons permit
You have a Concealed Pistol License, not a concealed weapons permit.

dozing4dollars
11-10-2007, 05:47
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but didn't the change in MI law recently allow a CCW/CPL holder to carry another's legally registered ("inspected") pistol legally ? The gun does not have to be "registered to you".

Case in point- I am carrying my wife's Glock 26 instead of my Glock 27. Under the old law, you could not do this. With the change of May 2006 or so, you can. Not that I would want to carry that lil' 9 sillymeter thing...

I think that is one area the CO may have been incorrect on due to the change in law.


From MI State Police website:re: CCW holders & MI Concealed Pistol Laws

Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend?

MCL 28.432 An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed and inspected under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan.

freakshow10mm
11-10-2007, 07:06
Yes, that is correct and the MCL you qutoed is the formal way of saying it. If you have a CPL you can possess any pistol that is lawfully registered in MI.

Garrett Smith
11-10-2007, 08:15
"The word stupid was not used. I believe the term "not to smart" was used. As a former U.S. Marshall I have all the respect for all LEO's"

Had you been a U.S. Marshal, you would have known how to spell it.

You described the Officer as a moron. Does that make you a licensed psychologist?

Not sure if you're a Troll. Pretty sure you're struggling with a dose of arrogance.

Blitzer
11-10-2007, 08:22
You guys like pissing contests don't you? :(

Texas357
11-10-2007, 12:38
You guys like pissing contests don't you? :(

13k posts, and your just now noticing?