Why Seperate Lodges? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ede
11-22-2007, 06:06
why are there Prince Hall lodges? it seems to me that it goes against everything we're taught about looking at the chacter of the person and not their position, title, or what they own. discussion came up not long ago and not a single person in the discussion said they'd be opposed to allowing any man that met the requirements from becoming a member of our lodge. i'll admit it was only 4 or so talking about it and all were what i'd call younger members with me being the oldest at 48.

jrr6602
11-24-2007, 07:26
Prince Hall was a slave that was iniated into a British Army Lodge during the Revolutionary war. The Grand Lodge of Texas considers the Prince Hall lodges as being "clandestine".

gunsablazin
11-26-2007, 17:16
The Grand Lodge of Tennessee considers them clandestine also. I hope that is changed someday, we are all brothers afterall,masons, Prince Hall masons and non masons. From what I have been told the Prince Hall Lodges have as high of standards as the Blue Lodge, welcome them with open arms I say. If I could I would sit in their lodge any time.

Robin

jrr6602
11-26-2007, 18:28
If there weren't a Tennessee, there wouldn't have been a Texas. Thanks to two prominent Brother Masons from Tennessee, Sam Houston and David Crockett.

Bilbo Baggins
11-27-2007, 01:44
I am proud that Pa Recognizes our Prince Hall Brothers, and that I have been to the lodges in an official capacity

RED64CJ5
11-27-2007, 20:40
This is a subject that will certainly bring about a heated discussion in most AF / F & AM lodges in the United States. Yes, there are those with racist and hatred behind their motives, but that occurs in any organization and I don't think it represents the true character of a Mason.

I've known Prince Hall Masons who have stated their opposition to formal recognition, so be careful in making assumptions that it's a "white against blacks" issue. I don't see that as the case. It's simply a set of two groups maintaining the orders of their traditions for generations.

Even in Texas, we have regular, non-Prince Hall, lodges with both whites and blacks. I don't think most lodges would black ball (no pun intended) a petitioner from another race. I certainly would accept a man for his internal, not his external qualities.

mmsig229
11-28-2007, 16:52
Ohio recognizes Prince Hall Masons. I have not been to a PH Lodge, but I've heard their ritual abilities puts the rest of us to shame!!!!!

JayPap
11-29-2007, 08:26
The reason why there were two seperate lodges is answered at the door in the first degree. Check your ritual.

Times changed during the Civil War which changed some peoples qualifications.

ArodJohns
12-07-2007, 14:55
Ohio recognizes Prince Hall Masons. I have not been to a PH Lodge, but I've heard their ritual abilities puts the rest of us to shame!!!!!

I attended one quite a while ago. I was only a lowly EA at that time, but even so their opening ritual was nothing short of impressive. So much of our "standard" (I use that term VERY loosely) lodges are fairly lax, but they were impressive.

jetboatdriver
12-07-2007, 22:00
Prince Hall was a slave that was iniated into a British Army Lodge during the Revolutionary war. The Grand Lodge of Texas considers the Prince Hall lodges as being "clandestine".


jr,

It is my understanding that as of about a year ago the GL of TX recognized the PH- is that inaccurate? Significant issue for me.

blue0623
12-08-2007, 09:01
jr,

It is my understanding that as of about a year ago the GL of TX recognized the PH- is that inaccurate? Significant issue for me.

Yes you are right the Grand Lodge of Texas did recognize the Prince Hall Lodge, but only for them having their own lodge, we still cannot sit in there's nor they in ours..

also another thing that is different is that instead of having to ask a mason to join, the only way to join their lodge is for one of their member to ask you to join.

Bilbo Baggins
12-11-2007, 00:00
also another thing that is different is that instead of having to ask a mason to join, the only way to join their lodge is for one of their member to ask you to join.



HHHMMMMM, now that is a piece of info I did not have

jetboatdriver
12-11-2007, 08:30
HHHMMMMM, now that is a piece of info I did not have

Both of those are pieces of information I did not have. I was told that they were not clandestine any longer. Not sure I like the newer information, something about my obiligations wording.......

zoyter2
12-11-2007, 21:54
Guys bear in mind that there is as much, if not more, difference in the PH lodges and various jurisdictions as there are in ours.

Some are by invitation, some cannot ask. Some are very formal, some very laid back.

Some are very involved in great works within the community, and pride themselves in their competency and morality while others are basically boys clubs.

Someone told me once that only 11 states fail to recognize PH masons as Mason. These 11 states are right around the southeast. I have not checked it out so take it for what it is worth.

There is nothing in Alabama's Constitution, Resolutions or Edicts that disallow a black man from being a Mason. We recently had a black kid in DeMolay here in town. From past conversations with some PH friends of mine, the idea of a separation is a mutual thing.

Bilbo Baggins
12-11-2007, 22:21
People keep refering to the obligations here, I do not see anything in our obligation that precludes a person based on skin color or race.
I am fairly certin I know the line people are refering to but it is based on something other than skin or race in my interpertation and understanding of it.
I have also heard that the seperation is a mutual feeling from parties on both sides in some conversations with Prince Hall Masons I have had.

ArodJohns
12-11-2007, 23:07
People keep refering to the obligations here, I do not see anything in our obligation that precludes a person based on skin color or race. I am fairly certin I know the line people are refering to but it is based on something other than skin or race in my interpertation and understanding of it.
I have also heard that the seperation is a mutual feeling from parties on both sides in some conversations with Prince Hall Masons I have had.

I think you're right. I'll have to get out my ritual and look at the specific wording, but off the top of my head there's something to the general affect of "I won't be there when a person becomes a Master Mason if that group isn't recognized by my Grand Lodge." That's the gist of it I believe.

MIke Oswalt
01-13-2008, 00:14
I just found this section of the club house. I see alot of good information here. I hope everyone is aware that all black brothers are not Prince Hall. There is a large population here that are 4 letter. Some do not believe that, some just don't know.

MarcoPolo
01-15-2008, 17:22
I think there is a bit more to the story, at least from the standpoint of Texas:

1. Texas voted to recognize PHA (Prince Hall)
2. Texas did NOT (and could not) vote on co-visitation as it was not requested by the
PH GL. It is my understanding that a co-visitation vote WOULD have passed at GL. So, it appears that the roadblock here is not "racists" in the GLOT; rather PH not wanting the co-visitation. I, for one, hope this will change.

I think there are reasons for both sides to not want the co-visitation;
Many in PHA do not want co-visitation for fear that PH Masonry would be "swallowed" and lose their identity to "mainstream" Masonry. I can certainly understand this. There is also a very long and proud history of PHA in the local community. There may also be some (understandable) ill-will over the history of racism that unfortunately may have existed in the past on both sides.

As for why some in A/F&AM ("mainstream") masonry do not want visitation;

1. For some, it is a masonic "legal" matter. PH Lodge was originally granted a charter as an individual lodge and NOT as a GL who could charter other lodges. While PHA was originally chartered byt the UGLE (England), I have been told that they were suspended from the rolls for non-payment. These two facts, in a Masonic sense, would make it forbidden for us to hold Masonic communication with them. However, UGLE has since confirmed that they are "regular" and accepted. This should (in my mind) end the whole argument.

2. Unfortunately, there is racism (on both sides) which people cloak with other arguments (legal, tradition, us vs. them, etc.)

I think this will change in the near future. As soon as PHA in Texas is open to co-visitation, I think it will happen.

Out of curiosity, what would stop someone holding plural memberships (where one GL allowed co-visitation) to visit PH Lodges in the "visiting" jurisdiction? Would this be considered a masonic offense for the original "non-visiting" jurisdiction?

MIke Oswalt
01-16-2008, 00:10
I respectfully understand what you are saying. But, FWIW it seems most brothers are under the impression that there are Prince Hall (3 letter) and Mainstream (4 letter).

I just want those who think that all lodges are segregated to know that there are options if they are truly interested in a non-segregated lodge. I know first hand that U.M.W. Scottish Rite Grand Lodge, A.F. & A.M. of Texas, Inc. although being mostly of black brothers, makes no distinction or requirement of race. Furthermore race is not discussed or joked about. Therefore, there is no distinction of Prince Hall Vs. "Mainstream."