Firearm as a gift (North Carolina) [Archive] - Glock Talk

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MCPreacher
11-22-2007, 19:57
After searching the NC Statutes, I didn't find anything directly relating to giving a firearm as a gift to an eligible recipient.

I want to buy my son a house gun, specifically, a 12ga coach gun. I showed him mine tonight and he liked it, doesn't currently own any firearms and I thought it would be a cool christmas gift.

Anyone know the legality of a transfer like that?

modrace
11-24-2007, 10:19
As far as I know as long as the person is legally allowed to own a firearm there is no problem. Being a long gun there should be no issues whatsoever. As for pistols I believe the its the same, the permit is only required to purchase a handgun, not own or posess one. Please verify this information if possible. I know a few police dispatchers, Ill ask them to try to get more direct information.

WolfiePacker
11-24-2007, 17:59
Correct, as long as you know the person can legally purchase that weapon you are good to go. Personally I like to have knowledge that they have in their possession a pistol purchase permit or CCW just for legality sake.

Skydivn Shooter
11-26-2007, 21:31
As far as I know as long as the person is legally allowed to own a firearm there is no problem. Being a long gun there should be no issues whatsoever. As for pistols I believe the its the same, the permit is only required to purchase a handgun, not own or posess one. Please verify this information if possible. I know a few police dispatchers, Ill ask them to try to get more direct information.

The NC General Statutes are very specific about the requirement for the recipient of a handgun to have a valid pistol permit or CCP, even in the event of inheritance:

Under North Carolina law, it is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to sell, give away, transfer, purchase, or receive, at any place in the state, any pistol, unless the purchaser or receiver has first obtained a license or permit to receive such a pistol by the sheriff of the county where the purchaser or receiver resides, or the purchaser or receiver possesses a valid North Carolina-issued concealed carry permit. This requirement to obtain a permit prior to the transfer of a pistol applies not only to a commercial transaction, typically at a sporting goods store, but also between private individuals or companies throughout North Carolina. N.C. Gen. Stat. 14-402(a)

In addition, this State law has been interpreted to require that a pistol permit be obtained by the receiver of a handgun when such person inherits a pistol as a result of the death of another person. The permit should be given to and retained by the seller or donor of the handgun. In such a case, the permit should be given to the executor or receiver of the estate of the deceased person. If the purchaser or receiver uses a North Carolina- issued concealed carry permit for the transfer, the seller should reference such permit on a bill of sale.

The law is not as restrictive for long gun transfers. MCPreacher's phrase "eligible recipient" is key.

Hantra
11-30-2007, 17:22
The problem I see is when you fill out your 4473 form. You actually have to declare that you are purchasing the firearm for yourself. I guess you could put NO there, and see what happened. Or you could just buy it for yourself. And if you decide to give it later, that's cool. But purchasing FOR someone, even as a gift, would mean that you have to lie on your 4473. Pretty sure that's a felony.

Bosko
12-02-2007, 04:06
The gun store were my wife works and where I teach has only been open for four months. Given that, we accept the fact that we are probably "under the eye" of ATF Compliance (not the criminal investigators). The store owner has decided to err on the side of caution. If the prospective purchaser of a handgun is intemperate enough to mention that he/she wants to buy a particular handgun for someone else, e. g. a gift for a family member, friend, etc., he/she is advised to have the intended recipient present a Sheriff's Permit to Acquire a Weapon or a Concealed Handgun Permit and complete a Form 4473. I am sure we have lost some sales because of this policy, but one cannot be too careful these days. Answering NO to question number one on the 4473 will void the sale.

dmarker
12-21-2007, 18:51
And the loophole is:

You can let someone borrow - as in temporary - a pistol (that person being say 20), but you cannot give it away permently to that person - which requires a permit as it is a transfer.

There is nothing in state law requiring you to be 21 to own and use a handgun. Where they get you is requiring the person to get a pistol permit for ownership/transfer - and requiring you to be 21 to get a permit.

It is perfectly legal to let your son borrow say a pistol to take to the range or to use in his apartment. I had a long discussion with a state AG, SBI employee, and BATF employee over this loophole. They all suggested that it would be prudent to give your son a written and signed letter to put in his wallet with telephone number in case he is stopped and question.

MCPreacher
12-21-2007, 19:05
And the loophole is:

It is perfectly legal to let your son borrow say a pistol to take to the range or to use in his apartment. I had a long discussion with a state AG, SBI employee, and BATF employee over this loophole. They all suggested that it would be prudent to give your son a written and signed letter to put in his wallet with telephone number in case he is stopped and question.

That's all fine and good, but what he is getting is MY 12ga coach gun and I will just buy a new one for myself. That way all the bases are covered.

Bogey
12-23-2007, 15:16
We aren't talking pistols here.....it's shotguns.

If it's family (your son) you can legally "sell/transfer" it to him without need of a permit. He MUST be legally able to possess a firearm though.

Magicmanmb
12-23-2007, 15:33
Personally I'd give him a bill of sale and put down that he bought it for $1.00 or whatever amount you want. As long as it's not a pistol and he's over 18 and eligble otherwise to purchase. That way it would be techically legal under federal and state law.

obxemt
12-27-2007, 16:51
There is no prohibition whatsoever in giving any firearm (not class III, obviously) as a gift in North Carolina as long as the giver and receiver are both residents of North Carolina. The 4473 question is referring solely to straw purchases, not gift-giving.

The gun store I used to frequent in NC gave me a hard time about it once until I got extremely pissed off and said "so if I want to buy a friggin' gun for my wife, you're telling me you won't sell it to me?" The owner responded quickly, "oh no, that's different for a close family relation."

If it is a true gift from father to son and he can legally possess it (as mentioned above) then it is not an issue. As far as having a bill of sale in case he is "stopped and questioned" that just silly. If you are legally in possession of a firearm that is yours and get stopped, you don't have to "prove" ownership. If it is given as a gift, he is the owner and doesn't have to prove anything, if by some slim chance there is actually an investigation surrounding a legally possessed gun by a person who can legally possess it! :)

obxemt
12-27-2007, 16:57
http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm

"A person purchasing a firearm as a gift is considered
the actual purchaser of a firearm (See
Instruction 1, ATF F 4473)."

Magicmanmb
12-28-2007, 08:12
The reason I suggested a bill of sale on any firearms transaction is that, your name was on the 4473 to start with if it should end up stolen at some point you have some back up to CYA. I even did that when I built a custom race gun for my M.D.

obxemt
12-28-2007, 08:33
Back-up/CYA for WHAT? I guess I understand it for a sale even though it is not required, but not a gift.

- If someone received a gun as a gift and it was stolen, they are under no obligation to prove where or how they got it when they are reporting it stolen. It was legally obtained and possessed before some loser thief took it.

- If you sell or give away a firearm, the person who OWNS it will be reporting it stolen, so there is not much reason to "CYA" because the current owner legally possessed and purchased it. It will be entered NCIC as a stolen firearm as long as the owner reports it,
so the original purchaser's information on the 4473 is largely irrelevant, unless for some strange reason ATF thinks it was a straw. What are the chances that you are going to be questioned about a gun you legally sold to someone who could legally purchase and possess it?

If it is used in a crime, it will come up as being stolen from the owner, not the original buyer. There is a "trace" form to submit to the ATF on recovered firearms, but the only illegality lies with the jackass who stole it.

I was a cop for 7 years and maybe I'm giving LE/ATF too much credit. So, what the hell am I trying to say? I don't know. :) The bill of sale is a good idea for the buyer and the purchaser's personal records, but I can't really see it coming up in an investigation of a stolen firearm which was legally bought and sold. Maybe I'm not paranoid enough! :supergrin:

Magicmanmb
12-28-2007, 09:22
Since my wife purchased a colt detective special about a month ago and, I was also asked for my ID (luckily I had CCW with me) I've found at least down here most dealers are assuming everything is a straw purchase since the Bloomberg suit. My wife purchased an AR-15 for me as a Christmas present and if the dealer and I hadn't done a lot of business over the years he would have refused the sale because he knew it was for a present. After spending a number of years in LE and managing a department store that was an ffl I know what jerks ATF can be. Also with a bill of sale you have a record of serial # etc. so it can be entered NCIC. Locally to get a stolen firearm entered into NCIC it takes an act of God. They would prefer to wait until it's recovered then work backwards from there.

Perhaps I need to adjust the tinfoil hat but I don't trust the government any further than I can throw the capitol. Since I'm waiting on a pistol that was stolen 5 years ago, recovered by Detroit PD 3 years ago, case ajudicated 3 years ago and still don't have my pistol back. I still say no matter who or what get and give a bill of sale even if it's not required. Just my opinion. Also when your dealer goes out of business or otherwise closes the 4473's go into a database with ATF. So I would still want to be able to prove how I disposed of anything I ever purchased and papered

spober
12-28-2007, 13:51
if the intent of the permit is to verify someones legality to own said handgun in nc then why cant you buy more than one gun at the same time on the same permit? surly the measly 5-10 bucks per permit isnt the reason.

obxemt
12-28-2007, 14:02
Perhaps I need to adjust the tinfoil hat but I don't trust the government any further than I can throw the capitol.

Lol, point taken. :rofl:

if the intent of the permit is to verify someones legality to own said handgun in nc then why cant you buy more than one gun at the same time on the same permit? surly the measly 5-10 bucks per permit isnt the reason.

At least they had the common sense to let us buy on our CCW instead of those silly permits!

MCPreacher
12-28-2007, 14:05
Lol, point taken. :rofl:



At least they had the common sense to let us buy on our CCW instead of those silly permits!

AMEN to that! I love that aspect of the CCW... walk in, pay money, walk out, no sweat.

Glocks&Ducs
12-31-2007, 23:44
There is no prohibition whatsoever in giving any firearm (not class III, obviously) as a gift in North Carolina as long as the giver and receiver are both residents of North Carolina....


This is not an accurate statement. Although it doesn't apply in the situation that the OP asked about. If a handgun is sold, traded, or gifted in the state, the person receiving the handgun must get a permit from their local sheriff unless they possess a valid CHP. If the CHP is the method used to verify the person is qualified to receive said handgun, you are supposed to keep a bill of sale with that persons CHP license number on it.

Bosko
01-01-2008, 03:49
Transfers of handguns between private parties is not yet regulated by the federal government (Form 4473). It is regulated by state law, NCGS 14-402(a), as previously reported here. Of course, we all see this state law violated in the parking lot of every gun show we attend. The anti-gunners point to this in their ongoing efforts to make a Form 4473 mandatory on every handgun transfer. When I take a handgun to a gun show to sell or trade, it is always accompanied by a blank Bill of Sale on which I am able to record the receipt of a Sheriff's permit or the buyers FFL or Concealed Handgun Permit number. I want to know to whom I am transferring a handgun, just as I would want to know from whom I am acquiring a handgun. I have missed out on more than a few sales this way but I would rather err on the side of caution.

obxemt
01-01-2008, 05:58
If a handgun is gifted in the state, the person receiving the handgun must get a permit from their local sheriff unless they possess a valid CHP.

If I'm wrong on that, I'd like to see your source for that information (I'm not being ugly, I'm truly curious and if I'm wrong would like to be corrected).

Bosko
01-01-2008, 08:19
http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm

"A person purchasing a firearm as a gift is considered
the actual purchaser of a firearm (See
Instruction 1, ATF F 4473)."

Thanks for setting me straight on Important Notice 1 on the Form 4473. I brought this to the attention of the owner of the gun store where my wife works and I teach. He sends his appreciation.

Bosko
01-01-2008, 08:29
If I'm wrong on that, I'd like to see your source for that information (I'm not being ugly, I'm truly curious and if I'm wrong would like to be corrected).

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-402.html

"give away"

Glocks&Ducs
01-01-2008, 09:22
If I'm wrong on that, I'd like to see your source for that information (I'm not being ugly, I'm truly curious and if I'm wrong would like to be corrected).


In addition to the reference cited by Bosko, this reference is pretty good compilation of the actual state statutes. I can't cite the actual sentences I want to, as either the website or the PDF program on my computer isn't working properly. But I'm surprised a cop of 7 years doesn't have a basic grasp of firearms laws in the state. Were you a cop in another state?


http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/ncfirearmslaws.pdf

obxemt
01-02-2008, 06:07
But I'm surprised a cop of 7 years doesn't have a basic grasp of firearms laws in the state.

That was completely uncalled for and unnecessary. Don't think it is safe to base your assessment of someone's knowledge on a single internet thread.

I didn't realize NC required more than the ATF, and frankly, I find that kind of silly, but I could have done without the insult.

Glocks&Ducs
01-02-2008, 06:19
That was completely uncalled for and unnecessary. Don't think it is safe to base your assessment of someone's knowledge on a single internet thread.

I didn't realize NC required more than the ATF, and frankly, I find that kind of silly, but I could have done without the insult.

I'm sorry you are insulted. But your lack of knowledge is readily apparent to anyone that has read the thread. That is all it takes is one high and mighty statement to prove you don't know what you are talking about. Some things to consider:

The third post in this thread had already provided the correct information that you went on to contradict, then asked me to cite a reference for.

When it comes to the law, it doesn't matter what you realize or think is silly.

I was simply correcting bum scoop.

Magicmanmb
01-02-2008, 08:29
BTW I posted a bill of sale I had my lawyer draw up several months ago its off the board now but if anyone wants a copy send me an e-mail or PM I'll send you a copy. Not going to post it again as I was flamed about a dozen times usual quote was if the guy has the money that's good enough for me.

obxemt
01-02-2008, 12:09
I'm sorry you are insulted. But your lack of knowledge is readily apparent to anyone that has read the thread. That is all it takes is one high and mighty statement to prove you don't know what you are talking about. Some things to consider:

The third post in this thread had already provided the correct information that you went on to contradict, then asked me to cite a reference for.

When it comes to the law, it doesn't matter what you realize or think is silly.

I was simply correcting bum scoop.

I asked for the info. legitimately, and you re-educated me. As soon as you posted it, I recalled reading the statute, I merely confused federal law with state statute. Have you ever made an error of recollection over something rarely dealt with? I just can't figure out why you're making it so personal and attacking me about it.

When it comes to enforcement, it absolutely DOES matter what I think is silly or appropriate. That's the lovely part of discretion! That particular part of that particular statute would likely never concern or be enforced by a patrol officer.

Furthermore, I admitted my error, and told twice why I made it. So, speaking of "high and mighty," go ahead and climb down off your high horse and get over it.

Bosko
01-02-2008, 20:29
Gentlemen Please, We are all in this this thing together.