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capnjim01
12-05-2007, 19:07
I'm watching the news about the shooting in Nebraska and I wonder is there an official no gun allowed sign in North Carolina? The local mall has a sign that just says No Guns. It's probably about 8"X8" is this an official sign or can I just ignore it?

dp509
12-05-2007, 19:11
Just caught a clip where there was another mall shooting with eight dead plus the gunman. It was over before Law Enforcement arrived.

I am a police officer, but the way things are going.....I would carry descretely with an extra mag or two....when it hits the fan you can really burn through ammo.

STAY SAFE !!!!!

Hef
12-05-2007, 21:34
I've seen lots of "no gun" signs that don't meet SC statutory requirements. I grin every time I walk by and ignore them. :supergrin:

NC Bullseye
12-06-2007, 00:19
North Carolina does not specify any "Official" sign, the only stipulation is that it be prominently displayed at the entrances. So if you can see it, it's valid and you can't legally carry there.

capnjim01
12-06-2007, 11:45
Ok I drove around the Mall today there is only one sign displayed at one entrance. There are probably a dozen other entrances that have no sign at all so if I go in one of these I didn't see a no gun sign so is this a technicallity or do they need to put one at each entrance?

M4inCA
12-06-2007, 12:30
Please tell me you don't sincerely think these signs would have prevented this tragedy...

capnjim01
12-06-2007, 13:44
Please tell me you don't sincerely think these signs would have prevented this tragedy...

Of Course not. I was just trying to find out if every entrance has to be posted to prohibit concealed carry in the local mall.

RUReady
12-06-2007, 18:20
So, who would carry in a mall that is marked as a "No carry" zone?

arj
12-06-2007, 22:46
my wife used to work at American Eagle at nights, she would not get out until 11-12 at night and i would always be waiting outside the store with the Bersa in my IWH. I care more about my wife than i do a $2 sign.

NC Bullseye
12-06-2007, 23:36
Whew, tough crowd. The OP was just asking if all entrances have to be posted. I'll answer the question with a question. If you only used the non-marked entrances then how could you be expected to know that carry was prohibited? I have seen some stores that are posted but the rest of the mall wasn't. I understand this to mean that this store is posted, not the entire mall. Now if it was on a mall entrance, then the mall would be posted but the stores that have an outside entrance would each need their own sign. For those who disagree with the current CHP laws in NC, take the hour or so it would take to look up your legislative reps and do three things. Email them asking for change, write a real snail mail letter stating the same and then pick up the phone and verbally restate what you want them to do. They work for you. I do have one question for the OP, when did you take your CHP class and did they not cover the sign issues in class? If they didn't you didn't get your monies worth. You may want to read through the NC CHP laws just to CYA.

81jasonG23
12-06-2007, 23:57
be careful with those signs. In SC malls are fair game for CWP holders but we are told that if they have any sign up whether or not it meets the legal requirements (hand made or legal decal) not to push it. We were told that we would catch it in court. My theory...what they don't know wont hurt them...thats why its called "concealed" carry. :whistling:

stay safe this christmas

capnjim01
12-07-2007, 07:32
Whew, tough crowd. The OP was just asking if all entrances have to be posted. I'll answer the question with a question. If you only used the non-marked entrances then how could you be expected to know that carry was prohibited? I have seen some stores that are posted but the rest of the mall wasn't. I understand this to mean that this store is posted, not the entire mall. Now if it was on a mall entrance, then the mall would be posted but the stores that have an outside entrance would each need their own sign. For those who disagree with the current CHP laws in NC, take the hour or so it would take to look up your legislative reps and do three things. Email them asking for change, write a real snail mail letter stating the same and then pick up the phone and verbally restate what you want them to do. They work for you. I do have one question for the OP, when did you take your CHP class and did they not cover the sign issues in class? If they didn't you didn't get your monies worth. You may want to read through the NC CHP laws just to CYA.
I took my class 6 months ago, they did go over the signs quickly the instructors attitude is that it is a misdomeanor(sp) and a $50.0 fine so to him it was worth the chance of getting caught.

RichardB
12-07-2007, 17:51
NC laws are link below. Were you not given a copy in your class?

http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/ncfirearmslaws.pdf

See top of their page 17.

You should assume that some malls/ businesses will now be on the lookout to publicly nail someone carrying illegally to show that they have adequate security at their site. The court's fine could be the easiest part of it.

Discussing a possibility of intent to violate the law in a wide open public forum is less than discrete. :shocked:

Glocks&Ducs
12-07-2007, 18:20
Whew, tough crowd. The OP was just asking if all entrances have to be posted. I'll answer the question with a question. If you only used the non-marked entrances then how could you be expected to know that carry was prohibited? I have seen some stores that are posted but the rest of the mall wasn't. I understand this to mean that this store is posted, not the entire mall. Now if it was on a mall entrance, then the mall would be posted but the stores that have an outside entrance would each need their own sign. For those who disagree with the current CHP laws in NC, take the hour or so it would take to look up your legislative reps and do three things. Email them asking for change, write a real snail mail letter stating the same and then pick up the phone and verbally restate what you want them to do. They work for you. I do have one question for the OP, when did you take your CHP class and did they not cover the sign issues in class? If they didn't you didn't get your monies worth. You may want to read through the NC CHP laws just to CYA.

Your logic is flawed. The Sears at the mall here is posted, but not some of the other stores entrances. I sent a letter to Sears explaining how stupid their policy is. They stated it wasn't their policy, it was the mall owners.

NC Bullseye
12-07-2007, 21:37
Your logic is flawed. The Sears at the mall here is posted, but not some of the other stores entrances. I sent a letter to Sears explaining how stupid their policy is. They stated it wasn't their policy, it was the mall owners.

And did you by chance send a letter to the mall owner to verify? It could be a simple case of Sears not wanting to explain or they complied, no questions asked where the other stores refused to comply. One way to verify is to check the doors into Sears from the mall, if they are posted why would the mall post there? Did you check ALL of the other possible entrances to that mall? Were they all posted? If they weren't, then the property is not "Conspicuously" posted per the requirements of the statues. Anyone entering a non marked entrance would not be in violation since the requirements of the statue are not met. I don't believe my logic is flawed in any way.

RUReady
12-08-2007, 05:46
NC laws are link below. Were you not given a copy in your class?

http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/ncfirearmslaws.pdf

See top of their page 17.

You should assume that some malls/ businesses will now be on the lookout to publicly nail someone carrying illegally to show that they have adequate security at their site. The court's fine could be the easiest part of it.

Discussing a possibility of intent to violate the law in a wide open public forum is less than discrete. :shocked:



Open and free discussion is one of the rights we enjoy. It's called Free Speech. Now, if it costs us to speak out then that's one of the costs of living free. I have to laugh about the malls and businesses catching any damned thing. Yeah, those folks really are some cracker jack "security" experts alright. They can't even deal with teens, much less with anything else. Just another example of why I never frequent malls unless absolutely necessary.

The Pontificator
12-09-2007, 09:04
be careful with those signs. In SC malls are fair game for CWP holders but we are told that if they have any sign up whether or not it meets the legal requirements (hand made or legal decal) not to push it. We were told that we would catch it in court. My theory...what they don't know wont hurt them...thats why its called "concealed" carry. :whistling:

stay safe this christmas

"We were told."

By whom? Just because someone is a SC CWP instructor doesn't mean they know SC gun law. There are a lot of lousy CWP instructors out there including one who posts her own pawn shop against CWP. :upeyes:

You are not going to "catch it" in court. SC CWP law is very specific about signage. A business that has opted to post is either legally posted...or it isn't.

As far as "pushing" it goes what is being said is this: if you open your big mouth to a retailer that has signage which is non-compliant with state law he then has the right to tell you to leave. That, and would you like to have the retailer then go and find out how to legally post? :upeyes:

81jasonG23
12-09-2007, 15:22
"We were told."

By whom? Just because someone is a SC CWP instructor doesn't mean they know SC gun law. There are a lot of lousy CWP instructors out there including one who posts her own pawn shop against CWP. :upeyes:

You are not going to "catch it" in court. SC CWP law is very specific about signage. A business that has opted to post is either legally posted...or it isn't.

As far as "pushing" it goes what is being said is this: if you open your big mouth to a retailer that has signage which is non-compliant with state law he then has the right to tell you to leave. That, and would you like to have the retailer then go and find out how to legally post? :upeyes:

My CWP instructor was friend and SC Judge Charlie Garrett, the co-instructor was Retired SLED (SC law enforcement officer) Sam Clark. I think that they know what they are talking about. About signage...walmart does not post any signs...if they know that you are carrying they will ask you to leave under escort...I know this b/c it has happened to me. (I reached up for something and it exposed the muzzle of the gun under my shirt) I talked to Judge Garrett and he told me that it is best not to carry if asked to remove it. Lawyers will find a way to beat it, and there are plenty hate gun owners. My apologies to you since you seem to be another "expert" on GLock talk who knows all and tells all. From reading our two comments I would bet that if any of us has a big mouth it would not be me.

Hef
12-09-2007, 18:35
be careful with those signs. In SC malls are fair game for CWP holders but we are told that if they have any sign up whether or not it meets the legal requirements (hand made or legal decal) not to push it. We were told that we would catch it in court. My theory...what they don't know wont hurt them...thats why its called "concealed" carry. :whistling:

stay safe this christmas

South Carolina statutes clearly define what criteria a sign must meet to be legally compelling. "Any sign" is not legally enforceable; it must meet specific requirements, or it may lawfully be ignored by CWP holders.

There is no gray area whatsoever. I have carried many times in buildings that were posted with signs that were not legal, and I grinned every time I walked by them.

Hef
12-09-2007, 18:43
My CWP instructor was friend and SC Judge Charlie Garrett, the co-instructor was Retired SLED (SC law enforcement officer) Sam Clark. I think that they know what they are talking about. About signage...walmart does not post any signs...if they know that you are carrying they will ask you to leave under escort...I know this b/c it has happened to me. (I reached up for something and it exposed the muzzle of the gun under my shirt) I talked to Judge Garrett and he told me that it is best not to carry if asked to remove it. Lawyers will find a way to beat it, and there are plenty hate gun owners. My apologies to you since you seem to be another "expert" on GLock talk who knows all and tells all. From reading our two comments I would bet that if any of us has a big mouth it would not be me.

Print off a couple copies of the following quote and hand them to Judge Garrett and Mr. Clark, as they need a little refresher on SC statutes. The fact that they hold/held positions of authority doesn't mean they can't be utterly wrong about the law.

SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements. [SC ST SEC 23-31-235]

(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.

(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

(1) clearly visible from outside the building;

(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

(3) contain the words "NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED" in black one-inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty-five degree angle from the horizontal;

(5) a diameter of a circle; and

(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building's entrance door.

(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

(1) thirty-six inches wide by forty-eight inches tall in size;

(2) contain the words "NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED" in black three- inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty-four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty-five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety-six inches above the ground;

(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.

Hef
12-09-2007, 19:02
This, if posted properly and at the correct scale, could be a legally compelling sign:

***edited***

TimP
12-13-2007, 12:27
What Sign?

Fingolfin
12-13-2007, 14:44
Yes to be legally compliant in South Carolina the sign must meet ALL the criteria listed above. Otherwise the enforcement of non-compliant signs is somewhat questionable, it's my understanding that a non-compliant sign only denotes store or business policy such as those that would prohibit customers from entering without shoes. It's possible you could be prosecuted or sued for violating that policy, but not for violating CWP carry restrictions.

So yes, however unlikely somebody could go on a crusade against you for carrying in a place even if they have a non-compliant sign, they just can't get you on the basis that you violated your CWP privileges. Of course someone can file a lawsuit against you for just about anything, so I don't see how it would be different other than politically incorrect subject matter of concealed firearms. I believe this is probably what the a poster above meant by not "pushing it" when it comes to CWP restrictions versus store policy restrictions. It's my opinion that if they are seriously against government authorized citizens from carrying in their business, they should use the proper sign.

Glockrunner
12-13-2007, 16:12
My CWP instructor was friend and SC Judge Charlie Garrett, the co-instructor was Retired SLED (SC law enforcement officer) Sam Clark. I think that they know what they are talking about. About signage...walmart does not post any signs...if they know that you are carrying they will ask you to leave under escort...I know this b/c it has happened to me. (I reached up for something and it exposed the muzzle of the gun under my shirt) I talked to Judge Garrett and he told me that it is best not to carry if asked to remove it. Lawyers will find a way to beat it, and there are plenty hate gun owners. My apologies to you since you seem to be another "expert" on GLock talk who knows all and tells all. From reading our two comments I would bet that if any of us has a big mouth it would not be me.

From: Not an Expert on Glock Talk, South Carolina
To: People in Receipt of CWP issued in SC

Subject: The Law Pertaining to CWP in the State Of South Carolina

Read it and heed it. It has been hammered out with your best interest in mind. (Well, until GrassRoots SC can get it all to go away)

Don't pay no never mind at all to what anyone tells you, unless they are your lawyer, or the judge you're standing in front of.

Furthermore, join GrassRootsSC and help in the effort. You'll learn more about the law pertaining to CWP and meet good folks just like The Pontificator and me.
http://www.scfirearms.org/
We could certainly use your help and help educate you too.