NOVA: Concealed carry at grocery stores?

[Diokan]

I've been wondering this for awhile. There are a few grocery stores in No.Va. that are more like grocery stores on steroids. Wegmans and Whole Foods come to mind. Whole Foods has eating areas inside and sell beer and wine for on premises consumption. That has meant, in my mind, that CC is not permitted there under VA Code 18.2-308 [J3] (restaurant ban).

Wegman's on the other hand does not sell beer/wine for on-premises consumption, or so I thought. Looking at the VA ABC website, it appears that Wegmans has an active license (License 35598) for "Wine and Beer On & Off Premises & Keg Permit".

So am I correct in assuming that CC is prohibited there as well? This restaurant ban is such a pain.... :brickwall:


http://www.abc.virginia.gov/licenseeSearch/jsp/controller.jsp

[Bonk]

You are correct. If you can walk in, order a single-serving alcoholic beverage and legally sit there and drink it without leaving the store, you can't carry there.

I'm not familiar with either store, but if I were in your shoes I would vote with my wallet and go to Giant or Safeway instead. Gourmet groceries aren't worth my safety.

[Diokan]

And that's the interesting thing. I don't think you can go into Wegmans and get sit down and drink a beer or a glass of wine. They do sometimes have wine tasting at the stores, but I believe that is a different type of permit (Tasting License). It's possible they went with the beer/wine license to allow them to have tastings on a regular basis without having to pay a daily license fee.

But what's really funny is that according to the VA ABC website, the type of license Wegman's has, is restricted for grocery stores.....It says it's for:

"Grocery stores only in a rural areas. Must be substantial public demand for public convenience." http://www.abc.state.va.us/licensing/liccost.htm

Um...If Wegmans is in a rural area, then I'm a duck with a computer.

[longwatch2k1]

Looks like CCW in Wegmans is prohibited. It has a restaurant license. OC is your only legal option to be armed.


License Trade Name Company Name Establishment Type Establishment Sub-Type Wine and Beer Status Mixed Beverage Status
35598 Wegmans Wegmans Food Markets Inc Restaurant Non-Government Property Active
35599 Wegmans Wegmans Food Markets Inc Restaurant Withdrawn Withdrawn

[vafish]

Looks like CCW in Wegmans is prohibited. It has a restaurant license. OC is your only legal option to be armed.


License Trade Name Company Name Establishment Type Establishment Sub-Type Wine and Beer Status Mixed Beverage Status
35598 Wegmans Wegmans Food Markets Inc Restaurant Non-Government Property Active
35599 Wegmans Wegmans Food Markets Inc Restaurant Withdrawn Withdrawn

That's one of the problems with the current law.

I had no idea that Wegmans had a license to serve alcohol on premises. I've carried their numerous times.

I also carried into a Whole Foods and walked past the wine bar and figured I needed to leave.

[longwatch2k1]

No the real problem is that of the 135,000 plus VA CHP holders, only a tiny fraction are willing to do anything about it.

[KONY]

If you have little ones, you might want to check on your local VA ABC license status of your local Chuck E. Cheese before heading over ... you might be surprised! :shocked:

[Diokan]

I reviewed the list of Fairfax County licensees last night. On the list are a few golf courses, country clubs, retirement homes and the North building at the Dulles Expo center (and of course the Wegmans and Whole Foods I mentioned above). Other than that, it looks like standard restaurants. We have got to get this ridiculous law changed.

[Mr. Slithers]

I reviewed the list of Fairfax County licensees last night. On the list are a few golf courses, country clubs, retirement homes and the North building at the Dulles Expo center (and of course the Wegmans and Whole Foods I mentioned above). Other than that, it looks like standard restaurants. We have got to get this ridiculous law changed.

and the south hall has beer. the cafe has a lic. to sell.

[TheEggman]

You see some restaurants in malls, airports and other public places with roped off areas that say ...

"Alcoholic Beverages Prohibited Beyond This Point"

That's because that's the extent of the license.

If you get a beer in Wegmans are you allowed to take it with you anywhere in the store, or is consumption limited to a specific area? If so, that's the extent of the license.

BTAICBW

[Diokan]

You see some restaurants in malls, airports and other public places with roped off areas that say ...

"Alcoholic Beverages Prohibited Beyond This Point"

That's because that's the extent of the license.

If you get a beer in Wegmans are you allowed to take it with you anywhere in the store, or is consumption limited to a specific area? If so, that's the extent of the license.

BTAICBW

Interesting point. Do you know of any places like that other than the airport? I'd like to look at their license and see if there's something distinctive about it.

[DragonRider]

Both the Wegmans stores in Dulles and in Fairfax Corner are posted with signs saying alcohol purchased may NOT be consumed in the store. Red background with white lettering, at the Dulles store, it is near the stairway to the tables on the 2nd floor. I'll take a pic this weekend if/when I go.

John

[DragonRider]

Here ya go. Had the color wrong, but location was right. This sign is posted at the Dulles location, next to the elevator, across from the stairs heading to the 2nd level where the eating area is.

John

[jamesriver]

I was in the Fairfax Wegman's once and they were handing out free thimble-sized glasses of wine. Another time they were giving out free bottles of beer that you could drink in the store (it was some new beer with lime flavoring in it that whoever made it must have been promoting). Maybe it's for stuff like this that they have that particular license.

[Navy87Guy]

You are correct. If you can walk in, order a single-serving alcoholic beverage and legally sit there and drink it without leaving the store, you can't carry there.

I'm not familiar with either store, but if I were in your shoes I would vote with my wallet and go to Giant or Safeway instead. Gourmet groceries aren't worth my safety.

I'm not so sure...
Here's what Section 308-J3 says ("Restaurant ban"):
J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

Here's what they define as a restaurant:
"Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold.

"Restaurant" means, for a mixed beverage license other than a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, an established place of business (i) where meals with substantial entrees are regularly sold and (ii) which has adequate facilities and sufficient employees for cooking, preparing, and serving such meals for consumption at tables in dining areas on the premises, and includes establishments specializing in full course meals with a single substantial entree.

Here's what a "club" is defined as:
"Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members.

So that is not the same thing as a bar (the profit motive makes the difference). Interestingly, the term "bar" is not covered in the Code list of definitions.

If Wegman's doesn't fit the definition of a "restaurant" (regardless of the type of license they have), then the restaurant ban shouldn't apply.

Now...is it worth a felony charge to see if the cops read the law the same way? Not to me....

Jim

[Diokan]

If Wegman's doesn't fit the definition of a "restaurant" (regardless of the type of license they have), then the restaurant ban shouldn't apply.

Now...is it worth a felony charge to see if the cops read the law the same way? Not to me....

Jim


Ok, I was there tonight (Fairfax location) and kept my eyes open for any alcohol sold for on premises consumption. They do have a fish place near the raw fish case. It's like a small sit down place where you can have some fresh fish cooked up and eat it right there. They have just begun to sell beer and wine there to consume while you're eating.

That probably solves why they got the license. The question I have is, how far does that license extend? To the parking lot?

By the way, the restaurant repeal legislation will be heard tomorrow. The VCDL has an e-mail your legislator application up that you can use to make your opinion known. Hopefully, we can get rid of this stupid restaurant ban.


http://tinyurl.com/ynnsm2

[TheEggman]

"So that is not the same thing as a bar (the profit motive makes the difference). Interestingly, the term "bar" is not covered in the Code list of definitions."


Factoid: Technically, there are no 'Bars' in VA. (there may be one or two somewhere, covered by a Grandfather clause, but I don't think so.) so the term wouldn't be covered. Establishments that serve alcohol must obtain a specific percentage of their revenue from food sales.

In-Store wine tastings may also be conducted, under specific conditions, without an on-premise license.

[Tweek's Turbos]

I'm calling wegmans dulles now, and will talk to Phil Q. next time I see him.

The guy at the wine shop in the store says you may only drink the wine in the little wine bar nook they have.

[Fungunner]

IIR, I seem have noted some local grocery stores, Giant comes to mind, possibly Shoppers, that had a sticker or decal at or near the entry, declaring their desire not to have guns inside the store. Similar to many of the malls.

[Tweek's Turbos]

I haven't seen it at Wegmans.