Newer carbines outperform M4 in dust test [Archive] - Glock Talk

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BrokenArrow
12-17-2007, 14:33
Newer carbines outperform M4 in dust test

"The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat, finished last in a recent “extreme dust test” to demonstrate the M4’s reliability compared to three newer carbines."

About 4-7 times as many stoppages as the XM8, HK416, MK16 SCAR Light.

Army Times article:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/

Army press release:

Army tests carbines for the third time in extreme dust
Dec 17, 2007

Recently Army testing laboratories at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland,
subjected the M4 carbine and three other weapons to a severe environmental
test called the "Carbine Extreme Dust Test." The lab environment allowed
engineers to push the weapons beyond their technical limits to better inform
and understand what is required for the most capable weapons on the current
battlefield. This was the third such test for the Army's carbine of choice,
the M4.

The weapons were exposed to "heavy dusting," similar to an intense and
sustained dust storm, several times for 25 hours. There were ten weapons of
each of the four different types of carbines. Each fired 6,000 rounds
(60,000 rounds per type). Individually, each weapon fired fifty 120 round
cycles with minimal cleaning and lubrication (wiped and lubed every 600
rounds; fully cleaned after every 1,200 rounds). The maintenance performed
during the test was the equivalent to not performing even minimal cleaning
of the weapon until after firing nearly three basic loads of ammunition (a
Soldier's basic load is 210 rounds).

The Army noted all the weapons in the test performed well: the number of
stoppages all the carbines exhibited was roughly one percent or less of the
total rounds fired by each, meaning the weapons had over a 98% reliability
rate under these unique conditions. Though the M4 performed exceptionally
well, it came in fourth compared to the other three carbines in this
particular extreme single-environment (dust as the only condition) testing.
The Army is taking these test results seriously. These preliminary results
revealed or confirmed several areas for potential materiel improvements to
the M4 and the other weapon types in the test. A full analysis of the test
data is expected in several weeks, and the Army will evaluate those areas
that can be improved.

The M4 in particular is a weapon subjected to intense scrutiny and remains
one of the most improved pieces of Army equipment: there have been over
390 improvements since it was introduced into the force. But it has become
one of the most popular weapons in the Army inventory: every post-combat
survey taken in the last several years shows an almost 90% approval rating
for the M4 among Soldiers. Official requests and "operational needs statements"
from the combat zones show the M4 as the weapon of choice for its size, weight,
versatility and performance.

Soldiers shared their comments about the M4 in recent surveys. "The M4 was
an extremely dependable weapon system," writes a 10th Mountain Division
(Light Infantry) command sergeant major who served in Afghanistan. "We
operated at extreme elevations (10,000 feet) along with extreme climate
changes from one end of the spectrum to the other. I cannot remember any
occasions where an M4 malfunctioned or failed to perform."

A 10th Mountain first sergeant writes "Of all the weapons that I have fired
in the Army, I like the M4 best."

Similar comments come from other Army divisions. "The 101st has no issues
with the M4 and, as a matter of fact the Soldiers of all MOS's to include
cooks, mechanics, administrative clerks and nurses are getting very
proficient with the M4," writes a 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)
command sergeant major.

"While I am confident in the reliability, accuracy and effectiveness of the
M4 in today's fight because of what Soldiers tell us, we're never satisfied
with good enough," said General Dick Cody, the Army's Vice Chief of Staff.
"We will look at the test results when they are complete and assess any
needed adjustments to the M4. We will also determine if our requirements
need to change for this weapon."

"The Soldier in the field is our number one priority," Secretary of the Army
Pete Geren said. "And that means testing our equipment to the highest of
standards so that we can understand and improve their performance in the
harshest of conditions. Our commitment is to continue to field the best
equipped and best trained fighting force in
the world."

RMTactical
12-17-2007, 16:00
Armytimes? :upeyes:

I wonder what kind of good articles the Enquirer has this week too... :rofl:

BrokenArrow
12-17-2007, 16:15
Army testing laboratories at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland aint the Enquirer, but I know what ya mean.

Didn't they tell us the 9 outperformed the 45, and the 5.56 the 7.62, the M9 the M1911A1, the M16 the M14... ;)

RMTactical
12-17-2007, 17:23
They've said a lot of things, but I have never heard them speak a bad word about HK...

Akita
12-17-2007, 17:27
Been reading this kinda thing from those 'in the know' for a couple of decades now. Funny how we still shoot the M16.

solizone
12-17-2007, 23:42
I can't believe we still have a 50 years old standard issue rifles in our military. Our men and women in uniform deserve to get the best of the best to bring them back home. We need a new rifle. No offesne to the M16, it's a great weapon system but it's more then 50 years old and there are better things out there.

Big Sky
12-17-2007, 23:53
For the cost I see no reason to replace the M4 5.56mm as general issue scrap the 20" btw. I've seen a 10.5" AR with 5,000 rounds through it without a malfunction or cleaning with just a bunch of slip. The Magpul Masada is of interest but HK can shove it.

RMTactical
12-18-2007, 01:03
I can't believe we still have a 50 years old standard issue rifles in our military. Our men and women in uniform deserve to get the best of the best to bring them back home. We need a new rifle. No offesne to the M16, it's a great weapon system but it's more then 50 years old and there are better things out there.

The Ma deuce is about 100 years old. Time to replace it?

The B52 is older than the M16 too...

MrMurphy
12-18-2007, 04:02
Yup.


The M2 .50 BMG was first really introduced about 1921. Still around.

The 1911 obviously came out in 1911, and is still in limited use.

Pump combat shotguns have not drastically changed since the Winchester Model 12 (1912 if I remember right) and we're still using the same basic Remington 870 (early 50s) and Mossberg 500 (early 60s) designs for the most part.

The M203 hasn't changed, essentially, since it's inception in the early 70s I believe it was.

We still have some M113s driving around out there apparently (as of the 2003 invasion at least) that were made for Vietnam and we still have B52s, KC135 tankers and other aircraft made when Eisenhower and Kennedy were President still flying. In the case of the 135s, every day....

Technology reaches plateaus. Flintlock muskets did not change in any real manner for nearly 2 centuries.

ERASER
12-18-2007, 11:35
And the ubiquitous AK-47 isn't going away anytime soon.

CatsMeow
12-18-2007, 19:27
Are the B-52s and KC-135s the active-duty USAF aircraft who are remarkable in that often they are older than the pilots flying them?

solizone
12-18-2007, 19:45
True about the Browling M2 .50 and the AC-130 and etc. AR's are reliable like someone said, more then 10,000 rounds and still work but over there it's abuse and abuse and abuse to those weapons and they probably have to clean it more then they shoot it.

KinderGlocken
12-19-2007, 10:37
Let's not forget the C-130 it has been in service for almost 60 years. That is one hell of a plane! I would hate see a 130 gunship flying over me if I was a bad guy.

Skintop911
12-19-2007, 12:46
Are the B-52s and KC-135s the active-duty USAF aircraft who are remarkable in that often they are older than the pilots flying them?

There was an article in the AF Times about a family with three generations flying the same type (BUFF, I think). Grandpa flew when the airframe was relatively new, and the grandson wasn't long out of UPT.

Age isn't everything.

MrMurphy
12-19-2007, 14:03
There's a general officer who flew a F-15C new. Then later in his career. Now his son (a captain, like the general was at the time) is flying the same plane.

BrokenArrow
12-19-2007, 14:10
Would not be surprised if their were/are Marines shooting the same 1911 frames as their gramps too. ;)

PlasticGuy
12-19-2007, 16:40
...Age isn't everything.
True, and I do love a good 1911. Still, there have been some legitimate complaints about the M4's. They may be a symptom of just having tens of thousands in front line use, or it may be that some newer designs may actually be better in some areas. Or not. That's why we test them.

I haven't been overly impressed with my AR-15's (and yes, I've owned three Colts). Of the guys I've talked to who came back from Iraqistan and bought rifles for their own use, roughly 2/3 bought a civilian version of their M4's, and roughly 1/3 wouldn't take one if it was offered to them for free. It's all a matter of who you ask.

variablebinary
12-19-2007, 18:58
Colt :steamed: :crying:

FN, HK, Robinson, LWRC, POF, LMT, Magpul :tongueout::supergrin:

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