Rail Road police authority in IN?

[Prometheus77]

A local guy here was hassled for OC by a pair of 'Canadian railroad police' in a gas station parking lot. It ended peacefully and everyone went their separate ways after apparent verbal abuse by one of the officers...

What kind of authority do RR police have in Indiana when they are off of railroad owned/controlled property?

FWIW: This is from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_police#Jurisdiction_and_authority
Jurisdiction and authority

Railroad police officers are certified law enforcement officers and carry full police and arrest powers. The appointment, commissioning and regulation of railroad police under Section 1704 of the U.S. Crime Control Act of 1990, provides that: "A railroad police officer who is certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of any one state shall, in accordance with the regulations issued by the U. S. Secretary of Transportation, be authorized to enforce the laws of any other state in which the rail carrier owns property."

It is important to note that Section 1704 also states that this police authority is to "the extent of the authority of a police officer certified or commissioned under the laws of that jurisdiction". While a railroad police officer may have general peace officer authority in some states such as California, they are may limited to the railroad's property in other states.

[rhino465]

If they're from Canada, I don't see why they would have any authority at all.

[geekboy]

Well, looks like you just posted what their authority would be. Rail Road Police are authorized to enforce the laws of any other state in which the rail carrier owns property. However, from the surface, it appears that the Candian (CN) Rail Road Police are not certified by any State that I know of... unless...

I can't go through the State laws, but almost all of them have codified a statute granting Rail Road Police the authority to exercise within this state all the powers of a special police officer, including the powers of arrest and the carrying of firearms. They can perform this duty anywhere that Rail Road owns property. For example, AMTRAK Police has relatively broad authority as they own property in many States.

Having said that, unless the CN (Rail Road) Police are commissioned by one of the States which comprises the United State of America, they are not commissioned to perform any police services in the United States. Unless that funky Bi-lateral Railroad thingy they did back in 1999 grants the Canadians any special authority (and vice versa) when it comes to the railroad.

If the gas station was adjoined to the railroad property or tracks, they could be watching him for piracy... although I haven't heard of "stagecoach" robberies these days. :) They are there to protect the property, equipment, passengers, cargo and any property on easements in and around the railroad tracks, switching equipment, yards, etc.

[geekboy]

And there you have it...

The CN Police Service today is an amalgamation in Canada of two railway police services, the CN Police and in 2005 the BC Rail Police. In the US the CN Police is an amalgamation of three US railway police services, Illinois Central Railroad Police, Grand Trunk Railway Police and Wisconsin Central Railway Police.

So CN Rail Road Police do have commissioned officers in the United States. So, they do have police powers. Depending on he State in which this occurred, they may have full police powers, or limited police powers.

http://www.cn.ca/about/community/rail_safety_community/cn_police/en_ComPoliceNetwork.shtml

Present across CN's Network
CN Police Officers are stationed in Canada's major urban centers, including Halifax, Moncton, Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, Windsor/Sarnia, Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Kamloops, and Vancouver. CN Police Officers are also stationed in the United States, in Detroit, Lansing, Chicago, Memphis, Jackson and New Orleans.

The mission of CN Police Officers, similarly to other police services, is to protect the peace, to prevent and eliminate crime, and to prosecute perpetrators of criminal acts against CN or its facilities.Emphasis added

And, for good measure, they have full law enforcement authority in Indiana...

IC 8-3-17-2
Commission; recordation; powers and duties

Sec. 2. (a) Every policeman appointed under this chapter shall, before entering upon the duties of office, take and subscribe an oath of office, which shall be endorsed upon the officer's commission, and the commission, with the oath, shall be recorded in the office of the clerk of the circuit court of the county in which the policeman resides. Every policeman who is appointed and commissioned as provided in this chapter shall have, exercise, and possess, throughout Indiana, while engaged in the discharge of the officer's duties as a policeman, the powers of sheriffs, marshals, constables, and municipal police officers, except in the service of civil process.

[KSFreeman]

Law enforcement officer is defined at Indiana Code 35-41-1-17.

[geekboy]

Law enforcement officer is defined at Indiana Code 35-41-1-17.But, Rail Road Police is at IC 8-3-17 because it's a special appointment.

IC 8-3-17 Chapter 17. Railroad Police

[AFA1CY]

All the above is moot!

Quote the OP:

"A local guy here was hassled for OC by a pair of 'Canadian railroad police' in a gas station parking lot."

Nothing ileagal with OC, peroid end of story. Railroad police or other.

[KSFreeman]

Right, but Indiana Code 8-3-17-1 sez they railroad cops have to be within scope of their employment. The facts above has them outside the scope of their railroad employment.

Of course, I always read things to reflect police error.:supergrin::tongueout:

(BTW, Pro77, did you know conductors are also cops while on a passenger train in Indiana?).

[geekboy]

Outside their scope? Where does it say that in Indiana code? Wes the gas station on actual Rail Road property, or an easement on Rail Road Property or adjacent to Rail Road property? I didn't hear the OP mention that. In that case, they were going about the business of the Rail Road. Plus, there's nothing in IC 8-3-17 that says they have to be at the railroad. Only that they have to be in discharge of their duties, which means... working. Nothing qualifies it more, like "must be on property". I know that some States have clear delineation around what constitutes RR Police authority, including scoping the property, appurtenances, easements, actual tracks, yards, etc. Seems Indiana didn't go that far. Specifically, IN reads while engaged in the discharge of the officer's duties as a policeman,. Their job may be to patrol in and around company property. The gas station may have been at, near or around company property. In any case, I don't see any clear delineation in IN law.

Not to get in any sort of battle of wits, but IC 8-3-17 also states
IC 8-3-17-3 Powers and duties
Sec. 3. Such policemen shall enforce and compel obedience to the laws of this state and to the ordinances of the cities and towns thereof, when engaged in the discharge of their duties as policemen for such company, and the keepers of jails, lock-ups and station-houses, in any county, city or town shall receive all persons arrested by such policemen for the commission of any offense against the laws of this state, or the ordinances of any such city or town, to be dealt with according to law, and persons so arrested shall be received by such keepers of jails, lock-ups or station-houses, on the same basis, and such persons shall have the same status as prisoners arrested by any other peace officer of the state of Indiana.This seems to compel them to enforce the laws of the State. Therefore, their power is much broader than you would assume. It also doesn't have any qualifier, like must be on rail road property. If you're reading that when engaged in the discharge of their duties as policemen as a limiting factor, it only limits that they must be working at the time. Not off duty. Or, if they work the concession stand on the weekends for extra cash... they don't have police powers at that time (unless it's a sting operation and they're undercover to catch thieves).

Yeah, OC is legal in IN, but that doesn't seem to stop any sworn Police Officer from harassing you, now does it? :)

Besides, the OP asked... What kind of authority do RR police have in Indiana when they are off of railroad owned/controlled property?Not whether OC was legal or not.

[MakeMineaP99]

BTW, Pro77, did you know conductors are also cops while on a passenger train in Indiana?

So a conductor on a train has full powers arrest, powers to investigate cirmes and carry a firearm while on train in IN. Interesting.

[geekboy]

So a conductor on a train has full powers arrest, powers to investigate cirmes and carry a firearm while on train in IN. Interesting.Yeah, cool stuff. It's in IC 8-3-18 Chapter 18. Conductor's Police Power.

IC 8-3-18-1 Authority
Sec. 1. The conductors of all trains carrying passengers within this state shall be invested with police powers while on duty on their respective trains.

[KSFreeman]

geek, as you pointed out it says that in both §1 and §3 "when engaged in the discharge of their duties as policemen for such company." Heck, you even underlined it.:supergrin:

OP, I am certain that the OP clearly stated that the police were in the wrong. At least that is my memory.:supergrin:

I do not believe that their authority is as broad as you believe. I believe that the language of the statute controls and that the rail cops must be within the scope of their employment.

I'll poke around the case law New Year's Day, but now I'm going home to hide under my bed from the police tonight.:supergrin::rofl:

[geekboy]

geek, as you pointed out it says that in both §1 and §3 "when engaged in the discharge of their duties as policemen for such company." Heck, you even underlined it.:supergrin:

OP, I am certain that the OP clearly stated that the police were in the wrong. At least that is my memory.:supergrin:

I do not believe that their authority is as broad as you believe. I believe that the language of the statute controls and that the rail cops must be within the scope of their employment.

I'll poke around the case law New Year's Day, but now I'm going home to hide under my bed from the police tonight.:supergrin::rofl:Thanks KS for looking. I don't have any caselaw for it. I based my remedial reading on the "discharge of duties" as not a scoping statement limiting where they can exercise these powers, otherwise it wouldn't be so broad. Of course, they don't want them running radar on the local roads... but they did intend to give unfettered power much like transit police enjoy. Sure, they should be in the "vicinity" of their employment, but nothing stops them from enforcing the laws of the State in which they are commissioned, and in some States (picture NYC), where the Port Authority operates in two States. I think this is the intent right, that they are to act within their "area" -- railroad -- but I wonder how many test the boundaries, and if it's ever enforced by caselaw.

You're too funny. Don't hide from the police... unless you're OC'ing again!

I'll agree though that the RR Police should not just be out and about on non-railroad property or easements or right-of-ways looking to enforce the laws.

[KSFreeman]

Doh! I'll stay out of Wheatfield, Indiana. Lousy coppers!:tongueout:

Yeah, not sure if our question has been addressed. However, I'm betting that it would have come up in a civil context just once or twice, right?:supergrin:

I'll look tomorrow, I'm going to work out and then clean guns.:cool:

[geekboy]

I found something interesting. A report about RR police. It reads that may engage off railroad property in law enforcement activities, including, without limitation, investigation and arrest, if permissible under state law. (Title 49 C.F.R., Part 207-5(c) and (d)).

Many States have clarified and add the words "on railroad property" or somesuch to the scope of duties. That's what I was wondering in Indiana's lack of specificity.

Hey, talk to you next year KSFreeman.

[Pat _Rogers]

"and in some States (picture NYC),"

Errr, NYC often thinks of itself as a state (or a soverign country), but is still a city, comprised of 5 boros, several of which are bigger then most other cities in the country. :whistling:

I get the drift though.
PAPD, which i believe is not civil service but a private PD (somebody correct me if i'm wrong here) have police powers throughout NYS and within 50 miles of the NY border in PRNJ.

They are responsible for the PATH trains, certain tunnels and bridges as well as the 3 metro area flughavens as well as two Marine Terminals

Pretty good cops, and they lost 37 MOS in the attack on NYC 6 years ago- a lot for a department of that size (1600).

Just sayin'.....

[geekboy]

"and in some States (picture NYC),"

Errr, NYC often thinks of itself as a state (or a soverign country), but is still a city, comprised of 5 boros, several of which are bigger then most other cities in the country. :whistling:

I get the drift though.
PAPD, which i believe is not civil service but a private PD (somebody correct me if i'm wrong here) have police powers throughout NYS and within 50 miles of the NY border in PRNJ.

They are responsible for the PATH trains, certain tunnels and bridges as well as the 3 metro area flughavens as well as two Marine Terminals

Pretty good cops, and they lost 37 MOS in the attack on NYC 6 years ago- a lot for a department of that size (1600).

Just sayin'.....Yeah, I mean NYS... and NYC with 9MM people, it's easy to forget it's just a city. :) I read a little about Port Authority and the bridges and things they operate. With so much to operate, I guess everything is within their jurisdiction, practically.

[Scutter01]

and NYC with 9MM people

Those are some tiny people.

[geekboy]

Those are some tiny people.Are you messing with me? Using MM to denote Million (MM is one-thousand thousand) is common in my line of work. Sorry! :tongueout:

[Scutter01]

Are you messing with me? Using MM to denote Million (MM is one-thousand thousand) is common in my line of work. Sorry! :tongueout:

Yes, I'm just messing with you. :supergrin: Admit it; you laughed.

[Prometheus77]

(BTW, Pro77, did you know conductors are also cops while on a passenger train in Indiana?).

No I didn't, that is a bit weird...

Some more info on this, it was in Munster, IN and the two CN rail road cops were in a unmarked car with ILL plates.

I probably would have told them if they thought I was doing something wrong they should call 9-1-1... I'm not on a train right now :tongueout: Who knows how that would have went :whistling:

It would seem these rail road cops may or may not be able to demand seeing a permit. They should mind there own business IMO. I hate the attitude some cops have towards OC.

[geekboy]

No I didn't, that is a bit weird...

Some more info on this, it was in Munster, IN and the two CN rail road cops were in a unmarked car with ILL plates.

I probably would have told them if they thought I was doing something wrong they should call 9-1-1... I'm not on a train right now :tongueout: Who knows how that would have went :whistling:

It would seem these rail road cops may or may not be able to demand seeing a permit. They should mind there own business IMO. I hate the attitude some cops have towards OC.Unfortunately the IL plates don't mean anything because of the Federal Railroad Act. They get to be commissioned IL "Rail Road Police" (or Peace Officers), and exercise whatever rights "Rail Road Police" have in Indiana, while they are in IN!!! I'm still wondering if the gas station was at, near, or around any RR equipment, property, yard, or on some easement.

In any case, I would venture to say that they are not very familiar with Indiana laws, especially if they were actually Illinois commissioned RR police, and in Indiana at the time!

[Scutter01]

In any case, I would venture to say that they are not very familiar with Indiana laws, especially if they were actually Illinois commissioned RR police, and in Indiana at the time!

Then they are incompetent and should be fired for trying to enforce the wrong state's laws. I have no patience for bullies, especially those who bully under color of law.

[geekboy]

Then they are incompetent and should be fired for trying to enforce the wrong state's laws. I have no patience for bullies, especially those who bully under color of law.Now that you mention it, there were investigations specifically into RR police "bullying" people. FWIW, they should stick to the business of the RR.

[rhino465]

It would seem these rail road cops may or may not be able to demand seeing a permit. They should mind there own business IMO. I hate the attitude some cops have towards OC.

Amen.

Unfortunately we live in a society that has allowed itself to devolve to the point where too many people believe that someone with a badge can't possible be wrong or do anything bad and that they are somehow the masters of everyone who doesn't belong to the club. That eventually makes the good cops look bad too.

[Rikki]

So the upshot of this is-that we got Non-Americans runnin' around enforcing American laws(or in this specific case trying to enforce a non-law).
Makes me wana puke.Sounds like something Hillary would be all for. Just one step closer to having blue hats on the corner and the UN monitoring US elections.
Only a democrat methodist could dream up this crap.

[geekboy]

So the upshot of this is-that we got Non-Americans runnin' around enforcing American laws(or in this specific case trying to enforce a non-law).
Makes me wana puke.Sounds like something Hillary would be all for. Just one step closer to having blue hats on the corner and the UN monitoring US elections.
Only a democrat methodist could dream up this crap.The OP didn't say they were non-American. He said they were CN Rail Road Police (CN Rail Road Police is an amalgamation of 3 U.S. Rail Police agencies and the Canadian Rail Police). You have to be commissioned in a U.S. State to be Rail Police. A Canadian could probably get a job as a police officer anyhow...

In any event, the real gist of this was that the RR Police with Illinois Plates, enforcing something in Indiana, which they apparently didn't understand wasn't illegal. The CN RR Police have no official headquarters in Indiana.

[Scutter01]

The OP didn't say they were non-American.

RR Police with Illinois Plates

I think that's what he meant. The People's Republic of Illinois, where they freely ignore the Constitution.

[geekboy]

I think that's what he meant. The People's Republic of Illinois, where they freely ignore the Constitution.That I would agree with.