metal spring rod

[skip a stone]

I was on the Robar website and ran across a faq that asked about using a metal recoil guide rod in Robars Glock frames. This is what Robar had to say. "We do not recommend the use of any metal recoil rod including those containing a laser aiming device. Your original Glock recoil guide rod was fabricated from plastic because of its ability to flex - a non flexing recoil rod will affect the harmonics of the slides cycling and can damage your frame!" Does anybody have info to confirm this as actually happening or is this just Robar playing it safe? Is a plastic flexing guide rod essential in the function and design of the Glock pistol?

[Duck of Death]

I run a ISMI captured metal rod in my G23. I made a extended non captured rod out of a 1911 guide rod for my G34. Both work fine.

[danielsand]

I've been using SS guide rods for years. Thousands of rounds with no problems! They are full of crap.

[RichardB]

Have you had problems with the Glock plastic guide rod? What kinds?

If not, why pay extra to fix something that ain't broke?

I'm not an engineer but I have read that bad harmonics have wrecked bridges and aircraft.

We need some professional opinions from real manufacturing types please ( not the Holiday Inn Express variety).

Richard

[sgtlmj]

I'd suspect that the main reason Glock designed the pistol with a polymer guide rod was that they can be produced in 0.4sec and cost about $0.02. It has nothing to do with harmonics.

[thorn137]

I've been using SS guide rods for years. Thousands of rounds with no problems!

In a Robar Glock frame?

thorn

[danielsand]

B I N G O!!! We have a winner!

Metal guide rod can not be supplied in Glocks, BECAUSE.....the manufacturing price would go sky high! From 75USD per pistol, to at least 76-77 Dollars. (legendary German-Austrian penny pinching at work!!!)

The ONLY reason the stock guide rod is plastic, is the COST!

[danielsand]

Hey Thorn,....I did not know Robar manufactures Glock frames!? Excuse my ignorance. I always thought they just hack, burn, dremel, and glue the original Glock frames.

What gives?

[thorn137]

http://www.robarguns.com/axframes.html

I haven't shot one, btw... nor am I agreeing an SS rod could damage anything. Just pointing out that their FAQ is talking about using a metal rod in THEIR frame, so a history of no problems in an OEM polymer frame doesn't apply.

thorn

[danielsand]

My question is: How can a Glock frame that was MODIFIED by Robar, be called a "Robar frame"? What do they do to structurally change the existing frame? I was under impression (I might be wrong,... I was many times before!), that they modify the grips and back strap on the original frame. The only complete frame (that I know off!) that is manufactured from ground up (except for Glock Inc.) is being done by CCF (in aluminum or steel, with promises of Titanium to come).
I am here to learn more. Please elaborate.

[thorn137]

My question is: How can a Glock frame that was MODIFIED by Robar, be called a "Robar frame"? What do they do to structurally change the existing frame?

As i understand the product, it's not a modified frame at all. It's a custom metal frame fabricated in-house by CCF RaceFrames.... Robar appears to be acting as a selling agent.

thorn

[danielsand]

Aha! Now we're on to something. We're talking about CCF frame. Now let's see on their site what they say about metal guide rods in their frames!

Nothing.

I shot CCF framed Glocks many times. They all had either Tungsten or SS guide rods. I must say that I don't own a CCF frame any more, but I used to. There was no problems associated with metal guide rods in them.

[thorn137]

I think we have concensus :)

Have to say, i'm not an engineer but the whole "harmonic" thing strikes me as a bit weird.

thorn

[green marauder]

I think we have concensus :)

Have to say, i'm not an engineer but the whole "harmonic" thing strikes me as a bit weird.

thorn


i cant really say about the guide rods, but there is a "harmonic flexing thing"in glocks most notabley the G22 it causes slide peaning.

[mballai]

I thought the Glock frame flexes when fired. Why would that have anything to do with the CCF frame's use of metal or polymer guide rods. Makes no sense to me.

[thorn137]

I thought the Glock frame flexes when fired.

It does.

Why would that have anything to do with the CCF frame's use of metal or polymer guide rods.

It doesn't. We're talking about CCF metal frames, not Glock polymer frames.

thorn

[green marauder]

wheres Butch ? he can explain whats going on and hopefully with some of his great pictures

[Butch]

wheres Butch ? he can explain whats going on and hopefully with some of his great pictures
Here I come to save the day! Yeah, I used to watch Mighty Mouse as a kid...... ;)

Sorry, I can't say for sure one way or the other, but I do know one thing, I've put one hell of a lot of ammo through lots of Glocks, and I don't waste my money buying steel guide rods.

The plastic one's work great.......there's no need to fix them!



:patriot:

[mballai]

Can't see any reason why it makes any difference? The guide rod really doesn't do anything except keep the recoil spring in place.

[skip a stone]

I posted originally because I bought a "frame saver dual action recoil spring" from EFKFireDragon and before I had a chance to use it I ran across the faq at the Robar guns site. I'm sure they meant any metal spring rod in any Glock pistol is a bad thing regardless of frame type, and that was in conflict with what EFKFireDragon was advertising in their dual action recoil spring. I was just curious if there was any info on the subject, and if anyone else has used the dual action recoil spring in their Glocks. The concept seems sound and although the dual action spring doesn't "flex" it does telescope in under pressure of a second spring.

[danielsand]

I have EFK Fire Dragon just like yours in my G24. Over 2K rounds through since instalation. No problems.

[JBP55]

I'd suspect that the main reason Glock designed the pistol with a polymer guide rod was that they can be produced in 0.4sec and cost about $0.02. It has nothing to do with harmonics.

+1
I use SS guide rods in G19, G17 and G34 and they work great. If stock Glock had SS guide rod and decent metal sights it would retail for $50.00 more. It is a cost saving measure. Why did the original G17 come with a metal guide rod?

[Butch]

Why did the original G17 come with a metal guide rod?
They didn't!

Who told you that nonsense?




:patriot:

[nnickatnight]

After recently going through the Glock Armorers course I can tell you that a metal guide rod is in the works from Glock. This is in part due to a failure test against the new Smith auto where the guide rod melted over extreme heat in a continous fire test. The same failure can be achieved with a continous fire excercise using the Glock 18. There will be some changes in the near future and a Glock rifle will be on the horizon at some point.

[zdragon23c]

it's a no brainer here.....replace the glock plastic guide rod with an uncaptured spring/metal guide rod ASAP. The captured spring eventually will break away from the plastic guide rod....been there done that. i've seen that on other guns also. The last one i saw was on a S&W sigma .40.

[JBP55]

They didn't!

Who told you that nonsense?




:patriot:

Butch, I have only owned Gen. 3 Glocks and if Glocks were never sold with a metal guide rod I stand corrected. Thanks for informing me.

[Butch]

Butch, I have only owned Gen. 3 Glocks and if Glocks were never sold with a metal guide rod I stand corrected. Thanks for informing me.
That rumor keeps popping up once or twice a year for some reason, it would be fun to track it back to someone!

The earliest Glocks had non-captured polymer guide rods. Best guess is that someone assumed they were made of steel.....I have several of them, they aren't! :)



:patriot:

[Butch]

After recently going through the Glock Armorers course I can tell you that a metal guide rod is in the works from Glock.
And who told you that? PM me if you don't want to put the name in the public forum.


This is in part due to a failure test against the new Smith auto where the guide rod melted over extreme heat in a continous fire test.

I'm having a hard time with this one too....Who did this 'test'? When and where? What's the purpose?

IF Glock was going to make a steel guide rod, they'd make it for the G18. And since they haven't felt a need to do that in the 19 years it's been in service, I doubt it's gonna happen.





:patriot:

[DaBigBR]

There will be some changes in the near future and a Glock rifle will be on the horizon at some point.

:rofl:

[mike3286]

Any opinions on tungsten vs steel? Best brand? I have a gen2 glock23 and will be upgrading spring and spring rod.

[Jager1147]

Just wanted to chime in here, I think the original question was not answered. The only frames to NOT use steel guide rods in are the CCF metal frames Rob is building guns with.

[retsvek]

Here I come to save the day! Yeah, I used to watch Mighty Mouse as a kid...... ;)

Sorry, I can't say for sure one way or the other, but I do know one thing, I've put one hell of a lot of ammo through lots of Glocks, and I don't waste my money buying steel guide rods.

The plastic one's work great.......there's no need to fix them!



:patriot:

Butch, with all respect. I have had two stock guide rods crack in Gen 3 G22's with factory ammo after around 1000 rounds. On 40 S&W caliber stock (non-Robar) glocks the first thing I do is put in a SS guide rod and spring in.

Peace,

Kevin

[Phunahm]

I change my guide rods to s/s immediately The flanges on the platic ARE prone to breaking....Like said above its a cost issue......I had no problems at all with S/S guide rods "change the harmonics":faint: OMG :rofl:

[Apocalypse_Now]

Reason we'll never see the new Glock rifle is it's going to be manufactured in invisitanium, a new, 100% invisible poly-alloy. This will make confiscation under the upcoming administration difficult and I highly recommend we all buy a few, ASAP :shocked:

[ghostrider775]

I just fit one of these to my G23, it was of the Lone Wolf variety. I ended up having to bevel the rear edge of the retainer (screw) so it wouldn't catch on the slide and prevent the pistol from going into complete battery. I haven't shot it yet, but it seems to work fine now.

[BLC]

I just fit one of these to my G23, it was of the Lone Wolf variety. I ended up having to bevel the rear edge of the retainer (screw) so it wouldn't catch on the slide and prevent the pistol from going into complete battery. I haven't shot it yet, but it seems to work fine now.


I just bought one of these too but have not yet installed it. Is it a design flaw or was yours damaged? How difficult was it compressing the spring far enough to get the allen head screwed in? Did you use loctite? Dumb questions I know, but I am new to captured springs.

[ghostrider775]

I'm not completely positive what it was, not a design flaw, possibly just the pistol. It wouldn't do it every time, but maybe one out of 5 charges of the slide would catch on the sharp top edge of the screw when returning to battery. 30 seconds with my dremel, an voi'la. As far as the recoil spring, I just used my work bench to brace the end of the rod and held the spring with a rag to save the flesh on my hand. It was a little tough getting the spring down far enough but once you get the screw started you don't have to hold the spring. I did use loctite, the medium duty stuff. It's in a red bottle, but the agent is actually blue. I had to take it apart to run the dremel, and it was in there securely but not too bad.

[SCC]

Have you had problems with the Glock plastic guide rod? What kinds?

If not, why pay extra to fix something that ain't broke?

I'm not an engineer but I have read that bad harmonics have wrecked bridges and aircraft.

We need some professional opinions from real manufacturing types please ( not the Holiday Inn Express variety).

Richard
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[seangatt]

Hi to all What are the best ss guide rods around?

[BLC]

I'm not completely positive what it was, not a design flaw, possibly just the pistol. It wouldn't do it every time, but maybe one out of 5 charges of the slide would catch on the sharp top edge of the screw when returning to battery. 30 seconds with my dremel, an voi'la. As far as the recoil spring, I just used my work bench to brace the end of the rod and held the spring with a rag to save the flesh on my hand. It was a little tough getting the spring down far enough but once you get the screw started you don't have to hold the spring. I did use loctite, the medium duty stuff. It's in a red bottle, but the agent is actually blue. I had to take it apart to run the dremel, and it was in there securely but not too bad.


Thanks for the info! I almost forgot, I dont need a washer for the stock spring do I?

[ghostrider775]

No, as long as you're using the factory recoil spring, you'll be fine.

[BLC]

Thanks ghostrider, I am going to get me some Loctite in the morning and head to the range.

[mfetty77]

Had a Lightning Strike captured ss one in my G19 for almost 2yrs. It has NEVER caused any problems for me. Sounds like BS to me.

[BLC]

So this morning when I put the spring on the SS rod I tweaked it just a LITTLE, will this cause issues? I didnt bend it in half or anything like that.

I also noticed after putting the pistol back together you could see the spring and rod through a little gap between the slide and frame, normal? I never noticed it before.

[ghostrider775]

Did you "tweak" it when you were putting the spring on, or for it to fit correctly?
I can see the spring and a bit of daylight, but not the actual rod.

[hikerpaddler]

The only time I"ve ever replaced the stock rod was with a lasermax. Otherwise, I run stock.

[BLC]

Did you "tweak" it when you were putting the spring on, or for it to fit correctly?
I can see the spring and a bit of daylight, but not the actual rod.


When I was putting it on, and as I said just a little. I put 300 rounds through it this morning and not only did it run flawlessly, I shot better than ever.

I just hope the allen screw is tight enough, I depressed the spring and gripped the rod with a pair of pliers and tightened it until the rod spun in the pliers.

Cant believe how well I shoot this 23!!

[BrandonR]

It would appear we have several qualified mechanical engineers and vibrational experts on these boards since so many of them are getting a kick out of the harmonics issue. :upeyes:

[jp 19]

i have at least 10,000 rnd through my g19 with the "crappy" plastic oem guide rod... never had an issue with it... not saying i won't but after that many round you can have issues with anything... Regarding glock coming out with a a steel guide rod... seems a couple years ago they were coming out with a carbine:whistling: ... and then there was the big surprise for the shot show one year:wow:... and other internet rumors....i spoke with a glock rep (didnt get his name so it just rumor) at the NRA show he said Glock didnt plan on changing the guide rod... i dont know maybe he was wrong... all i know for sure is mine works fine and the only breakage i have seen has been the flange and that was probably due to improper re-assembly.... probably ... maybe....

oh and all "marketing professionals" for after market parts will go straight to hell when they die...:devildance:

[raziel52000]

Just to set the record straight: the plastic guide rods and frame do NOT flex. They are fairly stiff materials but most importantly, they are highly brittle. Any appreciable deformation or "flexing" would cause them to shatter or at the very least crack extensively.

[douglasd]

Just to set the record straight: the plastic guide rods and frame do NOT flex. They are fairly stiff materials but most importantly, they are highly brittle. Any appreciable deformation or "flexing" would cause them to shatter or at the very least crack extensively.


That's simply not true. Both the frame and guide do flex. I'm not sure where you got that info.

And for what it's worth, I've heard of steel guide rods breaking also, as much if not more than the stock rods.

[Jager1147]

Plastic frames Do flex.

Steel guide rods by some manufacturers have been known to break. Tungsten rods have been known to break as well. But the reason in my humble opinion these other metal guide rods break is because they are manufactured in two pieces. To say that metal guide rods will break as much or more than plastic ones is just incorrect.

[douglasd]

Plastic frames Do flex.

To say that metal guide rods will break as much or more than plastic ones is just incorrect.

I'm glad you admit that the plastic ones DO flex. However, as for your second statement, all I said was that I've heard of the steel ones breaking as much or more than the plastic. That's not a hard statistic, just what I've heard.

Bottom line is, there's nothing wrong with the stock guide rod...and the flex is there for a reason. It's not just a matter of cost.

[kraigster414]

The incorporation of a plastic guide rod is classic economics with a heavy dose of risk management thrown in for good measure. Plastic is cheaper and the guide rod is essentially nothing more than that: a guide. And while plastic recoil spring assemblies have been known to break (I experienced it myself in a G27 and will never go back to the plastic OEM part in a Glock subcompact), the odds are well in your favor that you will NOT have a problem. Having said that and all things being equal the use of a metal rod further decreases your chance of a failure, and in the case of the Wolff two-part recoil spring assembly, it is simply IMHO (the Wolff), a stronger and more reliable part when used in the Glock subcompacts. This is my opinion and yours may differ. Cheap insurance if you will.

[mickdundie]

Have you had problems with the Glock plastic guide rod? What kinds?

If not, why pay extra to fix something that ain't broke?

I'm not an engineer but I have read that bad harmonics have wrecked bridges and aircraft.

We need some professional opinions from real manufacturing types please ( not the Holiday Inn Express variety).

Richard

+1
Mick:thumbsup:
In the Robars frame I think whatever they recommend. But then why pay for a Robars frame???

[Jager1147]

I'm glad you admit that the plastic ones DO flex.

To be honest with you, I didn't. I just didn't respond to that since I believe it's irrelevant. Thinking about it I guess a stock rod will flex due to simple physics. I know the frame flexes quite a bit, most would be surprised what that frame does. I would imagine that the soft plastic guide rod would also flex, similar to an arrow being launched from a bow. What I do know is that the guide rod head will contact the underside of the barrel and force it to cam up slightly at the end of the slide stroke. At this point in time, the rod is sticking out of the front of the slide, swinging in the breeze. But, is the guide rod flex neccessary to the funtion of the firearm? I'd like to hear more about this if it is. I personally don't think it's neccessary.

[kraigster414]

"But, is the guide rod flex neccessary to the funtion of the firearm? I'd like to hear more about this if it is. I personally don't think it's neccessary."

I have yet to have anyone convince me that it (flex) is necessary, i.e., that it improves function or relaibility or contributes to less wear on the gun. And as for plastic vs. metal, I'd rather have a part that is less succeptible to breakage.

[kraigster414]

Have you had problems with the Glock plastic guide rod? What kinds?

If not, why pay extra to fix something that ain't broke?

I'm not an engineer but I have read that bad harmonics have wrecked bridges and aircraft.

We need some professional opinions from real manufacturing types please ( not the Holiday Inn Express variety).

Richard

Richard, some will say that is broke or the potential certainly exists. And it only has to happen to you once to make you a believer. The problem is more prevalent from what I've been able to gather (ditto from my experience) in the Glock subcompacts, partucilarly with the harder hitting .40SW and .357 SIG. And I don't think you need a PhD in engineering to make a distinction between the strength of plastic vs. metal. If there are bad harmonics associated with switching say to a Wolff system in a Glock subcompact, I am unawre of it. I have fired upwards of 3x rounds through my G27 with the Wolff (both .40 and .357 Sig) with not one single failure or an evidence of accelerated wear on parts. Conversely, the plastic OEM part failed after the first 300 rounds in that same G27, brand new, right out of the box.

Are the odds in your favor with the plastic part? Yes. Most folks will not experience a problem. Can it fail? Like anything else, yes. Are your chances of faillure reduced by switching to a metal part? I believe they are though admittedly, I am not an engineer. Just someone who shoots a lot. :) Bottom line, if your gun is strictly a paper killer, I see no reason not to stick with the factory part. Just keep and extra part in your range bag. (Kraigster414 checking in from the Holilday Inn Express)

[douglasd]

To be honest with you, I didn't. I just didn't respond to that since I believe it's irrelevant.

OK, sorry. You said the frames flex. I misread your post.

[kraigster414]

The only time I"ve ever replaced the stock rod was with a lasermax. Otherwise, I run stock.

No offense but in a carry weapon (no time to swap out stuff), I have more confidence in an aftermarket steel rod than I do with an internal lasermax installed.

[Jager1147]

Hey, it's cool. Just want to be as technically accurate as possible, the boards are a good source of info. Thanks man.

[.45Super-Man]

[QUOTE=zdragon23c;9614910]it's a no brainer here.....replace the glock plastic guide rod with an uncaptured spring/metal guide rod ASAP. The captured spring eventually will break away from the plastic guide rod....been there done that. i've seen that on other guns also. The last one i saw was on a S&W sigma .40.[/QUOTE+1. Ive tried a few different ones and can highly recommend THE s/s uncaptured guiderods along with ISMI springs. THE guiderods are the exact same diameter as the factory guiderod, allowing you to also use factory springs. ISMI flat springs are designed correctly and wont "crash", like some others I've used.