Aimpoint or S.P.O.T [Archive] - Glock Talk

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vrex
01-08-2008, 16:46
The spot is the most rugged clone supposedly......I know aimpoint is the best, but 550 for one with a mount as opposed to 165 for the spot...the spot has recieved views that it holds its zero great and is tough...for sport shooting and competiton, which is what Ill be doing, will the 300 plus saved ( and used for ammo and mags) be worth the comprimise?

MAX100
01-08-2008, 17:36
I would go with the Aimpoint Copy for $42 shipped. You could have three of them, almost four, for what the spot cost. I have two of the Aimpoint copies and they are very durable, just as durable as the Spot and the real Aimpoint. The Spot I believe is made by the same company that makes the Aimpoint copies.


GC

koalorka
01-08-2008, 18:19
Aimpoint, no question.

vrex
01-08-2008, 19:11
very tempting to at least try for plinking



I would go with the Aimpoint Copy for $42 shipped. You could have three of them, almost four, for what the spot cost. I have two of the Aimpoint copies and they are very durable, just as durable as the Spot and the real Aimpoint. The Spot I believe is made by the same company that makes the Aimpoint copies.


GC

vrex
01-08-2008, 19:50
I would go with the Aimpoint Copy for $42 shipped. You could have three of them, almost four, for what the spot cost. I have two of the Aimpoint copies and they are very durable, just as durable as the Spot and the real Aimpoint. The Spot I believe is made by the same company that makes the Aimpoint copies.


GC



I checked out the sight form the other thread...my main concern would be ordring from a hong kong based site--no way to gauge security or shipment times etc....

ironmind
01-08-2008, 22:08
My chinese replica lasted about 200 rounds on my CX4 before it went T.U.

MAX100
01-08-2008, 22:50
There is no risk if you go through PayPal because they always side with the buyer. I have heard of buyers ripping off the sellers by putting in for a refund and sending a empty box back to the seller and still get their refund. They never turn the buyer down for a refund. I know that first hand from being a seller.

ironmind I am sure there are some of the Aimpoint copies that have had problems. There are $500 real Aimpoints that have problems also. The Aimpoint copies have been out for a few years now and 98% of the feedback I have heard about them has been good. Most of the problems I have heard about has to do with the two small batteries they put in them at the factory. Just switch them out for the bigger 1/3N single battery and all fixed.

The guy that runs the website Airsoft Vanguard sales on Ebay. He also has a Ebay store you can look him up and read his feedback. I have bought from him before. I bought copy of the ARMS Throw QR mount from him.


GC

ironmind
01-08-2008, 22:58
Thanks, I'll look him up!

ArGyLe64
01-09-2008, 14:04
There is no risk if you go through PayPal because they always side with the buyer. I have heard of buyers ripping off the sellers by putting in for a refund and sending a empty box back to the seller and still get their refund. They never turn the buyer down for a refund. I know that first hand from being a seller.

GC

I know that for a fact as well. Long story but my wife and I lost $175 selling a scanner because of someone scamming the PayPal refund system.

Pat _Rogers
01-09-2008, 15:31
I have two of the Aimpoint copies and they are very durable, just as durable as the Spot and the real Aimpoint.
Hi Max- that is a pretty broad statement.
Can you advise what testing protocols you have followed to arrive at this conclusion?
What lab did the electronics and accuracy work?
Approximately how many hours of testing? Type of testing?

If you are going to make a statement like that, it has the potential for turning into a dramanet myth, at the speed of light.

If you are just making it up, say that it is your opinion, and follow it up with how you arrived at this conclusion.

Just sayin'....

MAX100
01-09-2008, 16:37
It is my opinion. I thought that was understood. The Aimpoint copy is not waterproof but other wise just as durable. I wouldn't put a real Aimpoint water to find out, would you.

I have owned and sold both and have seen many and can give an opinion on experience. When you have owned both you can have an experienced opinion too. I would like to hear it. The best proof is in the field. I have never had anyone come back to me that I sold a AP copy too and say they have had a problem with it or didn't like it.

The Aimpoint is pretty simple design not very hard to copy and copy well. The design doesn't warrant a $450 price tag. That is my opinion also. Look at the ARMS Throw QR mount they charge $125 or more for. XDOPTIC in China the one that makes the Aimpoint copy makes an excellent copy of that mount for $25.


GC

Pat _Rogers
01-09-2008, 17:17
Thank you for your reply.
Some comments.
You didn't state it was your opinion- you stated what i believe to be a fact. If you said "I believe...", OK, an opinion.

I have taken Aimpoints into the water before. Yup, more than once. Why wouldn't I? It was designed to be used under harsh circumstances.

I have used Aimpoints in the field. Since they first came out, continuously...

While i don't sell gear, i use and teach it. I have had -conservatively speaking- thousands of Aimpoints and EOTechs - on the guns of those i have trained.

I have also owned a SPOT. Can i have an opinion now:cool:?

I have also had a handful of knockoffs in front of me. One SPOT lasted for one 3 day class. None of the others did.
Hmmm.....

The fact that you claim that no one you sold a knock off to came back and complained means...well, nothing.
How many were sold? What do they for a living? Hobby shooters? Those who press triggers on people for a living? How many rounds fired? Under what conditions?
You haven't shown how many firing cycles, switch integrity and so forth leads you to opine that some chicom knock off is "just as durable" as an Aimpoint.
That kind of stuff. Facts.

When people make a declarative statement, the standard i use is this- would you raise your hand, be sworn in, and testify to it?

In your case, based on what you have written, it wouldn't fly.

I used to see a lot of civilian shooters come to class with garbage, but that doesn't happen much any more- people have smartened up.
Or, as my Dad used to say "Buy Cheap, Buy Twice".
You apparently don't feel that way, but i don't aspire to mediocrity.

Thanks for your comments. They are a nice addition to the files.

MAX100
01-09-2008, 18:15
Your opinion. I disagree with your opinion and nothing you will say will change that. I would have no problem using one of the copies in a life treating situation. I have seen how people are treated that show up for classes with very good less expensive equipment by their other class mates who payed top dollar for their equipment. I go with what works and don't follow the so called in crowd because it is popular. Fact: The Aimpoint is a very simple design and very easy to copy and copy well. Not worth you guys are paying for them. My experienced opinion. I will leave it at that and move on.

GC

Pat _Rogers
01-09-2008, 18:20
Thanks Max, i appreciate your response!

Pat _Rogers
01-11-2008, 03:52
First, I have no problem dunking any Aimpoint sights in water for any extended period of time. They are designed and tested to do so per the environments the clients need to use them.
There are 733,000 Aimpoints in the hands of the military.
While your "experienced" opinion (what experience??) believes the knock offs are equal too Aimpoints, below is a list of standards that the Aimpoints meet.
Can you provide the list of standards that the chicom/ airsoft meets??

All Aimpoint military sights are rigidly tested against MIL-STD 810F. Available for review on the internet.
500.4 Low Pressure (Altitude) (up to 15,000ft)
501.4 High Temperature (up to 160F)
502.4 Low Temperature (down to -60F)
503.4 Temperature Shock
504 Contamination by Fluids
505.4 Solar Radiation (Sunshine)
506.4 Rain (as much as 4" per hour with 40MPH wind)
507.4 Humidity
508.5 Fungus
509.4 Salt Fog (48 hours at 95F)
510.4 Sand and Dust (blowing dust at 1750fpm for six hours)
511.4 Explosive Atmosphere
512.4 Immersion (80ft to 150ft for over 30minutes)
513.5 Acceleration
514.5 Vibration
515.5 Acoustic Noise
516.5 Shock
517 Pyroshock
518 Acidic Atmosphere
519.5 Gunfire Vibration
520.2 Temperature, Humidity, Vibration, and Altitude
521.2 Icing/Freezing Rain
522 Ballistic Shock
523.2 Vibro-Acoustic/Temperature

MrMurphy
01-11-2008, 04:52
Never been swimming with my M68 (thankfully!) but mine's been rained on heavily and been through high humidity... even got rained on today (rain, in the desert, who would have thought? Second time in the tour).

Me personally, I wouldn't trust an Aimpoint clone with my life. For competition/target shooting as the OP said, maybe, but serious work? No. I know what kind of abuse my 68 has survived, and I'm not trusting a Chinese clone in real world situations.

Pat _Rogers
01-11-2008, 05:14
MrMurphy- thank you for your service. You are dead nuts right- for games and air flaccid, toy optics are an option.
For real world use, they are not.
Max states that the aiir flaccid knock offs are the equal of Aimpoints, but in my experience, just as good, isn't.

MrMurphy
01-11-2008, 07:05
Well, we're not doing that much over here, watching sand re-arrange itself mostly. But the stuff we're guarding is doing a lot of good work downrange, we've seen some of "our" stuff in the news lately.

Gino
01-11-2008, 18:35
It should be noted that Pat Rogers is a very well-known and well-respected firearms instructor that is on the top tier of the instructor ladder. We can disagree with him, but let's face it, there are only a handfull of guys in the country with his experience and his posts need to be treated differently than most of ours.

I have had the chance to train with another nationally known instructor and his advice has been the same, get the Aimpoint and skip everything else.

MAX100,
The problem with what you are saying is that these clones don't hold up to the rigors of a carbine class. I agree with you that the Aimpoint is way overpriced, and we should be able to get a clone for $200 that will hold up, but it seems that this is not the case. And that is the reason we need to respect these instructor's opinions, they are the our testbed...

That said, I'm going to get a $50 cheapy just to see if I like them.

Tommy Vercetti
01-11-2008, 19:03
"It should be noted that Pat Rogers is a very well-known and well-respected firearms instructor that is on the top tier of the instructor ladder. We can disagree with him, but let's face it, there are only a handfull of guys in the country with his experience and his posts need to be treated differently than most of ours."

Big +1.:agree: A good rule of thumb where Pat Rogers is concerned is to sit down, STFU, and prepare to be educated.:beer:

MAX100
01-11-2008, 19:51
I stand by my statement. The Aimpoint ML2 is not a complex optic it is a very simple design and easy to copy and copy well. The Aimpoint sight that these guys are buying are not worth what they are paying for them. The Aimpoint copy that I suggested is very close to the durability and Quality of the Aimpoint ML2.
You must believe there is truth in what I and others are saying or otherwise why would you waste your $50 on a sight that is going to go out on you after a few rounds. The internet is full of reviews stating how good the copie is that is made by XDOPTICS. I have talk to and seen many that use them in the rain in 3 gun matches and have for a few years and they are still going strong. I have put mine under some pretty heavy use, drop them a few times and they are still working well. You have to go with what the evidence shows and what you know and not listen to those who tell you what you should think. I say try one out and not listen to me or anyone else and form your own opinion on the evidence.

Here is XDOPTICS website in China showing the Aimpoint copy in their lineup. It states they are a Firearms optic manufacture and the copy is a firearm optic not made for toys. People buy them to use on toys just like they can buy the real Aimpiont to use on toys but that doesn't make it a toy optic.

http://owenge.en.ec21.com/product_detail.jsp?group_id=GC01068388&product_id=CA01238561&product_nm=Red_Dot_Sight,Reflex_Sight,Hot_Sale_Red_Dot_Sight_M2000


Read this post by a Police officer and GT member:

Infallible Wrote:
I have a real Aimpoint M2 and a ML2, I also bought a "fake" ML2 off of Ebay for $40.00. The truth is my M2 rides on my duty AR15, the ML2 on my Armalite and the fake on my AR build. Other than the batteries not lasting as long and the limited light emitter adjustability (not as fine), the fake works exactly like the real deal I spent $375 on.

When you receive your Aimpoint Copy and have chance to try it out give use your honest opinion even if it doesn't agree with those that own the overpriced real deal.

I would change the batteries out on the copy for the single 1/3N battery. The mounts that come on them are very good also. The ARMS Throw QR mount copy is very good at 1/7th the price of the real deal.



GC

MrMurphy
01-11-2008, 21:19
Design may be easy to copy, but ruggedness and quality is what you pay for.

Running a 3 gun match is one thing, some dents and dings aren't bad. My Aimpoint/M68 has been frozen, roasted, rained on, slammed into doorways, Humvees, concrete runways, other people in body armor, other guns, Humvee turret rings, Humvee floors, armored side doors, hell even a windshield I think, crushed against a wall by 500+lb of grunts (slung and we were lifting a guy through a window in training), body-slammed more than once against barriers, etc and it's still ticking.

If your chinese clone can survive that, the more the merrier, but......... I doubt it would. And for a serious combat optic, THAT is my standard.

Skintop911
01-11-2008, 21:45
I have seen how people are treated that show up for classes with very good less expensive equipment by their other class mates who payed top dollar for their equipment.

At what venues, and with what instructors, did you experience this with?

I stand by my statement. The Aimpoint ML2 is not a complex optic it is a very simple design and easy to copy and copy well. The Aimpoint sight that these guys are buying are not worth what they are paying for them. The Aimpoint copy that I suggested is very close to the durability and Quality of the Aimpoint ML2.

No, not even close.

You have to go with what the evidence shows and what you know and not listen to those who tell you what you should think. I say try one out and not listen to me or anyone else and form your own opinion on the evidence.

That's reasonable.

I've used a wide variety of the economy/airsoft/clone dot sights. They don't resist shock, moisture, vibration. They don't repeat their zero. The electronics fail. Is that enough?

Read this post by a Police officer and GT member:

Infallible Wrote:
I have a real Aimpoint M2 and a ML2, I also bought a "fake" ML2 off of Ebay for $40.00. The truth is my M2 rides on my duty AR15, the ML2 on my Armalite and the fake on my AR build. Other than the batteries not lasting as long and the limited light emitter adjustability (not as fine), the fake works exactly like the real deal I spent $375 on.[/b]

It does indeed operate similarly. Has he followed up with further description of how he's running it? I know lots of cops that run a lot of low-end, economy, "good-as" gear and it works great for them (while they consume a box of ammo a month, or it sits in the safe)

You don't know what you don't know. I'm glad your gear is meeting your needs. Do check your fire, please, so that someone else isn't relying upon your input to acquire something they'll need a higher standard of performance from. Their life may depend on it.

MAX100
01-11-2008, 22:06
Don't worry there are enough of you guys around to set them straight. I have seen a couple and have heard about some of the real Aimpoints go out and have to be sent back for repair. I guess that is what all the extra cost is for, the 10 year Warranty. It is good that the ones in Iraq, whose lives depend on them, have spare replacements.

I really don't care what you guys are using as long as you are happy with your purchase and happy with the results you are getting. I am happy with mine.


GC

Pat _Rogers
01-12-2008, 03:59
There is one guy in the Aimpoint repair section in VA. He is like the Maytag guy>
There is a pic on 10-8 of an Aimpoint and AR that were run over by a semi. While the gun was crushed, the Aimpoint still works.
I held that optic in my hand yesterday. When you turn the switch on, a dot appears.
In police work, we call this a clue...

Max, you are basing your comments re durability on vapor. "No one returns them".
Yup, that is a gold standard.
Easily copied. Are you an electrical engineer as well.

Sell your toys, and i hope you do well at it.
But geez, be realistic in what you say.
Babbel is just that.

Megastar 10
01-12-2008, 06:30
FWIW I have no experience with the S.P.O.T. but I have a Tac Point that I bought for $140 or something like that about three years ago. It was my first red dot type of sight. I used it for one range session and then sold it a few months later, leaving me wondering why everyone loved red dot sights so much. A year or so later I bought a rifle that included an Aimpoint on it which I figured I could sell for $350 or so once I got the rifle. Thankfully I messed with it for a while and used it on the rifle and decided that it was the cat's meow. The Aimpoint was superior in clarity of both the optics and the dot itself and the overal construction was so much better.

I am not discounting the knockoffs entirely, and there are some guns I could see using one on or situations where it would be a better idea, but they are cheaper for a reason and it's not just because they are Chinese made. Several cliches fit here: "You get what you pay for," "Pay now or pay later," "Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten." Would I put an Aimpoint on my 10/22? No. Would I put a knockoff on my AR? Not since that once :)

Good luck with whatever you choose.

MAX100
01-12-2008, 12:21
Pat, look the Aimpoint over good: Aluminum tube with a bulge in it, lenses, battery compartment that controls light intensity. There are wires running from the light control to a inter suspended ring with a LED mounted on it. There are two adjustment knobs with screws attach that allows the inter suspended ring with LED to be adjusted up and down, side to side. That is basically it on the Aimpoint ML2 very simple design but a good one. What gives the Aimpoint and it's copy there strength is the suspended ring is housed in the thickest aluminum part of the sight. How that thickest part protrudes and it's shape also give it strength to protect the LED and the main tube from taking the brunt of a impact. That keeps the LED and main tube from getting completely crushed if ran over. That is the reason, on the one you observed, the LED still worked. The weakest part of the sight is the battery compartment. I have seen a few that have been torn off from the body.

It doesn't take a engineer to understand the Aimpoint sight. Anyone should be able to figure it out after 5 mins of looking it over. I am not an engineer but I do have a engineering background. This is the same design, a tube and LED, that all red dot sights use. There is nothing new here. What is new is the patent long battery life technology some Aimpoint models have.

Would you guys feel the same way about the Aimpoint if it only cost $150. That is about what it is really worth. I have always said, make a good simple easy to manufacture low cost quality product, stick a high price tag on it, give it a catchy name and people will eat it up and you will get rich.



GC

Kilroy
01-12-2008, 14:59
Pat, look the Aimpoint over good:
GC
From the looks of Pat's book, I think he's done that. From attending his lecture on same, I know he's familiar with that of which he speaks.

There are wires running from the light control to a inter suspended ring with a laser module.....protect the laser and the main tube from taking the brunt of a impact. That keeps the laser and main tube from getting completely crushed if ran over. That is the reason, on the one you observed, the laser still....
GC

Aimpoint manufactures a red dot sight without magnification or optical distortion. It uses a LED (light emitted diode) which is totally harmless for the eyes.

What a red dot sight is not:
...It is not a laser. A laser is visible on the target. The red dot sight is only seen by the shooter.

Aimpoint Technology (http://www.aimpoint.com/products/technology)

Not to harp on you, but the devil's in the details. If we are going to present a point of fact, we'll want to be accurate and base opinions on a good body of experience. I may be wrong, but don't see that in your posts just yet.

I've seen several Aimpoints take falls and related abuse. I recently watched one take a bath when the use dumped water over his head, caring little that it'd soak his Aimpoint (and it did). In that case the 124 degree weather at StJoMo cared little for man or equipment.

However, I am looking for a cheaper optic for an airsoft carbine. How long do the batteries in these copies last? Ideally, they should match my M4 or at least my T1 for battery life. Do you have them available? Can you direct me to a point of sale if not?

RM
01-12-2008, 15:20
Anything can fail, but the big difference between sights like the aimpoint and the others listed is they are less likely to fail. Take 1000 of each and put them through the same course of fire more aimpoints would be working at the end, now if you luck out to be one of the few that still work in the end that weren't milspec than good on you. In CONUS it might not be that big a deal, but overseas with no readily available replacements it may be a big deal.

MAX100
01-12-2008, 15:20
True it is a LED but I often call it a laser. That is wrong on my part. The battery life on the copy is about 30 hours on it's highest setting. I don't sale them anymore. You should not have any problem finding one they are for sale all over the net. Why would you waste your money on a cheap piece of Junk that you will like and after owning one you will more than likely end up buying one to go on your AR15. But don't tell Pat. As long as these real Aimpoint guys don't know about it you don't have worry about them making fun of you.

The Magnifiers they sale are excellent also.

GC

MAX100
01-12-2008, 15:57
If anyone is interested in one of the Aimpoint Copies here is the website that has the nicest of the Aimpoint copies. He is located in Hong Kong China and it takes about 5 business days to get your order after it is shipped. You pay by PayPal so it is safe. Prices include shipping cost.

Aimpoint Copy Link:
http://www.airsoftvanguard.com/index.php?p=1&act=search&lang=en&favorite=aimpoint&submit.x=15&submit.y=20

Here is a picture of one of my Aimpoint copies mounted on a Mossberg SPX. It is about 3 years old and has been on several different guns and thousands of rounds and it is still going strong.


http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/MAX100/SPX930-2.jpg



GC

Pat _Rogers
01-12-2008, 18:32
Max- it is hard to take you seriously, considering your appalling lack on knowledge and experience on this.

But you sure are giving me a lot of ammunition!

MAX100
01-12-2008, 22:17
I guess when we see you coming we should all clear the way for you, It sounds like that is what you are use to.


GC

HiCountryCowboy
01-12-2008, 22:31
It boggles my mind that someone, who obviously has no real world experience beyond the internet, is here on this forum talking smack to Pat Rogers.


This is exactly the reason why Glock Talk is considered a joke by so many.

V42
01-12-2008, 23:28
Yes, Pat.

There is nothing like the airsoft link which Max100 provided to help him make his case. :upeyes:

V42
01-12-2008, 23:29
It boggles my mind that someone, who obviously has no real world experience beyond the internet, is here on this forum talking smack to Pat Rogers.

This is exactly the reason why Glock Talk is considered a joke by so many.

Absolutely. If you'll excuse me know, there are some aspects of physics that Stephen Hawkings needs straightening out on.

MrMurphy
01-13-2008, 00:02
I've seen around 500 Aimpoints in use (two squadron's worth more or less) and despite daily abuse, the only thing I've seen break occasionally is the brightness button coming off. No hardcore abuse (semis running over etc) just normal wear and tear.

And yes, it's hard to believe some dude would talk smack to Pat Rogers about THIS topic.....

MAX100
01-13-2008, 03:02
He started the smack talk if you will go back and read. I am sure I am not first to disagree with Pat. It is not a crime to disagree with him. He is not always right. There are a lot of bias opinions coming from ones who have been in the business a long time. Pat likes Aimpoint there are others with the about the same credentials who think the EOtech is the best, some love their iron sights, some like their ACOG and the list goes on. The basic Aimpoint will be old news in about 5 years. It's to heavy, large and cumbersome.

I read a piece a while back where a couple of people took one of Pat's three day classes with a couple of OKOs and they had no problems making it through without failures. The OKOs are one of the least durable sights available.

OKOs in Pat Rodgers 3 day class Link:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/shooter2_indy/carbine04.html


I didn't give the Airsoft website to prove a point if you will look Kilroy's post over again. Kilroy ask where he could get one, he said, because he has a toy to put it on. I provided the info he was looking for. The same Aimpoint copies are for sale at firearms websites also. The SPOT is also made by XDOTICS but is not a true copy of the Aimpoint. Pat has had a very distinguished career and I see you guys look up to him but that means nothing to me and many others. I Wish Pat and all of you lots of luck. Pat I " Sincerely Apologize" if I offended you.


GC

Pat _Rogers
01-13-2008, 04:31
No max, you made a statement out of left field and i asked you to back it up with facts.
You were unable to, and started tap dancing.
No problem.
Your inability to distinguish laser and LED was distracting, but are you not aware of the Aimpoint Micro T1? 3.5 oz? 2.4"x1.6". Been out for about a year now.
I'm sure those with sterling ethics will make a vismod clone of that as well.

FYI- i run Aimpoints, EOTechs, S&B Short Dots, RCO's and even an Elcan.

MAX100
01-13-2008, 06:12
I think that if two of the OKO sights can make it through one of your three day classes that proves my point on the Aimpoint copy sights. You failed to tell us about those type sights used in your classes that have no problems. I suspect many Tacpoint, Aimpoint Copies, SPOT and others do very well also. This says it all.

For those of you who don't know what a OKO sight looks like here is a picture. They are made of polymer and one of the least durable sights one can use. The Aimpoint copy would have no problem. There is nothing more to be said.


http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/MAX100/OKOSIGHT-1.jpg


GC

Pat _Rogers
01-13-2008, 07:16
One, two or even 20 are too small a statistical sample to base anything on, and only a fool would do so.

The majority of optics in my classes are Aimpoints, EOTechs and RCO'.s Several thousand of them in the past few years. That constitutes a viable sample.

Continue to marh there max. It just gives me more ammunition....:rofl:

LoneWolfUSMC
01-13-2008, 10:43
My worry in all this is some poor street cop is going to read one of your errornet comments and put a Clone on his duty rifle.

There is a HUGE difference between the punishment a weapon takes during a 3-Gun match, carbine class, on street patrol or in combat. In a 3-Gun match a rifle may go from the safe, to the trunk, to the range, to the trunk, to the safe. In a Carbine class it's much the same with the addition of extra rounds downrange and some extra banging about from transitions, etc.

During patrol my rifle bounces around in the trunk of my car, it can go from below freezing to a sauna-hot building (don't ask me why they always turn the heat up so high) then back to freezing when I put it away. Every time the weapon comes out, the optic gets turned on. That is a LOT of wear on the switch assembly. Sometimes it dosent get turned off when it gets put away. That would really suck to need it the next day and realize the batteries are dead. With the real deal you COULD leave the optic on and change the batteries every other Christmas. I have lost count of how many times I have jumped out of the car and slammed my rifle into the doorjamb of the Crown Vic. What? It's raining? Oh, I guess I can't use my rifle because the optic might get wet. Yea right. Wet, cold, hot, muddy, etc. It still works. In my line of work we don't always get to shoot them either. At some point you have to sling up and go hands on. Now my optic is bouncing around on hard armor and has bounced off of hard stuff more than once when someone became non-compliant.

Now take a look at combat. Multiply all the crap I listed that happens on street patrol by a factor of ten and add in that one of the few comforts a Marine or Soldier has is in his weapon.

If you want to buy a ChiCom knockoff for your range toy, go for it. Don't EVER try to convince those on the pointy end of the spear that crap like that is "just as good" as the real deal.

If you want one simple easy challenge......You and I can go to the range. You with your SPOT, Tacpoint, etc. and me with my Comp M2 in a LaRue mount. We will stand at the 50 yard line, hold our rifles by the barrel and skip them accross the range to the 25 yard line. I gaurantee I will be able to pick mine up and engage a target with no loss of zero. (I have done this test). I seriously doubt that your SPOT will even turn on.

If your life is cheap, bet it on a cheap optic. Me? I figure my life is worth more than the $500 optic I use on my Patrol Rifle.

Max100.......

Have you EVER been anywhere that you had to bet your life (and that of your teammates) on your equipment? If not, then STFU because there are many of us who do EVERYDAY!

MrMurphy
01-13-2008, 12:34
This is getting more and more amusing, if people took Max's idea seriously, this could get scary though.

I agree Lonewolf, the amount of abuse our M68s go through just in normal daily operations would kill off many optics (one reason for years and years I was an ironsight guy, till Jeff Gonzales told me what the Aimpoint had been through in SEAL and other unit testing). Personal experience has definitely backed his statements up.

Skintop911
01-13-2008, 15:32
Here is a picture of one of my Aimpoint copies mounted on a Mossberg SPX. It is about 3 years old and has been on several different guns and thousands of rounds and it is still going strong.

Is that M3 a knock-off too?

Pat _Rogers
01-13-2008, 15:55
One of the things that the Aimpoint Mil Biz guy- Freddie Blish- does at demos is to fire a group- take the Aimpoint off and throw it across the range. He then retrieves it and fires another group (which are in the same place).

Just as good, isn't, and i despise mediocrity. I have a fair idea what works, and while i am open to changes, i don't want to step down the evolutionary ladder either...

bdh_1
01-13-2008, 16:59
I can't say I recall Pat ever steering anyone wrong with his advice. That's a rare feat in the errornet.

Tasco must be "as good as" since there are a few that have never broke and a scope is simple to understand and clone. Hesse must be "as good as" since an AR is fairly simple to understand and clone. Airsoft flip up rear sights must be "as good as" since an Arms 40 is simple to understand and clone.

Be forewarned though, do not put that aimpoint clone in your mouth. That lead paint causes health problems. :)

Pat _Rogers
01-13-2008, 18:24
BDH1- Thanks for the kind words!

Be forewarned though, do not put that aimpoint clone in your mouth. That lead paint causes health problems.

That however, is Priceless!:rofl:

Michigantrainer
01-13-2008, 20:23
Wow.

Brother Pat...I'm LOST for words.....:rofl:
Steve

V42
01-13-2008, 20:37
Be forewarned though, do not put that aimpoint clone in your mouth. That lead paint causes health problems. :)

Which is the only reason you don't see them being sold at Toys R' Us.

Pat _Rogers
01-14-2008, 04:56
Hey Steve!
How are you doing???:whistling:

mitchshrader
01-14-2008, 05:12
i have some cheap optics. i have spares for em. they're disposable junk that works till it breaks. that's how I think about em.

duty gear isn't disposable junk that works till it breaks. it's not the same level of performance or reliability or cost.

definitions of 'reliable' relate to purpose. a trainers purpose and an individuals range trip are very different, and their needs therefore are different.

there's a lot of headbanging that doesn't allow for differing definitions due to differing perspectives. at the point of sale, it does depend on your needs, not someone elses.. whether those needs are for cheap experience or for reliable life saving equipment.

if what you need is hands on for cheap, trigger time without breaking the bank, a clone may be perfect. if what you need is a duty tool with an indefinite but extended lifespan under rough treatment, a clone may be blasphemy.

stipulating differences of perspective and definition and intent often suffices to eliminate the arguement. you ain't necessarily a dumbass cause you need practice equipment worse than duty gear.

seanmac45
01-14-2008, 05:45
stipulating differences of perspective and definition and intent often suffices to eliminate the arguement. you ain't necessarily a dumbass cause you need practice equipment worse than duty gear.


Nobody said that.

What IS being said is that it is dangerous for internet Tactical Teddies to go on the web and make pronouncements from on high about lifesaving gear about which they know squat.

It's also a good idea to withdraw from the arena if you are overmatched and being severely drubbed (not you mitchstrader).

Michigantrainer
01-14-2008, 07:28
Pat, doing well,

making popcorn and sitting back and enjoying...

guys like this are what gets good guys/gals dead.

Ahh we can always blame Al gore.....he invented this thing right?

Pat _Rogers
01-14-2008, 14:39
Mitchschrader- I don't disagree with anything you wrote there.
What someone buys is entirely up to them, and they will reap the benefits or suffer the consequences of that purchase.

Max stated something that is patently false- that the clone is "just as durable as" the Aimpoint.
He was unable to come up with proof is all that this thread turned into.

Your mission drives the gear train- not the other way around. Buying something to play air flaccid is one thing. Buying gear to fight with is another.
But claiming that something is "just as good as" without having any evidence of that is something else entirely.

vrex
01-14-2008, 20:24
This has been a good and useful thread to me. I agree that the aimpoint is a wonderful tool that you can stake your life on, and knowing that, that in any real world screnario where one would need to defend themselves and family, or just have a solid piece of equipment for training and competition, why would you want to bet on anything else? Yet still I wrestle, very hard with spending 500+ on a single red dot sight, I don't know why, while I know it is the right thing to do, something still seems a bit crazy about it. Especially with the ridiculous cost of ammo right now.....

I have read many threads on ar15.com of folks using and abusing certain clones, and of them holding their zeros and so on...when one can be had for less that 100-the temptation is there...will it work? if it works and turns out to be a good piece of equipment and serves it's purpose, you win. If it does not, your 550 dollar aimpoint goes to 650-no big change.

Something to think about I guess.

mitchshrader
01-14-2008, 22:26
nah, i wasn't trying to take sides, i was trying to DEFINE sides.

if there's any hint of ADVICE in there, it's for novices not to be so quick to presume that their needs and perspectives are common to others..

but no offense.. those novice perspectives are PRETTY EASY TO RECOGNIZE.. and emphasising the limits of those perspectives is easier for NON-NOVICES.

it ain't you owe em gentle correction exactly.. it's that until they CHANGE PERSPECTIVES they don't get it. however you can arrange that, gets the job done. till then, you get arguement cause they don't know any better. their error is due to the fact their LIMITED EXPERIENCE contradicts common wisdom. you say pay the money, they say 'why, the cheapie works?'.. and you go AAAARGH!

uhm.. did you fall in luv with your first girlfriend? hmm?

did your dad go AAAARGH? if not, you got lucky twice.. :)

no use to kick em till they know why. it don't help much..

MAX100
01-15-2008, 02:26
What most of you need to realize is you will never see any of the top masters in the "Business" that will endorse a low cost optic no matter how well it performs in the field. They would be laughed out of the business. A lot of these guys are paid and or get perks for product endorsements. If a Aimpoint copy made it through ten of Pat's 3 day classes without any loss of zero or a malfunction does anyone think that he or any of these top professionals would go on the record and say, "the made in China Aimpoint copies that are sold at some Airsoft websites and firearms websites is an excellent very durable low cost alternative the Aimpoint ML2". It would never happen. Even most of you, are very reluctant to come forward and say you own a Aimpoint Copy and think they perform very well and like them. The fact is most of them know very little about any of these low cost optics because they turn a blind eye to them. When these optics show up in one of their classes they either ignore them, make fun of them or put them down. We who try them out in the field and have personally used them know more about them than they do.These guys would be the last ones I would go to for advice if I were looking for a excellent low cost optic. If I was looking for a EOtech, Aimpoint, ACOG, these guys would be the ones go to for advice.

You all have to realize, This is a Business they are running and they have reputations to protect.


GC

mitchshrader
01-15-2008, 02:53
it's also a business with a real negative response to advice that doesn't work in a crunch. a guy sells ONE knife that breaks in combat, he may never live it down. If your cheap clone works every time but once, and that once gets a guy maimed, you want to look him in the eye later? I don't.

there's a downside to cutting corners that isn't obvious till you miss one. it might not be YOU that suffers.

what i do for me, and what i'll recommend to strangers, isn't identical. risks i'll take knowingly, i won't ask someone else to take on my word it's safe.

i am an anti-AR guy, i haven't any and won't have any, don't LIKE AR's per se. I've recommended em repeatedly to guys who NEEDED THAT THING and asked the question that was the answer to.

Claiming others have a commercial axe to grind is likely true some of the time, but claiming it wrongly is insulting.

Unless you personally know it to be a fact, be aware you may be giving offense for little cause. *I* don't have any dollars attached to your choice of optics, and would suggest cheap for practice and expensive for duty. When you got one *.. . whats a couple bucks?

MrMurphy
01-15-2008, 02:55
I'm not highly paid, particularly listened to, or even all that smart. I'm just an active duty E-4, deployed doing my job.

I don't have tons of $ to toss around, but I pay, out of pocket, for quality gear that is not always supplied to me to do my job better. Any time I can get something that WORKS WELL cheap, I will do so. But experience counts and I go out of my way to make sure the kids in my unit (some of them, right out of tech school with no experience, or just not knowledgeable in the equipment arena) don't get junk. I make a couple grand a month so any good stuff I buy I'm definitely losing a significant amount of my cash that can be used for other things.

If you want to toss a dot optic on a .22 for training or playing around, sure, get a Chinese copy, a B27 is not going to kill you if you're running a drill with a 10/22 and the dot dies halfway through it.

But anyone who advocates using an Airsoft-type clone made by some unknown Chinese factory for serious business, ie self defense, home defense, police work or military, needs their head examined. If you can't afford to spend that much for a heavily tested, highly reliable optic, keep on trucking with the old school irons for a while. Toss an XS tritium front sight on it (around $90) and here's a novel concept, SAVE MONEY! If I can afford to spend $150 on a light system for my rifle, i guarantee most middle-class homeowners can buy McD's a few times less a month and afford an Aimpoint or Eotech.

You pay top dollar for quality optics because they are quality, tested military grade optics. Stop *****ing about the cost, and save your pennies. The odds of you using it in a combat situation are statistically tiny, but I know if I was in a situation in my house, with a carbine in hand, I would want the real thing, not a "should be just as good" on top of my rifle, just like I do every day on duty.

Pat _Rogers
01-15-2008, 05:28
Max- I realize that you are significantly behind the power curve about these things, but the M2 has been replaced by the M3, which has been replaced by the M4, which has been supplemented by the Micro T1.
Are you going to now fantasize that the knock offs are equally "just as good as"?

Re business. Of course this is a business. Surely you can't think this is a non profit organization. Your store is a business.
The difference here is this.
I have the opportunity to T&E a wide variety of equipment. Most of what i have the opportunity to test, i won't even accept. The reasons include previous experience with the company or article, their advertising campaign, where it is manufactured and other reasons.
Of those items that it do test include those which have real world application. I will generally run them in students hands for cycles that include a fair number of rounds put downrange.

I am aware that my carbines are a billboard, and therefore i will only use those items/ guns that have proven themselves operationally and in training.
The garbage will not see the light of day.
That is my ethical responsibility.
Yours is apparently to increase the sale of knock off, unauthorized copies to the unknowing, and claiming that you would stake your life on them.
Max, have you ever had to face another man in combat?
Yesterday a Service solicited an RFI for a day optic for machine guns. Can you imagine what group was not represented?
Considering your posts here, probably not. But those makers with a proven record in combat sat in.
No chicom garbage made an attempt- for a number of reasons.

The ammunition you provide me is truly Priceless.

MARSH1
01-15-2008, 12:33
Don't worry there are enough of you guys around to set them straight. I have seen a couple and have heard about some of the real Aimpoints go out and have to be sent back for repair. I guess that is what all the extra cost is for, the 10 year Warranty. It is good that the ones in Iraq, whose lives depend on them, have spare replacements.
GC

I have seen more than one Mercedes break down so that proves they are no better than a Yugo!! :brickwall:

Michigantrainer
01-15-2008, 20:06
Some people shouldnt have oxygen
and some shouldnt be allowed to post on the net.

MAX100
01-16-2008, 09:31
Michigantrainer, I agree. I was thinking the same thing.

Here is a Abuse test done on the Aimpoint copy by a member at AR15.COM. They have had some very heated discussions on the copy over there as well. This not the only test review I have read on the Aimpoint copies. There are others that have tested them and got very similar results. One the members decided to see for himself if the copies will hold up under abuse. Like I said in my posts I have dropped mine a few times from about 8 feet to the ground and it bounced around. It still holds zero with no malfunctions. This test is for those of you thinking about purchasing a excellent low cost alternative to the over priced Swedish made Aimpoint ML2. The Tacpoint is now being made by the same company in China that makes all of the Aimpoint copies. This post is from four years ago. The Aimpoint copies are not new to the market. They have been out for years and very well liked by the ones that actually own them. If anyone doesn't agree with this test, do your own and come back and post your results. Otherwise if you don't actually own one you are just giving lip service.


Aimpoint ML2 copy Abuse test "by photoman", AR15.com member, a Cop and experienced shooter.

Back when the whole Tacpoint/Aimpoint mess blew up here on AR15.com I was contemplating buying an Aimpoint for my M4 clone. I wasn't really sure about it though. I have a couple shooting buddies that have them on their guns so I've shot with them before. But I just wasn't sure that a red to sight was something I wanted. I didn't want to drop $300+ on a sight that I might end up not liking and than have to sell it.

Enter the Tacpoint:

I decided in October of 2004 that I'd pick up a Tacpoint Tac-1(Blue Ring)from Texas Tactical to see how I liked using a red dot. Seeing that the Tacpoint is a copy of the Aimpoint it was the logical, and less expesive route to take to see if I would like an Aimpoint on my gun.

But that wasn't the only reason I picked it up. I wanted to abuse this optic. I wanted to beat it like a rented mule to see how it would hold up to rough use.

First Impressions:

When the Tacpoint showed up at my door it was 1 day before I was to leave for a Defensive Edge Carbine 1&2 class. I didn't have a lot of time to look it over and play with it. I had to get it mounted and sighted in. Before mounting it in a quick release QRW mount I played with it real quick, checking the power knob, it was nice for all of the first day. It wasn't mushy between power settings, and the click when it got to a power setting was pretty audible. After a day though it started getting mushy, and the click wasn't as audible. I've had a couple instances since when the scope would turn on inside the gun case. I don't like that, but what are ya going to do. The caps that came with it looked rather flimsy, but so far they have held up. Other than those and a few other small things I'll get into later, I am not really disapointed with the Tacpoint, though I didn't hold any high expectations either.

Let the Beatings Begin:

After getting the optic mounted I headed to the range, besides the initial zero I had one other objetive. To start abusing this scope. I sighted it in at 50 yards. After that I removed the optic from the gun and threw it down range about 25 yards(I was the only one there). I retrived it, put it back on the gun and fired 10 rounds. Zero was still good. So i took it off and threw it again. After putting it back on the rifle I put another 10rounds down range, no shift in zero. Ok so third time is a charm right. Nope, I threw it down range again and whatched it bounce end over end a couple times, put it on the rifle and shot another 10 rounds. Still no zero shift. Hmmmm, I dumped what was left of the 30rd mag and packed up.

The next day I was off to the Defensive Edge class. I had planned to use the Tacpoint for this class, but decided that since this was my first formal carbine class I would use my regular set up. The Tacpoint did see some use. I used it on my backup gun for 3 drills and a total of 30 rounds or so. It also got a few good tosses into the air the first morning of class, with no harm done to the optic.

About a week after the class I met up with MisterPX to work on some of the stuff we learned. The Tacpoint was going to get it's first serious range time, but not without a good throw to rough it up a bit first. After that I put it on the rifle and went to loading my pistol mags. In the process I managed to bump the AR and sent it crashing to the ground oops. The Tacpoint took the brunt of the fall from about 3ft up onto the hard gravel. It was no worse for the wear, and doens't really show any signs of the fall. After that It was on to the shooting. I put about 500 rounds down range that day, and the Tacpoint never missed a beat.

After that I decided that it needed to feel a little more power under it, so I mounted it on my 308 and started banging away, I'd shoot 10 rounds, throw the scope, shoot 10 throw the scope and so on. I did that for 100 rounds. It's still ticking. So I switched it over to my 30-06 and shot 40 rounds from that, tossing the scope after 20 rounds, it still kept going. After that range day the Tacpoint sat in the trunk of my car through deer season until thanksgiving weekend.

Thanksgiving weekend I met up with MisterPX, El_Roto and Mugenlude to do a little shooting. I dug the Tacpoint out of the car and found it actually had stayed turned off. I turned it on and it fired right up the dot was a little weak at first but the optic was cold so it should be xpected. I've seen similar happen with Aimpoints and have seen some discussion of this aorund the board too. I didn't shoot to much with the Tacpoint that day, but it did get thrown around some more. In fact on one throw it hit that cold hard ground with enough force to pop the lens cover off the rear lens this was the first time this had happened. No scratches, scrapes or cracked lenses. I was happy. And those flimsy scope covers, well they are still flimsy, but they haven't broken or come apart yet.


The Abuse to come:

I still have a couple guns that the Tacpoint needs to be tried out on, including the 12ga and the AK. I also want to see if a buddy will let me mount it on his 1919 semi-auto with a crank on it. I'd love to crank off a belt or two to see how the Tacpoint holds up on that. I still have a couple of other tests I'd like to do to it too. One being a water test, both salt water and fresh water. But before I do those I want to run it through a complete carbine course, good thing the Wisconsin crew is doing another one in May.

It has spent 24hrs burried in snow recently and come out working. The dot on the first setting was a bit weak at first but once it warmed up a bit it went right back to being nice and bright again. It's going back out for another 24hr's in the snow soon.

I'm still trying to think of a few more things to do to this optic, to test it's durability. But I think so far what it's been through has proven one thing. It can take some abuse and keep ticking.

I never looked at the tacpoint as a replacment/alternative to the Aimpoint in a life or death situation, like say over in the sandbox, or even as a sight I'd put on a gun that I was planing to use as a home defense weapon, or duty weapon if I were a LEO. But if you want something less expesive for a rifle that you only shoot at the range, or that isn't your go to gun when things go bump in the night, the Tacpoint seems to be a good buy to me at this time. That may change as I beat and abuse it some more. Right now though, I'm impressed with the "toy" optic. Though I'm still not sold on dot sights. I know the advantages of them, but somethings aren't for everybody. So even if I decide I don't want to get an Aimpoint for the M4 clone, I think I'll keep this tacpoint around if it survives the next couple months and use it for a .22lr upper for tree rat hunting.

I'll come back and update this as I abuse the optic more, and i'll update this after the DE carbine class too.


Here is my Tacpoint update.........

I replaced the caps with Butler Creek caps from the get go. I have nothing to say about the durability of the factory caps.

I ran the unit at max power for a week straight, at the end of the week the dot was too dim for bright sunlight use. Still good enough for shaded areas or indoors. I stopped the testing at that point due to it being mounted on a duty weapon that must be kept serviceable at all times.

The clicks are 1/2 MOA it took me 9 rounds (3 round groups) to zero at 50 yards. I was using one inch grid paper, the clicks proved to be accurate.

I used the Tacpoint at a L.E. CQB course. It was subjected to the typical shocks and bumps consistant with CQB work and held it zero.

I belive it is a fine sight for the money.

More to follow......

The Aimpoint Copy Abuse test Link: Read the post for yourself and all of the replies to the post. I hope this helps some of you out.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=208728&page=4


GC

hank2
02-02-2008, 19:04
there is only two red-dot rifle scopes in the world that matters
eo-tech and aimpoint
there is no other red-dot scopes that even comes in the where its counts
in the real world combat the ultimate testing ground where the keap gets you
killed and best keeps you alive
all the airsoft crap is a waste of hard earned money
this my own idea so when i say that mr rogers has a good points about the aimpoint system
so here is my version of the red dot scope system that the two has to offer the shooter out there
on my ar-eo-tech scope wider base of view i have older eyes so help me keep in the zone when comeing on target
on my home defense pistol set up with surefire flashlight and scope mount with aimpoint for cqb and home defense set with aimpoint add to the pistol for qiucker shots in the house and hallways as need the aimpoint seams to work better for this set up
being retired military i tell that the abuse that rifle sight goes though well kill a lesser typle sight as the other gentlemen were saying about the is aimpoint
is works in hardest work area of all combat that way you buy the best that is out there when you life is on the line

TGC100
02-03-2008, 18:48
I took Max advice and bought two of these Aimpoint copy sights. I own a Aimpoint ML2 also. The quality of these copies are excellent and work just as well as my Aimpoint ML2. It is hard to believe they can sale them so cheap for the quality. One went on my sons AR15 and the other I put on my AR10. They hold up well under the heavy recoil of my AR10. I highly recommend these Aimpoint copy sights. The mounts are well made also.

THANKS MAX!

Tom G.

smoke
02-03-2008, 19:28
I took Max advice and bought two of these Aimpoint copy sights. I own a Aimpoint ML2 also. The quality of these copies are excellent and work just as well as my Aimpoint ML2. It is hard to believe they can sale them so cheap for the quality. One went on my sons AR15 and the other I put on my AR10. They hold up well under the heavy recoil of my AR10. I highly recommend these Aimpoint copy sights. The mounts are well made also.

THANKS MAX!

Tom G.

I would like to know specifically which copy you got and where you got it from. I am looking for some decent clones for some range toys and do not need Aimpoints. I've had good luck with the Tacpoint Blue Ring and the SPOT, but am always looking for something else, especially since you can't get the Blue Rings anymore.

TGC100
02-03-2008, 20:18
I bought two off of the Airsoft Vanguard website through PayPal. The site Max suggested. It took about 7 days to get them from Hong Kong. Nice quality copies.

Tom G.

smoke
02-04-2008, 07:27
I bought two off of the Airsoft Vanguard website through PayPal. The site Max suggested. It took about 7 days to get them from Hong Kong. Nice quality copies.

Tom G.

OK, I've got more questions. Any particular one on the Vanguard site? I'm not sure if they're all the same. Does yours have multiple brightness settings only in red and if so, how many? Or does it have red & green?

TGC100
02-04-2008, 12:00
I was told they are all the same but some come with different mounts which cost more. I didn't like the white logo so I went with the one that has the engraved logo. Mine has 5 brightness levels and it is brighter on number 5 than my Aimpoint ML2 is on it's brightest setting. I guess that is part of Aimpoint extending battery life. I did some research on the net and found out that the red and green dot sight only has 2 brightness levels for red and 2 for green, 4 total.

I put a Aimpoint rubber cover on each of my AP copies and I am very pleased with how they look and perform. I read on the net that the copy magnifiers are very good and some people are buying them and using them with there Aimpoints and EOtech sights.

I am beginning to wonder why I still have my Aimpoint. Maybe I will sell it if these copies keep on performing as well as they have.

That is about all I can tell you.

Tom G.

williamN
02-05-2008, 19:18
Thanks MAX100, I just ordered one of the Aimpoint clones from the link provided.

Vic303
02-05-2008, 19:41
One can always buy an older Aimpoint, not a clone, for well under $150 and they work just fine. The ONLY drawback to the older pre-clone models is the shorter battery life.

MAX100
02-05-2008, 20:09
williamN Please provide some feedback on the Aimpoint copy when you receive it and have a chance to try it out. I and many would like to here what you think.


GC

MARSH1
02-06-2008, 07:51
If anyone is interested in one of the Aimpoint Copies here is the website that has the nicest of the Aimpoint copies. He is located in Hong Kong China and it takes about 5 business days to get your order after it is shipped. You pay by PayPal so it is safe. Prices include shipping cost.

Aimpoint Copy Link:
http://www.airsoftvanguard.com/index.php?p=1&act=search&lang=en&favorite=aimpoint&submit.x=15&submit.y=20

Here is a picture of one of my Aimpoint copies mounted on a Mossberg SPX. It is about 3 years old and has been on several different guns and thousands of rounds and it is still going strong.

GC


The products in this link are not clones/copies!!! They are illegal counterfeits with the Aimpoint logo on them. BIG DIFFERENCE. I just bought a Millett scope that was made in China, it is a great value. There are plenty of good imported products so that is not the issue.

smoke
02-06-2008, 20:37
The products in this link are not clones/copies!!! They are illegal counterfeits with the Aimpoint logo on them. BIG DIFFERENCE. I just bought a Millett scope that was made in China, it is a great value. There are plenty of good imported products so that is not the issue.

They are not illegal counterfeits. They're Airsoft copies. They even tell you that. Because of restrictive gun laws in other countries, Airsoft is very big. From what I understand, there's as many gear queers in Airsoft as there is in AR's, etc. Thus the copy, right down to the logo.

Further, in order to be illegal, the Chinese company that made them would need to give a crap about US patent/TM laws. It's obvious that they don't and there's not much that can be done about them, except not buying them if you're hung up on that.

You could also enjoy them for what they are or don't buy them. Simple as that.

Would I bet my life on one? Probably not. Would I put one on a range toy? Yep!

MARSH1
02-06-2008, 21:01
They are not illegal counterfeits. They're Airsoft copies. They even tell you that. Because of restrictive gun laws in other countries, Airsoft is very big. From what I understand, there's as many gear queers in Airsoft as there is in AR's, etc. Thus the copy, right down to the logo.

Further, in order to be illegal, the Chinese company that made them would need to give a crap about US patent/TM laws. It's obvious that they don't and there's not much that can be done about them, except not buying them if you're hung up on that.

You could also enjoy them for what they are or don't buy them. Simple as that.

Would I bet my life on one? Probably not. Would I put one on a range toy? Yep!


When you steal another companies copyrighted logo it is illegal, even in China. Hard to fault them for not enforcing it when we don't enforce our own immigration laws. It is illegal to knowingly buy a counterfeit but I admit no one is going to jail for buying one. The big problem with these is that many people will be ripped off when some of these are resold as the real thing for a couple of hundred dollars.

There are plenty of low priced red dot sights from legitimate companies and clones such as the Sightmark and Tacpoint. IMHO they are OK training pieces to see if you like the format or to hold you over until you can afford something better. If you are using the gun in a self defense situation just take it off and use the iron sights. You do train with your iron sight don't you? Also the quality of the imports can vary greatly why not buy a brand with some US support and a real warranty.

MAX100
02-10-2008, 19:01
Here is one of my AP copies on my AK47. It has had about 1000 rounds through it and has held zero on the mark.



http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/MAX100/AK47-11.jpg

WASR10 AK47 refinished
UTG Quad-Rail hand guard
UTG Tri-Rail barrel mount
Pro Mag fore end grip
CAA pistol grip
CAA 6 position butt stock with adj cheek piece
Bolt hold open safety with extended bolt release smooth and lightened for one finger operation
Power Custom tactical mag release
Aimpoint Copy with A.R.M.S QR 22M68 Copy mount
Arsenal waffle mag and fits very fit



GC

ussoldier202
01-14-2010, 23:21
That maybe true, but I seen 3 times a M4 getting ran over by a M1151 here in Iraq and the AP was in pieces. Im not saying the clones are as good as the real thing but the Aimpoints arent as great as alot claim. Im going on 9months in Iraq and had to replace the Aimpoint twice and they have a problem with the reticle going out after each shot. What im getting at is its a good optic but not worth the price tag

smoke
01-15-2010, 09:39
That maybe true, but I seen 3 times a M4 getting ran over by a M1151 here in Iraq and the AP was in pieces. Im not saying the clones are as good as the real thing but the Aimpoints arent as great as alot claim. Im going on 9months in Iraq and had to replace the Aimpoint twice and they have a problem with the reticle going out after each shot. What im getting at is its a good optic but not worth the price tag

If you are having problems with the dot going out on each shot, clean all the contact points in, on, and around the battery, battery compartment and cap. Also switch to a 1 pc battery if you happen to be using stacked little ones.

Don't think any optic will handle being run over by a vehicle, just saying!