Massad Ayoob: Is A .38 Snub Enough? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Moonfish
01-12-2008, 12:09
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_149_24/ai_65910638

Is A .38 Snub Enough
American Handgunner, Nov, 2000 by Massad Ayoob

A student asked me recently, "If you tell us we can get by with a .38 Special snubby as a minimum carry gun, how come you're always carrying a full-size service pistol on your hip and just use the .38 for backup?"

He had a point. I was due for a two-week training tour in places where the dress code was such that I couldn't be visibly armed, nor could I wear "concealing garments" while lecturing or supervising classroom training. I decided to put my money where my mouth was and pack a couple of .38 snubs.

These are good guns, and accurate. If you do your part, they pass the litmus test of five consecutive headshots at 25 yards. You just have to work a little harder.

Needing maximum concealment, I chose a couple of S&W "hammerless" Centennials. The shape of this model lets the hand get higher on the backstrap for maximum recoil control with hot loads. A Model 640 in stainless was my "main gun," backed by the Airweight Model 442.

I chose to leave the titanium Model 342 AirLite Ti at home: it won't work reliably with my favorite .38 carry load, the +P lead semiwadcutter hollowpoint, because the violent recoil in its 11 oz. structure pulls lead bullets loose from their casings while still in the chambers. This doesn't happen with the Airweight or all-steel models.

A lot of perps have been shot with that all-lead .38 hollowpoint, many from snubbies, and it's the odds-on choice for "best defense load" in the caliber. Hell, even Dr. Martin Fackler and Evan Marshall, who can disagree on whether it's partly cloudy or partly sunny, agree on that.

The all-lead hollowpoint delivers roughly the stopping likelihood of a .45 ball round in the same spot, with less chance of over-penetration. The reason is the soft lead bullet, which starts to deform as soon as it hits, even with heavy clothing involved. There's no tough copper jacket to peel back before it can start to mushroom.

The recoil is snappy, but nothing a trained person can't handle. Police departments that used this round before the coming of the auto pistols-- Chicago, Miami, St. Louis, FBI, RCMP-- never *****ed about its effectiveness. They only switched to autos because they wanted more shots.

Firepower Factor

A J-frame S&W carries only five rounds. You'd want more than that if you were shooting it Out with an armed robbery gang. Individual self-defense, however, generally requires less firepower.

When in doubt, the second .38 takes the worry out. You can get 10 rounds out of two 5-shot .38s almost as fast as from one 10-shot auto. And with the two little revolvers, you can always have one gun in reach of either hand. This can be a tactical lifesaver.

During that trip, I fired a 120 round point-shooting class with Ed Lovette. I was the only wheelgunner on the line, and the course called for 10-shot sequences. I was at no disadvantage with two J-frames, backed up by HKS speed loaders and Bianchi Speed Strips, and kept up with the autos well enough.

Discretion Factor

Folks carry .38 snubs when concealment is really important. I was in that boat. I packed a wardrobe of half a dozen holsters: left and right hand inside-the-waistband, same for the outside-the-belt scabbards, and one ankle and one pocket rig. On the rare occasions when I could wear a jacket, it was the belt rigs; if I could wear an untucked polo, it was the IWBs; and, most of the time, the 640 was in the side trouser pocket and the Airweight on the ankle.

The guns went undetected, worn daily in public for the two weeks. I had a sense of "taking off shoes and putting on slippers," in that I appreciated not having to wear the usual concealing garments. There was no sense of a "ballistic inferiority complex." I knew either gun would do the job if I needed it.

My opinion was reinforced: when discretion is critical, the properly loaded snubnose .38 Special revolver is an acceptable minimum. I will admit, however, that as soon as I got home, I strapped on a .45.

By definition, "adequate" is enough. But, by the same definition, "more than adequate" is better.

COPYRIGHT 2000 Publishers' Development Corporation
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group

MCPreacher
01-12-2008, 13:00
I have been wearing 2 snubbies for a while now and I don't feel under-armed. My area is not too bad on crime, and the majority of the crime is confined to a few bad area. The random encounter is still a concern.

I just love how easily concealed these things are...

SDGlock23
01-12-2008, 16:26
I just love my 642. But honestly I do feel undergunned with it if it's the only thing on me at any given time. I'm alright with it as long as I have one my Glocks on my belt, then I think of it as what it truly is, a secondary gun.

Glockanatorrrrr
01-13-2008, 07:39
I just love my 642. But honestly I do feel undergunned with it if it's the only thing on me at any given time. I'm alright with it as long as I have one my Glocks on my belt, then I think of it as what it truly is, a secondary gun.


I pocket my 340pd. Before that I pocket carried a KelTec P3at. I felt undergunned with that so stepped up to a J frame. Packed wth .357 I no longer feel undergunned. Actually first 2 are .38+p the last 3 are .357.

LSP972
01-13-2008, 19:01
I shot my new 342 this morning. Numerous rounds of Winchester #X38SPD (158 LSWC hollow point, +P .38 Special) showed a grand total of one THOUSANDTHS of an inch of "bullet pull"; this measured on several cartridges that had been in the cylinder for four rounds fired.

Same deal with Speer 135gr Gold Dot +P; the amount of "bullet pull" was barely measurable.

FWIW, I did see this issue big-time with full-house .357s in the 360PD. But I fired a lot of +P .38s in that gun with no discernable bullet pull.

IOW, the bullet pull issue with +P .38s in a Ti-Scan AirLite is NOT an issue, as far as I'm concerned.

.

Glockanatorrrrr
01-13-2008, 19:37
I shot my new 342 this morning. Numerous rounds of Winchester #X38SPD (158 LSWC hollow point, +P .38 Special) showed a grand total of one THOUSANDTHS of an inch of "bullet pull"; this measured on several cartridges that had been in the cylinder for four rounds fired.

Same deal with Speer 135gr Gold Dot +P; the amount of "bullet pull" was barely measurable.

FWIW, I did see this issue big-time with full-house .357s in the 360PD. But I fired a lot of +P .38s in that gun with no discernable bullet pull.

IOW, the bullet pull issue with +P .38s in a Ti-Scan AirLite is NOT an issue, as far as I'm concerned.

.

You would see it with anything less that the 125 grain .357. That's why it is stamped on the side. I haven't noticed any bullet pull with Gold Dots of Federal. That's the only ammo I've used though. Congrats on your 342. How did it shoot?

LSP972
01-15-2008, 05:51
You would see it with anything less that the 125 grain .357.


I also saw it with 145gr Silvertips and 158gr JHPs (in .357). In fact, of the eight different .357 loads tried in the 360PD, the ONLY one that didn't exhibit any bullet pull was the Federal 130gr HydraShok; and that included some 110gr Remingtons- all factory loads, of course.

IOW, cartridge construction (the amount and/or type of crimp) has more to do with the issue than bullet weight.

The 342 shot as expected... every time, and painfully... ;)

.

Glockanatorrrrr
01-15-2008, 09:07
Painful is correct! But it is the ideal carry gun. I love mine. I'm heading to the range today. I'm going to run some different ammo today and see what I come up with.

eddief4
01-15-2008, 14:12
IMHO, the .38 is a great defense round and with 6 shots, i wouldn't feel undergunned. snubby's are SWEET!!! :wavey:

mini14jac
01-16-2008, 06:51
I've only shot .38 standard and +p in my 340PD.
When shooting .38s, there is enough room in the cylinder that any bullet pull would go unnoticed.
Shooting .357s may be a different matter.

For everyday life in the small town I live in, I accept the limitations of a 5 shot J frame.
If going to a larger city, or different situation, a higher capacity 9mm goes on my belt.

I've carred just about every tiny, lightweight, .22, .32, and .380 that's been produced in the last 15 years.
When carrying those guns, if I thought about it, I always wished I had bigger bullets on board.
Carried a Kahr PM9 in my pocket for a while, but it's weight and blocky profile limited the times I could carry that way.
For the last few months, nothing has met my "easy to carry, adequate caliber" standards, like a Scandium .38/.357.
And for me, the J frame is easier to carry in a pocket than the PM9 was. :shocked:

collim1
01-17-2008, 00:22
I just love my 642. But honestly I do feel undergunned with it if it's the only thing on me at any given time. I'm alright with it as long as I have one my Glocks on my belt, then I think of it as what it truly is, a secondary gun.

I carry my 442 as a primary only when concealment is maximum priority. for example church and weddings, when attire does not make CCW IWB or OWB easy.

My 442 gets the most use in a vest carrier under my work uniform. On-duty BUG is where my 442 really shines.

Otherwise my 226 or G23 IWB in a CTAC is my normal EDC.

prairieviper
01-19-2008, 11:45
It all depends on your personal circumstances and what you feel comfortable with but my 637 snubby and a speedloader is all I need for off duty.

Dot_mdb
01-19-2008, 19:37
The more practiced the shooter the more adequate the .38 snub is.

Bill

Glockanatorrrrr
01-20-2008, 08:38
The more practiced the shooter the more adequate the .38 snub is.

Bill

Good point. Then again shot placement is the key.

paccw
01-20-2008, 11:07
You can buy a press and one crimp die to improve the factory crimp and stop all bullets from coming loose.You can then shoot any factory ammo and this will even help accuracy.You can't hurt or mess up ammo with this crimp die.

All for about $40.00 shipped

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=807734&t=11082005

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=469800&t=11082005

BarkinDog
02-07-2008, 14:29
IOW, the bullet pull issue with +P .38s in a Ti-Scan AirLite is NOT an issue, as far as I'm concerned.
.


I had some S&B Lead round nose rounds, I got a box by mistake when buying about a dozen boxes of practice ammo. I normally use FMJ. The lead bullets pulled at least 1/8" and jammed up my 340PD. I only carry the 340PD with Speer gold dots for short barrels.

Dean
02-07-2008, 15:19
The more practiced the shooter the more adequate the .38 snub is.

Bill

+1
Only I might say "The more tactically proficient the shooter"...

Mushinto
02-08-2008, 14:39
Interesting rationalizations here. A single snubby is a gun to carry when you just can't carry a gun.

But, better that, than nothing.

ML

LSP972
02-09-2008, 06:36
I had some S&B Lead round nose rounds...

There you go.

I was speaking of real ammunition... ;)

.

Dogbite
02-16-2008, 11:39
I don't feel under gunned with my 638 bodyguard at all. One snubbie, no problem for me. I have shot it a bunch, and i know i can hit with it. I carry a speed loader or 2, and i don't worry about it. Also, there is another thing to consider. I can keep my hand on my gun, and ready to draw VERY fast while it is in my right pocket, if it looks like the situation around me is going south. My buddies, with all their autos in strong side/sob holsters take longer to draw when its time than i do from my pocket holster. We did some comparisons, and they were in awe at how fast i could draw and fire from my pocket..they admitted that they would have been shot at least once before they could get their gun out...something to think about my friends.

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