Glock 21 SF Magazine

[NiteQwill]

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question... But are the 21 and 21 SF magazine interchangeable? I want to make sure I'm not buying the wrong mag on glockparts.com

[Arc Angel]

NOT on a G-21SF - OK!

[NiteQwill]

NOT on a G-21SF - OK!

I'm a little confused by your response. Are you saying that a 21 mag will NOT work on a 21 SF.

I have a 21 SF and looking for a spare magazine...

[I.B.M.]

The 21SF will not accept the OLD-STYLE mags.........meaning the ones without the cut-out in the front. I presume you have some of the new ones to reference. The new ones (of course) have a little place in the front where some of the plastic coating is missing and it is bare metal exposed, I guess for the ambi mag release thing. If you have an "old-school" G 21 like I have, you can use EITHER mag. :) HTH

[NiteQwill]

Well, I have a Cali version of the 21 SF. So, it does NOT have an ambi release. It's a single sided release with standard Glock rail.

[MarcDW]

... it does NOT have an ambi release. It's a single sided release with standard Glock rail.

Then you can use any G21 magazine.
Good choice!

[Arc Angel]

I'm a little confused by your response. Are you saying that a 21 mag will NOT work on a 21 SF.

I have a 21 SF and looking for a spare magazine...

OK, I take what I originally said back. California Glocks appear to be different. The magazine catch is only different IF the frame has an ambidextrous magazine release. So, according to people who should know, either style of magazine should work in your California SF Glock. ;)

[NiteQwill]

Yes! Doesn't matter if the release is ambi or not. The magazine catches are entirely different between the two frames. An SF Glock frame will only lock onto an SF magazine.

A standard frame Glock will accept either magazine. Clear as mud? ;)

Argh! That sucks... Time to look elsewhere..:crying:

[sthncmft]

Just A Warning: I Left One Of My 21sf’s Loaded 13 Plus 1 For About Three Weeks After I Got It. The Ambidextrerous Mag Release Stayed In The Release Position After I Pushed It In. Something Stretched Or Jammed. I Took It Apart And Oiled It. Reassembled It. It Works Now, But Not Like It Did When New………just A Suggestion, If You Plan On Storing It For Long Periods Of Time, Load It 12 Plus 1…..

[Arc Angel]

I'm starting to regret answering this one. Maybe you have to live in California in order to know what Glock is selling there. What style of magazine did your 21SF come with?

The SF magazines have a cutout with a silver bar showing across the front of the magazine. The older standard magazines just have a dent in the side of the magazine body.

If your Glock came with SF magazines then that is what you should order. Maybe Butch will post a picture showing you the differences between the two magazine catches. The SF frame grabs the magazine across the front; the standard frame grabs the magazine from only one side and has a small metal rod (the spring) sticking up right in the middle of the inside front strap.

I'll look for pictures and post whatever I find.

Eureka! These photos are from Butch:

Standard G-21 Frame - (Inside the frame. Looking down from the top.)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/Me_2U/GlockStandardMagazineCatch.jpg

G-21SF Frame - (Inside the frame. Looking down from the top.)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/Me_2U/GlockAmbiSFMagazineCatch.jpg

Now pick the right magazine for whichever frame you've got. Remember a standard frame will accept either magazine; but, an SF frame WITH an ambi magazine release will only accept an SF magazine.

[NiteQwill]

I'm starting to regret answering this one. Maybe you have to live in California in order to know what Glock is selling there. What style of magazine did your 21SF come with?

The SF magazines have a cutout with a silver bar showing across the front of the magazine. The older standard magazines just have a dent in the side of the magazine body.

If your Glock came with SF magazines then that is what you should order. Maybe Butch will post a picture showing you the differences between the two magazine catches. The SF frame grabs the magazine across the front; the standard frame grabs the magazine from only one side and has a small metal rod (the spring) sticking up right in the middle of the inside front strap.

I'll look for pictures and post whatever I find.
My 21 SF magazine has the front cutout. I wish I had better pictures. Maybe this can clarify.

Also, are all other 21 & 21SF parts... recoil spring, bottom "plug" insert, interchangeable?

This is an actual picture of the gun:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6751&d=1198916703

[Arc Angel]

.... Also, are all other 21 & 21SF parts... recoil spring, bottom "plug" insert, interchangeable?

The short answer is maybe; but, read this thread. It should answer all of your questions:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=794579

If you want to compare part numbers between these two frames, open the following link and see if the parts have identical numbers. If the numbers don't match, then, the parts are different.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=2440z21

A G-21 grip plug CANNOT be used in an SF frame. (Man, tough questions!) :supergrin:

[kpblade]

The 21SF can be had either with the ambi mag release or the "standard" mag release. The newer G21 mags have both the front cutout for the ambi release (G21SF ambi) AND the side cutout for the standard mag release (G21 and G21SF standard). The California approved G21SF has the standard mag release, so any G21 magazine, newer version or older version will work. The only other major factory part that is different for the 21SF and the 21 is the trigger housing.

[NiteQwill]

Wow, I can't believe this is harder than I initially thought. I'm glad I didn't just go out and "buy" 21 parts for my SF.

Locally, I'll try the mag. I also emailed glockparts.com for some answers and availability.

I really wanted to get a plug for it, like my 23, as it helps with reloads but will have to wait to do more research. It looks like the recoil spring should work correctly though but I'm not ordering it until I can get everything at once to save on shipping.

[miwall]

I obtained a G21SF for Christmas and, living in CA, I thought I'd get a glock rail with a single mag release. Well I now have a G21 SF with a glock rail with an ambi release. I also ordered some G21 mags from OMB for 10 bucks each. When they came, they were for single mag release only.
I made a jig out of paper by wraping the ambi mag and coloring the cut out area with a sharpie. I then colored the regular mag andcut out the area that was for the ambi release with a razorblade. I was surprised how soft the skin on the mag was. I took them to the range Sunday and was happy that they worked just fine and had no problems with 250 rounds through the total of 5 mags I had.

[NiteQwill]

I obtained a G21SF for Christmas and, living in CA, I thought I'd get a glock rail with a single mag release. Well I now have a G21 SF with a glock rail with an ambi release. I also ordered some G21 mags from OMB for 10 bucks each. When they came, they were for single mag release only.
I made a jig out of paper by wraping the ambi mag and coloring the cut out area with a sharpie. I then colored the regular mag andcut out the area that was for the ambi release with a razorblade. I was surprised how soft the skin on the mag was. I took them to the range Sunday and was happy that they worked just fine and had no problems with 250 rounds through the total of 5 mags I had.

OMB? $10?!?!?!? Where!?

[SgtRich]

Just A Warning: I Left One Of My 21sf’s Loaded 13 Plus 1 For About Three Weeks After I Got It. The Ambidextrerous Mag Release Stayed In The Release Position After I Pushed It In. Something Stretched Or Jammed. I Took It Apart And Oiled It. Reassembled It. It Works Now, But Not Like It Did When New………just A Suggestion, If You Plan On Storing It For Long Periods Of Time, Load It 12 Plus 1…..

Yikes! Has this happened to anyone else here?

[Arc Angel]

In a G-21, 12 + 1 is the correct way to load. 13 + 1 is begging for a, 'top round jam'.

This is the 3rd report I've, now, read about a less than perfect ambi-magazine release on the G-21SF.

[miwall]

NiteQwill wrote,

OMB? $10?!?!?!? Where!?

ombexpress.com is where I bought them. I had not received the gun when I ordered
them, so I didn't know I had the ambi mag release. The follower in the old mags are
different, but they worked fine at the range so I hope they will continue to do so.

[gary newport]

Wow, I can't believe this is harder than I initially thought. I'm glad I didn't just go out and "buy" 21 parts for my SF.

Locally, I'll try the mag. I also emailed glockparts.com for some answers and availability.

I really wanted to get a plug for it, like my 23, as it helps with reloads but will have to wait to do more research. It looks like the recoil spring should work correctly though but I'm not ordering it until I can get everything at once to save on shipping.

Aside from the obvious differences in the mag release (for 21SFs with the ambi release), as Butch pointed out in one of the threads referenced above, the only internal part which is different is the trigger housing.

However, the aftermarket G21 "plug" will NOT work with a G21SF because the, er, holes are not the same size.

[SgtRich]

In a G-21, 12 + 1 is the correct way to load. 13 + 1 is begging for a, 'top round jam'.

This is the 3rd report I've, now, read about a less than perfect ambi-magazine release on the G-21SF.

Regarding the 12+1 advice, just out of curiosity, why would that be? Aren't the mags designed for 13-round capacity? Are you saying that holds true for ALL G21s, not just G21 SFs? I just purchased my G21 SF and haven't fired it as yet but sthncmft's warning really bothers me. From reading GT, I've always believed that Glocks were pretty reliable pistols. Now, you say that this is the third report you've read about problems with the ambi mag release on the G21 SF.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm really curious about, and bothered by, this problem. After all, I'm betting my life on this pistol's functionality. I've owned and shot a SA XD-45, which, BTW, also has an ambi mag release, for a couple of years and have NEVER had an issue with keeping all of the mags completely filled to their 13-round capacity.

[Arc Angel]

Regarding the 12+1 advice, just out of curiosity, why would that be? Aren't the mags designed for 13-round capacity? Are you saying that holds true for ALL G21s, not just G21 SFs? I just purchased my G21 SF and haven't fired it as yet but sthncmft's warning really bothers me. From reading GT, I've always believed that Glocks were pretty reliable pistols. Now, you say that this is the third report you've read about problems with the ambi mag release on the G21 SF.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm really curious about, and bothered by, this problem. After all, I'm betting my life on this pistol's functionality. I've owned and shot a SA XD-45, which, BTW, also has an ambi mag release, for a couple of years and have NEVER had an issue with keeping all of the mags completely filled to their 13-round capacity.

:) First, I've used semiautomatic handguns all of my long life. I'm NOT just talking about Glocks, here; I'm talking about my experiences with all semiautomatic pistols in general.

It's not a question of how many rounds the magazine is designed to hold; instead, it's a matter of how much upward mechanical pressure is applied to the bottom of the slide as it travels backwards after the first chambered round is fired.

Where a Glock is concerned: 13 + 1 exerts a lot of force against the bottom of a G-21's slide; in my experience - which spreads out over a wide variety of different 45 acp ammunition - sometimes that upward mechanical pressure is too great to allow the slide to move freely in its normal fashion. When this happens, the pistol will jam before the top (13th) round is able to feed.

As far as I'm concerned all polymer frame pistols are, still, in the infancy of their development. Personally I, very deliberately, stayed away from the first and second generation Glocks; and, until very recently, all 40 caliber Glock pistols - as well. You might be surprised to know about how many personal risks I took, or how much trouble I experienced during the first 3 years that I owned my own 3rd generation Austrian frame Model G-21's.

Quite truthfully, if it weren’t for the insistent efforts and repeated demands of, both, the Portland Police Bureau and the Georgia State Patrol (Both of whom received numerous scathing criticisms on this website.) I would have, probably, sold off each of my G-21’s at sometime during last year.

(I'm glad, by the way, that I didn't!) :supergrin:

My own 3rd generation G-21’s weren’t 100% reliable until after I installed new Wolff springs and steel guide rods, and also added Glock’s new #4256-1 trigger bars. Until that moment I had frequent (5-8% of the time) failures of the slide to return to battery; and, probably because of the cheap plastic guide rods and spongy factory magazine springs that came with my pistols, other numerous failures (2-3% of the time) to feed.

Largely due to my past experiences with Glock 45 acp pistols, I would be among the very last to trust my life to or use the new ambidextrous magazine release. I’m not saying that I never will; but, I am saying that it will take years and lots of input from other more trusting souls with their new Glock pistols before I’d, personally, be willing to make this change.

If your experience with doubts and suspicions about your new Glock parallels my own, then, best of luck to you because the internet isn’t about to easily provide you with the accurate and reliable sort of information you need to fathom your suspicions.

More significantly, do I think you’re going to have problems with your new G-21SF ambi magazine release? No! Provided that you do not unduly stress the mechanism, I would not expect you to have problems.

Perhaps you should, also, thank me for being so candid in sharing these opinions with you. I’ve been a member of this board long enough, now, to know exactly what’s going to happen next. (But, it's all good clean fun!) ;)

[SgtRich]

O.K., I get that Glock's ambi safety on the G21 SF is, basically, new and untried. That much, I can undestand clearly. However, if this new "feature" is causing more than a few problems, Glock needs to address this issue as soon as possible.

My problem is that, if Glock's 13-round magazine cannot be relied upon to feed and load the pistol reliably, they should leave the magazine exactly as it is and state that it has a 12-round capacity. It should not be claimed to have a 13-round capacity, if keeping it loaded to capacity is going to cause too much pressure on the slide for consistent and reliable function.

As a little background, I have been shooting handguns for well over 40 years and have carried handguns, daily, for almost 35 of those years, being a retired LEO.

I DO thank you for your input in this matter and sincerely appreciate yours and anybody else's feedback regarding this issue. I'm just trying to feel I did the right thing in the purchase of my G21 SF, which is my first Glock pistol. As of right now, I don't feel that I am going to be comfortable using it as my daily carry gun.

[Arc Angel]

Not a problem. More of a guarantee. It's also a common military practice (especially among WWII and later Marines) to download semiautomatic pistol magazines by one or two rounds for reliability. ;)

Me? I have long considered a pistol's stated, 'magazine capacity' to be the MAXIMUM CAPACITY at which the pistol's action may be reliably cycled and fed.

The way that I learned how to absolutely trust my G-21's was to run each of them through several thousand rounds without any untoward incident. My Glocks WILL now do this; and, while not yesterday, certainly today I trust my personal safety to a 3rd generation Austrian frame G-21.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/Me_2U/GlockG-213-1.jpg

[sthncmft]

Loading the 21sf mags to 12 plus 1 is the safest thing to do, but I can say that my 21 2nd gen never gave me a minutes trouble, but I used that one with more often (I still do, can't get enough of that gun)...since I had this problem with my 21sf mags, I have since taken one round out of all my poly mags....

[DannyR]

I never experienced a problem loading my old G21 to 13+1 or my old G30 to 10+1. I keep my G37 loaded to 11+1 and my G38 loaded to 9+1 (using factory #7151 bases).:whistling:

[Arc Angel]

:) Danny, I didn't say that it couldn't be done, or that you couldn't get away with doing this.

Obviously I've done it, too. What I said is that it's a good idea NOT to. I might have said this better if I'd specifically mentioned that a combat/carry weapon should never be loaded like that. But, hey, I'm just another guy on the internet; and, this is just my opinion.

No matter to me. Everyone's welcome to do whatever they think best. ;)

[sthncmft]

Here is a question? Has there been any type of modification to magazine springs by glock. Could that have something to do with the tension? I am going to switch my 2nd gen mag springs with the sf springs and see what happens?

[Arc Angel]

:upeyes: I think that's going to be a waste of time!

Glock contracts all of their springs; and, this is the reason why there's such incredible variation among the springs in so many different pistols and magazines. In the same model and caliber I've got factory springs with: different colors, different lengths, different metals, and different tensile strengths. The amazing thing to me is that so many of these springs actually work as they're intended.

Yes, I've had spring problems too; and, I've simplified my life and improved the performance of many different pistols by switching to all new Wolff aftermarket gun springs on all of my semiautomatic pistols.

In my experience, the only Wolff springs that do not work significantly better than factory in my G-21's are their 10 round magazine springs, (too strong) and the SLB spring. (too tight) Every other Wolff spring is an improvement over whatever originally came with my Glocks. ;)

[Skintop911]

In a G-21, 12 + 1 is the correct way to load. 13 + 1 is begging for a, 'top round jam'.

This is the same nonsense you asserted in this thread:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=775791

Not a problem. More of a guarantee. It's also a common military practice (especially among WWII and later Marines) to download semiautomatic pistol magazines by one or two rounds for reliability. ;)

Do you have a current, or relatively recent, reference for that common military practice? I'm not aware any, nor have I observed that practice while working and training with various DOD personnel so equipped.

I'm not aware of any manfacturer cautions or advisories to that effect, either.

Me? I have long considered a pistol's stated, 'magazine capacity' to be the MAXIMUM CAPACITY at which the pistol's action may be reliably cycled and fed.

True words.

However, I wonder how your conclusions have escaped the umpteen thousand professional trainers and end-users of semi-automatic pistols who load and carry magazines at full capacity, under a loaded chamber. Including users of the Glock 21.

Obviously I've done it, too. What I said is that it's a good idea NOT to. I might have said this better if I'd specifically mentioned that a combat/carry weapon should never be loaded like that. But, hey, I'm just another guy on the internet; and, this is just my opinion.

Your entitled to your opinion. It's unfortunate that many recipients of it will not have the various filters handy to separate the wheat from the chaff.

In the previous thread, you also tendered this opinion:

As far as I'm concerned this silly practice is for: kids, wannabees, and people who don't really need to carry a pistol.

Which included the men and women of our armed forces and public safety communities.

You started out this thread posting erroneous information, and it's only gotten worse.

[Arc Angel]

Skintop911, Interesting little rant! :freak:

(Might have helped if you sang the Star Spangled Banner at the end, though.)

Your ignorance is your own problem; as far as I'm concerned you can do your own internet searches, too. The information I posted is valid and historically correct. I really don't care who's teaching what, today.

(Look at the modern DEA and ask yourself just how good, 'professional' firearms training really is!) :clown:

I was already shooting from a modified Weaver stance years before the FBI even knew it existed; and, I strongly suspect that my uncles were teaching me how to handle firearms while your mother was still powdering your behind.

You can only wish that you’ve handled weapons for as long or as well as I have. I’m not just posting words on the internet. I’m talking about things that have actually happened to me. In this case, the events I’ve mentioned are all from firsthand experience, and derived from the use of multiple handguns.

Between the two of us, you are the one who’s ranting and posting misleading information on the internet – Something which I would never deliberately do.

Quite frankly, I resent your insinuation that I’m doing a disservice to military and law enforcement personnel. My uncles, the men who originally taught me how to shoot and fight, were all combat veterans and honorably discharged United States Marines. (I would have been, too; but I pursued a career in the ministry, instead.) My maternal grandfather remains one of the most prominent law enforcement officials in the history of my home state; and my father is one of the state’s most honored public educators.

Get off your high horse. Before you launch another tirade, like that, do your homework first. In addition to really bad manners you’ve, obviously, got a lot of learning to do.

[Skintop911]

Skintop911, Interesting little rant! :freak: (Might have helped if you sang the Star Spangled Banner at the end, though.)

Whimsy isn't a response to the questions I posed, but it's easier than more substantive answers. Did you have any?

Your ignorance is your own problem;

I seem to share that problem with some good company then. Manufacturers, trainers, professional end-users...

as far as I'm concerned you can do your own internet searches, too. The information I posted is valid and historically correct. I really don't care who's teaching what, today.

Then the information you post is dated, and not reflective of the current collective body of knowledge. Yet you tender it, expressing and/or implying that it remains valid, all without foundation or without sufficient foundation for the level of extrapolation your offering.

(Look at the modern DEA and ask yourself just how good, 'professional' firearms training really is!) :clown:

Do you have training and operational experience with the Drug Enforcement Administration, sufficient for credible comment on their FTU and agent-instructors in the field?

Or are you passing judgement on an entire organization based upon a video you saw on the internet?

I was already shooting from a modified Weaver stance years before the FBI even knew it existed; and, I strongly suspect that my uncles were teaching me how to handle firearms while your mother was still powdering your behind. You can only wish that you’ve handled weapons for as long or as well as I have.

This may or may not mean anything, depending on what you've done with your time and what you've done in the practice of the discipline.

I’m not just posting words on the internet. I’m talking about things that have actually happened to me. In this case, the events I’ve mentioned are all from firsthand experience, and derived from the use of multiple handguns.

I believe that's true. The problem is that you've drawn larger conclusions based upon small sample sizes. Further, there should be more analysis of other variables in those experiences in order to derive useful data from them.

Between the two of us, you are the one who’s ranting and posting misleading information on the internet – Something which I would never deliberately do.

If you'll identify what information I've posted that's misleading, I'll clarify or provide further detail as required.

I don't know if you're intentionally misleading people. I suspect you simply don't know what you don't know.

Quite frankly, I resent your insinuation that I’m doing a disservice to military and law enforcement personnel. My uncles, the men who originally taught me how to shoot and fight, were all combat veterans and honorably discharged United States Marines. (I would have been, too; but I pursued a career in the ministry, instead.) My maternal grandfather remains one of the most prominent law enforcement officials in the history of my home state; and my father is one of the state’s most honored public educators.

I acknowledge and heartily thank your family members for their honorable service.

I acknowledge and thank you for your service to mankind through ministry. God bless you in your ministry and in your service to Him.

But I insinuate nothing: Your input on this topic is doing a disservice to all, including military and public safety, by propogating erroneous information. Especially so for those who will not have a credible authority to access or base of experience or education with which to consider and filter it.

Again, your comment was:

As far as I'm concerned this silly practice is for: kids, wannabees, and people who don't really need to carry a pistol.

In addition to really bad manners you’ve, obviously, got a lot of learning to do.

I've maintained manners and decorum in my inquiries.

I hope that there will always be things for me to learn.

I eagerly await the education and resources you have to offer on this topic, so that all may learn.

[NiteQwill]

Hey, no offense guys, but BOTH OF YOU are turning the thread in the wrong direction. If you would like to keep it off-topic, I suggest you both resort to PM or email. I originally posted with the intent of helping gain knowledge for myself and others who may be curious, so can we please keep it straight-and-steady? Thanks :)

[Arc Angel]

Whimsy isn't a response to the questions I posed, but it's easier than more substantive answers. Did you have any?

Yes, and I regularly offer them on this forum everyday of the week. Apparently you haven’t noticed; but, my responses are every bit as substantive as your own.

Because you know of, 'no one who ... ' does not mean that the information I've posted is invalid or that such sources do not exist. It simply means exactly what you've stated; 'I do not know!'

I seem to share that problem with some good company then. Manufacturers, trainers, professional end-users ...

Sources? Do YOU, now, care to be more specific? You assume far too much. If you're propensity to assume were correct, the nation we live in would still be debt free. Problems usually begin when popular opinions ignore less obvious, more pertinent, and worthwhile facts. In short, learning may only begin when you are willing to consider, rather than attack, the other fellow's point-of-view.

Then the information you post is dated, and not reflective of the current, collective body of knowledge. Yet you tender it, expressing and/or implying that it remains valid, all without foundation or without sufficient foundation for the level of extrapolation your offering.

Yes, it is! I'm, also, one of those guys who thought Lyndon Johnson was entirely mislead when he ordered the destruction of 10's of 1,000's of perfectly good 1911 pistols. (An executive order the Marine Corp, somehow, managed to ignore.)

It's my opinion - An opinion slowly formed over years of observation as well as from pragmatic and frequent personal experience. The last time a top round jammed on me was less than 2 years ago. It happened in a polymer frame pistol - A modern design that I suspect you're, both, fond of and familiar with?

Polymer frames are, also, - in my experience - more likely to exacerbate top round jams; but, please, don't let my, 'dated precautions' any further disturb your strongly held world view!

Do you have training and operational experience with the Drug Enforcement Administration, sufficient for credible comment on their FTU and agent-instructors in the field?

No I do not. I did, however, recently receive a personal thank you from a senior FBI agent whose son is, presently, a Marine Corp sniper in Iraq. His father thanked me for developing in his son that skill set which he is presently using to safeguard American lives throughout his operating area. His dad's comment to me was; ‘Because of the time you spent with him, Charles had a terrific head start on sniper training.’ ‘His instructors called him, ‘a natural shot!'

Or are you passing judgement (SIC) on an entire organization based upon a video you saw on the internet?

Yes, I am. With firearms, your first mistake is often your last mistake. I don't need to have a mountain of evidence fall on my head before I realize that something has to stink at the training grounds in Western Virginia.

That event should NEVER have happened; and, it was aided and abetted by several different agents, all, at the same time. As a firearms instructor, myself, I would not and do not excuse that ND. There is no acceptable rationale for what happened that afternoon in Orlando.

This may or may not mean anything, depending on what you've done with your time and what you've done in the practice of the discipline.

What I’ve done? Well, let’s see: I’ve never been beaten by any other rifleman in my entire life, not anytime, not anyplace. People who saw me shoot when I was younger used to call me, ‘surrealistic’ with a rifle. Until I began having heart problems a few years ago I was always an upper 10 percentile shooter with either a pistol or a shotgun, too.

Until very recently I’ve never had to take a backseat to anyone when it came to handling firearms – No one throughout the majority of my life.

I believe that's true. The problem is that you've drawn larger conclusions based upon small sample sizes. Further, there should be more analysis of other variables in those experiences in order to derive useful data from them.

No! This is, both, my personal experience as well as my personal opinion. Any conclusions I’ve drawn are based on a lifetime of experience with this, my chosen avocation of more than 50 years’ standing. You may not like what I have to offer; but, I’ll tell you right now, there are many people who know me well, and have known me well, for many years who would not agree with you.

If you'll identify what information I've posted that's misleading, I'll clarify or provide further detail as required.

Sure, you’re simply as wrong as you are adamant and inflexible.

I don't know if you're intentionally misleading people. I suspect you're simply ignorant, not knowing what you don't know.

My friend, how dare you! I went through college with straight A’s. My language skills, and mathematical abilities are a matter of corporate record. I hold (or held) the state licenses, and academic credentials necessary to identify me as one of the very best at my several chosen professions. ‘Slow’, or ignorant as you say, is something I have never demonstrably been. Most people have had to run in order to keep up with me.

I aknowledge (SIC) and heartily thank your family members for their honorable service.

I aknowledge (SIC) and thank you for your service to mankind through ministry. God bless you in your ministry and in your service to Him.

Thanks, but, we didn’t do it for you! ;)

But I insinuate nothing: Your input on this topic is doing a disservice to all, including military and public safety, by propogating (SIC) erroneous information. Especially so for those who will not have a credible authority or base of experience or education with which to consider and filter it.

You are, obviously, a person who needs the support and approval of others in order to validate his own thought processes. I outgrew this sort of intellectual dependency before I was 30 years old. Unlike you, I’m able to form AND draw my own practical conclusions.

Again, your comment was: ...

That’s right; and I stand by the comment! Get used to it: Whether you like it or not, I’m right; and, you’re wrong. There’s really nothing more to say.

I've maintained manners and decorum in my inquiries.

No you have not! Your second reply is more tolerant and polite than your first; but, initially, your comments to me were way out of line.

I hope that there will always be things for me to learn.

Fear not! (I think The Good Lord has already heard you.) :)

I eagerly await the education and resources you have to offer on this topic, so that all may learn.

OK, but, I don’t allow myself to wallow in these internet squabbles. If it weren’t for opinionated and strong willed people like yourself, D.R. Middlebrook would probably still be posting on Glock Talk FOR FREE! Even though D.R. shoots much better than I do, he was still driven away from this site by the many who vehemently disagreed with his, ‘FistFire’ handgun methodology.

(That situation has been rapidly changing over the past two years, though – Hasn’t it! The other day I heard that various government personnel are, now, attending the Tactical Shooting Academy. Cool, huh! I guess when it's your time, it's your time!) :supergrin:

I suggest that you lighten up, check your history, and check your facts before automatically resorting to your own strongly held personal opinions. I’d, also, suggest that you allow others to express themselves, too - without the ad hominem attacks. In this way, you might truly discover those opportunities to learn which you say you are earnestly looking for.

That’s it! I’m through with this, now. If you want to keep it up, you’ll just have to look for me (and my considered opinions) in other threads. I continue to stand by everything I've said.






NiteQwill, I've been an active and cooperative participant in this thread from the very beginning.

Whether you benefit from my experience and opinions, or not, is entirely up to you; but, you're not a moderator; so don't try to shut me up the moment you don't find my comments to be useful for your immediate purposes.

Because of my previous participation you owe me more than that! I didn't start this. Hopefully, I've finished it now, though; and, as far as I'm concerned, you're more than welcome to have your thread back.

[NiteQwill]

NiteQwill, I've been an active and cooperative participant in this thread from the very beginning.

Whether you benefit from my experience and opinions, or not, is entirely up to you; but, you're not a moderator; so don't try to shut me up the moment you don't find my comments to be useful for your immediate purposes.

Because of my previous participation you owe me more than that! I didn't start this. Hopefully, I've finished it now, though; and, as far as I'm concerned, you're more than welcome to have your thread back.
Yes, you have and I thank you greatly for your input into the original question. With that, no I am not a moderator, but in every sense have a certain expectation from this thread I posted. Again, I respect your contribution but I never intended to shut you up, I merely stated the fact that it would best serve all readers that the discussion be moved privately. If anyone wishes to proceed OT, I have no objections as long as you state in the beginning of your post as to warn other readers. All in all, a very informative read. Thank you :)

[meadmakerman]

:popcorn:

[Skintop911]

Yes, and I regularly offer them on this forum everyday of the week. Apparently you haven’t noticed; but, my responses are every bit as substantive as your own.

Responses to other threads aren't of interest here. Did you have some on point, for this thread?

Because you know of, 'no one who ... ' does not mean that the information I've posted is invalid or that such sources do not exist. It simply means exactly what you've stated; 'I do not know!'

So you have none to offer to back up your claim. I see.

In stacks of training, maintenance, and P&P manuals, DOD, FLETC, manufacturer, and other, I find none. If they exist, give me a pointer?

Interestingly, there's a similar thread on this topic. Running here:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=811973

A member in that thread offers this gem:

The Chicago P.D.'s orders state that all semi-automatic pistols will be carried with one round chambered AND A FULLY LOADED MAGAZINE (emphasis added - mine). Yes, they REQUIRE a magazine to be loaded to capacity. BTW - the Chicago P.D. just recently approved Glocks, Springfield XDs and S&W M&Ps, in 9mm, .40 & .45 ACP cal., for duty weapons quite recently.

Apparently, Chicago PD is missing something, too. You should get to Chicago at once, their members of service need you!

Sources? Do YOU, now, care to be more specific?

Above. Many available online. I'll wait.

Problems usually begin when popular opinions ignore less obvious, more pertinent, and worthwhile facts. In short, learning may only begin when you are willing to consider, rather than attack, the other fellow's point-of-view.

I've indeed considered your view point. It's wrong, and contrary to the collective body of knowledge.

Yes, it is! I'm, also, one of those guys who thought Lyndon Johnson was entirely mislead when he ordered the destruction of 10's of 1,000's of perfectly good 1911 pistols. (An executive order the Marine Corp, somehow, managed to ignore.)

And?

It's my opinion - An opinion slowly formed over years of observation as well as from pragmatic and frequent personal experience. The last time a top round jammed on me was less than 2 years ago. It happened in a polymer frame pistol - A modern design that I suspect you're, both, fond of and familiar with?

I believe that you experienced what you described. The problems remains in the lack of further detail, and the extrapolations your offering.

Polymer frames are, also, - in my experience - more likely to exacerbate top round jams; but, please, don't let my, 'dated precautions' any further disturb your strongly held world view!

See above.

No I do not. I did, however, recently receive a personal thank you from a senior FBI agent whose son is, presently, a Marine Corp sniper in Iraq. His father thanked me for developing in his son that skill set which he is presently using to safeguard American lives throughout his operating area. His dad's comment to me was; ‘Because of the time you spent with him, Charles had a terrific head start on sniper training.’ ‘His instructors called him, ‘a natural shot!'

Thank you for supporting our troops.

Advertising such accolades doesn't bolster your argument.

Yes, I am. With firearms, your first mistake is often your last mistake. I don't need to have a mountain of evidence fall on my head before I realize that something has to stink at the training grounds in Western Virginia.

Until you have said experience, you should reserve opinion on the fine men and women, and their training staff and cadre, who do.

That event should NEVER have happened; and, it was aided and abetted by several different agents, all, at the same time. As a firearms instructor, myself, I would not and do not excuse that ND. There is no acceptable rationale for what happened that afternoon in Orlando.

I agree.

What I’ve done? Well, let’s see: I’ve never been beaten by any other rifleman in my entire life, not anytime, not any place. People who saw me shoot when I was younger used to call me, ‘surrealistic’ with a rifle. Until I began having heart problems a few years ago I was always an upper 10 percentile shooter with either a pistol or a shotgun, too. Until very recently I’ve never had to take a backseat to anyone when it came to handling firearms – No one throughout the majority of my life.

See above, don't break that arm.

No! This is, both, my personal experience as well as my personal opinion. Any conclusions I’ve drawn are based on a lifetime of experience with this, my chosen avocation of more than 50 years’ standing. You may not like what I have to offer; but, I’ll tell you right now, there are many people who know me well, and have known me well, for many years who would not agree with you.

That's fine, I'm in good company.

My friend, I went through college with straight A’s. My language skills, and mathematical abilities are a matter of corporate record. I hold (or held) the state licenses, and academic credentials necessary to identify me as one of the very best at my several chosen professions.

Hey, me too. This means what to the topic at hand?

‘Slow’, or ignorant as you say, is something I have never demonstrably been. Most people have had to run in order to keep up with me.

Lol. There's that arm again. You can be a Rhodes's Scholar and member of MENSA, and remain ignorant of some things.

You are, obviously, a person who needs the support and approval of others in order to validate his own thought processes. I outgrew this sort of intellectual dependency before I was 30 years old. Unlike you, I’m able to form AND draw my own practical conclusions.

No, my concern is for others.

That’s right; and I stand by the comment! Get used to it: Whether you like it or not, I’m right; and, you’re wrong. There’s really nothing more to say.

That you proudly stand by that comment speaks volumes about you.

For those arriving late it was:

As far as I'm concerned this silly practice is for: kids, wannabees, and people who don't really need to carry a pistol.

Just...wow.

That’s it! I’m through with this, now. If you want to keep it up, you’ll just have to look for me (and my considered opinions) in other threads. I continue to stand by everything I've said.

That's what you did last time, and your flight wasn't unexpected. It is informative, however.

Here's an offer: I would like to duplicate the problems you describe. Given a number of two-alpha and three alpha G21s over a good length of production, as well as an assortment of 45ACP ammunition, how should I proceed?

[Blitzer]

This is the same nonsense you asserted in this thread:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=775791



Do you have a current, or relatively recent, reference for that common military practice? I'm not aware any, nor have I observed that practice while working and training with various DOD personnel so equipped.

I'm not aware of any manfacturer cautions or advisories to that effect, either.



True words.

However, I wonder how your conclusions have escaped the umpteen thousand professional trainers and end-users of semi-automatic pistols who load and carry magazines at full capacity, under a loaded chamber. Including users of the Glock 21.



Your entitled to your opinion. It's unfortunate that many recipients of it will not have the various filters handy to separate the wheat from the chaff.

In the previous thread, you also tendered this opinion:



Which included the men and women of our armed forces and public safety communities.

You started out this thread posting erroneous information, and it's only gotten worse.

All I can say is DITTO++++++++++++++++!

Angle's assertions are quite amusing to say the least, but supplied with so much of an air of authority as to make a novice believe this mass of bovine excrement.

:whistling: :rofl: :shocked: :dunno:

[Arc Angel]

:shocked: You know Blitzer, you and I have known each other for a few years now. When you were interested in seeking employment at Tobyhanna Arsenal I was the person who took the time to research the job openings for you and point you in the right direction.

Nevertheless, every now and then you insist on posting dumb comments or silly pictures that ridicule other people's posts. I would have thought you'd be smart enough to stay out of this fight; but, apparently, you're just being Blitzer!

The last time I visited at Camp Lejuene, the guards at the gates were carrying their 1911's in C-3 and their magazines were loaded down to 5 rounds by order of the Commandant.

When my uncles came home from fighting in the South Pacific and Korea, they spoke of being required to download their 45 pistols by one or two rounds in order to insure reliability under field conditions. Over the years I've, also, read articles in popular gun magzines about the Marines and their propensity for downloaded 1911 pistol magazines. I, also, seem to remember - but I'm not exactly certain - that the Army used to do this too.

I'm surprised at you, Blitzer. I thought you, of all people, would have known better than to jump into this; but, with all those pain killers you take I guess your thought processes are occasionally muddled.

Keep pushing the envelope. It's only a matter of time before someone else finally posts the truth; and, you'll both discover how wrong you've been.

[BrianNH]

:)
Where a Glock is concerned: 13 + 1 exerts a lot of force against the bottom of a G-21's slide; in my experience - which spreads out over a wide variety of different 45 acp ammunition - sometimes that upward mechanical pressure is too great to allow the slide to move freely in its normal fashion. When this happens, the pistol will jam before the top (13th) round is able to feed.


I agree with you. While many load their Glock mags to the max + 1 without any trouble, I say why?

Not only for the reasons you mention, but I would also rather have one less round in my pistol than to compress the hek out of my mag spring for the sake of gaining one more round. Not worth it in my opinion.

[j00016]

I have been reading about the issues that everyone has been experiencing with the new 21 sf ambi mag release. I too have had issues with my mag release catching open after taking out the mag.

Has anyone heard of Glock being notified of this problem? This is very disturbing since I just switched back to a Glock for duty carry.

I think Glock should replace all of the 21 sf's with an ambi mag release to those that want for a standard release.

[MarcDW]

Well, that would mean a new frame.
I am pretty sure that Glock is not going for that!
Beside, I don't think it's realy a problem.

[Fallguy173]

This is the first that I have heard of the jamming with the 13+1. No problems here. I will continue to load 13+1, and keep track of any problems if they occur.

[hopeitsfast]

O.k. now i'm confused. Just bought a 21SF yesterday with ambi. release. Should i be worried. I guess i'll just take a round out. If i can't get it done with 13 then 14 isn't gonna matter.

[j00016]

I think Glock knows that there is a problem with the ambidextorus magazine release and that is why they pulled it off the market. The lease they could do is replace the frame with a standard mag release. Especially since my life relies on this weapon.

[hopeitsfast]

I think Glock knows that there is a problem with the ambidextorus magazine release and that is why they pulled it off the market. The lease they could do is replace the frame with a standard mag release. Especially since my life relies on this weapon.
When was this done? I just bought my 21sf on monday with the ambi release. Should i be screaming at the dealer and trying to get my money back?

[j00016]

You can still buy them, but I've heard that Glock isn't making them any more since they didn't get the governement contract.

From personal experience, if you can get the one with the standard mag release, DO IT! I wish I could. Now I need to try to sell mine off so I can get the one I should have got.

[SgtRich]

I have a G21SF w/ambi mag release that I use as an everyday carry pistol. Although I haven't had any problems AT ALL with this pistol, I only have a couple of hundred rounds through it, as I bought it in January. I've been shooting for a lot of years and feel that my Glock (it's my first Glock) is one of the finest pistols I've ever shot but reading this stuff makes me uncomfortable when I think about staking my life on this pistol. Is there any problem with the ambi mag release other than when dropping full mags out of the pistol? I know that the ambi mag release is different from the old style single side mag release but are any parts plastic that used to be metal or something else that would explain the problems that have been mentioned?

[JNKIRK1974]

Ok, so after all of this.....have we come up with a source to purchase Glock 21 SF magazines. I have the picatinny rail on my SF. Anyone with a direct link would be greatly appreciated.

[Mike from Texas]

Now that a couple of posters have hopefully gotten off their personal tirades, :upeyes: maybe we can get back on topic. IMO just to be safe just buy the SF mags. They are readily available at both CDNN & Botach tactical. I just ordered 6 each of both G20SF & G21SF mags from Botach on the 14th and received them on the 17th.

[kikiquin]

lets make this simple. if your 21sf is ambi. you can only use mags with cutout in front. if your 21sf is reg mag release. you can use either mag.

[Mike from Texas]

My 21 SF magazine has the front cutout. I wish I had better pictures. Maybe this can clarify.

Also, are all other 21 & 21SF parts... recoil spring, bottom "plug" insert, interchangeable?

This is an actual picture of the gun:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6751&d=1198916703

The grip plug is different and Glockparts.com has the new ones. I just bought one this week.

[f.2]

Non-ambi 21SFs are NOT KALI glocks...

http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_bucktooth.gif

OK, I take what I originally said back. California Glocks appear to be different.

____________________

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Colddead-fp.jpg

[gary newport]

Non-ambi 21SFs are NOT KALI glocks...

http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_bucktooth.gif



____________________

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Colddead-fp.jpg

Yes and no. Not all non-ambi G21 SFs are sold in California, but all G21 SFs sold in California (to non-LE buyers) are non-ambi. :cool:

[RichZman]

:shocked: You know Blitzer, you and I have known each other for a few years now. When you were interested in seeking employment at Tobyhanna Arsenal I was the person who took the time to research the job openings for you and point you in the right direction.

Nevertheless, every now and then you insist on posting dumb comments or silly pictures that ridicule other people's posts. I would have thought you'd be smart enough to stay out of this fight; but, apparently, you're just being Blitzer!

The last time I visited at Camp Lejuene, the guards at the gates were carrying their 1911's in C-3 and their magazines were loaded down to 5 rounds by order of the Commandant.

When my uncles came home from fighting in the South Pacific and Korea, they spoke of being required to download their 45 pistols by one or two rounds in order to insure reliability under field conditions. Over the years I've, also, read articles in popular gun magzines about the Marines and their propensity for downloaded 1911 pistol magazines. I, also, seem to remember - but I'm not exactly certain - that the Army used to do this too.

I'm surprised at you, Blitzer. I thought you, of all people, would have known better than to jump into this; but, with all those pain killers you take I guess your thought processes are occasionally muddled.

Keep pushing the envelope. It's only a matter of time before someone else finally posts the truth; and, you'll both discover how wrong you've been.
:offtopic:

[RichZman]

Although it's off topic ArcAngel, the army did download mags.

[DFin]

[QUOTE=j00016;10063757]I have been reading about the issues that everyone has been experiencing with the new 21 sf ambi mag release. I too have had issues with my mag release catching open after taking out the mag.

Has anyone heard of Glock being notified of this problem? This is very disturbing since I just switched back to a Glock for duty carry.

I think Glock should replace all of the 21 sf's with an ambi mag release to those that want for a standard r,,,,,

[RichZman]

[quote=j00016;10063757]I have been reading about the issues that everyone has been experiencing with the new 21 sf ambi mag release. I too have had issues with my mag release catching open after taking out the mag.

Has anyone heard of Glock being notified of this problem? This is very disturbing since I just switched back to a Glock for duty carry.

I think Glock should replace all of the 21 sf's with an ambi mag release to those that want for a standard r,,,,,


I have a new 21SF and have never fired it...actually, I've only held it three times. What exactly is everyone talking about when they say the mage release catches open after taking out the mag? Thanks for the heads up.:wavey: