View Full Version : Buying or Building new AR15
ex95bravo
01-20-2008, 17:34
Any recommendations on what brands to consider and which brands to stay away from? Also any advantages for or against building vs. buying?
Thanks
ex95bravo
www.ar15.com
www.m4carbine.net
ex95bravo
01-20-2008, 17:55
I'm a member of ar15.com, I was just wanting people's expertise on this website because I value there opinion. I'm leaning toward a S&W because they have a lifetime warranty on there weapons.
jrs93accord
01-20-2008, 19:17
I'm a member of ar15.com, I was just wanting people's expertise on this website because I value there opinion. I'm leaning toward a S&W because they have a lifetime warranty on there weapons.
LMT, STAG, RRA, DPMS, CMMG, Bushmaster, Armalite, ...... Take your pick. Again, it really depends on you, your requirements, and your budget.
Cannibul
01-20-2008, 21:55
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=932905&cat=33&
$570 for a flat top rifle.
Any recommendations on what brands to consider and which brands to stay away from?
ex95bravo
LMT, Noveske, Stag, RRA, even Bushmaster are good choices.
Avoid OLympic, DPMS and CMMG.
Also any advantages for or against building vs. buying?
ex95bravo
You can save money in most cases if you buy the upper and lower seperetly. More importantly, you can better customise your build.
ex95bravo
01-20-2008, 22:26
LMT, Noveske, Stag, RRA, even Bushmaster are good choices.
Avoid OLympic, DPMS and CMMG.
You can save money in most cases if you buy the upper and lower seperetly. More importantly, you can better customise your build.
Why not DPMS??? What's wrong with them? Just wondering.
Why not DPMS??? What's wrong with them? Just wondering.
In short, many of the parts they use are no where near milspec. Basically, in the AR world, there are the contenders and the pretenders. DPMS is considered a pretender. This is one reason why they cost less than most other makes.
In short, many of the parts they use are no where near milspec.
The same could be said about Colt's civilian line of rifles. With their oddball pivot pin, non-standard trigger & hammer pins, and sear blocks, they aren't exactly selling "milspec" stuff to us either.
Yes - I own a Colt. I don't see it being any better than any of my other ARs, and the oddball non-standard stuff is a turn-off to me.
GlockFish
01-21-2008, 01:55
I'm a member of ar15.com, I was just wanting people's expertise on this website because I value there opinion. I'm leaning toward a S&W because they have a lifetime warranty on there weapons.
I've heard nothing but good things from the S&W M&P's - especially the Model M&P15T Rifle. It seems to have everything one would want already included already. Sure you can buy cheaper, but S&W is a hell of a company with a Lifetime warranty.
MOTHERGREEN
01-21-2008, 01:59
whats wrong with cmmg? I hear any questions like this are censored on ar15.com so.. I'm asking here.
AK_Stick
01-21-2008, 02:28
whats wrong with cmmg? I hear any questions like this are censored on ar15.com so.. I'm asking here.
I've heard claims that they have a poor QC standard, and a high return rate for bad parts.
but I've never seen anything to back that up, the few parts I've seen are top quality, and I'd use them.
MOTHERGREEN
01-21-2008, 03:47
good to know
crazymoose
01-21-2008, 08:46
LMT, Noveske, Stag, RRA, even Bushmaster are good choices.
Avoid OLympic, DPMS and CMMG.
Have to disagree with your assessment of CMMG. Their barrels have been comparable to the LMT barrels I've used in rifles that I've put together, and they offer a huge variety of configurations. The staking of their carrier keys is not great, but they're contracted CMT bolt groups, and this is an easy fix for the user to perform.
Most of the whining about CMMG comes from a couple of guys who got bad parts, wouldn't let CMMG's great customer service help, and then haven't shut up about it since. And I know that in one case, the unsatisfied party sent a really imprecise work order in for a custom barrel, and was then upset that the barrel was not exactly as he'd wanted it.
whats wrong with cmmg?
Where would you like me to start?.....
I hear any questions like this are censored on ar15.com so.. I'm asking here.
The questions aren't censored. It's the negative responses and bad feedback that is.
crazymoose
01-21-2008, 12:57
Where would you like me to start?.....
Start wherever you'd like. I'm curious what your grievances with the company are.
Have to disagree with your assessment of CMMG. they offer a huge variety of configurations.
This is true, however most of them are less than ideal...
The staking of their carrier keys is not great, but they're contracted CMT bolt groups, and this is an easy fix for the user to perform.
You ain't kiddin. Their Gas Key staking sucks! If they can't properly stake a gas key, then what makes you think their materials and QC are so great?
Besides, why should the end user have to worry about re staking the carrier key?
Most of the whining about CMMG comes from a couple of guys who got bad parts, .
There are many more CMMG complaints that were deleted and some of the guys got banned....
wouldn't let CMMG's great customer service help,
Not everyone has received great customer service.
And I know that in one case, the unsatisfied party sent a really imprecise work order in for a custom barrel, and was then upset that the barrel was not exactly as he'd wanted it.
If it's the same guy I'm thinking about, forget about it not being precise, CMMG ruined the poor guys barrel.
I'm curious what your grievances with the company are.
I'll list some.
1) Lying to the public, in that they claim to manufacture parts; when in fact CMMG makes nothing of their own. They do however use lots of DPMS Parts.
2) Their barrels are cut from 4140 blanks outsourced to a local machine shop.
3)They have an approximate 12% return rate. This was told to me by a guy I know and his wife, who worked for them for 5 years. Out of 40 uppers/rifles shipped per week, 5 are returned. The figure was much lower a few years back, when CMMG employed more competent and experienced employees.
4) They blacklist customers who give them bad reviews online.
5) They use ghost rider member accounts in arfcom and other forums to give false good feedback and praise about their company.
I can go on.
ex95bravo
01-21-2008, 13:51
How about a new Armalite ar15 flat top without sights for 850 plus tax out the door? Is that a decent buy for the price or is it missing something that I would regret later on? Is Armalite something I would want?
How about a new Armalite ar15 flat top without sights for 850 plus tax out the door? Is that a decent buy for the price or is it missing something that I would regret later on? Is Armalite something I would want?
I'm not sure about Armalite. However a sight will run you around 100 bucks.
The same could be said about Colt's civilian line of rifles. With their oddball pivot pin, non-standard trigger & hammer pins, and sear blocks, they aren't exactly selling "milspec" stuff to us either.
Yes - I own a Colt. I don't see it being any better than any of my other ARs, and the oddball non-standard stuff is a turn-off to me.
You're correct. What I really was getting at was the cheap barrel steel, soft taper pins etc...
callahan318
01-21-2008, 15:36
I put together a complete LMT upper (upper, bolt, enhanced carrier, and battle sight, all from LMT) onto a lower from DPMS. It worked out really well...I just took it out to test fire it, and it was really something. NO problems, ran well.
The neat part was that at my local Sportsmans, Bushmaster M4 clones are selling for 969.99, and the total cost for my build (with shipping) was 955. bought 10 mags from bravocompany for 109.99, so total cost was 1065.
Well worth it. I would consider building like I did. It is MUCH better in the long run, and you learn something.
MOTHERGREEN
01-21-2008, 16:15
damn. and I was set on cmmg since it didn't cost so much and I hadn't heard much bad about em. first centerfire ar btw.
crazymoose
01-21-2008, 16:35
I'm not trying to come off as an apologist for CMMG but I think some of your criticisms may be wrong. But I've heard other people say similar things and I'd like to get to the bottom of this because I like CMMG, but may have to take another look at them.
I'll list some.
1) Lying to the public, in that they claim to manufacture parts; when in fact CMMG makes nothing of their own. They do however use lots of DPMS Parts..
CMMG used to build thier guns exclusively from DPMS parts, as I recall, but that changed a few years ago. Lots of companies claim to "make" AR-15s. Most just assemble parts from subcontractors. As far as I know, CMMG uses CMT bolt groups and receivers, CMT or DPMS lower parts kits, and mahcines their own (or has someone machine to their specs) proprietary barrels.
2) Their barrels are cut from 4140 blanks outsourced to a local machine shop.
Are you sure you're not mixing up the way they used to do things with the way they currently do? When they used DPMS parts, it obviously makes sense that they would have had 4140 steel. They claim that their barrels are now 4150 steel. I guess it's possible that they'd do something so risky as to just lie unabashedly about what materials they use.
4) They blacklist customers who give them bad reviews online.
This was the guy who got the bad barrel and wouldn't let them make it right. Considering that he rejected their help and kept on complaining, I wouldn't have done any more business with him, either.
5) They use ghost rider member accounts in arfcom and other forums to give false good feedback and praise about their company.
How do you know this?
How sure are you of your source? How well do you know him? I'm a little suspcious of someone who claims to have left the job over an attack of conscience. Does it really seem plausable that someone would leave gainful employment because he was so disgusted by the company? And if he was, why didn't he report his former bosses to someone like the Better Business Bureau? This sounds suspiciously like the story someone who got fired might cook up as a pretext for spreading bad rumors about his former employer.
Richard_A
01-21-2008, 16:41
what about ???
http://dynamicarmament.com/images/sigrifle/sig556_dual_lg2.jpg
MOTHERGREEN
01-21-2008, 16:49
I was pretty set on 14.5 bbl phantom 5c2 and car handguards... I don't see anyone else making that. I hope the things about cmmg are just a few bad apples cuz I'd like to go with them. a lmt upper without bcg costs the same as a cmmg without bcg but to buy the bcg seperate it costs more than the complete cmmg would... bah somebody help me :faint:
damn. and I was set on cmmg since it didn't cost so much and I hadn't heard much bad about em. first centerfire ar btw.
In a nutshell, with CMMG, there is nothing special about their AR's. What you're getting are home builds, with materials from various sources, done on a larger scale. They use mostly lower, cost and quality parts and put a better than average finish on it. Their staff consists of a mix of some experienced guys along with a bunch of goobers. (in recent times, more goobers)
damn. I hadn't heard much bad about em.
You won't on Arfcom. However on other sites you will. There was a thread on M4 Carbine.net not too long ago with a bunch of guys complaining about CMMG using soft taper pins in the FSB. They also complained about CMMG Uppers with messed up feed ramp alignment.
MOTHERGREEN
01-21-2008, 17:06
so where could I go to get what I described above? I also liked their socom barrel profile as opposed to gov't profile.
so where could I go to get what I described above? I also liked their socom barrel profile as opposed to gov't profile.
Government profile, IMO, is one of the best all around.
Anyway, check out Denny's Guns and PK Firearms for 14.5 inch builds w perm Phantoms and Vortexes.
Denny built 2 LMT 14.5 inch uppers for me with perm Vortexes. His perm attach job is so good, you can't even tell it was ever pinned and welded.
LMT is also as good as it gets. They are one of the few manufacturers that drills their gas ports correctly. An LMT 14.5 Upper, from Denny, w/Phantom, should run you around 5 bills.
In short, many of the parts they use are no where near milspec. Basically, in the AR world, there are the contenders and the pretenders. DPMS is considered a pretender. This is one reason why they cost less than most other makes.
I have a DPMS match upper than is excellent, but I have some of their standard tirgger/hammer groups I've used in 2 guns and they suck - no where near on par with the worst military issue.
I have a DPMS match upper than is excellent, but I have some of their standard tirgger/hammer groups I've used in 2 guns and they suck - no where near on par with the worst military issue.
Tell me about it. And just think, "the great CMMG" uses DPMS FCG's in all their lowers.
jrs93accord
01-21-2008, 17:49
LMT, Noveske, Stag, RRA, even Bushmaster are good choices.
Avoid OLympic, DPMS and CMMG.
You can save money in most cases if you buy the upper and lower seperetly. More importantly, you can better customise your build.
DPMS? There is nothing wrong with them either. Mine is one of the nicest ARs I own. It runs just as well as my STAG/RRA M4gery, and my LMT/LCW build.
DPMS? There is nothing wrong with them either. Mine is one of the nicest ARs I own. It runs just as well as my STAG/RRA M4gery, and my LMT/LCW build.
I'm not saying that there aren't DPMS guns that run good. However, the steel used in most DPMS Barrels and other components isn't as strong as many other makes.
crazymoose
01-22-2008, 13:14
Government profile, IMO, is one of the best all around.
I think government profile is best all around if you're the average soldier. You're carrying tons of other crap, you don't need pinpoint accuracy, and you probably won't need to use your rifle as a makeshift LMG.
The heavier profiles have always made sense to me, ironically, for both the hardcore HSLD guys like the SEALs, and also for weekend warriors. For those of us who do our only shooting at classes and recreationally, I like the heavier profile because you'll get somewhat better accuracy (sort of a moot point in a chromed barrel, though, I'll admit), and you'll keep a respectable level of accuracy for longer strings of fire. You won't spend as much time waiting for your rifle to cool as your groups open. For your SEAL type, these guys often live and die by their ability to project a volume of firepower vastly exceeding their unit size, and they need barrels that won't liquify when doing mag dumps.
Any recommendations on what brands to consider and which brands to stay away from? Also any advantages for or against building vs. buying?
Thanks
ex95bravo
Building is more fun and MAY save some money. Buying means your gun will have more resale value.
I have used Doublestar parts to build a rifle and a pistol and they are VERY high quality, much better than DPMS. Search for J&T Distyributing and they will sell you rifles, parts, receivers, complete kits, etc.
I think government profile is best all around if you're the average soldier. You're carrying tons of other crap, you don't need pinpoint accuracy, and you probably won't need to use your rifle as a makeshift LMG.
.
It's just my opinion but HBAR's are too damn heavy and pencil barrels heat up too fast. Gov't profile is just a good compromise. It's pretty damn accurate and works very well for me.
MOTHERGREEN
01-22-2008, 23:02
heh I have an m14 weight ain't gonna bother me. does lmt use a longer barrel so they can use the birdcage or is it one of them extended dealeys?
heh I have an m14 weight ain't gonna bother me. does lmt use a longer barrel so they can use the birdcage or is it one of them extended dealeys?
They make a 10.5 inch, 14.5 inch and 16 inch uppers. Of course with the 16 inch you can use the birdcage. However with 16 inch and shorter barrels birdcages don't work as well as the Phamtoms and Vortexes. I opted for the 14.5 inch length with a Vortex; perminently attached. This way no NFA Paperwork. It's nice, compact, well balenced and being an LMT; accurate as hell.
Denny's Guns stocks LMT and does a great job on pin and weld jobs.
MOTHERGREEN
01-22-2008, 23:15
I looked there and they all said out of stock. so their 14.5 uses the extended bc? pbbt well I havn't seen the phantom 5c2 as an option on the lmt uppers anywhere.
I looked there and they all said out of stock. so their 14.5 uses the extended bc? pbbt well I havn't seen the phantom 5c2 as an option on the lmt uppers anywhere.
You have to call him. That option isn't listed on their site.
I was one of the people banned on arfcom because of what I stated about CMMG.
Almost verbatim, what I stated is that I had waited well outside of their normal shipping times and my rifle had still not shipped.
I was told that it would be at least another week until they got around to packaging mine, so in reality, almost another 2 weeks until I actually had it in my hands.
I stated that I was only going to wait until a certain day for my order, and if I had not received it by then, I would be cancelling my order.
I sent numerous emails, phone calls, etc, but would never receive a response from CMMG.
This was CMMG's response.
"I will not tolerate your displeasure with my company. Your order is hereby cancelled. You can resubmit it if you want, but you will have to wait all over again."
They did this on a public forum, in front of everybody.
About an hour later, I received an email that my account had been disabled.
They sent me an email saying they would refund my money, yet I have not seen it yet, neither has my bank (checked if they had anything pending).
All my posts, as well as the inflamatory one by CMMG, were deleted from arfcom.
On top of all this, they have an UNSATISFACTORY rating from the BBB in St Louis.
If you decide to order from them, just be aware of this.
It is all your decision.
I was one of the people banned on arfcom because of what I stated about CMMG.
Almost verbatim, what I stated is that I had waited well outside of their normal shipping times and my rifle had still not shipped.
I was told that it would be at least another week until they got around to packaging mine, so in reality, almost another 2 weeks until I actually had it in my hands.
I stated that I was only going to wait until a certain day for my order, and if I had not received it by then, I would be cancelling my order.
I sent numerous emails, phone calls, etc, but would never receive a response from CMMG.
"
This was CMMG's response.
"I will not tolerate your displeasure with my company. Your order is hereby cancelled. You can resubmit it if you want, but you will have to wait all over again."
They did this on a public forum, in front of everybody.
About an hour later, I received an email that my account had been disabled.
They sent me an email saying they would refund my money, yet I have not seen it yet, neither has my bank (checked if they had anything pending).
All my posts, as well as the inflamatory one by CMMG, were deleted from arfcom.
On top of all this, they have an UNSATISFACTORY rating from the BBB in St Louis.
If you decide to order from them, just be awacMMG must re of this.
It is all your decision.
I'm not shocked at all. CMMG must have some pull on this forum as well, as a "Reasons not to buy from CMMG" thread was deleted from existence; yesterday..
crazymoose
01-31-2008, 13:50
I'm not shocked at all. CMMG must have some pull on this forum as well, as a "Reasons not to buy from CMMG" thread was deleted from existence; yesterday..
Yeah, that bugs me. Not locked with a "stop arguing" warning or anything like that. Just *poof*, gone. I thought it was a pretty civil thread, too.
As much as I stand by CMMG and have had good experiences with them, that sort of lends credence to your conspiracy theories.
Yeah, that bugs me. Not locked with a "stop arguing" warning or anything like that. Just *poof*, gone. I thought it was a pretty civil thread, too.
Tell me about it.
that sort of lends credence to your conspiracy theories.
It's no conspiracy theory, it's a conspiracy fact!
I was lookin for that thread and found this one.... I have never dealt with aforementioned company.. However I do know that CMT makes lower recievers for Stag, RRA and a few others.. I also know I will not use a DPMS parts kit when building a lower either.. any of you that own a RRA just look at your serial number, mostlikely it will start with a CM for CMT.. Both my RRA's do. My LMT does not!!! A lot of people like DPMS lowers and other parts, but not their lower quality parts kits / FCG's .... We'll probably see this this thread dissappear now!
We'll probably see this this thread dissappear now!
Maybe. However they can't erase it from our memories.
jrs93accord
01-31-2008, 15:08
I was pretty set on 14.5 bbl phantom 5c2 and car handguards... I don't see anyone else making that. I hope the things about cmmg are just a few bad apples cuz I'd like to go with them. a lmt upper without bcg costs the same as a cmmg without bcg but to buy the bcg seperate it costs more than the complete cmmg would... bah somebody help me :faint:
When I began the build of the rifle pictured below, I went to CMMG for the upper part of the build. I spec'd everything out on the order and was told it would deliver in 7-14 working days. 14 working days came and went and they had not even started. They said they were waiting on the gas block. To make a long story short, I ended up cancelling the order since they could not deliver it in the specified amount of time. I turned right around and ordered a LMT 14.5" M4 flattop upper, Phantom 5C1, MI handguards, MI flip-up front and rear sights, MI low profile gas block, LMT FA BCG, CMT charging handle, PRI Big Latch, and ERGO rail covers. I did all the work myself and had it assembled in about one hour. I am much happier with what I have and a sense of accomplishment too.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/DSC00416.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/DSC00418.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/DSC00419.jpg
Do not get me wrong, CMMG has a good product. However, they have a hard time delivering what they promise at times. Personally, I have vowed to not buy from them based on the kind of service I received.
When I began the build of the rifle pictured below, I went to CMMG for the upper part of the build. I spec'd everything out on the order and was told it would deliver in 7-14 working days. 14 working days came and went and they had not even started. They said they were waiting on the gas block. To make a long story short, I ended up cancelling the order since they could not deliver it in the specified amount of time. I turned right around and ordered a LMT 14.5" M4 flattop upper, Phantom 5C1, MI handguards, MI flip-up front and rear sights, MI low profile gas block, LMT FA BCG, CMT charging handle, PRI Big Latch, and ERGO rail covers. I did all the work myself and had it assembled in about one hour. I am much happier with what I have and a sense of accomplishment too.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/DSC00416.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/DSC00418.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/DSC00419.jpg
Do not get me wrong, CMMG has a good product. However, they have a hard time delivering what they promise at times. Personally, I have vowed to not buy from them based on the kind of service I received.
Nice build.
I know you can build one for cheaper than buying a complete rifle. I bought my first one a Rock River for 985.00 and I put this one together for under 700.00 a Armalite upper and Spikes lower and so far it works great with 400 rounds through it so far.
<a href="http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc207/cwade550/?action=view¤t=AR008.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc207/cwade550/AR008.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc207/cwade550/?action=view¤t=AR007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc207/cwade550/AR007.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
jrs93accord
01-31-2008, 16:21
I know you can build one for cheaper than buying a complete rifle. I bought my first one a Rock River for 985.00 and I put this one together for under 700.00 a Armalite upper and Spikes lower and so far it works great with 400 rounds through it so far.
I just bought the Spikes Tactical SL-15 lower for my SPR build. Extremely nice finish. Lower is completely built now an waiting on ADCO PR Mk12 Mod 0 upper.
Re reading this thread, I just saw your questions; so I'll answer them now.
Are you sure you're not mixing up the way they used to do things with the way they currently do? When they used DPMS parts, it obviously makes sense that they would have had 4140 steel. They claim that their barrels are now 4150 steel. I guess it's possible that they'd do something so risky as to just lie unabashedly about what materials they use.
I'm not mixing anything up. CMMG uses 4140 steel.
How do you know this?
About CMMG using ghost rider accounts? My buddy, that used to work for them, still has(or had) some of the names and passwords. Gorvibub(sp) is one of them.
You want to hear something shocking? M4 Builder (the guy who posts the PMCS cartoons) is closely affiliated with CMMG.
How sure are you of your source? How well do you know him? I'm a little suspcious of someone who claims to have left the job over an attack of conscience. Does it really seem plausable that someone would leave gainful employment because he was so disgusted by the company? And if he was, why didn't he report his former bosses to someone like the Better Business Bureau?
I'm very sure as he's my good buddy. As far as the reasons why he and his wife left, it's a little more complicated than that. I will say that their consciences had a lot to do with leaving a 15 dollar an hour(in rural Missouri) job. That's like getting paid 30+ dollars an hour in most urban areas.
As far as CMMG and the BBB, they've been reported more than once. Like the other guy, who posted today said; they are on the BBB's craplist.....
irish_ironsight
01-31-2008, 17:42
what about ???
http://dynamicarmament.com/images/sigrifle/sig556_dual_lg2.jpg
I got to know what you guys are being charged in the USA for one of these? answers please.. here they retail for €2400.00 / about $3500.00 :steamed:
I got to know what you guys are being charged in the USA for one of these? answers please.. here they retail for €2400.00 / about $3500.00 :steamed:
I think the first civilian models just became, or are due to become avalable in the USA.
The retail price will probably be around the same;which means few people will buy them. A good AR 15 can be had for around a third that price.
I got to know what you guys are being charged in the USA for one of these? answers please.. here they retail for €2400.00 / about $3500.00 :steamed:
my gun dealer said he could order me one for $1100 and $1400 for the swat model. gander sells them for $1900 wich is crazy
my gun dealer said he could order me one for $1100 and $1400 for the swat model. gander sells them for $1900 wich is crazy
Perhaps I was wrong. It seems like we can probably get them for less than half of what they are charging in Ireland.
I'm guessing Irish Gun Laws are better than English, if those rifles are sold to civilians.
RMTactical
01-31-2008, 20:37
I like Stag Arms and LMT.
I like Stag Arms and LMT.
Stag makes a decent product, however there are a few things I don't like.
They don't make a 14.5 carbine gas rifle and they don't have M4 Feedramps.
There have also been many reports about the front sight block being undersized and or barrel being crooked. My first AR was a Stag model 2T and I had that problem. I fixed it with a Bushmaster .40 taller front sight post. I could have sent it back but I didn't want to bother.
Their lowers are top notch.
LMT is top notch , IMO.
I'm relatively new to glocktalk. I have been reading a great deal on ar15.com trying to decide which AR I want.
What I am looking for is an AR15 CAR - I don't like the M4 style barrel - I was told that the hbar is what comes on the RRA car a4. I do want the flattop receiver, and the 16" chrome lined barrel.
I was real close to ordering a RRA tactical car with the dominator 2 sight for $910 shipped plus a $25 ffl transfer fee.
So, I've been reading, reading, and reading. Then I have done more reading, reading, and reading. There is just too much info out there to digest in a short period.
I've read that it is only cheaper to build one AR if you plan on building a higher end one. Incidentally, I don't have any of the special tools needed.
Should I just buy an upper and a lower and put them together? Or what? I need some direction. I don't want to spend more than $1K, and it would be nice to do this for around $800.
I have owned close to 20 long guns over the past 25 plus years, and I have never spent near the amount of money on my previous long guns that I am about to on an AR.
Thanks for any help.
I'm relatively new to glocktalk. I have been reading a great deal on ar15.com trying to decide which AR I want.
What I am looking for is an AR15 CAR - I don't like the M4 style barrel - I was told that the hbar is what comes on the RRA car a4. I do want the flattop receiver, and the 16" chrome lined barrel.
I was real close to ordering a RRA tactical car with the dominator 2 sight for $910 shipped plus a $25 ffl transfer fee.
So, I've been reading, reading, and reading. Then I have done more reading, reading, and reading. There is just too much info out there to digest in a short period.
I've read that it is only cheaper to build one AR if you plan on building a higher end one. Incidentally, I don't have any of the special tools needed.
Should I just buy an upper and a lower and put them together? Or what? I need some direction. I don't want to spend more than $1K, and it would be nice to do this for around $800.
Thanks for any help.
I would buy the upper and lower seperetly. Stag makes a nice Lower stripped or complete for a very good price. With the Stag Complete Lowers, they come with Mil Spec Buffer Tubes; which will allow you more and better stock options. Figure on spending around 275-300 bucks for the complete lower.
On the upper, an LMT(IMO) would be best. Figure on spending another 650-750 for an upper with BC, Rear sight etc.
I know you say you want a 16 inch carbine barrel upper. The only reasons why they exist is because of US Gun Laws. If you want to go 16 inch a mid line gas system is better. In the alternative, get a 14.5 inch carbine upper and have a Vortex or Phantom pinned and welded. This will make for a more balenced, better looking and most importantly; a rifle with the proper amount of dwell time.
You can probably do it for around 1k but if you want the real good stuff you're talking more money. My most expensive AR Build is pushing 2.5k; when you include optics, tactical rails, drop in trigers etc.
If I go with stag stripped lower what parts kit would you recommend? What brand 6 pos stock?
On ar15.com on ee they have stag stripped lowers for 115 shipped. I want quality, but I don't have to have the absolute best since this will sit in my safe 99% of the time. I do want to keep it under $1K.
thanks
One thing I don't understand is why go with a 14.5" barrel and then have to use a flash suppressor to bring it back out to 16"? Why not just go with 16" to begin with and not loose 1.5" of velocity out of the barrel?
thanks
One thing I don't understand is why go with a 14.5" barrel and then have to use a flash suppressor to bring it back out to 16"? Why not just go with 16" to begin with and not loose 1.5" of velocity out of the barrel?
thanks
The loss in velocity is negligable. The things you gain are compactness, a much more well balenced feel and the proper amount of "dwell time". A 20 inch rifle and a 14.5 inch carbine both have the optimal dwell time; having around 6.7 inches of barrel beyond the gas port(to the muzzle). When you add another 1.5 inches to the 14.5 and bring it up to 8.2 inches, you increase dwell time to the point of where you'll have more reliability issues. There is a lot more to it but I just gave you a condensed version.
I'm not saying there aren't 16 inch carbine rifles that run okay.(most of the time) What I am saying is that for best function, 16 inch AR's and a carbine gas system is not most ideal. If you want 16 inches, for a better look, feel and function; get one with a midline gas system.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o145/vincepasqua/14_inch_barrel_vs_16_inch_barrel_01.jpg
A little over an inch may not seem like much. However it makes a significant difference when it comes to maneuverability in vehicles, close quarters and overall balence. You can shave another 3/4's of an inch with a Viltor Modstock.
Also, with a 16 inch setup, of any gas system, you really need(IMO) a flash hider larger(Better) than the A2. By the time you add that, you're geting an overall barrel length of over 17.5 inches.
standerson
02-15-2008, 23:39
LMT, Noveske, Stag, RRA, even Bushmaster are good choices.
Avoid OLympic, DPMS and CMMG.
You can save money in most cases if you buy the upper and lower seperetly. More importantly, you can better customise your build.
IMHO - I've never had problems with DPMS and CMMG. Never bought anything Olympic made.
ex95bravo
02-15-2008, 23:42
I decided to purchase my first AR and then start building one, I can get a Stag M4 Car with handle type? for about 740-ish at a local store, what should I look for when purchasing one of these?
standerson
02-15-2008, 23:42
Building your own is fairly easy. Depends if you want a plinker and something more.
Buy a lower. aimsuplus has them stripped for about $90.00 and one with internals for aboutr $180.00.
IMHO - I've never had problems with DPMS and CMMG. Never bought anything Olympic made.
I'd trust DPMS over CMMG. Anyway they use the same LPK's.
BTW, I spoke to my buddy and he gave me permission to reveal his identity.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o145/vincepasqua/Pop.jpg
His name is Mike Sutton and he's the guy, pointing, just to the left of John.(the guy with the giant freezie pop) John is the owner of CMMG. Mikes wife Brenda is all the way to the right.
He(and his wife) were 5 year employees of CMMG until recently.
So to some of you nay sayers who douted my source who IS in the know regarding CMMG; what say you now?
I do want to correct something I posted earlier in this thread. CMMG uses a combination of 4140 and 4150 steel, depending on the builds. HOWEVER, the 4150 is not the Mil Spec 4150 CMV that Bushmaster, LMT and other better barrel makers use.
I'm a civilian, so this rifle will not be used for everyday survival or job related purposes. I want a rifle that I can have fun with, take to the woods and shoot a coyote or two, keep in the jeep during deer season for the "just in case", and also have at the house so if we ever get invaded by zombies or some other foreign force I can give them 5 minutes of hell.
Couple of questions:
1. What is dwell time?
2. Do I really need a chrome lined barrel? b/c I would like to handload for it and get some sub MOA accuracy out of the rifle since I may pop a few yotes with it
3. From what I have read I do want the 1/7 twist b/c I may shoot a few heavier rounds out of it - and if 1/7 is best for most purposes then why do most manufacturers offer 1/9?
I'm just ready to buy one already!
thanks
Also, who makes a good lower parts kit?
thanks
Also, who makes a good lower parts kit?
thanks
Stag.
1. What is dwell time?
2. Do I really need a chrome lined barrel? b/c I would like to handload for it and get some sub MOA accuracy out of the rifle since I may pop a few yotes with it
3. From what I have read I do want the 1/7 twist b/c I may shoot a few heavier rounds out of it - and if 1/7 is best for most purposes then why do most manufacturers offer 1/9?
thanks
In short, dwell time is the amount of time the bullet says in the barrel beyond the gas port; before it exists the muzzle. The bulet acts like a plug that keeps gas pressure high while it's flowing through the gas port, down the gas tube and into the BC; operating the action.
Too much dwell time can lead to extraction issues and too little can lead to short stroking. There are also pressure issues that come into play too with different gas systems; pistol having the highest and extended having the lowest.
Like i said for best function with a carbine gas system, 14.5 inches is the way to go. If you want 16, get a middy.
As far as twist rates, both 1/7 and 1/9 wil serve you fine. The 1/7 is better for extra long/heavy bullets but the 1/9 won't overstablize the lighter(below 50 grain) bullets. The reason the military ises 1/7 is because of the extemely long AP rounds. The reason why many makers use 1/9 is due to several reasons.
1) It's a little cheaper to manufacture.
2) The barrels will last longer than a 1/7
3) and in the world we live in and the ammunition we shoot; a 1/7 will be marginally less accurate with 55 grain and lighter bullets.
I own both(1/7 and 1/9) twist rates and since all i shoot are 55 and 62 grain reloads, thay both serve me extremely well.
Unless you shoot tons of extra heavy/long bulets, a 1/9 is probably best all around.
Here is an excellent read that explains how an AR works, dwelll time and other things in detail.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=266108
Oh, and as far as a chrome lined barrel and chamber, I wouldn't have an AR without one.
wickeddeus
02-18-2008, 06:57
I would take a look at this review here too: http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81462
I would take a look at this review here too: http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81462
That's another great source for info.
I may have asked this already, but is it cheaper for me to buy an upper and a lower then put them together? or I am I just better off just buying the whole rife?
thanks
I may have asked this already, but is it cheaper for me to buy an upper and a lower then put them together? or I am I just better off just buying the whole rife?
thanks
Buy the upper and lower separately.
I'm not trying to come off as an apologist for CMMG but I think some of your criticisms may be wrong. But I've heard other people say similar things and I'd like to get to the bottom of this because I like CMMG, but may have to take another look at them.
CMMG used to build thier guns exclusively from DPMS parts, as I recall, but that changed a few years ago. Lots of companies claim to "make" AR-15s. Most just assemble parts from subcontractors. As far as I know, CMMG uses CMT bolt groups and receivers, CMT or DPMS lower parts kits, and mahcines their own (or has someone machine to their specs) proprietary barrels.
Are you sure you're not mixing up the way they used to do things with the way they currently do? When they used DPMS parts, it obviously makes sense that they would have had 4140 steel. They claim that their barrels are now 4150 steel. I guess it's possible that they'd do something so risky as to just lie unabashedly about what materials they use.
This was the guy who got the bad barrel and wouldn't let them make it right. Considering that he rejected their help and kept on complaining, I wouldn't have done any more business with him, either.
How do you know this?
How sure are you of your source? How well do you know him? I'm a little suspcious of someone who claims to have left the job over an attack of conscience. Does it really seem plausable that someone would leave gainful employment because he was so disgusted by the company? And if he was, why didn't he report his former bosses to someone like the Better Business Bureau? This sounds suspiciously like the story someone who got fired might cook up as a pretext for spreading bad rumors about his former employer.
The BBB is a paper tiger, no teeth. :steamed:
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