Do You Feel "Undergunned" carrying the Snubbie?

[badge4436]

I have heard people say the snubbie is very convenient to carry but they felt undergunned while relying on it alone. When you consider your lifestyle-- where you go in your personal and business affairs, is this really an issue?

I make a point of staying out of situations and places I know have a credible and probable likelihood of a confrontation with criminals. Just about all of us have an area in town you want to stay out of. Having carried a gun both in patrol and as a detective for 30 years I don't feel undergunned with the J-Frame. I would have had to be deaf and blind not to get a "street sense" in all that time. I wasn't sitting behind a desk. The snubbie suits me just fine now that I am retired. I practice often with it and am fast and accurate with it. Fast in shooting and in reloading. Nothing unique there, just a matter of practice.

How many of you feel comfortable with just the snubbie when you go out and how many of you feel undergunned?

[G33]

Feel fine with snub.
:supergrin:

[mitchshrader]

uhm. yes. i cheat. pachmayer boot grips and a 3" barrel and heavy loads, +P 158s.

i'd rather have a 4" pencil barrel round butt model 10 with the same loads, and will when i find it. :)

[RemSp10]

undergunned heck no.:supergrin:
my snubby works great for me.
but still like to carry my colt .45 and 19 at times.

[Goldendog Redux]

I never feel undergunned with my 642. Granted I usually have a 1911 with me as well.:supergrin:

Really though, just tooling around town I do not feel undergunned with my Smiff, I can shoot it well and I figure five rounds of .38+P stuck in a bad guy should go a long way in stopping th bad guy from doing what he is doing.

MF

[ok47s]

I have heard people say the snubbie is very convenient to carry but they felt undergunned while relying on it alone. When you consider your lifestyle-- where you go in your personal and business affairs, is this really an issue?

I make a point of staying out of situations and places I know have a credible and probable likelihood of a confrontation with criminals. Just about all of us have an area in town you want to stay out of. Having carried a gun both in patrol and as a detective for 30 years I don't feel undergunned with the J-Frame. I would have had to be deaf and blind not to get a "street sense" in all that time. I wasn't sitting behind a desk. The snubbie suits me just fine now that I am retired. I practice often with it and am fast and accurate with it. Fast in shooting and in reloading. Nothing unique there, just a matter of practice.

How many of you feel comfortable with just the snubbie when you go out and how many of you feel undergunned?

My comfort zone with the snub as a primary weapon for ccw continues to decrease as the number of armed attacks involving multiple criminals increase.My snub now serves as a pocket carry back-up.

[Gunboat1]

Yes. A snub is really not enough, because 5 rounds is all you are likely to be able to use. Ever try to reload a snub under extreme stress? It ain't likely to happen.

Mine is used only when I can't carry a Glock that is more effective (and ANY Glock is). Whenever those occasions occur, I do feel undergunned.

Criminals run in packs these days. Misses happen. And one round rarely solves the problem with a determined bad guy. Somewhere in that arithmetic, you drop the hammer on an empty chamber, and that ain't a good thing.

[h2o-5o]

IMO, a realistic analysis of a SD situation leaves me comfortable with a J-frame. To use deadly force against someone, you must be able to articulate why you felt your life was in immediate danger. Quite frankly, if three or more assailants are using weapons against me, I really don't think I could draw a $2000 custom 1911 from concealment and stop them, at least not before at least one would be able to pull the trigger.

On the other hand, if proper tactics and cover are utilized, in all likelihood the rest will turn tail and run, after I fire the first shot into one of them.

I am firmly convinced that a large percentage of folks who tout the "latest and greatest" autoloader, are envisioning themselves being Todd Jarrett or Rob Leatham at an IPSC event.

[Gunboat1]

Many, many average men have won fights against superior numbers - if their weapon was capable of it. You can't use capability you aren't carrying. The fight in the dog is more important than the dog in the fight - but if your weapon runs dry, you are pretty much done.

"I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

[Glockanatorrrrr]

Let me shoot you with it. Tell me what you think. :tongueout: I have heard this before but for me it's a carry gun while at work and a BUG when off. I carry a speed loader and a speed strip so 15 shots. I have a 340pd so 5 of .38+p or .357 I feel fine with this gun.

To each there own though. I used to pocket carry a P3at and felt undergunned so I swithed to the 340pd.

[MCPreacher]

The fight in the dog is more important than the dog in the fight

While a very amusing saying, it doesn't really fit the situation.

When pitting a rottweiler against a chihuahua, the willingness to fight doesn't do the chihuahua a lot of good.... :tongueout:

[Berto]

I'd imagine any gun won't feel like enough when a gunfight happens.
As it's been, I didn't need to shoot and the snubby sufficied.
The idea that 3-4 guys are going to stand around stoically while you empty your gun into one of them is also a bit of a sretch, be it a snubby or Mac 10.
I carry what I can, usually it's a five shooter.

[stmcelroy]

The majority of the time I feel well armed with my little 340PD, for the times I don't I still have my Glock 19.

[G27Chief]

In as much as I regulate mine to the defense of myself and others, and not for use as a SWAT entry gun I feel well armed. I have to admit it is rarely the only gun I have on, however when it is I feel well armed for the situations I have been in. I have to generalize, becuase I carry one of the many j frame .38's I own.

[DeadMansLife]

Yes, I do feel under gunned with my SP101. I only carry a snub if I cannot carry something bigger. Also. part of my plan is to use the snub to get so my G31 of Mossy either in the car or house.

[rob700]

Currently torn between a Glock 23 and a S+W airweights to compliment my Glock 27. Can't come to grips with 5 shots vs multiple mags.

The snub would be ideal as a day to day CCW.

At night the G27 and a S+W pocket rocket would seem ideal for some of my nightime photography excursions which attract the enevitable homeless vampire or werewolf. They worry me less than the organized thugs.

I figure a little shock and awe to give me enough time to draw the Glock.

My Taurus 85 is totally unreliable... so thus my dilemma.

[G27Chief]

OK class tell me at what distance and how many rounds are fired on average in a defensive gunfight?

[RemSp10]

IMO, a realistic analysis of a SD situation leaves me comfortable with a J-frame. To use deadly force against someone, you must be able to articulate why you felt your life was in immediate danger. Quite frankly, if three or more assailants are using weapons against me, I really don't think I could draw a $2000 custom 1911 from concealment and stop them, at least not before at least one would be able to pull the trigger.

On the other hand, if proper tactics and cover are utilized, in all likelihood the rest will turn tail and run, after I fire the first shot into one of them.

I am firmly convinced that a large percentage of folks who tout the "latest and greatest" autoloader, are envisioning themselves being Todd Jarrett or Rob Leatham at an IPSC event.

I must say that this post better describes any of them so far.
And yes most of the other posts have some valid points but this one seems to me the most logical. Most "gun fights" wont last past a few rounds or so i don't think. (IMHO only )
One poster mentioned useing their .38 until they can get to their auto that is in the car or house,by that time it is either too late or the BG is gone.
just my nickels worth for what its worth.:supergrin:

[Gunboat1]

While a very amusing saying, it doesn't really fit the situation.

When pitting a rottweiler against a chihuahua, the willingness to fight doesn't do the chihuahua a lot of good.... :tongueout:

My point exactly. The will to fight is the most important variable - but even with it, if your equipment isn't sufficient to the task, you will come up short. A 5-shot snub might be enough for an "average" gunfight. But what if your assailant(s) are above average criminals?

5 ain't enough.

I say again: "I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

[RemSp10]

My point exactly. The will to fight is the most important variable - but even with it, if your equipment isn't sufficient to the task, you will come up short. A 5-shot snub might be enough for an "average" gunfight. But what if your assailant(s) are above average criminals?
5 ain't enough.

I say again: "I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

Average , Above Average. ???????????????.

Any body out there ever been in a "gun fight" with the BG'S. (Maybe a new thread on this question and share your experiance with us. Not looking for any "what if" "or " stuff .just what took place how long it lasted and such.)

[Dandapani]

OK class tell me at what distance and how many rounds are fired on average in a defensive gunfight?

3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

[badge4436]

3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

That's what FBI studies in the past have said after studying a few years worth of police gunfights.

However since the event of the wonder-nine in police work shots fired must have gone up on the part of the police. I know of several recent events where the young coppers are busting ten or more caps in an event where we had to settle it in six back in "the day." (I think G27Chief might back me up on this.) I made the transition to the semi-auto (Beretta 92F) in my career and never felt that comfortable with it compared to the revolver.

[G27Chief]

That's what FBI studies in the past have said after studying a few years worth of police gunfights.

However since the event of the wonder-nine in police work shots fired must have gone up on the part of the police. I know of several recent events where the young coppers are busting ten or more caps in an event where we had to settle it in six back in "the day." (I think G27Chief might back me up on this.) I made the transition to the semi-auto (Beretta 92F) in my career and never felt that comfortable with it compared to the revolver.

We were trained in a different way. Marksmanship, with an emphasis on speed. The wonder nine, "hollywoodized" gun fight thinking with the spray and pray technique. Some, well hell probally more then we wish to know pick up the weapon once a year on the range. I knew of some before the passage og a POST rule that had not received firearms training since the academy. I go with the shot placement and stopping the threat technique. Get on target quickly, and stay there until the threat is gone.

Giving up my model 686 for the 5903, I would still fire the same practice strings as before 2 then 1. Now a G27, 23 or 22 and I feel fine in the ability to perform my duty.

I will reply REM SP10, One BG 2 rounds of 38+p+ at 23.5' hits in the upper left quadrant of the chest just right of center. BG stopped, still doing time in his wheelchair, paralyzed from the nipples down. That was 21 years ago, dark of night, no weapon mounted flashlight, night sites, 15 round magazines, and a AR 15 was somthing they had down at the National Guard Armory. We made it through, but now the idea of no patrol carbine, or surefires, is almost unimaginable.

[Gunboat1]

3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

This is exactly the "average" gunfight I was talking about, that is frequently quoted. It is no longer enough for my comfort level.

Read the news once in a while.

[whistler52]

3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

This statistic means that a significant percentage of gunfights require MORE than 3 rounds.

Never been in a gunfight, but I imagine there are several things to worry about. Would be nice not to have to worry about running out of ammo.

[RemSp10]

[Quote]I will reply REM SP10, One BG 2 rounds of 38+p+ at 23.5' hits in the upper left quadrant of the chest just right of center. BG stopped, still doing time in his wheelchair, paralyzed from the nipples down. That was 21 years ago, dark of night, no weapon mounted flashlight, night sites, 15 round magazines, and a AR 15 was somthing they had down at the National Guard Armory. We made it through, but now the idea of no patrol carbine, or surefires, is almost unimaginable.[Quote]
*******************************************************
Thanks Chief, Glad the ole .38 kept you safe,these are the kind of stories that we can relate to ,some times the caliber, shot placement, shooting in to gel info means nothing, it is all good info but some times hard to understand.
When you put it into just plain english thats when what i understand. the cold hard facts.
Ya in 21 years a lot has happended in the gun and LEO field.
Stay Safe out there.

[g88]

In my snubs I use the Federal #357B - the 125gr full-power .357 mag. In the 340PD (1-7/8" barrel) I get 1170 fps. I was told that this would be about an 82% stopper. From the 640-3 stainless (2-1/8" barrel) I get about 1245 fps, and I'm told this would be about a 91% stopper. Both of these estimates for this round in these snubs came from people familiar with the Marshall and Sanow methods. But I've never seen test bullets for the Fed 125gr round from these snubs. Note that the estimated 91% figure for the 640-3 is equal to the 115gr +P+ from a 4-inch auto in the Marshall book.
-----------------------------------------------
One of the most valuable skills a person can have
is the ability to shoot a J-frame well.

[Rex G]

Some thoughts: I recently took a robbery report in which five assailants closed in from two directions to rob a guy; when he fled the first two, a shotgun blast was fired at him, and he then ran into the other three, at leeast one of whom opened up on him with autoloader pistol fire. This was a "good" part of town, well-lit, and the intended victim a teenage grocery store stock boy walking home, listening to his Ipod. He dodged and ran, going over fences into the next block. There were numerous witnesses, who viewed part of this scenario while at a convenience store, where I frequently stop.

In the next block, not long afterward, I took a robbery report from a couple, who were approached by two pistol-wielding bad guys, who robbed them at gunpoint. Remember, I said well-lit, "good" part of town. I used to live in this neighborhood, and I still eat at restaurants in the immediate area. I still shop at the grocery store where the stock boy works. I walked the dog past the location of these roberies many times. Does this mean I need a wonder nine? No, I don't even own one.

Even before these incidents, my normal minimum, and my 24/7 always/everywhere weapon was a Ruger SP101, almost always accompanied by another firearm, from a second SP101 on up, plus reloads. I have practiced reloads, and I mean REALLY practiced. Yes, I am comfortable with snubbies, though it's nice if one is a bit bigger, perhaps my 4" Ruger Speed Six, that can share ammo with the snubby. The mind is the weapon, and alertness/awareness allows the mind to win battles. There will always be scenarios where any level of armament will fall short. The biggest limitation of snubbies, as I see it, is the short sight radius, and the smaller profile of the sights, limiting one's effective range. So, there is nothing wrong with a snubby as a close-range tool, if its ammo capacity and shootability are kept in mind.

[machinisttx]

No, not in the least. Marksmanship trumps round count any day of the week.

[sphillips45]

Never cause most of the time my 642 is a backup to this..

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/glockshooter34/6861.jpg

[cowboywannabe]

when im limited in waredrobe(sp?) i will drop two J frames in the front pockets and carry on....

[Berto]

Some thoughts: I recently took a robbery report in which five assailants closed in from two directions to rob a guy; when he fled the first two, a shotgun blast was fired at him, and he then ran into the other three, at leeast one of whom opened up on him with autoloader pistol fire. This was a "good" part of town, well-lit, and the intended victim a teenage grocery store stock boy walking home, listening to his Ipod. He dodged and ran, going over fences into the next block. There were numerous witnesses, who viewed part of this scenario while at a convenience store, where I frequently stop.

In the next block, not long afterward, I took a robbery report from a couple, who were approached by two pistol-wielding bad guys, who robbed them at gunpoint. Remember, I said well-lit, "good" part of town. I used to live in this neighborhood, and I still eat at restaurants in the immediate area. I still shop at the grocery store where the stock boy works. I walked the dog past the location of these roberies many times. Does this mean I need a wonder nine? No, I don't even own one.

Even before these incidents, my normal minimum, and my 24/7 always/everywhere weapon was a Ruger SP101, almost always accompanied by another firearm, from a second SP101 on up, plus reloads. I have practiced reloads, and I mean REALLY practiced. Yes, I am comfortable with snubbies, though it's nice if one is a bit bigger, perhaps my 4" Ruger Speed Six, that can share ammo with the snubby. The mind is the weapon, and alertness/awareness allows the mind to win battles. There will always be scenarios where any level of armament will fall short. The biggest limitation of snubbies, as I see it, is the short sight radius, and the smaller profile of the sights, limiting one's effective range. So, there is nothing wrong with a snubby as a close-range tool, if its ammo capacity and shootability are kept in mind.


I agree, there will always be scenarios that underscore firepower.
Being alert is far the more important and a prepared mindset trumps any difference between choice of handguns, IMO.
I don't see the snubby as being the best handgun for everything by any stretch, but its unique qualities of reliability, power and pocketability allow a level of threat response that balance well for the typical situations folks like me benefit from.
Hand in pocket= hand on gun.

[cowboywannabe]

so true....well rehersed tactics will trump the coolest gun.

in the incident mentioned above....if a single bad guy from any of the groups took a .38spl in the gut, it would probably have stopped the attack, as no one, i mean no one wants to be shot, and a targeted victim fighting back is a criminal's worst nightmare because they can deliver far more justice than any of our inept court systems.

[RemSp10]

Take out the most aggressive one first ,the others will most likely see that and say "I'am out of here".
Saw that on tv once and makes pretty good since to me>:wavey:

[Rustydude]

I actualy feel overgunned carrying my 340 SC. 5 rounds are better than none that one day your in a rush and leave your "Big" gun home, or in the glove box. I doubt any of the thugs will be wearing hearing protection, The muzzle blast will take out the first half dozen or so, and after 5 shots, I'll beat the snot out of those standing with my 12oz scandium face smasher!:cool:

[Aquanewt]

I carried a S&W M-36 3inch with 158 gr lswhp +P's (issue round) when I was a Detective before we went to Glocks. I always carried 2 speed loaders and never felt under armed. That extra inch of barrel added so much to the accuracy of that gun. Still in the vault.

[prairieviper]

I'm comfortable with my J frame 38 Special and a speedloader with five extras for off-duty carry. I believe that the realistic potential of winning the power ball lottery is probably better than having to use your piece to defend yourself against an attacker(s), let alone running dry and having to reload. I choose to live my life by planning for probabilities, not possibilities. There is a lot more to being prepared than just carrying a gun.

Each persons circumstances, abilities and comfort levels are different and each person has to decide what is right for them.

[leidenheimer]

I'm just getting back into owning a snubbie and this is my thought. The snub will be a great throw into the pocket gun for me when hitting the local stores or going someplace "rather safe". I feel in these places I will be properly equipped. I know noone can predict when or where a violent offense will occur but if I were to go into a "not so safe place of known origin" (East Side of Cleveland for example) I would have a snub for a BUG and probably carry my G21 with pleanty of extra mags.

Time, place and situation will dictate when I carry the snub or something with more punch and capacity.

[badge4436]

I'm comfortable with my J frame 38 Special and a speedloader with five extras for off-duty carry. I believe that the realistic potential of winning the power ball lottery is probably better than having to use your piece to defend yourself against an attacker(s), let alone running dry and having to reload. I choose to live my life by planning for probabilities, not possibilities. There is a lot more to being prepared than just carrying a gun.

Each persons circumstances, abilities and comfort levels are different and each person has to decide what is right for them.

Amen brother. Well said.

[Gunboat1]

Amen brother. Well said.

"Here lies McGruff
Thought five was enough
If he'd had eleven
He wouldn't be in heaven."

At least as good an epitaph as " I probably won't need more firepower, statistically".


Glock 26 or snub against a group of three or more, assuming that you miss with a round or two under stress (as is extremely likely, especially in light of the tiny sights, heavy trigger and short barrel of a snub)?

[Chup]

I never felt underguned. I carry a 5 shot 357 Snub IWB and a 5 shot 38+p Snub in my back pocket. I also carry reloads for both.:2gun:

[SAWBONES]

"Do You Feel "Undergunned" carrying the Snubbie?"

No.
Or at least not until I recognize that I'm being attacked by more than five ex-con big behemoth gangsters.:)

[Goldstar225]

I believe that my 642 will probably handle most, if not all, situations I'm likely to encounter when I'm off duty. That being said, I feel "undergunned" if I have anything less than an 870 or AR-15 in my hands.

[bamarammin87]

I feel fine most of the time with my 638 with +p hollowpoints in it. I do wish there was a way to conceal my .45 tho.

[Walter45Auto]

Nope! I can shoot it accurately enough, and my Taurus 617 holds 7 rounds of .357 Magnum. I feel just fine using it as my EDC.

[AJSully421]

3 rounds, 3 YARDS, 3 seconds... and that was before auto pistols became the norm... now it might be more like 30 rounds, 3 yards, 3 seconds?

Do I feel under gunned? YES, but then again, i feel under gunned with a 20 round mag in my scoped AR-15 because the 30's are too tall to shoot out of the blind, or when bird hunting with just 3 rounds instead of 5...so take that for what it is worth.

Someone talked about probabilities... If i were playing the numbers game as it really is, all I would ever carry is a snubbie, and have the 870 at home because there is a 1 in ten million chance that someone will try to kill me. But, knowing that stuff happens, I carry a G30 with 230+p HST, and a S&W 642 with Rem. .38 +P 158 LSWC, and have a RRA middy A2 in the truck with 2 30 round mags cinched together loaded with 75grn TAP, and I keep every single gun that i own loaded and ready to go (even a #7 shot in the .410)

Really, a snubbie is great for family gatherings, church, walking the dog and other "condition yellow" activities.

[DonB]

Would any of you trade your snub for the new 380 LCP by Ruger?

[AJSully421]

Would any of you trade your snub for the new 380 LCP by Ruger?


Negative

[sphillips45]

Would any of you trade your snub for the new 380 LCP by Ruger?


No!!!!

[Quarterbore]

I have a really CHEAP Tarus M85, well actually it is my wife's gun and it shoots every bit as accuratley as my Glocks and perhaps even better even with the short barrel and primative sights. I prefer to have more gun on me but there are times when I carry the little revolver instead of something bigger and I have never woried about not having enough gun on me.

If I am ever going into a situation where I feal I need more gun, I will have either the Glock 21 on me and the hell with my normal G19 CCW!

[glockess56]

Would I trade my snubby for Ruger LCP? No, but I would like to have the LCP to add to my gun collection.

[Dobber]

I carry a snub when I'm running down the street or walking the dog but I feel better when I'm carring my G26. I hope I never need it but if I do I would much rather have 13 rds of +p 9mm over 5 rds of +p 38. That said I will always have a j frame.

[prairieviper]

"Here lies McGruff
Thought five was enough
If he'd had eleven
He wouldn't be in heaven."

At least as good an epitaph as " I probably won't need more firepower, statistically".


Glock 26 or snub against a group of three or more, assuming that you miss with a round or two under stress (as is extremely likely, especially in light of the tiny sights, heavy trigger and short barrel of a snub)?


Clever little poem but doesn't really mean anything. Catchy phrases and quotes abound on the internet, particularly on gun forums. Have you heard the one that goes something like "If you can't get the job done with the first six rounds what makes you think you will fair any better with the next six?" Of course, everyone has heard of Chicken Little and that famous line, "The sky is falling, the sky is faling." I could go on but you get the drift. Threat assessments, comfort zones and a lot of other factors come into play regarding what one should carry to protect themselves. What is right for you may be completely wrong for someone else.

[sourdough44]

We have been watching to many movies with the 50 round shootouts.

[Chup]

If you get attacked by three guys. Do you really think you can take out three be for one of them will take you out? Maybe if you had an A.K. Full Auto. If a group came after me I will be getting behind cover and then Two Revolvers and 20rnds. of Reloads should do it.

[Gunboat1]

If you get attacked by three guys. Do you really think you can take out three be for one of them will take you out? Maybe if you had an A.K. Full Auto. If a group came after me I will be getting behind cover and then Two Revolvers and 20rnds. of Reloads should do it.

As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I will be carrying a gun - not all of them may be. I have been extensively trained and am an experienced firearms/close combat instructor - I doubt they are. I practice a lot - not all of them do, most probably. I will seize the initiative - denying it to them. I will seek and use cover - unless they have been well-trained (an unlikely probability), they may very well not.

But none of that will matter if I run out of ammo after 5 rounds. "If you can't get the job done with the first six, what makes you think you will "fair" (sic) any better with the next 6?" It was a 7-10 round job, that's what.

Is carrying two wheelguns really better than carrying one good hi-cap semiauto? And if you think you will be reloading 20 rounds into a snub or two, you are the one who is dreaming. Good luck with that.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean that anyone else can't. Train a little - you will be surprised to learn what can be done - with the proper tools. :upeyes:

[Dean]

A friend wrote:
As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I will be carrying a gun - not all of them may be. I have been extensively trained and am an experienced firearms/close combat instructor - I doubt they are. I practice a lot - not all of them do, most probably. I will seize the initiative - denying it to them. I will seek and use cover - unless they have been well-trained (an unlikely probability), they may very well not.

+1
With a large bore semiautomatic pistol with a Crimson Trace laser, I'm well armed. I can take on violent criminals without hesitation with that type of weapon. A Glock 23. A Sig P226, or a Beretta 92. Duty pistols are "better" to fight with than BUGS.

With a snub I'm less well armed. It's a BUG or hideout gun. Crimson Trace lasergrips are essential on the snub for me, just as they are on the Walther PPK/S.
I can't see the stock sights on those weapons if I'm in a hurry/moving. I can barely see the front sight of those weapons standing still.

[just for fun]

Without starting the old Ford VS chevy wars. I see no reason to carry more firearm than a snubbie. Still got a kimber pro carry and after lugging that around all day it really became a pain in the hip! Glocks do not even enter the picture. you want and carry one? fine! I don't and won't. nuf said about that. They do make fun range guns!(if that counts) Out of all my auto's the only one I might consider is a Smith model 39-2!! Built in 1975. Got a thing for that Smith, but she too is on the bulky side.So after yrs of carrying this or that I come full circle and back to my model 36 J frame. First gun I bought back in 68! Saved for months to come up with the layway money! Oh yea $68 new!!!

[KYMike]

As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I will be carrying a gun - not all of them may be. I have been extensively trained and am an experienced firearms/close combat instructor - I doubt they are. I practice a lot - not all of them do, most probably. I will seize the initiative - denying it to them. I will seek and use cover - unless they have been well-trained (an unlikely probability), they may very well not.

This isn't personal, just an observation, but I would expect more from a tactical instructor. Underestimating your opponent is the surest way to lose a battle...and fast.

The arrogance shown in your post indicates you're living in a dream world. In a perfect world, maybe only some of your opponents will be armed, maybe you'll be better trained, maybe you'll have the first shot, and maybe you'll find cover. Then again, in a perfect world, you wouldn't be attacked in the first place. Statistically, armed robbers, carjackers, rapists, and kidnappers are more likely to have experience robbing, carjacking, raping, and kidnapping than a victim is to have experience defending themselves against such attacks, and experience is the best training.

So you need to plan on all of them being armed (better than you are), they'll have better skills, they'll get the drop on you, and they'll have cover and you won't. Plan for that, and you'll be all the more prepared when you do have cover and you do see them coming, but never assume, never get complacent, never think you're better than your opponent in any aspect. Respect wins battles, arrogance loses lives.

Short answer to the OP, yes, I feel undergunned with the snub, as I feel undergunned with ANY handgun. Do I carry the snub anyway...sure, lots of times. Only you can prevent forest fires, and only you can decide how much is enough to protect your family.

[Gunboat1]

This isn't personal, just an observation, but I would expect more from a tactical instructor. Underestimating your opponent is the surest way to lose a battle...and fast.

The arrogance shown in your post indicates you're living in a dream world. In a perfect world, maybe only some of your opponents will be armed, maybe you'll be better trained, maybe you'll have the first shot, and maybe you'll find cover. Then again, in a perfect world, you wouldn't be attacked in the first place. Statistically, armed robbers, carjackers, rapists, and kidnappers are more likely to have experience robbing, carjacking, raping, and kidnapping than a victim is to have experience defending themselves against such attacks, and experience is the best training.

So you need to plan on all of them being armed (better than you are), they'll have better skills, they'll get the drop on you, and they'll have cover and you won't. Plan for that, and you'll be all the more prepared when you do have cover and you do see them coming, but never assume, never get complacent, never think you're better than your opponent in any aspect. Respect wins battles, arrogance loses lives.

Short answer to the OP, yes, I feel undergunned with the snub, as I feel undergunned with ANY handgun. Do I carry the snub anyway...sure, lots of times. Only you can prevent forest fires, and only you can decide how much is enough to protect your family.

You're entitled to your opinion. How one trains and prepares for a fight we hope will never come does not equal a dispassionate analysis of the overwhelming majority of criminals and criminal assaults. Show me an example of where several thugs have trained together, armed themselves in overwhelming firepower and complementary systems, and then have performed during a fight like a tactical team would. It simply doesn't happen much. North Hollywood is about the only example I can think of, and that was pretty much unique. And they weren't mugging an individual - they were robbing a bank. Newhall, Miami, hell even Columbine don't apply. And most criminals' experience has been with UNARMED, UNTRAINED victims. That doesn't prepare them to win against a warrior.

The question was, is it reasonable to believe that one man can overcome three. My response is, unequivocally, yes, as long as their training, equipment and spirit are up to the task. That ain't arrogance - it's simple fact. History is replete with examples of when it has happened. So much for your "dream world" assertion.

And yes, I agree - one is undergunned carrying only a snub. That was the point.

[Reb 56]

Depending on the situation there are times & places i would rather have Glock 26 with 11 rounds of gold Dot 124+p than 5 shots. Though I like my 642. In Malls,large open areas such as Parks and wooded areas I"ll carry G26.

If going to local Grocery,Pharmcy or walking neighborhood in daylight 642 does it. I simply shoot glock better.

[KYMike]

And yes, I agree - one is undergunned carrying only a snub. That was the point.

My main contention was that you can never assume to have the advantage. That can lead to complacency, that's all.

If you're telling people a 10, 15, or 20 round auto will NOT leave them undergunned, I still disagree. ANY handgun is a compromise. In the unfortunate event I have to fire shots to defend myself or my family, I'd much rather have an AR/AK/shotgun than any handgun. Even then, I might still wish for more! Of course, keeping an AR in your waistband isn't practical. But you'll still be undergunned without one.

It's just a fact of life that when shots are fired, you'll ALWAYS be undergunned for comfort. The question, is how much compromise can you live with, as they're ALL a compromise. And I CAN live with the snub as a compromise sometimes. Though I'd much rather have it backed up by pepper spray and a Louisville Slugger, and have it backing up a G26, backing up a G19, backing up an AR, etc. Then again, if we knew shots would be fired, we'd probably just stay home. ;)

It's just different strokes, my man, we're all good!! ;)

[TecRsq]

Competence in your firearm, situational awareness and street smarts are the most important aspects to personal protection and they trump caliber and knockdown statistics every time the defecation hits the rotary oscillator.

Do I know everything......hell no, but I am getting training from reputable sources, practicing with my firearms as often as possible and making the training realistic.

I don't feel under gunned with a 5 shot at all.

[fowler]

I have faith in in my SW642 and if harm does come there will be dead perps.

[Rikki]

I think all the responses here have been excellent!

To specifically answer the original question...Sometimes I do.

Badguys in my area are starting to travel in packs and are committing their crimes in gangs...Everything from bank roberies,home invasions,and even muggings on bicycle/jogging trails are being carried out by 3-4 thugs. Some gangs ARE training-(MS13) if you believe the hype.

I'll pitch this out for fodder: Consider using the 5 doser as your 1st line of defense- in a fast access pocket...and have your 17 rounder in deep concealment-say a shoulder rig. In the winter I always carry a pocket gun I can get to in a hurry; and under a sweatshirt I've got a shoulder rig on that's gonna stop most fights.

[Gunboat1]

You'll never convince most of the snub enthusiasts on this board that they aren't perfectly well-armed with 5 shots out of a tiny wheelgun.

"None is so blind as him who will not see."

[mini14jac]

I carry a snub, (or a .380 LCP) most of the time and don't feel "undergunned".
As others have said, if a fight started, I'd probably feel undergunned if I had an AK. :upeyes:

I've seen police dashcam videos where an officer emptied his hi-cap auto at contact distance and missed every shot. :wow:
Higher ammo capacity may give you a survival edge, or it may not.
In any of those situations, I bet the officer would have rather had one hit than 15 misses.
As the old saying goes, "You can't miss fast enough to win the fight.".

I practice with all my guns, and I'm probably a better shot than most thugs I may encounter.
Still, there's a better chance I'll need O.C. spray than a gun.
(Still haven't gotten around to carrying it all the time.)

When I only had larger guns, I usually left them at home.
I'd rather have 5 accurate shots in my pocket than 15 shots at home, or in the truck.

Years ago, I had just gotten my CCW permit, and was at the range/gunstore for some practice.
There was a younger guy in the lane next to me with a large auto, and a large new shoulder holster.
I wondered then if he would ever wear that rig for an actual day out.
(Here in East Tennessee, we only get below 40 degrees 2 months out of the year.)
I've got a shoulder holster too, and I think I've worn it once in 15 years.

Carry whatever meets your comfort level, and hope you never have to use it.

[Lazlo]

This is truly the thread that just won't die, so I guess I'll finally weigh in. Do I feel undergunned? No. Is a snub adequate? I guess that depends on a lot of things. But I also feel as some others do that it's better than nothing at all, meaning that I'm more likely to carry my 442 day in and day out than I am a higher capacity, harder to conceal weapon and end up in a situation where I "should have carried that night" but didn't because it wasn't convenient. I'd rather be armed with five shots of something at all times than 15 shots or no shots at all sometimes.

[Shagrat]

As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I will be carrying a gun - not all of them may be. I have been extensively trained and am an experienced firearms/close combat instructor - I doubt they are. I practice a lot - not all of them do, most probably. I will seize the initiative - denying it to them. I will seek and use cover - unless they have been well-trained (an unlikely probability), they may very well not.

But none of that will matter if I run out of ammo after 5 rounds. "If you can't get the job done with the first six, what makes you think you will "fair" (sic) any better with the next 6?" It was a 7-10 round job, that's what.

Is carrying two wheelguns really better than carrying one good hi-cap semiauto? And if you think you will be reloading 20 rounds into a snub or two, you are the one who is dreaming. Good luck with that.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean that anyone else can't. Train a little - you will be surprised to learn what can be done - with the proper tools. :upeyes:

There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. "Close Combat Instructor" or not, most of the trained people I know, or have known, will tell you that things never go as you expect them to. If you have real QCB training then good for you. However, those who have practiced with thousands of rounds per week, running room clearance techniques or hostage rescue scenarios, will tell you that even with that training, the difference between a successful op. and an unsuccessful one is instinct. Combat situations are fluid and mostly chaotic.

Regarding snubbies. I have had the privilege of using many firearms in my many years. At this moment, with my lifestyle and where I live, my .44 Special is what I carry most. In the unlikely situation that I'm attacked by six BG's bent on doing me harm, then I may get one or two. Packing a G17 would only serve me better if the the remaining four stood still and compliant. In other words, in situations where multiple aggressors are involved, I'm toast. Where one or two are involved, then I will probably hurt them.

Trust your instincts.

[Gunboat1]

Ask those same people you know if 5 rounds in a hard-to-shoot package are enough in a multiple-attacker scenario, no matter WHAT their level of training or instinct. The factors you cite are exactly why a better weapon is called for. You are missing the point. If the tool isn't up to the job, all else is meaningless.

To clarify - I said a snub isn't enough. Some snubby defender said basically "well, if it's more than two guys, you couldn't win anyway, so why carry more"? I refuted that, explaining why one man winning over three or four is indeed possible. Instead of carping about the size of my ego, it would be more profitable to draw the appropriate conclusion - a 5-shot snub is a marginal weapon at best, and it can leave one severely undergunned given modern realities.

Sheesh.

[DonGlock26]

A snubby is a good summer pocket gun, when you can't carry a Glock, but I would rather be armed with a G-23/26. I'm beginning to prefer pocket carry(I use my G-26 in parka weather). You can have your hand on your weapon as you enter higher risk areas such as parking lot or stop 'n' robs. I think of parking lots as the watering holes of urban America.

[Shagrat]

Ask those same people you know if 5 rounds in a hard-to-shoot package are enough in a multiple-attacker scenario, no matter WHAT their level of training or instinct. The factors you cite are exactly why a better weapon is called for. You are missing the point. If the tool isn't up to the job, all else is meaningless.

To clarify - I said a snub isn't enough. Some snubby defender said basically "well, if it's more than two guys, you couldn't win anyway, so why carry more"? I refuted that, explaining why one man winning over three or four is indeed possible. Instead of carping about the size of my ego, it would be more profitable to draw the appropriate conclusion - a 5-shot snub is a marginal weapon at best, and it can leave one severely undergunned given modern realities.

Sheesh.

Not missing the point, I don't think. The tool I carry daily is up to the job I'm most likely to encounter. It's unlikely that I'll be called on to take on a swarm of Al-Qadea goblins at Publix or Home Depot.

If in the extremely unlikely situation that such an encounter happened, I'd most likely not do anything that would endanger other lives. Trained or not, engaging multiple targets in combat situations is best left to the professionals. Police Constable Trevor Locke used good judgment in such a situation at the Iranian Embassy, in London.

I apologise for bruising your ego. I was merely trying, in my clumsy way, to caution you in not overestimating your abilities. Terminating say four armed persons, is indeed possible, but not probable. If the four persons are switched on and armed, you will probable not survive the encounter. Such encounters are the stuff of legend; four Provo IRA players ambush a DET operative in N.Ireland. Instead of his MP5-K, the operative could only use his Hi-Power. His superb training, his quick reactions and appraisal of prioritising his targets made him the victor. Provo's zero, security forces four.

Back to the OP. My lifestyle today and where I live does not warrant more horesepower/firepower than my trusty .44. If that changes, then I will go back to another choice. Sorry again.

[rd4man]

I do not believe the question asks, "Are you undergunned carrying the Snubbie?" Aren't we all potentially undergunned?

I believe the question asks, "Do You *Feel* "undergunned" carrying the Snubbie?"

Therefore, the answer, "I do not *feel* undergunned carrying the snubbie" is indisputable. Unless, of course, you can measure an individual's feelings.

I *feel* no less undergunned with my snubbie than with any handgun I carry for self defense purposes.

Snub sales? Must be because they suck?

By the way, this is a snubbie forum. If you are opposed to the snubbie, go somewhere else and play with your bucket of bullets.

[the perfesser]

At times this has been a tiring thread. One important aspect is the capability of the "end user." As an overweight man approaching 60 who fired his first firearm only five years ago, I have come to the conclusion that the most I am capable of carrying regularly is a Kahr PM9 or a J-frame snubbie in my front pocket. Losing 100 lbs. or finding the fountain of youth might change things, but I am not holding my breath.... Since I will never be an "operator," I can imagine being outgunned - and "feeling" outgunned - in lots of crime scenarios. So what? Other leaner, fitter, (probably) younger folks realistically have the option of regularly concealed-carrying a larger capacity semi-auto in 9mm, .40S&W, .45GAP, .357SIG, or .45ACP for IWB, OWB, shoulder-carry holsters, that is, more realistically than I do.

So I practice as much as I can with all sorts of semi-auto pistols of various sizes, and shotguns, and semi-auto rifles,.....and with my snubbie. If I am attacked in my house I will not feel outgunned. Anywhere else, the best I can manage is my snubbie in a pocket.

[Chup]

Gunboat, I still like my Snubs but, I never carry just one. Usually I carry Two or Three Snubs. After thinking about what you said I went out and bought a Glock 26. Now if I feel like carrying only one gun I take the Glock. This doesn't happen very often so I keep it in my truck in case I run into a major road hazard. I have Two mags that came with it and and picked up Three more for G17. It's a cute little thing kind of like a Snub nosed Step Child. Now when I practice in the woods shooting at multipall targets, it gets interesting.

[deputy tom]

Thirty some years ago a close friend told me of a situation in a parking garage elevator.He was accosted by two unsavory individuals while pocket carrying a model 49 in his army style jacket.He won in this situation and made a believer out of me.I've never been without a 49,649,640,or 642 from that point on.Do I feel undergunned with a snub nosed revolver.No I don't.YMMV.tom.

[Gunboat1]

Gunboat, I still like my Snubs but, I never carry just one. Usually I carry Two or Three Snubs. After thinking about what you said I went out and bought a Glock 26. Now if I feel like carrying only one gun I take the Glock. This doesn't happen very often so I keep it in my truck in case I run into a major road hazard. I have Two mags that came with it and and picked up Three more for G17. It's a cute little thing kind of like a Snub nosed Step Child. Now when I practice in the woods shooting at multipall targets, it gets interesting.

Glad to hear you found something valuable to consider in the discussion. The G-26 is a GREAT gun, and is a terrific compromise when you want to carry a small weapon that still packs a potent punch and offers good capacity. It is startlingly accurate and much easier to hit quickly and well with than most revolvers. A G-26 and a spare hi-cap mag is a better choice than multiple snubbies, IMHO. I think you made a super choice.

[isp2605]

Oct 2, 1996. I was commanding our investigations. One of my agents found out one of our fugitives was holed up in a local hotel. He was reportedly heavily armed and had made comments he wouldn't be taken alive. I was off duty at the time heading into town to meet my wife for dinner when I got the call. I had stuck my 649 in my pants and I had 2 speed loaders in the car when I left home. 15 rds total. I rolled our SWAT team and we set up to make entry. I was posted next to the hotel door and the team made entry. When the guy with the ram popped the door the subject opened up on us with a TEC-9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other, firing both as fast as he could work the triggers. Sounded like full auto. In just a second or 2 he fired 11 rds at us before the door swung back closed. Seconds later he put a .380 thru his head.
I can tell you that when those 11 rds were coming at us that 649 seemed like the smallest gun in the world. I was wishing for my 870 or an AR, anything bigger than a 5 shot .38.
11 months later we had a mentally ill woman barricaded in her house who fired at us 4 times with a 12 ga loaded with Federal sabot slugs. At that time I had my 870 and that 870 seemed pretty small as her slug tore thru a wall next to us.
That's just 2 of the times I was under fire while a LEO and shows the extreme I had on me at the time, once a .38 snub and the next a 12 ga shotgun. Neither seemed big enough nor held enough rds.

[Chup]

I would need a very big and thick wall.