Do You Feel "Undergunned" carrying the Snubbie? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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badge4436
01-25-2008, 23:14
I have heard people say the snubbie is very convenient to carry but they felt undergunned while relying on it alone. When you consider your lifestyle-- where you go in your personal and business affairs, is this really an issue?

I make a point of staying out of situations and places I know have a credible and probable likelihood of a confrontation with criminals. Just about all of us have an area in town you want to stay out of. Having carried a gun both in patrol and as a detective for 30 years I don't feel undergunned with the J-Frame. I would have had to be deaf and blind not to get a "street sense" in all that time. I wasn't sitting behind a desk. The snubbie suits me just fine now that I am retired. I practice often with it and am fast and accurate with it. Fast in shooting and in reloading. Nothing unique there, just a matter of practice.

How many of you feel comfortable with just the snubbie when you go out and how many of you feel undergunned?

G33
01-26-2008, 01:37
Feel fine with snub.
:supergrin:

mitchshrader
01-26-2008, 01:50
uhm. yes. i cheat. pachmayer boot grips and a 3" barrel and heavy loads, +P 158s.

i'd rather have a 4" pencil barrel round butt model 10 with the same loads, and will when i find it. :)

RemSp10
01-26-2008, 02:03
undergunned heck no.:supergrin:
my snubby works great for me.
but still like to carry my colt .45 and 19 at times.

Goldendog Redux
01-26-2008, 02:06
I never feel undergunned with my 642. Granted I usually have a 1911 with me as well.:supergrin:

Really though, just tooling around town I do not feel undergunned with my Smiff, I can shoot it well and I figure five rounds of .38+P stuck in a bad guy should go a long way in stopping th bad guy from doing what he is doing.

MF

ok47s
01-26-2008, 02:13
I have heard people say the snubbie is very convenient to carry but they felt undergunned while relying on it alone. When you consider your lifestyle-- where you go in your personal and business affairs, is this really an issue?

I make a point of staying out of situations and places I know have a credible and probable likelihood of a confrontation with criminals. Just about all of us have an area in town you want to stay out of. Having carried a gun both in patrol and as a detective for 30 years I don't feel undergunned with the J-Frame. I would have had to be deaf and blind not to get a "street sense" in all that time. I wasn't sitting behind a desk. The snubbie suits me just fine now that I am retired. I practice often with it and am fast and accurate with it. Fast in shooting and in reloading. Nothing unique there, just a matter of practice.

How many of you feel comfortable with just the snubbie when you go out and how many of you feel undergunned?

My comfort zone with the snub as a primary weapon for ccw continues to decrease as the number of armed attacks involving multiple criminals increase.My snub now serves as a pocket carry back-up.

Gunboat1
01-26-2008, 06:32
Yes. A snub is really not enough, because 5 rounds is all you are likely to be able to use. Ever try to reload a snub under extreme stress? It ain't likely to happen.

Mine is used only when I can't carry a Glock that is more effective (and ANY Glock is). Whenever those occasions occur, I do feel undergunned.

Criminals run in packs these days. Misses happen. And one round rarely solves the problem with a determined bad guy. Somewhere in that arithmetic, you drop the hammer on an empty chamber, and that ain't a good thing.

h2o-5o
01-26-2008, 07:34
IMO, a realistic analysis of a SD situation leaves me comfortable with a J-frame. To use deadly force against someone, you must be able to articulate why you felt your life was in immediate danger. Quite frankly, if three or more assailants are using weapons against me, I really don't think I could draw a $2000 custom 1911 from concealment and stop them, at least not before at least one would be able to pull the trigger.

On the other hand, if proper tactics and cover are utilized, in all likelihood the rest will turn tail and run, after I fire the first shot into one of them.

I am firmly convinced that a large percentage of folks who tout the "latest and greatest" autoloader, are envisioning themselves being Todd Jarrett or Rob Leatham at an IPSC event.

Gunboat1
01-26-2008, 07:46
Many, many average men have won fights against superior numbers - if their weapon was capable of it. You can't use capability you aren't carrying. The fight in the dog is more important than the dog in the fight - but if your weapon runs dry, you are pretty much done.

"I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

Glockanatorrrrr
01-26-2008, 07:52
Let me shoot you with it. Tell me what you think. :tongueout: I have heard this before but for me it's a carry gun while at work and a BUG when off. I carry a speed loader and a speed strip so 15 shots. I have a 340pd so 5 of .38+p or .357 I feel fine with this gun.

To each there own though. I used to pocket carry a P3at and felt undergunned so I swithed to the 340pd.

MCPreacher
01-26-2008, 09:41
The fight in the dog is more important than the dog in the fight

While a very amusing saying, it doesn't really fit the situation.

When pitting a rottweiler against a chihuahua, the willingness to fight doesn't do the chihuahua a lot of good.... :tongueout:

Berto
01-26-2008, 10:18
I'd imagine any gun won't feel like enough when a gunfight happens.
As it's been, I didn't need to shoot and the snubby sufficied.
The idea that 3-4 guys are going to stand around stoically while you empty your gun into one of them is also a bit of a sretch, be it a snubby or Mac 10.
I carry what I can, usually it's a five shooter.

stmcelroy
01-26-2008, 12:47
The majority of the time I feel well armed with my little 340PD, for the times I don't I still have my Glock 19.

G27Chief
01-26-2008, 15:09
In as much as I regulate mine to the defense of myself and others, and not for use as a SWAT entry gun I feel well armed. I have to admit it is rarely the only gun I have on, however when it is I feel well armed for the situations I have been in. I have to generalize, becuase I carry one of the many j frame .38's I own.

DeadMansLife
01-26-2008, 16:14
Yes, I do feel under gunned with my SP101. I only carry a snub if I cannot carry something bigger. Also. part of my plan is to use the snub to get so my G31 of Mossy either in the car or house.

rob700
01-26-2008, 17:52
Currently torn between a Glock 23 and a S+W airweights to compliment my Glock 27. Can't come to grips with 5 shots vs multiple mags.

The snub would be ideal as a day to day CCW.

At night the G27 and a S+W pocket rocket would seem ideal for some of my nightime photography excursions which attract the enevitable homeless vampire or werewolf. They worry me less than the organized thugs.

I figure a little shock and awe to give me enough time to draw the Glock.

My Taurus 85 is totally unreliable... so thus my dilemma.

G27Chief
01-26-2008, 18:26
OK class tell me at what distance and how many rounds are fired on average in a defensive gunfight?

RemSp10
01-26-2008, 18:40
IMO, a realistic analysis of a SD situation leaves me comfortable with a J-frame. To use deadly force against someone, you must be able to articulate why you felt your life was in immediate danger. Quite frankly, if three or more assailants are using weapons against me, I really don't think I could draw a $2000 custom 1911 from concealment and stop them, at least not before at least one would be able to pull the trigger.

On the other hand, if proper tactics and cover are utilized, in all likelihood the rest will turn tail and run, after I fire the first shot into one of them.

I am firmly convinced that a large percentage of folks who tout the "latest and greatest" autoloader, are envisioning themselves being Todd Jarrett or Rob Leatham at an IPSC event.

I must say that this post better describes any of them so far.
And yes most of the other posts have some valid points but this one seems to me the most logical. Most "gun fights" wont last past a few rounds or so i don't think. (IMHO only )
One poster mentioned useing their .38 until they can get to their auto that is in the car or house,by that time it is either too late or the BG is gone.
just my nickels worth for what its worth.:supergrin:

Gunboat1
01-26-2008, 18:52
While a very amusing saying, it doesn't really fit the situation.

When pitting a rottweiler against a chihuahua, the willingness to fight doesn't do the chihuahua a lot of good.... :tongueout:

My point exactly. The will to fight is the most important variable - but even with it, if your equipment isn't sufficient to the task, you will come up short. A 5-shot snub might be enough for an "average" gunfight. But what if your assailant(s) are above average criminals?

5 ain't enough.

I say again: "I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

RemSp10
01-26-2008, 19:01
My point exactly. The will to fight is the most important variable - but even with it, if your equipment isn't sufficient to the task, you will come up short. A 5-shot snub might be enough for an "average" gunfight. But what if your assailant(s) are above average criminals?
5 ain't enough.

I say again: "I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

Average , Above Average. ???????????????.

Any body out there ever been in a "gun fight" with the BG'S. (Maybe a new thread on this question and share your experiance with us. Not looking for any "what if" "or " stuff .just what took place how long it lasted and such.)

Dandapani
01-26-2008, 19:03
OK class tell me at what distance and how many rounds are fired on average in a defensive gunfight?

3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

badge4436
01-26-2008, 20:23
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

That's what FBI studies in the past have said after studying a few years worth of police gunfights.

However since the event of the wonder-nine in police work shots fired must have gone up on the part of the police. I know of several recent events where the young coppers are busting ten or more caps in an event where we had to settle it in six back in "the day." (I think G27Chief might back me up on this.) I made the transition to the semi-auto (Beretta 92F) in my career and never felt that comfortable with it compared to the revolver.

G27Chief
01-26-2008, 21:12
That's what FBI studies in the past have said after studying a few years worth of police gunfights.

However since the event of the wonder-nine in police work shots fired must have gone up on the part of the police. I know of several recent events where the young coppers are busting ten or more caps in an event where we had to settle it in six back in "the day." (I think G27Chief might back me up on this.) I made the transition to the semi-auto (Beretta 92F) in my career and never felt that comfortable with it compared to the revolver.

We were trained in a different way. Marksmanship, with an emphasis on speed. The wonder nine, "hollywoodized" gun fight thinking with the spray and pray technique. Some, well hell probally more then we wish to know pick up the weapon once a year on the range. I knew of some before the passage og a POST rule that had not received firearms training since the academy. I go with the shot placement and stopping the threat technique. Get on target quickly, and stay there until the threat is gone.

Giving up my model 686 for the 5903, I would still fire the same practice strings as before 2 then 1. Now a G27, 23 or 22 and I feel fine in the ability to perform my duty.

I will reply REM SP10, One BG 2 rounds of 38+p+ at 23.5' hits in the upper left quadrant of the chest just right of center. BG stopped, still doing time in his wheelchair, paralyzed from the nipples down. That was 21 years ago, dark of night, no weapon mounted flashlight, night sites, 15 round magazines, and a AR 15 was somthing they had down at the National Guard Armory. We made it through, but now the idea of no patrol carbine, or surefires, is almost unimaginable.

Gunboat1
01-27-2008, 05:22
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

This is exactly the "average" gunfight I was talking about, that is frequently quoted. It is no longer enough for my comfort level.

Read the news once in a while.

whistler52
01-27-2008, 14:33
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

This statistic means that a significant percentage of gunfights require MORE than 3 rounds.

Never been in a gunfight, but I imagine there are several things to worry about. Would be nice not to have to worry about running out of ammo.

RemSp10
01-27-2008, 15:17
[Quote]I will reply REM SP10, One BG 2 rounds of 38+p+ at 23.5' hits in the upper left quadrant of the chest just right of center. BG stopped, still doing time in his wheelchair, paralyzed from the nipples down. That was 21 years ago, dark of night, no weapon mounted flashlight, night sites, 15 round magazines, and a AR 15 was somthing they had down at the National Guard Armory. We made it through, but now the idea of no patrol carbine, or surefires, is almost unimaginable.[Quote]
*******************************************************
Thanks Chief, Glad the ole .38 kept you safe,these are the kind of stories that we can relate to ,some times the caliber, shot placement, shooting in to gel info means nothing, it is all good info but some times hard to understand.
When you put it into just plain english thats when what i understand. the cold hard facts.
Ya in 21 years a lot has happended in the gun and LEO field.
Stay Safe out there.

g88
01-29-2008, 09:54
In my snubs I use the Federal #357B - the 125gr full-power .357 mag. In the 340PD (1-7/8" barrel) I get 1170 fps. I was told that this would be about an 82% stopper. From the 640-3 stainless (2-1/8" barrel) I get about 1245 fps, and I'm told this would be about a 91% stopper. Both of these estimates for this round in these snubs came from people familiar with the Marshall and Sanow methods. But I've never seen test bullets for the Fed 125gr round from these snubs. Note that the estimated 91% figure for the 640-3 is equal to the 115gr +P+ from a 4-inch auto in the Marshall book.
-----------------------------------------------
One of the most valuable skills a person can have
is the ability to shoot a J-frame well.

Rex G
01-29-2008, 13:58
Some thoughts: I recently took a robbery report in which five assailants closed in from two directions to rob a guy; when he fled the first two, a shotgun blast was fired at him, and he then ran into the other three, at leeast one of whom opened up on him with autoloader pistol fire. This was a "good" part of town, well-lit, and the intended victim a teenage grocery store stock boy walking home, listening to his Ipod. He dodged and ran, going over fences into the next block. There were numerous witnesses, who viewed part of this scenario while at a convenience store, where I frequently stop.

In the next block, not long afterward, I took a robbery report from a couple, who were approached by two pistol-wielding bad guys, who robbed them at gunpoint. Remember, I said well-lit, "good" part of town. I used to live in this neighborhood, and I still eat at restaurants in the immediate area. I still shop at the grocery store where the stock boy works. I walked the dog past the location of these roberies many times. Does this mean I need a wonder nine? No, I don't even own one.

Even before these incidents, my normal minimum, and my 24/7 always/everywhere weapon was a Ruger SP101, almost always accompanied by another firearm, from a second SP101 on up, plus reloads. I have practiced reloads, and I mean REALLY practiced. Yes, I am comfortable with snubbies, though it's nice if one is a bit bigger, perhaps my 4" Ruger Speed Six, that can share ammo with the snubby. The mind is the weapon, and alertness/awareness allows the mind to win battles. There will always be scenarios where any level of armament will fall short. The biggest limitation of snubbies, as I see it, is the short sight radius, and the smaller profile of the sights, limiting one's effective range. So, there is nothing wrong with a snubby as a close-range tool, if its ammo capacity and shootability are kept in mind.

machinisttx
01-29-2008, 21:53
No, not in the least. Marksmanship trumps round count any day of the week.

sphillips45
01-29-2008, 21:58
Never cause most of the time my 642 is a backup to this..

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/glockshooter34/6861.jpg

cowboywannabe
01-30-2008, 12:24
when im limited in waredrobe(sp?) i will drop two J frames in the front pockets and carry on....

Berto
02-02-2008, 08:45
Some thoughts: I recently took a robbery report in which five assailants closed in from two directions to rob a guy; when he fled the first two, a shotgun blast was fired at him, and he then ran into the other three, at leeast one of whom opened up on him with autoloader pistol fire. This was a "good" part of town, well-lit, and the intended victim a teenage grocery store stock boy walking home, listening to his Ipod. He dodged and ran, going over fences into the next block. There were numerous witnesses, who viewed part of this scenario while at a convenience store, where I frequently stop.

In the next block, not long afterward, I took a robbery report from a couple, who were approached by two pistol-wielding bad guys, who robbed them at gunpoint. Remember, I said well-lit, "good" part of town. I used to live in this neighborhood, and I still eat at restaurants in the immediate area. I still shop at the grocery store where the stock boy works. I walked the dog past the location of these roberies many times. Does this mean I need a wonder nine? No, I don't even own one.

Even before these incidents, my normal minimum, and my 24/7 always/everywhere weapon was a Ruger SP101, almost always accompanied by another firearm, from a second SP101 on up, plus reloads. I have practiced reloads, and I mean REALLY practiced. Yes, I am comfortable with snubbies, though it's nice if one is a bit bigger, perhaps my 4" Ruger Speed Six, that can share ammo with the snubby. The mind is the weapon, and alertness/awareness allows the mind to win battles. There will always be scenarios where any level of armament will fall short. The biggest limitation of snubbies, as I see it, is the short sight radius, and the smaller profile of the sights, limiting one's effective range. So, there is nothing wrong with a snubby as a close-range tool, if its ammo capacity and shootability are kept in mind.


I agree, there will always be scenarios that underscore firepower.
Being alert is far the more important and a prepared mindset trumps any difference between choice of handguns, IMO.
I don't see the snubby as being the best handgun for everything by any stretch, but its unique qualities of reliability, power and pocketability allow a level of threat response that balance well for the typical situations folks like me benefit from.
Hand in pocket= hand on gun.

cowboywannabe
02-02-2008, 09:23
so true....well rehersed tactics will trump the coolest gun.

in the incident mentioned above....if a single bad guy from any of the groups took a .38spl in the gut, it would probably have stopped the attack, as no one, i mean no one wants to be shot, and a targeted victim fighting back is a criminal's worst nightmare because they can deliver far more justice than any of our inept court systems.

RemSp10
02-02-2008, 21:07
Take out the most aggressive one first ,the others will most likely see that and say "I'am out of here".
Saw that on tv once and makes pretty good since to me>:wavey:

Rustydude
02-03-2008, 12:17
I actualy feel overgunned carrying my 340 SC. 5 rounds are better than none that one day your in a rush and leave your "Big" gun home, or in the glove box. I doubt any of the thugs will be wearing hearing protection, The muzzle blast will take out the first half dozen or so, and after 5 shots, I'll beat the snot out of those standing with my 12oz scandium face smasher!:cool:

Aquanewt
02-05-2008, 19:00
I carried a S&W M-36 3inch with 158 gr lswhp +P's (issue round) when I was a Detective before we went to Glocks. I always carried 2 speed loaders and never felt under armed. That extra inch of barrel added so much to the accuracy of that gun. Still in the vault.

prairieviper
02-10-2008, 16:38
I'm comfortable with my J frame 38 Special and a speedloader with five extras for off-duty carry. I believe that the realistic potential of winning the power ball lottery is probably better than having to use your piece to defend yourself against an attacker(s), let alone running dry and having to reload. I choose to live my life by planning for probabilities, not possibilities. There is a lot more to being prepared than just carrying a gun.

Each persons circumstances, abilities and comfort levels are different and each person has to decide what is right for them.

leidenheimer
02-10-2008, 19:08
I'm just getting back into owning a snubbie and this is my thought. The snub will be a great throw into the pocket gun for me when hitting the local stores or going someplace "rather safe". I feel in these places I will be properly equipped. I know noone can predict when or where a violent offense will occur but if I were to go into a "not so safe place of known origin" (East Side of Cleveland for example) I would have a snub for a BUG and probably carry my G21 with pleanty of extra mags.

Time, place and situation will dictate when I carry the snub or something with more punch and capacity.

badge4436
02-10-2008, 21:01
I'm comfortable with my J frame 38 Special and a speedloader with five extras for off-duty carry. I believe that the realistic potential of winning the power ball lottery is probably better than having to use your piece to defend yourself against an attacker(s), let alone running dry and having to reload. I choose to live my life by planning for probabilities, not possibilities. There is a lot more to being prepared than just carrying a gun.

Each persons circumstances, abilities and comfort levels are different and each person has to decide what is right for them.

Amen brother. Well said.

Gunboat1
02-11-2008, 23:32
Amen brother. Well said.

"Here lies McGruff
Thought five was enough
If he'd had eleven
He wouldn't be in heaven."

At least as good an epitaph as " I probably won't need more firepower, statistically".


Glock 26 or snub against a group of three or more, assuming that you miss with a round or two under stress (as is extremely likely, especially in light of the tiny sights, heavy trigger and short barrel of a snub)?

Chup
02-12-2008, 12:53
I never felt underguned. I carry a 5 shot 357 Snub IWB and a 5 shot 38+p Snub in my back pocket. I also carry reloads for both.:2gun:

SAWBONES
02-18-2008, 13:41
"Do You Feel "Undergunned" carrying the Snubbie?"

No.
Or at least not until I recognize that I'm being attacked by more than five ex-con big behemoth gangsters.:)

Goldstar225
02-23-2008, 09:00
I believe that my 642 will probably handle most, if not all, situations I'm likely to encounter when I'm off duty. That being said, I feel "undergunned" if I have anything less than an 870 or AR-15 in my hands.

bamarammin87
02-23-2008, 09:57
I feel fine most of the time with my 638 with +p hollowpoints in it. I do wish there was a way to conceal my .45 tho.

Walter45Auto
02-25-2008, 14:24
Nope! I can shoot it accurately enough, and my Taurus 617 holds 7 rounds of .357 Magnum. I feel just fine using it as my EDC.

AJSully421
03-12-2008, 19:52
3 rounds, 3 YARDS, 3 seconds... and that was before auto pistols became the norm... now it might be more like 30 rounds, 3 yards, 3 seconds?

Do I feel under gunned? YES, but then again, i feel under gunned with a 20 round mag in my scoped AR-15 because the 30's are too tall to shoot out of the blind, or when bird hunting with just 3 rounds instead of 5...so take that for what it is worth.

Someone talked about probabilities... If i were playing the numbers game as it really is, all I would ever carry is a snubbie, and have the 870 at home because there is a 1 in ten million chance that someone will try to kill me. But, knowing that stuff happens, I carry a G30 with 230+p HST, and a S&W 642 with Rem. .38 +P 158 LSWC, and have a RRA middy A2 in the truck with 2 30 round mags cinched together loaded with 75grn TAP, and I keep every single gun that i own loaded and ready to go (even a #7 shot in the .410)

Really, a snubbie is great for family gatherings, church, walking the dog and other "condition yellow" activities.

DonB
03-12-2008, 20:56
Would any of you trade your snub for the new 380 LCP by Ruger?

AJSully421
03-12-2008, 21:07
Would any of you trade your snub for the new 380 LCP by Ruger?


Negative

sphillips45
03-12-2008, 21:15
Would any of you trade your snub for the new 380 LCP by Ruger?


No!!!!

Quarterbore
03-12-2008, 21:21
I have a really CHEAP Tarus M85, well actually it is my wife's gun and it shoots every bit as accuratley as my Glocks and perhaps even better even with the short barrel and primative sights. I prefer to have more gun on me but there are times when I carry the little revolver instead of something bigger and I have never woried about not having enough gun on me.

If I am ever going into a situation where I feal I need more gun, I will have either the Glock 21 on me and the hell with my normal G19 CCW!

glockess56
03-12-2008, 22:10
Would I trade my snubby for Ruger LCP? No, but I would like to have the LCP to add to my gun collection.

Dobber
03-12-2008, 22:19
I carry a snub when I'm running down the street or walking the dog but I feel better when I'm carring my G26. I hope I never need it but if I do I would much rather have 13 rds of +p 9mm over 5 rds of +p 38. That said I will always have a j frame.

prairieviper
03-13-2008, 12:49
"Here lies McGruff
Thought five was enough
If he'd had eleven
He wouldn't be in heaven."

At least as good an epitaph as " I probably won't need more firepower, statistically".


Glock 26 or snub against a group of three or more, assuming that you miss with a round or two under stress (as is extremely likely, especially in light of the tiny sights, heavy trigger and short barrel of a snub)?


Clever little poem but doesn't really mean anything. Catchy phrases and quotes abound on the internet, particularly on gun forums. Have you heard the one that goes something like "If you can't get the job done with the first six rounds what makes you think you will fair any better with the next six?" Of course, everyone has heard of Chicken Little and that famous line, "The sky is falling, the sky is faling." I could go on but you get the drift. Threat assessments, comfort zones and a lot of other factors come into play regarding what one should carry to protect themselves. What is right for you may be completely wrong for someone else.

sourdough44
03-14-2008, 09:55
We have been watching to many movies with the 50 round shootouts.

Chup
03-14-2008, 19:21
If you get attacked by three guys. Do you really think you can take out three be for one of them will take you out? Maybe if you had an A.K. Full Auto. If a group came after me I will be getting behind cover and then Two Revolvers and 20rnds. of Reloads should do it.

Gunboat1
03-15-2008, 08:43
If you get attacked by three guys. Do you really think you can take out three be for one of them will take you out? Maybe if you had an A.K. Full Auto. If a group came after me I will be getting behind cover and then Two Revolvers and 20rnds. of Reloads should do it.

As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I will be carrying a gun - not all of them may be. I have been extensively trained and am an experienced firearms/close combat instructor - I doubt they are. I practice a lot - not all of them do, most probably. I will seize the initiative - denying it to them. I will seek and use cover - unless they have been well-trained (an unlikely probability), they may very well not.

But none of that will matter if I run out of ammo after 5 rounds. "If you can't get the job done with the first six, what makes you think you will "fair" (sic) any better with the next 6?" It was a 7-10 round job, that's what.

Is carrying two wheelguns really better than carrying one good hi-cap semiauto? And if you think you will be reloading 20 rounds into a snub or two, you are the one who is dreaming. Good luck with that.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean that anyone else can't. Train a little - you will be surprised to learn what can be done - with the proper tools. :upeyes:

Dean
03-15-2008, 08:59
A friend wrote:
As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I will be carrying a gun - not all of them may be. I have been extensively trained and am an experienced firearms/close combat instructor - I doubt they are. I practice a lot - not all of them do, most probably. I will seize the initiative - denying it to them. I will seek and use cover - unless they have been well-trained (an unlikely probability), they may very well not.

+1
With a large bore semiautomatic pistol with a Crimson Trace laser, I'm well armed. I can take on violent criminals without hesitation with that type of weapon. A Glock 23. A Sig P226, or a Beretta 92. Duty pistols are "better" to fight with than BUGS.

With a snub I'm less well armed. It's a BUG or hideout gun. Crimson Trace lasergrips are essential on the snub for me, just as they are on the Walther PPK/S.
I can't see the stock sights on those weapons if I'm in a hurry/moving. I can barely see the front sight of those weapons standing still.

just for fun
03-15-2008, 22:44
Without starting the old Ford VS chevy wars. I see no reason to carry more firearm than a snubbie. Still got a kimber pro carry and after lugging that around all day it really became a pain in the hip! Glocks do not even enter the picture. you want and carry one? fine! I don't and won't. nuf said about that. They do make fun range guns!(if that counts) Out of all my auto's the only one I might consider is a Smith model 39-2!! Built in 1975. Got a thing for that Smith, but she too is on the bulky side.So after yrs of carrying this or that I come full circle and back to my model 36 J frame. First gun I bought back in 68! Saved for months to come up with the layway money! Oh yea $68 new!!!

KYMike
03-16-2008, 08:58
As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I will be carrying a gun - not all of them may be. I have been extensively trained and am an experienced firearms/close combat instructor - I doubt they are. I practice a lot - not all of them do, most probably. I will seize the initiative - denying it to them. I will seek and use cover - unless they have been well-trained (an unlikely probability), they may very well not.

This isn't personal, just an observation, but I would expect more from a tactical instructor. Underestimating your opponent is the surest way to lose a battle...and fast.

The arrogance shown in your post indicates you're living in a dream world. In a perfect world, maybe only some of your opponents will be armed, maybe you'll be better trained, maybe you'll have the first shot, and maybe you'll find cover. Then again, in a perfect world, you wouldn't be attacked in the first place. Statistically, armed robbers, carjackers, rapists, and kidnappers are more likely to have experience robbing, carjacking, raping, and kidnapping than a victim is to have experience defending themselves against such attacks, and experience is the best training.

So you need to plan on all of them being armed (better than you are), they'll have better skills, they'll get the drop on you, and they'll have cover and you won't. Plan for that, and you'll be all the more prepared when you do have cover and you do see them coming, but never assume, never get complacent, never think you're better than your opponent in any aspect. Respect wins battles, arrogance loses lives.

Short answer to the OP, yes, I feel undergunned with the snub, as I feel undergunned with ANY handgun. Do I carry the snub anyway...sure, lots of times. Only you can prevent forest fires, and only you can decide how much is enough to protect your family.

Gunboat1
03-16-2008, 14:29
This isn't personal, just an observation, but I would expect more from a tactical instructor. Underestimating your opponent is the surest way to lose a battle...and fast.

The arrogance shown in your post indicates you're living in a dream world. In a perfect world, maybe only some of your opponents will be armed, maybe you'll be better trained, maybe you'll have the first shot, and maybe you'll find cover. Then again, in a perfect world, you wouldn't be attacked in the first place. Statistically, armed robbers, carjackers, rapists, and kidnappers are more likely to have experience robbing, carjacking, raping, and kidnapping than a victim is to have experience defending themselves against such attacks, and experience is the best training.

So you need to plan on all of them being armed (better than you are), they'll have better skills, they'll get the drop on you, and they'll have cover and you won't. Plan for that, and you'll be all the more prepared when you do have cover and you do see them coming, but never assume, never get complacent, never think you're better than your opponent in any aspect. Respect wins battles, arrogance loses lives.

Short answer to the OP, yes, I feel undergunned with the snub, as I feel undergunned with ANY handgun. Do I carry the snub anyway...sure, lots of times. Only you can prevent forest fires, and only you can decide how much is enough to protect your family.

You're entitled to your opinion. How one trains and prepares for a fight we hope will never come does not equal a dispassionate analysis of the overwhelming majority of criminals and criminal assaults. Show me an example of where several thugs have trained together, armed themselves in overwhelming firepower and complementary systems, and then have performed during a fight like a tactical team would. It simply doesn't happen much. North Hollywood is about the only example I can think of, and that was pretty much unique. And they weren't mugging an individual - they were robbing a bank. Newhall, Miami, hell even Columbine don't apply. And most criminals' experience has been with UNARMED, UNTRAINED victims. That doesn't prepare them to win against a warrior.

The question was, is it reasonable to believe that one man can overcome three. My response is, unequivocally, yes, as long as their training, equipment and spirit are up to the task. That ain't arrogance - it's simple fact. History is replete with examples of when it has happened. So much for your "dream world" assertion.

And yes, I agree - one is undergunned carrying only a snub. That was the point.

Reb 56
03-16-2008, 16:31
Depending on the situation there are times & places i would rather have Glock 26 with 11 rounds of gold Dot 124+p than 5 shots. Though I like my 642. In Malls,large open areas such as Parks and wooded areas I"ll carry G26.

If going to local Grocery,Pharmcy or walking neighborhood in daylight 642 does it. I simply shoot glock better.

KYMike
03-16-2008, 17:29
And yes, I agree - one is undergunned carrying only a snub. That was the point.

My main contention was that you can never assume to have the advantage. That can lead to complacency, that's all.

If you're telling people a 10, 15, or 20 round auto will NOT leave them undergunned, I still disagree. ANY handgun is a compromise. In the unfortunate event I have to fire shots to defend myself or my family, I'd much rather have an AR/AK/shotgun than any handgun. Even then, I might still wish for more! Of course, keeping an AR in your waistband isn't practical. But you'll still be undergunned without one.

It's just a fact of life that when shots are fired, you'll ALWAYS be undergunned for comfort. The question, is how much compromise can you live with, as they're ALL a compromise. And I CAN live with the snub as a compromise sometimes. Though I'd much rather have it backed up by pepper spray and a Louisville Slugger, and have it backing up a G26, backing up a G19, backing up an AR, etc. Then again, if we knew shots would be fired, we'd probably just stay home. ;)

It's just different strokes, my man, we're all good!! ;)

TecRsq
08-15-2008, 20:03
Competence in your firearm, situational awareness and street smarts are the most important aspects to personal protection and they trump caliber and knockdown statistics every time the defecation hits the rotary oscillator.

Do I know everything......hell no, but I am getting training from reputable sources, practicing with my firearms as often as possible and making the training realistic.

I don't feel under gunned with a 5 shot at all.

fowler
08-16-2008, 20:44
I have faith in in my SW642 and if harm does come there will be dead perps.

Rikki
08-17-2008, 05:14
I think all the responses here have been excellent!

To specifically answer the original question...Sometimes I do.

Badguys in my area are starting to travel in packs and are committing their crimes in gangs...Everything from bank roberies,home invasions,and even muggings on bicycle/jogging trails are being carried out by 3-4 thugs. Some gangs ARE training-(MS13) if you believe the hype.

I'll pitch this out for fodder: Consider using the 5 doser as your 1st line of defense- in a fast access pocket...and have your 17 rounder in deep concealment-say a shoulder rig. In the winter I always carry a pocket gun I can get to in a hurry; and under a sweatshirt I've got a shoulder rig on that's gonna stop most fights.

Gunboat1
08-17-2008, 05:36
You'll never convince most of the snub enthusiasts on this board that they aren't perfectly well-armed with 5 shots out of a tiny wheelgun.

"None is so blind as him who will not see."

mini14jac
08-20-2008, 08:39
I carry a snub, (or a .380 LCP) most of the time and don't feel "undergunned".
As others have said, if a fight started, I'd probably feel undergunned if I had an AK. :upeyes:

I've seen police dashcam videos where an officer emptied his hi-cap auto at contact distance and missed every shot. :wow:
Higher ammo capacity may give you a survival edge, or it may not.
In any of those situations, I bet the officer would have rather had one hit than 15 misses.
As the old saying goes, "You can't miss fast enough to win the fight.".

I practice with all my guns, and I'm probably a better shot than most thugs I may encounter.
Still, there's a better chance I'll need O.C. spray than a gun.
(Still haven't gotten around to carrying it all the time.)

When I only had larger guns, I usually left them at home.
I'd rather have 5 accurate shots in my pocket than 15 shots at home, or in the truck.

Years ago, I had just gotten my CCW permit, and was at the range/gunstore for some practice.
There was a younger guy in the lane next to me with a large auto, and a large new shoulder holster.
I wondered then if he would ever wear that rig for an actual day out.
(Here in East Tennessee, we only get below 40 degrees 2 months out of the year.)
I've got a shoulder holster too, and I think I've worn it once in 15 years.

Carry whatever meets your comfort level, and hope you never have to use it.

Lazlo
08-20-2008, 20:35
This is truly the thread that just won't die, so I guess I'll finally weigh in. Do I feel undergunned? No. Is a snub adequate? I guess that depends on a lot of things. But I also feel as some others do that it's better than nothing at all, meaning that I'm more likely to carry my 442 day in and day out than I am a higher capacity, harder to conceal weapon and end up in a situation where I "should have carried that night" but didn't because it wasn't convenient. I'd rather be armed with five shots of something at all times than 15 shots or no shots at all sometimes.

Shagrat
08-21-2008, 09:13
As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I will be carrying a gun - not all of them may be. I have been extensively trained and am an experienced firearms/close combat instructor - I doubt they are. I practice a lot - not all of them do, most probably. I will seize the initiative - denying it to them. I will seek and use cover - unless they have been well-trained (an unlikely probability), they may very well not.

But none of that will matter if I run out of ammo after 5 rounds. "If you can't get the job done with the first six, what makes you think you will "fair" (sic) any better with the next 6?" It was a 7-10 round job, that's what.

Is carrying two wheelguns really better than carrying one good hi-cap semiauto? And if you think you will be reloading 20 rounds into a snub or two, you are the one who is dreaming. Good luck with that.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean that anyone else can't. Train a little - you will be surprised to learn what can be done - with the proper tools. :upeyes:

There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. "Close Combat Instructor" or not, most of the trained people I know, or have known, will tell you that things never go as you expect them to. If you have real QCB training then good for you. However, those who have practiced with thousands of rounds per week, running room clearance techniques or hostage rescue scenarios, will tell you that even with that training, the difference between a successful op. and an unsuccessful one is instinct. Combat situations are fluid and mostly chaotic.

Regarding snubbies. I have had the privilege of using many firearms in my many years. At this moment, with my lifestyle and where I live, my .44 Special is what I carry most. In the unlikely situation that I'm attacked by six BG's bent on doing me harm, then I may get one or two. Packing a G17 would only serve me better if the the remaining four stood still and compliant. In other words, in situations where multiple aggressors are involved, I'm toast. Where one or two are involved, then I will probably hurt them.

Trust your instincts.

Gunboat1
08-21-2008, 16:33
Ask those same people you know if 5 rounds in a hard-to-shoot package are enough in a multiple-attacker scenario, no matter WHAT their level of training or instinct. The factors you cite are exactly why a better weapon is called for. You are missing the point. If the tool isn't up to the job, all else is meaningless.

To clarify - I said a snub isn't enough. Some snubby defender said basically "well, if it's more than two guys, you couldn't win anyway, so why carry more"? I refuted that, explaining why one man winning over three or four is indeed possible. Instead of carping about the size of my ego, it would be more profitable to draw the appropriate conclusion - a 5-shot snub is a marginal weapon at best, and it can leave one severely undergunned given modern realities.

Sheesh.

DonGlock26
08-23-2008, 20:28
A snubby is a good summer pocket gun, when you can't carry a Glock, but I would rather be armed with a G-23/26. I'm beginning to prefer pocket carry(I use my G-26 in parka weather). You can have your hand on your weapon as you enter higher risk areas such as parking lot or stop 'n' robs. I think of parking lots as the watering holes of urban America.

Shagrat
08-25-2008, 13:23
Ask those same people you know if 5 rounds in a hard-to-shoot package are enough in a multiple-attacker scenario, no matter WHAT their level of training or instinct. The factors you cite are exactly why a better weapon is called for. You are missing the point. If the tool isn't up to the job, all else is meaningless.

To clarify - I said a snub isn't enough. Some snubby defender said basically "well, if it's more than two guys, you couldn't win anyway, so why carry more"? I refuted that, explaining why one man winning over three or four is indeed possible. Instead of carping about the size of my ego, it would be more profitable to draw the appropriate conclusion - a 5-shot snub is a marginal weapon at best, and it can leave one severely undergunned given modern realities.

Sheesh.

Not missing the point, I don't think. The tool I carry daily is up to the job I'm most likely to encounter. It's unlikely that I'll be called on to take on a swarm of Al-Qadea goblins at Publix or Home Depot.

If in the extremely unlikely situation that such an encounter happened, I'd most likely not do anything that would endanger other lives. Trained or not, engaging multiple targets in combat situations is best left to the professionals. Police Constable Trevor Locke used good judgment in such a situation at the Iranian Embassy, in London.

I apologise for bruising your ego. I was merely trying, in my clumsy way, to caution you in not overestimating your abilities. Terminating say four armed persons, is indeed possible, but not probable. If the four persons are switched on and armed, you will probable not survive the encounter. Such encounters are the stuff of legend; four Provo IRA players ambush a DET operative in N.Ireland. Instead of his MP5-K, the operative could only use his Hi-Power. His superb training, his quick reactions and appraisal of prioritising his targets made him the victor. Provo's zero, security forces four.

Back to the OP. My lifestyle today and where I live does not warrant more horesepower/firepower than my trusty .44. If that changes, then I will go back to another choice. Sorry again.

rd4man
08-25-2008, 14:40
I do not believe the question asks, "Are you undergunned carrying the Snubbie?" Aren't we all potentially undergunned?

I believe the question asks, "Do You *Feel* "undergunned" carrying the Snubbie?"

Therefore, the answer, "I do not *feel* undergunned carrying the snubbie" is indisputable. Unless, of course, you can measure an individual's feelings.

I *feel* no less undergunned with my snubbie than with any handgun I carry for self defense purposes.

Snub sales? Must be because they suck?

By the way, this is a snubbie forum. If you are opposed to the snubbie, go somewhere else and play with your bucket of bullets.

the perfesser
08-25-2008, 19:44
At times this has been a tiring thread. One important aspect is the capability of the "end user." As an overweight man approaching 60 who fired his first firearm only five years ago, I have come to the conclusion that the most I am capable of carrying regularly is a Kahr PM9 or a J-frame snubbie in my front pocket. Losing 100 lbs. or finding the fountain of youth might change things, but I am not holding my breath.... Since I will never be an "operator," I can imagine being outgunned - and "feeling" outgunned - in lots of crime scenarios. So what? Other leaner, fitter, (probably) younger folks realistically have the option of regularly concealed-carrying a larger capacity semi-auto in 9mm, .40S&W, .45GAP, .357SIG, or .45ACP for IWB, OWB, shoulder-carry holsters, that is, more realistically than I do.

So I practice as much as I can with all sorts of semi-auto pistols of various sizes, and shotguns, and semi-auto rifles,.....and with my snubbie. If I am attacked in my house I will not feel outgunned. Anywhere else, the best I can manage is my snubbie in a pocket.

Chup
08-26-2008, 13:58
Gunboat, I still like my Snubs but, I never carry just one. Usually I carry Two or Three Snubs. After thinking about what you said I went out and bought a Glock 26. Now if I feel like carrying only one gun I take the Glock. This doesn't happen very often so I keep it in my truck in case I run into a major road hazard. I have Two mags that came with it and and picked up Three more for G17. It's a cute little thing kind of like a Snub nosed Step Child. Now when I practice in the woods shooting at multipall targets, it gets interesting.

deputy tom
08-26-2008, 16:20
Thirty some years ago a close friend told me of a situation in a parking garage elevator.He was accosted by two unsavory individuals while pocket carrying a model 49 in his army style jacket.He won in this situation and made a believer out of me.I've never been without a 49,649,640,or 642 from that point on.Do I feel undergunned with a snub nosed revolver.No I don't.YMMV.tom.

Gunboat1
08-26-2008, 17:23
Gunboat, I still like my Snubs but, I never carry just one. Usually I carry Two or Three Snubs. After thinking about what you said I went out and bought a Glock 26. Now if I feel like carrying only one gun I take the Glock. This doesn't happen very often so I keep it in my truck in case I run into a major road hazard. I have Two mags that came with it and and picked up Three more for G17. It's a cute little thing kind of like a Snub nosed Step Child. Now when I practice in the woods shooting at multipall targets, it gets interesting.

Glad to hear you found something valuable to consider in the discussion. The G-26 is a GREAT gun, and is a terrific compromise when you want to carry a small weapon that still packs a potent punch and offers good capacity. It is startlingly accurate and much easier to hit quickly and well with than most revolvers. A G-26 and a spare hi-cap mag is a better choice than multiple snubbies, IMHO. I think you made a super choice.

isp2605
08-26-2008, 17:36
Oct 2, 1996. I was commanding our investigations. One of my agents found out one of our fugitives was holed up in a local hotel. He was reportedly heavily armed and had made comments he wouldn't be taken alive. I was off duty at the time heading into town to meet my wife for dinner when I got the call. I had stuck my 649 in my pants and I had 2 speed loaders in the car when I left home. 15 rds total. I rolled our SWAT team and we set up to make entry. I was posted next to the hotel door and the team made entry. When the guy with the ram popped the door the subject opened up on us with a TEC-9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other, firing both as fast as he could work the triggers. Sounded like full auto. In just a second or 2 he fired 11 rds at us before the door swung back closed. Seconds later he put a .380 thru his head.
I can tell you that when those 11 rds were coming at us that 649 seemed like the smallest gun in the world. I was wishing for my 870 or an AR, anything bigger than a 5 shot .38.
11 months later we had a mentally ill woman barricaded in her house who fired at us 4 times with a 12 ga loaded with Federal sabot slugs. At that time I had my 870 and that 870 seemed pretty small as her slug tore thru a wall next to us.
That's just 2 of the times I was under fire while a LEO and shows the extreme I had on me at the time, once a .38 snub and the next a 12 ga shotgun. Neither seemed big enough nor held enough rds.

Chup
08-27-2008, 07:49
I would need a very big and thick wall.

Buckeye63
08-30-2008, 20:25
No...I mostly carry a snubby..I have three Semi's a G-19 and a G-36 and a 1911, the rest are wheel guns,the gun I carried tonight was a Rossi 720 in 44 Spec. loaded with 200gr. HPs and I had one speed loader."If you need more than 5 shots, your in the wrong gunfight"

J.P.
08-30-2008, 20:52
As a primary, yes, I feel undergunned with a snub...even my .44special.
As a backup, it'll do just fine.

5-6 shots in 2 seconds done...then what? reload?

No thanks.

1canvas
08-30-2008, 21:16
i don't feel comfortable with a .38 snub and not much better with my .357 j frame either. so i bought a g-23 to fill in some times when my colt .45 is to much and i want something a more than my j frames. that has worked out real good for me.
that said, on my lowest risk travels i carry j frames, anything else its the 23 or the colt.

Hydraulicman
09-09-2008, 11:13
no because I can draw it faster than any of my autos.

Two Guns
09-09-2008, 18:48
No I don't feel under gunned with my J frame.

Chup
09-10-2008, 08:43
I still like my Snubs the best. The norm is a 7 shot 357 and One or Two J frames. I keep the G26 in my Glove Box for Road Hazards or carry it when I only want One Gun.

MrMurphy
09-12-2008, 13:38
I've carried a 649 as a primary, with reloads. Not my favorite but the other option was a G30 and in the situations at the time, could not be effectively hidden.

I more often carried it as a backup to the 30 during winter, in an outer jacket pocket (Hand in pocket, hand on gun philosophy) because i could get to it faster. 5 shots of .38 followed up by 11 rounds of .45 isn't too bad.

The one time it all hit the fan, 4 of them, 3 of us, my other two were hand to hand with 3 of them, #4 looked like he was about to bring "more" into play from inside the car and I stepped out of the vehicle to draw and get a clear shot. Apparently the motion of drawing and my general appearance (young guy in his 20s, flat top haircut) to them = cop and they all vanished before I had to find out if 21 rounds of .45 ACP would have sufficed in a nighttime firefight.

Three of them (in the same car) were later arrested (2 weeks later) for a fatal drive-by and had rap sheets several pages long.

I started carrying 2 spare mags after that, and rarely carried a snub or small auto for quite some time. I'd carry a 642 for backup or if nothing else would do, but a G26 or maybe a Walther PPS and a pair of spare mags would be more likely. I'm a better shot with better sights on a small auto, and the reload is more rounds, and faster.

There are still places where a snub excels, but I'll never carry one as a primary unless nothing else fits.

And of the two other guys......1 had his permit already submitted (been carrying for years now) and the other became a cop.

shark_za
09-13-2008, 09:36
Yes but it should stop any attack long enough to give me a head start when I run like the wind outta there.

I live I win.

fredobbs
10-23-2008, 18:58
i feel good with my laser equipped 340mp

Landric
10-24-2008, 22:58
You're entitled to your opinion. How one trains and prepares for a fight we hope will never come does not equal a dispassionate analysis of the overwhelming majority of criminals and criminal assaults. Show me an example of where several thugs have trained together, armed themselves in overwhelming firepower and complementary systems, and then have performed during a fight like a tactical team would. It simply doesn't happen much. North Hollywood is about the only example I can think of, and that was pretty much unique. And they weren't mugging an individual - they were robbing a bank. Newhall, Miami, hell even Columbine don't apply. And most criminals' experience has been with UNARMED, UNTRAINED victims. That doesn't prepare them to win against a warrior...

OK, not too long ago in the small North Carolina city I work in, a group of thugs hit a rival drug dealer's house. They cut the phone lines before they hit, two hit the front door and two hit the back door at the same time, they were armed with military-style rifles and shotguns. The rival dealer and his pals, no strangers to police take-down tactics, said that they thought they were being raided by the police when they were hit.

Now, in this particular case I don't feel too sorry for the "victims", they brought it on themselves; but if the thugs hit them like that, they could do it to anyone they saw as profitable. It happens, not a lot, but its frequency is increasing.

With regard to the original question, I don't generally carry just a J-frame because I don't feel comfortable with just the J. I'm sure in most situations it would be sufficient, but I'd hate to find myself in one of the few where it wasn't. It really isn't that hard to carry a slightly larger, more effective handgun (which in my case would be in addition to the J-frame, not instead of it). That said, I don't carry the latest and greatest mega-capacity auto off duty. I'm currently qualified with 3 personally owned weapons (in addition to the handgun, rifle, and shotgun the PD issued me). The three are: a S&W 37-2 DAO Airweight (which is my on and off-duty BUG), a H&K P7 9x19mm, and a Glock 36 .45ACP. One will note that the largest capacity of any of the three, when fully loaded, is 9 rounds. Normally, I carry one spare mag for my primary gun and one speed strip for the J-frame. Since I live in my jurisdiction and do most of my shopping and such here, I also usually carry handcuffs and OC off-duty. I'm not planning on taking police action off-duty unless I have no choice, but one never knows when I might run into a co-worker who needs help while I'm off, and I like to be prepared.

g36user
12-03-2008, 17:39
I've enjoyed reading the posts.

I'm now carrying a 2" .45acp revolver. No, I don't "feel" under gunned. My geographic circumstances don't match many of the "worst case" scenarios expressed in previous posts. And...there's just something about a Remington 230gr Golden Saber hollow point that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy :tongueout:

Chuck

alank2
12-03-2008, 18:13
Hi,

There is no way to determine "undergunned" or not as it depends on what situation you are presented with. One nut job that you can use 3 or 4 of your rounds on and still have one round remaining would probably be handled well by a snub. Two bad guys could *probably* be able to be handled if you had the skill. Three or more gets tougher as you will run out of the 5 rounds pretty quick. Heck, I feel like those 5 go way too fast at the range, I sure know it would be an issue in a bad situation. I also agree with the people who say it would be very difficult to reload a j-frame under stress. I always carry a speed strip with me when I only carry my 442, but I am under no dilusion that I will be reloading it quickly, just that I will have the rounds if I have the TIME to reload it.

I love my 442 and it fits so quick in the pocket, it is a dream to carry, but it lacks when being compared to a gun like the G26, G27, G33. I do think snubs are much better than most small mouse gun autos. I admit to carrying my 442 as a primary more than I should, that is risk in having a snub which is that you will get lazy about carrying and just carry it when you know full well that it is not as capable as a true belt gun would be.

Good luck,

Alan

spober
12-09-2008, 17:55
my snubby is more often than not my night stand gun.i feel in a situation were im awakened by a threat in the middle of the night, the simple nature of a small revolver seems like a better alternative than a semi auto .

fowler
12-14-2008, 11:45
If you can,t hit what you aim at a 17 shot auto won,t help you! I feel my snub is good enough for 3 perp,s with 2 rounds left over for coup-de-grace if needed. 5 for sure is enough. How about your auto that won,t fire when pushed into a perp or in the stuggle your mag release is pushed . Oh yes it doe,s happen.

SIGSAREBETTER
12-14-2008, 12:40
Most of the time I feel more than adequate, particularly since I've spent a lot of time developing skill with the 638 I carry. But in the really shady parts of Tacoma where there are roving bands of urban clowns, I always long for my GLOCK 20 or SIG.

Gunboat1
12-14-2008, 14:41
If you can,t hit what you aim at a 17 shot auto won,t help you! I feel my snub is good enough for 3 perp,s with 2 rounds left over for coup-de-grace if needed. 5 for sure is enough. How about your auto that won,t fire when pushed into a perp or in the stuggle your mag release is pushed . Oh yes it doe,s happen.

Ah, I understand. People only shoot high-capacity semiautos to cover up for their poor marksmanship. A short barrel, long, stiff trigger and marginal sights will result in perfect hits, and all one-shot stops from a middling-powerful caliber fired from that short barrel will definitely happen, assuring you of winning over three attackers, with two shots left over for coups de grace.

That's certainly realistic.

Perhaps, just perhaps, a weapon with more barrel length, better sights and trigger, a much faster reload and many more shots on tap might be a better weapon with which to defend one's life?

Nahhhh.

17z
12-14-2008, 16:32
I carry a .500 S&W in a 2.5 inch barrel. I love the one shot to3 it gives. 17z

1911govt
12-25-2008, 00:38
I carry a S&W 642 5 days out of the week. Absolute concealment is a must for me Mon-Fri. If my company's policy were to miraculously change in favor of the 2a, I'd be packing a full sized 1911. Yes I do feel a little under gunned, but what I have is 10X better than a cell phone and prayers.

50 Cent
12-25-2008, 12:03
How about the new Taurus 6 shot snubby based on the M85 frame? If six shots won't get you out of trouble in a civilian SD situation then either you should have stayed at home or concealed an underfolding Krink under your arm.

Bannack
01-04-2009, 03:39
Nope, don't feel undergunned and most of the time my 642 with a couple of speed loaders is all I have with me now.

Tank44
01-04-2009, 22:24
I never feel under gunned with my SP101 snubby! A Federal 357B round makes a nice hole. If I need more than 5 shots and 2 quick re-loads, I figure I'm in bigger trouble than the gun is gonna help me with.

Brock Morgan
01-05-2009, 00:18
I have not waded through all of the posts but I can tell you that lately I have taken to carrying two J-frames and do not feel at all "under-gunned". I will likely soon swap one of the J=Frames for a 325 NG, but this will not change my overall thought process....

First, the who shot placement concept. If you think the .38 +P is a pansy load then let me hit you with a couple. Yes there are stouter calibers, but that alone will not win the fight;

Second, any firearm you have with you is better than the one you leave ______ (insert location here);

And third, I typically live and travel about in one of the nicer parts of my city. Were I to go and hang out in the more lively parts of the city I would arm accordingly....and bring friends armed similarly for backup. In short, assess your own life risk. there is nothing wrong with toting the latest and greatest bang machine, especially because I make a living of making holsters for all of the new firearms....but I make a lot of holsters for small firearms and "old school" ones, too.

yes, a snubby can be slow to reload, hence my "new york" reload....along with bunches of speed strips carried on me or in pockets. I doubt if a situation ever arises in my life where I would have to shoot that I will have to fire more than 10 rounds....if I do, I will also be seeking cover and reloading from there....along with calling 911 and inviting my local constabulary to come join the party, after which I will take a moment to change my shorts.

Let's raise a toast to ALL of the fine firearms we have in this country, and the ability to carry them....and let us all remember, too, that we have that right because of the fine men and women who sacrificed of themselves on our behalf. Don't throw away that sacrifice by believing every word some politician says....it is not a right unless you INSIST on it....otherwise it is simply words on paper.

g36user
01-07-2009, 22:49
That's a good post, Brock...and thanks for the link to bluegrass...very nice!!

g

Brock Morgan
01-08-2009, 07:34
That's a good post, Brock...and thanks for the link to bluegrass...very nice!!

g

thank you, sir! let me know if you ever need any good leather.

take care

brock

Dandapani
01-17-2009, 14:55
3 rounds, 3 YARDS, 3 seconds... and that was before auto pistols became the norm... .

21 feet is a long self defense shot. An aggressive DA might not agree with it. :whistling:

Landric
01-17-2009, 18:37
21 feet is a long self defense shot. An aggressive DA might not agree with it. :whistling:

Of course that would be 7 yards, not three yards.

Since I last posted to this thread I have acquired a Ruger SP101 2 1/4" DAO .357. I haven't made it to the range yet to qualify, but once I do, I expect to carry it as a primary on a fairly regular basis. It will, of course, still be backed up by my trusty 37-2 Airweight. I don't expect to feel undergunned with two 5 shot snubbies and a couple of reloads.

I have also decided to try an IDPA match shooting SSR with my SP101 here soon. Reloads will be a combination of speed loaders and speed strips, just to see how things go. I fully expect to be trounced, but it will be worth it for the experience.

Dandapani
01-20-2009, 09:17
Of course that would be 7 yards, not three yards.


Yup. My bad. Sorry. Brain fart. Too many meds. Up too late. Not enough coffee.... :crying:

Bannack
01-20-2009, 09:23
Would any of you trade your snub for the new 380 LCP by Ruger?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Landric
01-20-2009, 11:10
Would any of you trade your snub for the new 380 LCP by Ruger?

Not even if I was convinced that the LCP, or any small auto for that matter, was as reliable as my snubbies. I'm not convinced of that of course, because in my experience such small autos are not as reliable.

coltm4a3
02-21-2009, 01:23
my snubby is more often than not my night stand gun.i feel in a situation were im awakened by a threat in the middle of the night, the simple nature of a small revolver seems like a better alternative than a semi auto .


Care to explain why you feel this way? The whole purpose of a snubby is concealment, and for a nightstand/home defense gun there is no need for concealment. A full size auto, mainly my Glock 38 or 1911 .45 gets that duty for me....

Gunboat1
02-21-2009, 03:41
Care to explain why you feel this way? The whole purpose of a snubby is concealment, and for a nightstand/home defense gun there is no need for concealment. A full size auto, mainly my Glock 38 or 1911 .45 gets that duty for me....

Exactly - Pick up a snub, point it, find the trigger, and pull.

Pick up a full-size Glock with 18 rounds available, longer sight radius, tritium sight capability, point it, find the trigger, and pull. :upeyes:

The line of reasoning seems to be "I like the snub, so despite any and all evidence to the contrary, I want to believe it is sufficient to the task. I'm not listening to you. If you can't do it with six..... etc."

Freedom is great - do what you want. I just hope that new people who are choosing based upon what they read or hear, choose wisely, with a full appreciation of the weight of collective experience.

h&kbama
04-02-2009, 11:22
I love Snubbies! The only time I have only a snubbie on my person, is when dress code dictates such (shirt tucked in for church, no jacket weather). Otherwise, if I am carrying a snubbie, it is only a secondary weapon. I live in a rural area where violent crimes against persons do occur, but not on a large scale. I would love to get another snubbie so when I can only carry the ol' J frame, at least I could have (2) on hand (one in pocket & one on the ankle). Just my 2 cents. Just to avoid the argument, I am not fond of belly bands, IWB holsters that one can tuck their shirt around and so forth. Pocket, ankle, or strong side hip OWB only for me.

watsoncb
04-02-2009, 19:29
442 with 2 Buffalo Bores and 3 of Hornaday's new 38spl defense rounds.

LApm9
04-04-2009, 19:26
I regard five shots as enough. My strategy is not to win a shoot out, it is effect an escape. My use of a weapon is to prevent "them" from preventing my escape. By the second second I will be moving fast.

My dear departed daddy, who carried a weapon as an LEO for many decades, and used it, imparted two points to me:

1) The first aimed shot wins
2) If you use your weapon, the first time the other guy should know you have it is when he sees the flash (in answer to my obvious question: If you do it right he will not hear it.)

I still carry a speed strip, though.

Glockanatorrrrr
04-05-2009, 07:25
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I second this!!!!! NO WAY!

ncligs
04-05-2009, 09:55
I feel comfortable with any of my three cc weapons below in my signature!

Berto
04-05-2009, 11:56
Exactly - Pick up a snub, point it, find the trigger, and pull.

Pick up a full-size Glock with 18 rounds available, longer sight radius, tritium sight capability, point it, find the trigger, and pull. :upeyes:

The line of reasoning seems to be "I like the snub, so despite any and all evidence to the contrary, I want to believe it is sufficient to the task. I'm not listening to you. If you can't do it with six..... etc."

Freedom is great - do what you want. I just hope that new people who are choosing based upon what they read or hear, choose wisely, with a full appreciation of the weight of collective experience.


His line of reasoning is based on his own sensibilities, experience and knowledge, yet you seem to assume to know better what he needs.
How is this?

Gunboat1
04-05-2009, 12:08
His line of reasoning is based on his own sensibilities, experience and knowledge, yet you seem to assume to know better what he needs.
How is this?

We all inhabit the same physical world. The laws of physics and mathematics don't vary according to individual so-called "sensibilities." You can learn them and live by them, or you can ignore them at your peril.

I'm not talking to the individual snub owner who just looooooves his snub and isn't going to change his mind no matter what logic he is faced with. I'm talking to the noob who is trying to choose a weapon for self-defense. I'm hopeful that with some thought, that noob will choose a better weapon than a 5-shot snub as his ONLY weapon.

Tactician
04-05-2009, 12:52
If you don't feel under gunned, you are over confident no matter what you decide to carry. Do any of you folks go anywhere without a gun? My carry weapon varies by season, my wardrobe, and the threat environment. There is no one sized fits all weapon.

I'm old school. I carry a J frame quite often, but then again, I'm not going into real bad places either. People have to realize that you may not always prevail when faced with an overwhelming group of determined well armed people no matter what your weapons choice.

Usually, my truck is close by and my J frame would get me back for additional fire power if SHTF. If I am not close to additional weapons, I carry more fire power and magazines.

Here is the deal, tactics will serve you better than fire power. Most criminals run at the first sight of trouble. If they don't run, you should. If you have cover, it don't matter how many there are. If faced with overwhelming fire power, If I cannot get out of the situation, my next move is to acquire more weapons either from my stash or getting my hands on one of the bad guys guns.

People need to face the fact that you might not prevail in a gun fight no matter what you carry. Guns don't make you bullet proof. Speed is your friend and J frames can get in the fight early without drawing a weapon.

JackC53
04-05-2009, 17:05
Used to think that revolvers were for old farts so when I started my CCW "career" it was hi-cap semi-autos all the way. Got to shoot my friend's SP101 a few years back and now I own 2 of those (2 1/4" and 3 1/16") and 4 S&W snubbies. My 360PD W/CT grips is my carry piece at least 9 months of the year and I feel very safe with it. In the winter I'll usually go with my G19 or the SP101. I love my SP101 2 1/4" so much it's the only gun in my collection that has a Mitch Rosen holster to sleep in! lol.

I have my G21 with a light/laser setup on my nightstand and a Mossberg 590 ready in the safe. My personal preference for home defense is a shotgun but the G21 will give me plenty of time to get to the Mossy if needed. YMMV. The odds of me ever needing to defend myself with a gun are astronomical (I hope) but I'm a believer in being prepared...

LT642
04-05-2009, 18:04
I have been carrying a 642 j-frame and a speedloader/speedstrip off duty for many years. However, recent events have convinced me that I need to step it up a notch. I now carry my issued Glock 23 and a spare magazine off duty, the spare mag is a must if you carry an auto should you have a magazine failure.
I always thought I was well protected and truth be known I was, however I have to say the Glock is much more comforting than the j-frame.
I read people say if I'm just going out to pick up a paper, etc. I'll grab my _________,
but, if you need a gun you need a gun,period and you may wish you had taken the time to carry a combat ready pistol vs. a bug.
I ordered a new iwb holster and have commited to the Glock, I hope this helps.
Stay safe.

FLGUY
04-05-2009, 18:11
Based on where I live and where I usually go, carrying my 19 is not always convenient. I feel confident with my 642 tucked in a pocket holster with +P .38 and 10 more in 2 auto loaders. I figure I'll be able to handle most (maybe not all) SD situations that might occur. Sometimes I do carry the 642 as backup to the 19.

RemSp10
04-05-2009, 18:17
I have been carrying a 642 j-frame and a speedloader/speedstrip off duty for many years. However, recent events have convinced me that I need to step it up a notch. I now carry my issued Glock 23 and a spare magazine off duty, the spare mag is a must if you carry an auto should you have a magazine failure.
I always thought I was well protected and truth be known I was, however I have to say the Glock is much more comforting than the j-frame.
I read people say if I'm just going out to pick up a paper, etc. I'll grab my _________,
but, if you need a gun you need a gun,period and you may wish you had taken the time to carry a combat ready pistol vs. a bug.
I ordered a new iwb holster and have commited to the Glock, I hope this helps.
Stay safe.

This is how i feel now. my .38 has been with me everwhere.
Now either my 22 or 19 leave the house with me.

Berto
04-09-2009, 10:32
We all inhabit the same physical world. The laws of physics and mathematics don't vary according to individual so-called "sensibilities." You can learn them and live by them, or you can ignore them at your peril.

I'm not talking to the individual snub owner who just looooooves his snub and isn't going to change his mind no matter what logic he is faced with. I'm talking to the noob who is trying to choose a weapon for self-defense. I'm hopeful that with some thought, that noob will choose a better weapon than a 5-shot snub as his ONLY weapon.


Unfortunately, you seem to assume you know more than every individual that chooses a snub. Most handguns are a compromise.
For a small handgun, the snub is a good choice given the required practice.
Many very well respected instructors would agree with this...and they understand the laws of physics and mathematics likely as well as you do.

Maybe you should write a book, for all the noobs.

fowler
04-12-2009, 19:42
Its enough and all you hope you never have to use.

NFrameFred
04-24-2009, 15:16
Never had to actually point it or use it, but was faced with a situation where my 5 shot J frame felt woefully puny in my hand as I pondered whether or not the individual on the other side of the door was going to make me find out how effective it was. At that moment I wished it had been my model 29.

But and however, I have enough confidence in my abilities and common sense to know that it's not practical for me to always have my 12 gauge or my model 29 at arms length, but I can and do keep my airweight J Frame with me at all times.

The biggest one you have in the safe is useless when you need it on the street. And the one you have and the one you'll constantly have is better than the one you leave behind occasionally because it's too big, it prints too easy, it's too heavy, it's blah, blah, blah - not WITH you.

Guess I'm not a tough guy - if I'm in a fight for my life I'm going to feel undergunned with anything that isn't shoulder fired . . . . or crew served :laughing:

CraigsG19
04-25-2009, 14:08
.

Guess I'm not a tough guy - if I'm in a fight for my life I'm going to feel undergunned with anything that isn't shoulder fired . . . . or crew served :laughing:
+1 ... Hard to argue this logic.

Gunboat1
04-25-2009, 16:27
...it's too heavy, it's blah, blah, blah - not WITH you.

Guess I'm not a tough guy - if I'm in a fight for my life I'm going to feel undergunned with anything that isn't shoulder fired . . . . or crew served :laughing:


So make the necessary sacrifices to carry a better weapon, consistently. That isn't so hard to do.

In the event of a fight, feeling undergunned? Almost certainly. Actually being undergunned? Not necessarily, and only if you let yourself be. That was the whole point of this thread's discussion. Usually, there are better choices which will be far less likely to fall short of the need than a 5-shot snub.

AZ_Quailhunter
04-25-2009, 20:03
NO.....not really. For two reasons.....I can carry more than one.....and I can also carry my Glock 19. I think I have most of it covered.

frankr
05-09-2009, 04:44
I have a Glock 27 that I carry, but I feel just as good with my S&W 442 loaded with 158 grain SJHP. If your in the process of being robbed the bad guy will be surprised and shocked when you pull your weapon and at the sound of the first shot he will be running as fast as he can. Five bullets will be plenty even with two bad guys. They are not going to stick around and shoot it out with you.

michiglocker
05-09-2009, 11:03
I have a Glock 27 that I carry, but I feel just as good with my S&W 442 loaded with 158 grain SJHP. If your in the process of being robbed the bad guy will be surprised and shocked when you pull your weapon and at the sound of the first shot he will be running as fast as he can. Five bullets will be plenty even with two bad guys. They are not going to stick around and shoot it out with you.

What if the two of them both are packing high cap and have many more chances at you then you do at them? :devilish:(just playing Devil's advocate)

Phoenix_400
05-16-2009, 17:55
Nope, no the least bit undergunned. I carry a 642 everywhere with me. Though I'm looking for detective special as I usually end up carrying IWB. The 642 will stick around as a pocket or ankle gun when dress requires.

Of course, tactics are the thing to keep in mind. Most of my friends carry Sigs, Glocks, XDs, and then there's me, with my little snubbie. They laugh, until I explain it to them. The snub goes everywhere with me, and anywhere on my person. They can't do that and don't always carry. They leave the gun the car, at home, whatever. If I'm wearing pants, I've got my snub with me. My snub serves one purpose, get me out of immediate danger. This gun's purpose is to end a confrontation quickly or, failing that, get my assailants duckin' and movin' and get me back to my car. There I can either:

A.) Get the heck outta there. Then call the cops once I'm far enough away that I feel safe.

B.) Grab the CZ outta the car and either finish the fight or stay in it until I can safely disengage.

The snub does have its limitations. Plan around them and you are not undergunned.

JackC53
05-16-2009, 18:18
About 75% of all gunfights occur at 10 feet or less. That's BEFORE we're even talking about the odds of running into a situation where the other guy(s) even has a gun. I don't feel undergunned with a snubby but I would feel undergunned with my Glock19 sitting at home because it's 90 degrees out and I'm wearing shorts and a t-shirt.

Ulysses
06-06-2009, 19:36
A J-frame is effective but think of this!

A J-Frame has 5 rounds and is slow to reload compared to say a Glock 19.

It has 1/3 the rounds and less powerful rounds at that.


A derringer had 2 rounds which is 40% of what a Colt Single Action Army carried when loaded with 5 rounds as was typical for safety.

SO we are effectively carrying the modern equivalent of a deringer compared to the more effective arms of our times.

That being said I would rather most people carry J-Frames because they are MUCH more forgiving against NEGLIGENT gun discharges.

glockguerilla
07-19-2009, 13:14
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

My dad would talk about this scenario being most common. He had 25 years with Dallas TX police dept. I train often with this in mind.

We're on summer vacation at our beach house and I have my snubbie and
keep Glock 19 cached. Snubbie in my cargo pocket (Nemesis holster) and
loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ammo. I practice regularly and feel
very confident for any scenario may occur in the area we're in (extremely
low crime rate). http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=786 Folks in
our community look out for each other and most all ccw.

LSP972
08-02-2009, 09:35
Interesting discussion. Valid points made on all sides.

I have carried ONE J-frame when off-duty for many , many years... and never felt "undergunned". I felt that way for the same reason I never felt undergunned when carrying a six-shot revolver in uniform... any encounter would be one-on-one, two-on-one at most; and if I couldn't handle it with six rounds, well, it just wasn't my day. I had the snubby as a back-up, but the odds were that if I didn't win in those first six magnum rounds, I probably wasn't going to.

Later, when I got into plain clothes, I carried TWO J-frames; one as a primary, the other as a back-up. And felt adequately armed.

Times have changed. It usually takes an epiphany of some sort to change an old-timer's mind who is set in his ways. Mine happened at the local "bad mall' (there are two in the BR area) where the bride and I stopped in one Saturday evening to get something unobtainable at the 'good mall'.

The place was overrun with wanna-be gangsta thugs who collected in groups of five or more... and were looking for something to keep their limited attention spans engaged. For the first time, I felt nearly naked... even with a J-frame in my pocket and six extra rounds in a speed strip in a belt pouch.

I normally don't go to that mall, period... for that reason. Before Katrina, the local trash pretty much kept to their own areas. Since Katrina, these pieces of cancer (many from New Orleans, who stayed here) have infested the whole town.

I now carry a G19 AND a J-frame everywhere. Its a crying shame, but at least I'm getting my head in gear for The Revolution....

.

badge4436
08-02-2009, 10:30
Interesting discussion. Valid points made on all sides.

I have carried ONE J-frame when off-duty for many , many years... and never felt "undergunned". I felt that way for the same reason I never felt undergunned when carrying a six-shot revolver in uniform... any encounter would be one-on-one, two-on-one at most; and if I couldn't handle it with six rounds, well, it just wasn't my day. I had the snubby as a back-up, but the odds were that if I didn't win in those first six magnum rounds, I probably wasn't going to.

Later, when I got into plain clothes, I carried TWO J-frames; one as a primary, the other as a back-up. And felt adequately armed.

Times have changed. It usually takes an epiphany of some sort to change an old-timer's mind who is set in his ways. Mine happened at the local "bad mall' (there are two in the BR area) where the bride and I stopped in one Saturday evening to get something unobtainable at the 'good mall'.

The place was overrun with wanna-be gangsta thugs who collected in groups of five or more... and were looking for something to keep their limited attention spans engaged. For the first time, I felt nearly naked... even with a J-frame in my pocket and six extra rounds in a speed strip in a belt pouch.

I normally don't go to that mall, period... for that reason. Before Katrina, the local trash pretty much kept to their own areas. Since Katrina, these pieces of cancer (many from New Orleans, who stayed here) have infested the whole town.

I now carry a G19 AND a J-frame everywhere. Its a crying shame, but at least I'm getting my head in gear for The Revolution....

.

Sadly I find myself supplementing the J frame with a G26 or G19 myself. Times are changing. Add the fact that I have done so much professional training with my son using the G19 and G26 I feel kind of foolish not carrying one with at least one extra magazine. As for clothing, I find I can wear any kind of clothing and find a way to stash the G26 and an extra mag, even in swimtrunks (think SmartCarry).

It gets down to threat assessment. Although a retired detective from a large Southern California Sheriff's Dept. I am double dipping as a crime scene investigator for a smaller agency. I carry a G26 and an extra mag concealed on that job. I have got so used to that weapon that when I'm not working I just carry it appendix style under a T-shirt whether wearing shorts or Levis. It has never been noticed that I know of.

I have been a long time revolver guy. Carried a Smith and Wesson Combat Masterpiece six shot .38 for the first 13 years in patrol. I didn't feel undergunned with that. I also carried a backup Chief Special five shot .38 with a dehorned hammer.

The thing is that Glock is just soooo reliable....and all those extra rounds....why do I feel like a traitor?

Gunboat1
08-02-2009, 16:06
Not a traitor - just a more thoughtful, better prepared sheepdog. Thank you for your service, and your candor.

den888
10-21-2009, 20:01
No, if it's all I got, I would use it to my advantage.

GuitarCrazyo
11-07-2009, 13:56
My bestfriend betrayed me. She was one of the only people I was close to, she was like a sister and a haven away from my not so perfect home life. She stole my first love from me, whom I gave everything to. Needless to say, I was depressed, hurt, suicidal tendencies, yadayada. I was alone except for them because my ex and I were the only ones to fail our grade Laziness and we only knew each other really, and she was the only one who would visit us. Imagine yourself being in that situation, its not pretty. I knew it would never work, and it didnt. Eventually I forgave her. Were friends again. My ex and I are friends again. We dont hang like we used to, but we talk. Its funny how she thinks I want to take her bf from her. Paranoia much, its like thats payback because she felt somewhat guilty. I mean, if theyre broken up, then yeah. On top of that, when she was dating my ex, he tried to sort of do some things I can not really say with me, tried. I stood stock still when he kissed me, not kissing back but not stopping him either. Just bored, I didnt even provoke him.But yeah, were all good now. All is forgiven. Funny thing is, forgiveness is for you, not them. If you forgive them, youre relinquishing any sort of control they had on your life. You feel better when the anger subsides. Chances are, if theyre going to do something to you like what happened in my or your situation, either you both had a major misunderstanding, your friendship wasnt as strong as you thought, or the friend just simply isnt worthy of you.

Drew78
11-09-2009, 12:55
My bestfriend betrayed me. She was one of the only people I was close to, she was like a sister and a haven away from my not so perfect home life. She stole my first love from me, whom I gave everything to. Needless to say, I was depressed, hurt, suicidal tendencies, yadayada. I was alone except for them because my ex and I were the only ones to fail our grade Laziness and we only knew each other really, and she was the only one who would visit us. Imagine yourself being in that situation, its not pretty. I knew it would never work, and it didnt. Eventually I forgave her. Were friends again. My ex and I are friends again. We dont hang like we used to, but we talk. Its funny how she thinks I want to take her bf from her. Paranoia much, its like thats payback because she felt somewhat guilty. I mean, if theyre broken up, then yeah. On top of that, when she was dating my ex, he tried to sort of do some things I can not really say with me, tried. I stood stock still when he kissed me, not kissing back but not stopping him either. Just bored, I didnt even provoke him.But yeah, were all good now. All is forgiven. Funny thing is, forgiveness is for you, not them. If you forgive them, youre relinquishing any sort of control they had on your life. You feel better when the anger subsides. Chances are, if theyre going to do something to you like what happened in my or your situation, either you both had a major misunderstanding, your friendship wasnt as strong as you thought, or the friend just simply isnt worthy of you.


WTF!?!

Like listing to Dr. Phil:dunno:

fletch_man
11-13-2009, 13:06
I saw a pic of Rob Leatham in a gun mag recently. When did he get so fat? He used to be really thin. WoW.

fletch_man
11-13-2009, 13:15
My bestfriend betrayed me. She was one of the only people I was close to, she was like a sister and a haven away from my not so perfect home life. She stole my first love from me, whom I gave everything to. Needless to say, I was depressed, hurt, suicidal tendencies, yadayada. I was alone except for them because my ex and I were the only ones to fail our grade Laziness and we only knew each other really, and she was the only one who would visit us. Imagine yourself being in that situation, its not pretty. I knew it would never work, and it didnt. Eventually I forgave her. Were friends again. My ex and I are friends again. We dont hang like we used to, but we talk. Its funny how she thinks I want to take her bf from her. Paranoia much, its like thats payback because she felt somewhat guilty. I mean, if theyre broken up, then yeah. On top of that, when she was dating my ex, he tried to sort of do some things I can not really say with me, tried. I stood stock still when he kissed me, not kissing back but not stopping him either. Just bored, I didnt even provoke him.But yeah, were all good now. All is forgiven. Funny thing is, forgiveness is for you, not them. If you forgive them, youre relinquishing any sort of control they had on your life. You feel better when the anger subsides. Chances are, if theyre going to do something to you like what happened in my or your situation, either you both had a major misunderstanding, your friendship wasnt as strong as you thought, or the friend just simply isnt worthy of you.

It's probably better if you don't carry or even have a snubbie at this point....................

glockess56
11-13-2009, 16:18
"My bestfriend betrayed me. She was one of the only people I was close to, she was like a sister and a haven away from my not so perfect home life. She stole my first love from me, whom I gave everything to. Needless to say, I was depressed, hurt, suicidal tendencies, yadayada. I was alone except for them because my ex and I were the only ones to fail our grade Laziness and we only knew each other really, and she was the only one who would visit us. Imagine yourself being in that situation, its not pretty. I knew it would never work, and it didnt. Eventually I forgave her. Were friends again. My ex and I are friends again. We dont hang like we used to, but we talk. Its funny how she thinks I want to take her bf from her. Paranoia much, its like thats payback because she felt somewhat guilty. I mean, if theyre broken up, then yeah. On top of that, when she was dating my ex, he tried to sort of do some things I can not really say with me, tried. I stood stock still when he kissed me, not kissing back but not stopping him either. Just bored, I didnt even provoke him.But yeah, were all good now. All is forgiven. Funny thing is, forgiveness is for you, not them. If you forgive them, youre relinquishing any sort of control they had on your life. You feel better when the anger subsides. Chances are, if theyre going to do something to you like what happened in my or your situation, either you both had a major misunderstanding, your friendship wasnt as strong as you thought, or the friend just simply isnt worthy of you."

What does this have to do with any guns in the first place? I don't think this person needs any model of a firearm!

Cody Jarrett
11-13-2009, 18:10
I have heard people say the snubbie is very convenient to carry but they felt undergunned while relying on it alone. When you consider your lifestyle-- where you go in your personal and business affairs, is this really an issue?

I make a point of staying out of situations and places I know have a credible and probable likelihood of a confrontation with criminals. Just about all of us have an area in town you want to stay out of. Having carried a gun both in patrol and as a detective for 30 years I don't feel undergunned with the J-Frame. I would have had to be deaf and blind not to get a "street sense" in all that time. I wasn't sitting behind a desk. The snubbie suits me just fine now that I am retired. I practice often with it and am fast and accurate with it. Fast in shooting and in reloading. Nothing unique there, just a matter of practice.

How many of you feel comfortable with just the snubbie when you go out and how many of you feel undergunned?
You hit it on the head. Situational awareness is priority #1. I regularly carry a concealed S&W 637 with a CT LaserGrip. I don't feel outgunned.

Stealth + Surprise + Skill = Success

oldtexan
11-29-2009, 10:25
OP, you asked, so I'll give my opinion, for whatever it's worth. I live in a small town with a low crime rate, and my lifestyle choices further reduce my likelihood of becoming a crime victim.

But I wouldn't feel comfortable only carrying a 5-shot anything. Five shots of any handgun caliber is IMO marginal for dealing with only a single opponent, and completely inadequate IMO for multiple opponents.

I do carry a 642 loaded with Speer Short Barrel +P 135 gr GDs or CorBon +P 110 gr DPXs, but it's as a backup in the weakside front pocket to my G34 strongside in an IWB holster. The 642 is there in case my strongside arm becomes disabled or otherwise unavailable, or the G34 runs out of ammo, has a stoppage, or in case the encounter just happens at too short a distance to allow drawing the G34. I carry a spare mag for the G34 but no reload for the 642. Overkill? Maybe, but I'd much rather have too many options in a serious social encounter than too few.

But to each his own. If a person is comfortable with a snubbie, that's his/her business, not mine.

John Galt
11-29-2009, 20:07
"My bestfriend betrayed me. She was one of the only people I was close to, she was like a sister and a haven away from my not so perfect home life. She stole my first love from me, whom I gave everything to. Needless to say, I was depressed, hurt, suicidal tendencies, yadayada. I was alone except for them because my ex and I were the only ones to fail our grade Laziness and we only knew each other really, and she was the only one who would visit us. Imagine yourself being in that situation, its not pretty. I knew it would never work, and it didnt. Eventually I forgave her. Were friends again. My ex and I are friends again. We dont hang like we used to, but we talk. Its funny how she thinks I want to take her bf from her. Paranoia much, its like thats payback because she felt somewhat guilty. I mean, if theyre broken up, then yeah. On top of that, when she was dating my ex, he tried to sort of do some things I can not really say with me, tried. I stood stock still when he kissed me, not kissing back but not stopping him either. Just bored, I didnt even provoke him.But yeah, were all good now. All is forgiven. Funny thing is, forgiveness is for you, not them. If you forgive them, youre relinquishing any sort of control they had on your life. You feel better when the anger subsides. Chances are, if theyre going to do something to you like what happened in my or your situation, either you both had a major misunderstanding, your friendship wasnt as strong as you thought, or the friend just simply isnt worthy of you."

What does this have to do with any guns in the first place? I don't think this person needs any model of a firearm!

After reading this persons other posts, I'd have to agree.


A 22 year old retired veteran who now works corrections in Fla.???

JohnP82
12-13-2009, 21:45
My usual EDC is my G27, but in the past when I have been out and about carrying my 5-shot snubbie I still felt comfortable. I have shot the heck out of that thing and I am very comfortable and confident with what I can do with it. My opinion is as long as you are well trained with a specific firearm you can be effective with it.

Sbh87
01-25-2010, 20:53
I carry an all stainless 640 with .357 magnum (plus an extra speed strip)...so no I do not feel undergunned with 10 rounds of .357. My thinking is if I need more than 10 rounds of .357 I was being a dumb ass, not thinking at all and deserve to where I am.

ATXG35
01-30-2010, 15:18
My S&W 342 has served me well and it would get me though most situations if it came down to it. I have carried it alone in the past but If I can carry more gun I will now days. I cant help but think about a situation like standing in line at the gas station when two guys with guns walk in...or im out at a late movie and some pshyco walk in with an AK47.

Granted either situation is bad and a larger gun dosent mean you will win. But going into a gun fight i would father have more gun.

Do I feel under gunned with the revolver? No not really. But to be honest I feel a little more confident with my kahr PM9(7+1) and an extra mag. It's only 3 more rounds I know.

flagg
03-11-2010, 22:03
I love my 442 and have been carrying it more and more recently. I'm actually thinking hard about using it for EDC in lieu of my LCP.

That being said, I'm not looking for any crazy shootout. If I ever have to shoot, I'm going to run the first chance I get. Fast.

When I get about 6 miles away, I'll reload with one of the two speed strips I keep so handily in my back pocket.

As other have said, never ever let your guard down. Look everywhere always and if something seems off, trust your gut and act accordingly.

Glock 17L
03-25-2010, 19:47
My main carry guns for the past several years have been S&W Centennial Snubbies..
I never feel under gunned when I'm carrying them..
There just so handy to drop in your pocket in a pocket holster & are just too handy, I used to carry an Hk P7M8, Glock 19, SIG P225, P229 but after getting an Airweight Snub I've never carried anything else ever..
I fitted a 9mm 940-1 Cylinder to my 642 No Dash & have created a 942
BTW That's my Snubbie Club #942, I would have chosen 940 but it was already taken..
It can be swapped from 38spl to 9mm by just loostening the end shake screw & swaping the cylinder out.. I had to fit the ratchet to the existing hand & shim the cylinder via power custom end shake shims by .003" so that both cylinders are perfect..
As far as reloads when I carry extras I fit two together & drop them in my left hand pocket, a reload with these is a breaze..Just drop em in there.
Gary/Hk
Smith & Wesson Models 940 & 642/942 Convertable Centennials
http://img387.imageshack.us/ifs/5076/img44/1/940942.jpg

Buckeye63
06-18-2010, 21:27
http://onfinite.com/libraries/1598774/288.jpg

8 shots 357 mag... nope not undergunned....

cyriaque
06-28-2010, 19:22
I'd like to change the question to: "Have you ever used a snubbie for self defense? If so, how did it turn out?" Everything else is conjecture.

Buckeye63
07-14-2010, 20:19
A snubbie can't protect you ...you must have a 50 Cal. BMG..or a Missle strike ..If you are approached by Thugs...in a back ally...call in a air strike ..you can use your cell phone to call in the coordinates...next thing you know Sidewinders will take out the block...
Yep Snubbies don't work..
Nope a 357 Mag. with a 125gr. HP bullet scooting at over 1100 fps ..will simply bounce off a attacker..maybe leave a powder burn ..thats about it

Now if you have a piece of semiautomatic tupperware..you can take out a tank.....nuthin like plastic.....nope nuthin

frankmako
07-14-2010, 21:09
no not me. i am ok with my moddel 60.

Drew78
07-15-2010, 05:04
For me... I would much rather have my Glock19 with me all the time. But, situations dictate otherwise. If I can conceal my 19 I will, but in the summer heat, which means less clothing, for work, pants and tucked in shirt (polo) it really limits ones ability to conceal on the belt.

I have tried tucking and IWB with my Glock 26 and while it conceals, its a beeotch to get to in any kind of hurry. The thing is BURRIED by a shirt, and is cinched down by a good gun belt. I hate to admit it, but when you need your gun in a SD scenario, you need it like 30 seconds ago...

To me, this is where the cliche "software over hardware" comes into play. I would much rather be able to walk down a inner city street with my hand on my LCR in my pocket than a Glock pinned into my wardwrobe. Now in the cooler months its a sport coat and a Glock 19. But gues what, I will still have my snub on me b/c it may still be easier to access first in that situation. Its all about tactics sometimes when you have to make the compromise.

Summer its an LCR in the strongside pocket, and one on my ankle with a speedstrip back up just in case I need it.

I am confident in the caliber of .38 spl, just wished it offered up a few more rounds w/o the reload... I realize however, that like most things, nothing is perfect...hence the constant analysis of compromise :)

-Drew

Berto
07-15-2010, 10:21
For me... I would much rather have my Glock19 with me all the time. But, situations dictate otherwise. If I can conceal my 19 I will, but in the summer heat, which means less clothing, for work, pants and tucked in shirt (polo) it really limits ones ability to conceal on the belt.

I have tried tucking and IWB with my Glock 26 and while it conceals, its a beeotch to get to in any kind of hurry. The thing is BURRIED by a shirt, and is cinched down by a good gun belt. I hate to admit it, but when you need your gun in a SD scenario, you need it like 30 seconds ago...

To me, this is where the cliche "software over hardware" comes into play. I would much rather be able to walk down a inner city street with my hand on my LCR in my pocket than a Glock pinned into my wardwrobe. Now in the cooler months its a sport coat and a Glock 19. But gues what, I will still have my snub on me b/c it may still be easier to access first in that situation. Its all about tactics sometimes when you have to make the compromise.

Summer its an LCR in the strongside pocket, and one on my ankle with a speedstrip back up just in case I need it.

I am confident in the caliber of .38 spl, just wished it offered up a few more rounds w/o the reload... I realize however, that like most things, nothing is perfect...hence the constant analysis of compromise :)

-Drew

Good post.
Sometimes it's all about getting the 'drop', something attainable with a pocket gun like the LCR or J frame.
All discussion about capacity/firepower is relevant, but pales next to the importance of being able to get to your weapon, and having one in the first place...a HUGE advantage over the average Joe.

Glockbuster
08-17-2010, 16:30
Undergunned ? it depends on the defensive scenario that you are likely to encounter.

Notice I said "defensive". Some posts here I consider to be from an attackerīs stance. Personally, Iīm never going going on a SWAT mission or the like, and many LEOīs-- rightfully so--view their carry needs as such.

So for casual urban personal protection I donīt feel undergunned with my 340PD. I will be in disadvantage, my assailant will have made up his mind to attack me before I make up my mind to use deadly force on him. He has the luxury to fire indiscriminately, I have to watch out for bystanders and get a clear shot--I probably wont be making many of them for very long. And I have other options (get the hell out) if I can.

For field use and if I contemplate an ambush while driving in a rural area, or if I see myself a target of multiple assailants out in the open with few people around, and that somehow I might be trapped and forced into gunfighting, Iīll take at least my Glock 31 with +4 base clips and more mags to spare with me.

Glock26z
08-17-2010, 22:54
A Ruger SP101 is my edc carry in a fanny pack. I am an amputee and runaround in a handicapped controled van and a allwheel drive scooter with nice size tires and wheels that came with it. Glock26z

Fire_Medic
10-23-2010, 17:44
Summer its an LCR in the strongside pocket, and one on my ankle with a speedstrip back up just in case I need it.

I am confident in the caliber of .38 spl, just wished it offered up a few more rounds w/o the reload... I realize however, that like most things, nothing is perfect...hence the constant analysis of compromise :)

-Drew

You do realize an LCP only holds a couple more rounds topped off than most snubbies right?

Drew78
10-23-2010, 17:55
I do. But I'm confused by your post. I like the LCR better than the LCP (which I have too btw). I'd rather have 5 38+p's than 7 380's

Drew

Fire_Medic
10-24-2010, 19:22
I do. But I'm confused by your post. I like the LCR better than the LCP (which I have too btw). I'd rather have 5 38+p's than 7 380's

Drew

My apologies, it seems I misunderstood your post. When you stated you wished it had more rounds, I interpreted it as you favoring the LCP because it carried more rounds. I had LCP on the brain from a thread right before I read this one, and it was late.

:wavey:

Drew78
10-24-2010, 19:37
My apologies, it seems I misunderstood your post. When you stated you wished it had more rounds, I interpreted it as you favoring the LCP because it carried more rounds. I had LCP on the brain from a thread right before I read this one, and it was late.

:wavey:

No problemo my friend!

FM12
02-13-2011, 21:21
I dont know. I rarely feel Overgunned with my Colt Cobra 6 shot!

opdsgt
02-14-2011, 13:23
Admitted periods of inexcusable laziness aside, I've been carrying off-duty guns of various calibers and capacities for 22 years; full size 9mm in fanny packs, .380 autos on the ankle, short .45s in belt slide or small of the back holsters, etc.

At the end of the day, the weapon that most often accompanies me when I set out into the Big Bad World of shopping carts, restaurants, church pews and psychopaths is a 5-shot snubbie and a speedloader.

"Beware of the man who owns one gun and practices with it."

2740dmx
03-05-2011, 07:28
I do not feel undergunned....

Just sold off my G27 and starting carrying my Ruger SP101...

Full-house .357 magnums, in a gun designed for up-close-and-personal, will serve my needs.

I do not carry a speed-loader... too bulky...

I do carry a couple speed-strips, but there ain't nothing "speedy" about them...
I have no illusions about reloading "under fire" with a speed strip (having practiced and seen how clumsy it can be under stress), but still like to have a reload at hand.... in case I can do need more than five shots, and somehow can get a reload done.... or perhaps to reload immediately after a shooting...

For my self-defense purposes (small town, rarely out late at night, low crime rate..) the snubby revolver serves it's purpose.

1 old 0311
03-05-2011, 13:37
I do not feel undergunned....

Just sold off my G27 and starting carrying my Ruger SP101...

Full-house .357 magnums, in a gun designed for up-close-and-personal, will serve my needs.

I do not carry a speed-loader... too bulky...

I do carry a couple speed-strips, but there ain't nothing "speedy" about them...
I have no illusions about reloading "under fire" with a speed strip (having practiced and seen how clumsy it can be under stress), but still like to have a reload at hand.... in case I can do need more than five shots, and somehow can get a reload done.... or perhaps to reload immediately after a shooting...

For my self-defense purposes (small town, rarely out late at night, low crime rate..) the snubby revolver serves it's purpose.



+1. I don't hang at crack houses, or biker bars. My odds are pretty low.

HexHead
03-05-2011, 14:03
When I had my 442, I felt confident in the caliber, .38 Special, but never got the warm & fuzzies about just having 5 of them. I'd prefer something like a Colt DS.

Jitterbug
04-03-2011, 07:46
Since the wife recently commandeered my PM9 and gave me her 442 with CT, I'm back to carrying a snub.

It's been a transition for her, but after a year of various times at the range, it's clear she does better with the PM9.

I can shoot the 442 with Lazer fairly well and I'm getting to really see the positive side of the Laser, especially compared to snubbie sights and the 442 in a DeSantis Nemesis does draw a bit quicker from my strong side pocket when compared to the PM9.

However, I really felt better "armed" with the PM9 stoked with 7 Gold dots with another 7 ready for a quick reload.

With the PM9 I can shoot it more accurately and 7 has got to better then 5 and the faster reload will always go to the magazine, at least for me anyway.

I'm carrying the 442 mostly out of nostalgia, snubs have given me warm fuzzies for many years...but at the end of the day and for my personal preferences it doesn't beat the beat the PM9, I'm not in a great big hurry but I'll probably be purchasing another PM9 sometime soon.

I know a CT can be installed on the PM9 but I haven't determined yet if it's a workable concept for pocket carry.

But, I'm not sure I'll sell the 442 with CT, it's still a unique and nice gun to have around.

Chup
04-03-2011, 09:13
I have posted in this column before but, I thought I might add an update today. Snubs are my favorite Guns. I carry Semi-autos all so. I always carry Two Guns. when carrying Two Snubs it is normally 357s. either Two Five Shooters or One Five Shooter and a Seven Shooter. I feel Ten or more shots off 357 will take care of any problem I may encounter. I carry reloads all so. If I had to be in Gang infested neighborhoods I my feel the need to carry my Two Glocks but, I try not to go there. I have never herd any one in my area that has ever needed to use their gun let alone multiple high cap Guns.

HotRoderX
04-03-2011, 12:16
Feel perfectly safe with a snubby loaded with 38special +P. 5rounds is more then enough in my humble opinion

akbound
04-03-2011, 20:54
Most days my main carry is a 649 loaded with Speer .38+P 135 grain Gold Dots and one spare speed strip with the same loads. This rides just behind my right hip in a Galco Speed Master. And no, I don't feel undergunned or it wouldn't be there.

In honesty though I have to admit there is also a KelTec P3AT in my left pocket in a Don Hume pocket holster and a spare mag for it behind my left hip on my belt. The P3AT is currently loaded with Federal HydraShoks, (though it may soon be Corbon +P loads with all copper DPX bullets).

When the 649 doesn't seem enough it's likely to be replaced by a S&W 296 chambered for .44 Special and loaded with 200 grain Gold Dot Speers. But I guess then that would still be a snubby!:winkie:

Jitterbug
04-04-2011, 07:39
Carrying two guns just doesn't work for me and if I'm going hip carry it's going to be a bigger gun...if one of my 1911's in on my hip, the pocket pistol usually stays home or safely stashed.

Often the 1911 will come off and the pocket pistol goes back into the pocket, just because it's an easier carry.

Not saying one way is better then another, just my personal preference and each to his own...

SuperSleuth
04-04-2011, 11:54
Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: There's more to prevailing in a gunfight than the gun I choose.

WMDoug
04-04-2011, 18:15
I went to my local gun store today to buy a G26. I own a G19 but didn't think I would carry it as much as I would a G26 because of its size. Talking with the owner, he says his primary carry weapon is a snubbie. He said "Look at us! It is April 4th and we are still wearing our jackets and coats. I don't want to have to be digging through layers of clothes to get to my holstered semi when I can have one hand on my briefcase and another on my snubbie." That made me go "hmmm." then he went on "What are you going to do when you are wearing shorts or sweats and want to head out to the 7-11 for a paper? Are you going to make sure you put on your pants with a belt and your IWB holster? Probably not and now you are unarmed. With my snubbie, it lives in my pocket, it is always with me, no matter WHAT I am wearing."

Life change. Needless to say, I didn't buy the G26. My head is spinning and I am looking at Ruger LCRs tonight on the internet.

Edited - No more head spin. Today I take delivery of a Ruger LCR with Crimson Trace grips. I read story after story of people sounding exactly like my gun store buddy and now I am sold.

Chup
05-14-2011, 09:20
No matter what is on or in my belt, at least half the year it is under a jacket or sweat shirt. This is when the Snub in my pocket is most comforting. I can have my hand on it and ready to go. I guess my main gun is the 357LCR in my pocket and my backup, today, is a G26 with a G19 Mag in it as my IWB gun.

Rex G
07-09-2011, 23:35
My hands are somewhat large, but they are equipped with skinny, medium and short fingers and thumbs. The SP101, with factory grip, is a good fit for me. Moreover, I can really clamp down hard on the SP101 grip, which is reassuring when things are at contact distance, when a bad guy might get his hands on my weapon. The SP101 is, therefore, a quite good defensive weapon for me, and I do not feel under-gunned.

I do like to carry two, or even three, but this is true even if one weapon is a double-stack auto, or other larger weapon.

I can shoot a 4"+ larger-framed sixgun notably better, if the targets are farther away, and my eyeglasses are in place, and not fogged or smudged, and the planets are lined up just right. Most self-defense incidents happens close-up.

I do actually prefer the 3.06" barrel length, because it balances such that I can better feel where the muzzle is pointing. Even if my goal is to use the sights whenever possible, I am ahead of the game if the gun is fairly well on-target before I acquire the sight picture, and sometimes, acquiring the sights is not possible. I prefer the longer sight radius, and greater amount of daylight on either side of the front sight, within the rear notch. Even
so, the 2.25" version is not a bad little five gun, and my three short-snubs have not been kicked out of the nest.

My avatar, at left, is a 3" GP100, and yes, those are factory adjustable sights. This is a rare variant. In actual practice, when I carry a larger-framed sixgun than an SP101, it usually has a 4" barrel. Day to day, though, around town, my SP101 five-guns are comforting enough that I do not feel under-gunned. If I anticipate trouble, I will pack
heavier, of course.

striperbisher
07-10-2011, 02:47
Average gunfight taking out household invasions and only using an attacker vs a victim is 1 shot, 1 second, 2-3 feet. FBI Stat. That is a true BG vs GG gunfight.

Gunboat1
07-12-2011, 12:07
Average gunfight taking out household invasions and only using an attacker vs a victim is 1 shot, 1 second, 2-3 feet. FBI Stat. That is a true BG vs GG gunfight.

Source citation, please. Everyone quotes that bit of "official" wisdom, but no one can ever produce the source document. It is also based upon old data, as it was quoted to me at least 25 years ago in training.

"Flash mobs". "Wilding". Gang activity. If we know nothing else, it should be that group criminal activity happens quite frequently, despite a declining national crime rate overall.

We can either take appropriate notice and arm ourselves accordingly, or we can take blissful comfort in "statistical average" lore, because we just loooove our snubby. Take your pick. I'll still carry more rounds than a snub can accommodate, whenever possible.

stmcelroy
07-12-2011, 12:18
Source citation, please. Everyone quotes that bit of "official" wisdom, but no one can ever produce the source document. It is also based upon old data, as it was quoted to me at least 25 years ago in training.

"Flash mobs". "Wilding". Gang activity. If we know nothing else, it should be that group criminal activity happens quite frequently, despite a declining national crime rate overall.

We can either take appropriate notice and arm ourselves accordingly, or we can take blissful comfort in "statistical average" lore, because we just loooove our snubby. Take your pick. I'll still carry more rounds than a snub can accommodate, whenever possible.

Don't know where that "statistic" came from, but can one ever truly be armed good enough for any encounter? Not sure about you but even a Glock 17 with 17+1 and an extra 17rd mag ONLY gets you to 35 rounds, what if you are really facing a mob?

The majority of us are looking to protect ourselves from the one or two thugs that we may encounter, not be armed to take on a huge group of people.

Gunboat1
07-12-2011, 12:31
Don't know where that "statistic" came from, but can one ever truly be armed good enough for any encounter? Not sure about you but even a Glock 17 with 17+1 and an extra 17rd mag ONLY gets you to 35 rounds, what if you are really facing a mob?

The majority of us are looking to protect ourselves from the one or two thugs that we may encounter, not be armed to take on a huge group of people.

Lots of discussion earlier in this thread explaining the scenario we are considering. You might want to read the whole thread.

Short version: five medium-power shots in a short-barreled weapon with marginal sights, relatively high recoil, a heavy trigger pull and an excruciatingly slow reload time just might not be the best choice for self-defense, when better weapons exist. It isn't so hard to improve your armament if you will accept this.

Old Junes
07-12-2011, 13:14
"Ah, I understand. People only shoot high-capacity semiautos to cover up for their poor marksmanship. A short barrel, long, stiff trigger and marginal sights will result in perfect hits, and all one-shot stops from a middling-powerful caliber fired from that short barrel will definitely happen, assuring you of winning over three attackers, with two shots left over for coups de grace."

:uglylol:

Old Junes
07-12-2011, 13:16
Ah, I understand. People only shoot high-capacity semiautos to cover up for their poor marksmanship. A short barrel, long, stiff trigger and marginal sights will result in perfect hits, and all one-shot stops from a middling-powerful caliber fired from that short barrel will definitely happen, assuring you of winning over three attackers, with two shots left over for coups de grace.

:uglylol:

(Sorry for the duplicate post)

the perfesser
07-13-2011, 18:15
Lots of discussion earlier in this thread explaining the scenario we are considering. You might want to read the whole thread.

Short version: five medium-power shots in a short-barreled weapon with marginal sights, relatively high recoil, a heavy trigger pull and an excruciatingly slow reload time just might not be the best choice for self-defense, when better weapons exist. It isn't so hard to improve your armament if you will accept this.

A few comments:

Reading the whole thread is a good and helpful suggestion.

But maybe stmcelroy has read the whole thread......

The "Short version" noted above by Gunboat1 is a cogent and persuasive argument for carrying something with more ammo capacity and better shootability than a snubbie; but it is merely the short version of the position that Gunboat1 and others hold. Reading the whole thread will elicit the short version for the opposing view.

As an old fat man relatively new to firearms I envy folks who can easily CC a G19/23 or G26/27. I would if I could -- instead of a snubbie -- but I can't. So a snubbie or a small Kahr in the pocket will have to do.

I'll admit that the snubbie is not for the unpracticed novice. But neither is the manual-safety-less Glock uncomfortably stuck by a noobie of less-than-admirable physique in an awkward IWB holster. It all gets down to solutions tailored to individual cases.

The value of this thread derives from the variety of viewpoints representing a multitude of individual factors (experience, ability, physical capability) pertinent to individual persons. I have learned much....

1 old 0311
07-14-2011, 13:53
Don't know where that "statistic" came from, but can one ever truly be armed good enough for any encounter? Not sure about you but even a Glock 17 with 17+1 and an extra 17rd mag ONLY gets you to 35 rounds, what if you are really facing a mob?

The majority of us are looking to protect ourselves from the one or two thugs that we may encounter, not be armed to take on a huge group of people.

Really. What about HUMAN WAVE attacks? What if everyone at the Super Dome suddenly got pissed at you? How about the population of Virginia? How many rounds should we carry? (SARCASM):whistling::whistling::whistling:

Gunboat1
07-14-2011, 17:41
Really. What about HUMAN WAVE attacks? What if everyone at the Super Dome suddenly got pissed at you? How about the population of Virginia? How many rounds should we carry? (SARCASM):whistling::whistling::whistling:

More than five. :upeyes:

1 old 0311
07-14-2011, 18:40
More than five. :upeyes:


So AFTER you shoot the first few the 'mob' will continue to advance? Refresh my memory on robbery videos that support this. What I have seen is when ANY firearm is displayed THEY RUN. When the first one gets shot THEY RUN REAL FAST.

I assume you are not running out for a bottle of milk in Afghanistan where it is possible to run across a few people don't mind dying for their virgins. When it comes to Jamal, and Pedro, they probably are NOT willing to sacrifice their lives in a 7-11.

Gunboat1
08-03-2011, 16:41
"Probably". Hmmm. Many criminals have been shot before, and lived. They aren't all that scared of you. Some will stand and fight. There are lots of examples of gunfights that have gone on longer than the so-called statistical norm. Read Robert Waters' "Guns Save Lives" for a few examples. If you are out of ammo after five shots, you die. I rest my case.

1 old 0311
08-03-2011, 17:05
"Probably". Hmmm. Many criminals have been shot before, and lived.

They probably faced crappy shots with semi autos. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Wuchak
08-03-2011, 20:06
Like everything the answer is that it depends. There is no hard and fast rule. When I go to the 60 acre off leash dog park the SP101 or M&P 340 CT come along. If I am running errands around town (the suburbs) sometimes only the P-3AT comes along. If I am going into downtown then the G26 with either the P-3AT or the M&P 340 are with me. If I really had to pick just one it would probably be none of the above. It would be a single stack 9mm like a Ruger LC9. I am smitten with my revolvers but my G26 has been gaining ground.

Anyone remember the movie "The Gambler" with Kenny Rogers. When confronted by four guys with knives Brady Hawkes (Rogers) pulls out his derringer. One of the bad guys remarks that Hawkes only has two bullets and there are four of them. Hawkes replies, "The question is... which two of you are willing to take the bullets? So the other two can do the cutting."

1 old 0311
08-04-2011, 13:55
Like everything the answer is that it depends. There is no hard and fast rule. When I go to the 60 acre off leash dog park the SP101 or M&P 340 CT come along. If I am running errands around town (the suburbs) sometimes only the P-3AT comes along. If I am going into downtown then the G26 with either the P-3AT or the M&P 340 are with me. If I really had to pick just one it would probably be none of the above. It would be a single stack 9mm like a Ruger LC9. I am smitten with my revolvers but my G26 has been gaining ground.

Anyone remember the movie "The Gambler" with Kenny Rogers. When confronted by four guys with knives Brady Hawkes (Rogers) pulls out his derringer. One of the bad guys remarks that Hawkes only has two bullets and there are four of them. Hawkes replies, "The question is... which two of you are willing to take the bullets? So the other two can do the cutting."


Guess that's why mechanics have lots of tools. My J frame, in pocket carry, gets the most work. In jacket weather a 3" model 66 in .357 goes on the belt. Weddings, and 'suit' occasion gets a J frame in a ankle holster. Truck has a 12 gauge, with folding stock, or a AK folder. Right tool for the right job.

Chup
08-25-2011, 09:12
My last post was in May but, things haven't changed much. I have been carrying Two or Three Snubs most of the summer. 617 Taurus, SP101 Ruger, LCR357, 442 S&W. Today I think I'm going with the SP101, LCR357, and just for grins the 442 in my back pocket. Reloads for all. What are you talk'en about? under gunned?

Gunboat1
08-25-2011, 14:04
My last post was in May but, things haven't changed much. I have been carrying Two or Three Snubs most of the summer. 617 Taurus, SP101 Ruger, LCR357, 442 S&W. Today I think I'm going with the SP101, LCR357, and just for grins the 442 in my back pocket. Reloads for all. What are you talk'en about? under gunned?

:agree: NOT under-gunned.:wavey:

Doghouse
08-26-2011, 10:21
I just recently traded for a KLCR-357 and I love that gun. I quit carrying my G26, and just carry the Ruger now. I carry 2 speedloaders in a HKS medium holder.
I don't feel a bit under-gunned with the 357. I don't see any difference carrying it from the Glock. I would double-tap with 9mm, even with the JHP's that I was carrying. I wouldn't think that 2 shots would be necessary with my Federal 125gr JHP's in 357. They are the best one-shot stoppers for handguns, according to actual shootings data.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

The Ruger also conceals better and easier than the G26.
I guess that I need to figure out how to conceal carry my 32 pound 50BMG, so some people here think I have enough fire power.lol

fredglock
10-16-2011, 12:16
Sure I do, but I'd rather be under gunned than non-gunned.

Sometimes a J-frame Smith is the best you can manage to conceal.

fred

off road
10-16-2011, 14:25
Sure I do, but I'd rather be under gunned than non-gunned. Sometimes a J-frame Smith is the best you can manage to conceal.

I recently up gunned from .38+P to .357, because of concern for velocity lost from the very short barrel. Even fired from a little 11 oz J-frame, I can live with the flash, blast, and recoil if that will save my life! Best pocket carry guns I have found....

2740dmx
11-26-2011, 18:26
Update to my snubbie feelings....regarding feeling undergunned...:whistling:

Now I am carrying my S&W 66 snub, and/or my new S&W 340 M&P no lock: I most definitely DO NOT feel undergunned!

I am back to all revolver for ccw weapons...and couldn't be happier.

When "breaking in" my 340 snub today...I remembered just how easy revolvers are. No failures of any kind, no wondering if the ammo nose profile would feed in my feedramp, no stovepipe or FTF....

Just point and shoot. bang.

The shape of revolvers works better for concealment for me too....
hides just behind my hip, and does not print.

Old school is working for me!

Eldon Hickey
12-04-2011, 08:18
I like snubbies and feel confident with a 642 in most situations. It seems obvious that the outcome of a gunfight is less likely to be determined by magazine capacity than my who gets off the first effective shot. I feel that a snubnose offers the best chance of getting the first shot, even if you have to shoot through a pocket, and with practice it can be made likely that shot will be effective. Most of my practice recently has consisted of drawing and firing at a silhouette target at 3 yards--from the hip--a latter day version of quickdraw I suppose. With not a lot of practice I can keep well over 90 percent of my shots in center-mass doing this. Someone said "the first rule of gunfighting is have a gun." With a lightweight snubnose it's easy to always "have a gun." I also recognize the advantage of having more than 5 rounds available in some situations....a home invasion for instance where there is usually more than one bad guy. I keep an 8-shot .357 Nightguard in my nightstand and an 870 under the bed with that scenario in mind.

Gunboat1
12-04-2011, 09:34
I like snubbies and feel confident with a 642 in most situations. It seems obvious that the outcome of a gunfight is less likely to be determined by magazine capacity than my who gets off the first effective shot. I feel that a snubnose offers the best chance of getting the first shot, even if you have to shoot through a pocket, and with practice it can be made likely that shot will be effective. Most of my practice recently has consisted of drawing and firing at a silhouette target at 3 yards--from the hip--a latter day version of quickdraw I suppose. With not a lot of practice I can keep well over 90 percent of my shots in center-mass doing this. Someone said "the first rule of gunfighting is have a gun." With a lightweight snubnose it's easy to always "have a gun." I also recognize the advantage of having more than 5 rounds available in some situations....a home invasion for instance where there is usually more than one bad guy. I keep an 8-shot .357 Nightguard in my nightstand and an 870 under the bed with that scenario in mind.

Not necessarily obvious. Multiple attacker scenario is a different thing than a one-on-one encounter.

Berto
12-04-2011, 10:01
It's all a balance when considering a small pocket sized gun.
For me, reliability is the most important, followed by having someting that is easy to use quickly.
I can benefit more from my 442 than comparable small autos of similar size and weight.
It always works, no matter how good my grip is.
I hit well with it, and quickly.
It shoots heavier 158gr bullets from 850- to over 1000fps.(Proven to work very well)
Since we're talking pocket guns ( not compact or full sized service weapons), I also like knowing that when I need my weapon, the cylinder will still be in battery because there is no button to be pushed or leaned on, causing it to fall out. It will work whether pressed against my adversary, or me.
If someone thinks an extra 2 rounds or supposed 'easier to shoot' auto pistol will get them over the hump when faced with a gang, enjoy your firepower advantage....I'll keep practicing with what I have.

happyguy
12-17-2011, 10:44
I acquired a SW 442 about a month ago after not having owned a snub for about 10-11 years.

Three range trips so far and it seems like I've never been without one.

I think that it is the rare situation where a snub alone wouldn't be sufficient in competent hands. Unfortunately a lot of people aren't necessarily competent with the snub and the rare situations seem to be becoming less rare.

I love the way my 442 rides in its Don Hume JIT just in front of my hip. All that's required for concealment is a t-shirt. Not only that, because of it's light weight and short barrel, it is REALLY FAST to bring to bear on target.

My 442 is going to be my primary simply because of the speed with which it can be employed. Being the first to get a solid hit on target should be priority number two, right after avoiding being shot.

That said, I'm not going to give up my G19/G26 or P7 as carry guns although in reality they will be backups to the snub. I know that's backwards to how most people envision employing them but that's the way I'm going to roll.

As to the OP's original question the answer is no I don't feel under gunned with a snub, but then I am not in the middle of a fight against superior numbers at the moment either.

One last thing, when I bought my 442 I bought a right hand Don Hume JIT and a left hand JIT, just so I would have more options for carry and in case I ever injure my right hand/arm. I'm thinking it might be nice to add a 640 or 642 to the mix and carry two snubs.:supergrin:

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Itchy Finger
01-16-2012, 16:57
Well, I tell ya. I really love my G19. That being said I still like the snubbie. It's only 5 shots, yes, but I carry a Mentos gum pak that will hold 15 rounds of .38 Sp. I use .38 Special +P JHPs. The .357's are just too brutal in that little gun. But it is nice to have that capacity.

I have not tried the pre loaders. I think they would get in the way.

The situations I face, mostly, gives me time to get prepared. How nice, Huh?

Anyway I mainly carry on a rural paper route running from about midnite to 5:30 am. There have been times when I wish I had it with me and I didn't, so now it is aways with me.

TN.Frank
01-21-2012, 09:03
If it comes down to being "No Gunned" because I've left a larger more bulky gun at home VS being "Under Gunned" because I actually will have a 642 Snub on my person then I'll take being Under Gunned any day of the week.

Rule #1 for a Gun Fight. Have a gun.

fowler
02-04-2012, 09:40
Its all you hope you never need. Utter reliable at contact distance.

Chup
03-29-2012, 06:54
I'll add some life to this Thread. I have been carrying Two Snubs daily for some time. I also carry Speed Loaders and Speed Strips. I have Ten rounds before I need to reload. Now, If someone thinks that is being under gunned, they need to get out of the Recliner, away from the Television, and learn about tactics and cover.

G19aps
03-29-2012, 08:45
I guess one could also say that anyone who feels totally "comfortable" with whatever it is they are carrying is falling into a dangerous rut.

barth
07-07-2012, 17:43
Having only five rounds does give me the Heebie-jeebies.
I mitigate that anxiety with a second Snubbie.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/thumbnail/photo01/43/c1/4fea5ab317a6__1322345794000.jpg?tw=0&th=720&s=true&rs=false

Glockworks
12-25-2012, 10:10
I have heard people say the snubbie is very convenient to carry but they felt undergunned while relying on it alone. When you consider your lifestyle-- where you go in your personal and business affairs, is this really an issue?

I make a point of staying out of situations and places I know have a credible and probable likelihood of a confrontation with criminals. Just about all of us have an area in town you want to stay out of. Having carried a gun both in patrol and as a detective for 30 years I don't feel undergunned with the J-Frame. I would have had to be deaf and blind not to get a "street sense" in all that time. I wasn't sitting behind a desk. The snubbie suits me just fine now that I am retired. I practice often with it and am fast and accurate with it. Fast in shooting and in reloading. Nothing unique there, just a matter of practice.

How many of you feel comfortable with just the snubbie when you go out and how many of you feel undergunned?
Presently, when I carry my snubbie, it is a Super Redhawk Alaskan (.44 Mag) in appendix carry. My body type looks like a (now a little pudgy) linebacker and I wear my shirts out. So no, I do not feel undergunned, and I carry at least one speed strip.

dbak
12-25-2012, 21:09
never carry it all the time

WT
12-29-2012, 17:37
I do not feel 'undergunned' carrying a snubby.

My friends who have had need to use them have no complaints regarding them.

Let's not forget that New York City's premier civilian gunfighter, Bernie Goetz, successfully protected himself against 4 people using a Model 60.

badge4436
05-21-2013, 11:16
I have read recently that many active duty cops in the north east carry a snubbie as their off duty weapon. Here in the West the semi auto is off duty king. Interesting when considering they can carry semi autos.

ranger1968
05-21-2013, 11:40
Yes;

Mas Ayoob wrote a good article about this very thing some years ago, titled "The Small Handgun Attitude" as part of a piece involving the film Catch me if you can ....

It's a very telling article, and it makes some good points.

He writes:

"(Director Steven) Spielberg finds a symbol to express the FBI's essential harmlessness: It's the snub-nose Colt Detective Special all the feds keep pulling, and Spielberg keeps noticing in close-up silhouettes: a tiny little gun that seems to reflect the innocence of a world where nobody really shot anybody very often. It's a gun a man would carry who really did not want to hurt anybody."

This is not to say that if you carry a more substantial firearm, you do want to hurt someone. Rather, Hunter seems to be commenting on an attitude we've all seen with armed citizens and law dogs alike. "I don't really need a gun, so I'll just carry this little thing to reassure myself, or to satisfy departmental regulations requiring me to be armed."

Spielberg's characters are by no means the first to be so armed on the screen. TV detectives from Jack Webb (in the earliest episodes of Dragnet., before he switched to a two-inch S&W Model 10) to the title character of Barney Miller carried Detective Specials. So did private eyes ranging from Mannix to the entire mainstay cast of 77 Sunset Strip.

Television's most famous FBI agent, Efrem Zimbalist, Jr., carried a two and a half inch Colt Diamondback, basically a highly polished Detective Special with adjustable sights.

Famous real-life lawmen who were partial to the Dick Special included master homicide detective Vein Geberth of NYPD
NYPD ; John Dineen, the Chicago copper who became president of the Fraternal Order of Police ; and Skeeter Skelton, whose first writing, a treatise on snubbies, was published in this magazine.

For most of its history, the FBI issued service revolvers, not snubbies, starting with four-inch Colt Official Police .38s. These were followed by Military & Police .38s with the same barrel length, a requirement reduced to three inches shortly before the agency adopted the Model 13 .357 Magnum, their last standard issue revolver before their switch to auto pistols.

The only true snub-nose .38 I'm aware of the Bureau actually issuing was the Smith & Wesson (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Smith+%26amp%3b+Wesson) J-frame Bodyguard five-shooter, a small quantity of which were purchased for some of the first female agents hired. While many agents had .38 snubs of their own they wore to work or off duty, most were likely to strap on a .357 Magnum when a tough arrest loomed.

By the mid-1980s, only the S&W brand was approved as a .38 snub, though the Bureau grandfathered Colts owned by older special agents. (Catch Me If You Can is set in the '60s, when the Detective Special would have been approved but not issued.)

But let's not nit-pick the particular icon chosen by brother Spielberg, a gun enthusiast himself. What's worth looking into is the mind-set that Hunter hit on. It's genuinely there.

The Vestigial (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vestigial) Gun

There was a time, not so long ago, when a great many police administrators wore a uniform that consisted of a white shirt and a snub-nose .38. Both accoutrements (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/accoutrements) seemed to make the statement, "I don't have to get out there and get dirty doing dangerous things anymore." The .38 snub in this application was a vestigial gun, more a badge of office than a true duty weapon.

This type of gun has all but disappeared as a primary weapon for on-duty law enforcement personnel. The little .38s remain popular for off-duty wear, however, and hugely popular as backup guns.

Surviving the Mind-Set

An attitude that says, "I'm not really going to need this gun" is a symptom of potentially lethal complacency. The person who carries a small-frame .38 wants lots of practice with it. These little whippers have a disproportionately nasty kick that demands proper technique, which includes a high-hand hold and a very firm grasp. Hand-fitting stocks are imperative. For pure control, it's tough to beat Pachmayr Compacs, which seem to enhance both practical accuracy and speed of fire.

When worn in a belt or shoulder holster, a three-inch barrel dramatically improves hit potential. So does an action hone. And practice with speedloaders; five shots (or even six with a Detective Special) is not a lot.

Which is why current new agents of the real world FBI are issued .40 caliber Glock semiautomatics, the fourteen-shot G23 or the sixteen-shot G22.

janice6
05-21-2013, 11:53
I'm comfortable with a 6 round .357 Magnum 2" snubby.

However this gun is only temporary while the 4" .357 Magnum is being modified. it's due this week. Then back to carry a power pistol.

I never load .38 Special (except for the Wife's 642). It's a good round, but as long as the Magnum shoots so comfortable, it's the choice.

LApm9
07-30-2013, 19:11
Concerning capacity, consider a few words spoken to me from a lawman of the '30s: "The first aimed shot wins."

I like five certain shots, even if the grip is short and the trigger pull is stiff. I would hate to be at the mercy of a manufacturer's change in bullet shape.

My little PM9 is nice too, but proving out a new load with 100 rounds hurts my wallet.

Gunboat1
07-31-2013, 04:16
Yes;

Mas Ayoob wrote a good article about this very thing some years ago, titled "The Small Handgun Attitude" as part of a piece involving the film Catch me if you can ....

It's a very telling article, and it makes some good points.

He writes:

"(Director Steven) Spielberg finds a symbol to express the FBI's essential harmlessness: It's the snub-nose Colt Detective Special all the feds keep pulling, and Spielberg keeps noticing in close-up silhouettes: a tiny little gun that seems to reflect the innocence of a world where nobody really shot anybody very often. It's a gun a man would carry who really did not want to hurt anybody."

This is not to say that if you carry a more substantial firearm, you do want to hurt someone. Rather, Hunter seems to be commenting on an attitude we've all seen with armed citizens and law dogs alike. "I don't really need a gun, so I'll just carry this little thing to reassure myself, or to satisfy departmental regulations requiring me to be armed."

Spielberg's characters are by no means the first to be so armed on the screen. TV detectives from Jack Webb (in the earliest episodes of Dragnet., before he switched to a two-inch S&W Model 10) to the title character of Barney Miller carried Detective Specials. So did private eyes ranging from Mannix to the entire mainstay cast of 77 Sunset Strip.

Television's most famous FBI agent, Efrem Zimbalist, Jr., carried a two and a half inch Colt Diamondback, basically a highly polished Detective Special with adjustable sights.

Famous real-life lawmen who were partial to the Dick Special included master homicide detective Vein Geberth of NYPD
NYPD ; John Dineen, the Chicago copper who became president of the Fraternal Order of Police ; and Skeeter Skelton, whose first writing, a treatise on snubbies, was published in this magazine.

For most of its history, the FBI issued service revolvers, not snubbies, starting with four-inch Colt Official Police .38s. These were followed by Military & Police .38s with the same barrel length, a requirement reduced to three inches shortly before the agency adopted the Model 13 .357 Magnum, their last standard issue revolver before their switch to auto pistols.

The only true snub-nose .38 I'm aware of the Bureau actually issuing was the Smith & Wesson (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Smith+%26amp%3b+Wesson) J-frame Bodyguard five-shooter, a small quantity of which were purchased for some of the first female agents hired. While many agents had .38 snubs of their own they wore to work or off duty, most were likely to strap on a .357 Magnum when a tough arrest loomed.

By the mid-1980s, only the S&W brand was approved as a .38 snub, though the Bureau grandfathered Colts owned by older special agents. (Catch Me If You Can is set in the '60s, when the Detective Special would have been approved but not issued.)

But let's not nit-pick the particular icon chosen by brother Spielberg, a gun enthusiast himself. What's worth looking into is the mind-set that Hunter hit on. It's genuinely there.

The Vestigial (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vestigial) Gun

There was a time, not so long ago, when a great many police administrators wore a uniform that consisted of a white shirt and a snub-nose .38. Both accoutrements (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/accoutrements) seemed to make the statement, "I don't have to get out there and get dirty doing dangerous things anymore." The .38 snub in this application was a vestigial gun, more a badge of office than a true duty weapon.

This type of gun has all but disappeared as a primary weapon for on-duty law enforcement personnel. The little .38s remain popular for off-duty wear, however, and hugely popular as backup guns.

Surviving the Mind-Set

An attitude that says, "I'm not really going to need this gun" is a symptom of potentially lethal complacency. The person who carries a small-frame .38 wants lots of practice with it. These little whippers have a disproportionately nasty kick that demands proper technique, which includes a high-hand hold and a very firm grasp. Hand-fitting stocks are imperative. For pure control, it's tough to beat Pachmayr Compacs, which seem to enhance both practical accuracy and speed of fire.

When worn in a belt or shoulder holster, a three-inch barrel dramatically improves hit potential. So does an action hone. And practice with speedloaders; five shots (or even six with a Detective Special) is not a lot.

Which is why current new agents of the real world FBI are issued .40 caliber Glock semiautomatics, the fourteen-shot G23 or the sixteen-shot G22.

Amen, and amen. QFT.

Lt Scott 14
12-26-2013, 20:47
Even though this thread goes back to 2008, lots of info here is still important to the CCW world.
My first experience with a snubbie began when my new wife was in a "forced" accident, late at night, on a dark road. A vehicle eased up and tapped her rear bumper, and 3 large men appeared at her passenger window. She put her car in gear, and drove to the closest Police Station, to make a report. She was nervous, scared, and alone.

The Police Officer on duty advised her that her actions probably saved her in the fact that 3 to one outnumbers anyone. They had previous reports of assault in that area, and patrolled it heavy.

Next morning we went to a local Gun shop, and purchased 2 handguns. Beretta 25 auto, and M36 S&W 38 spec.

We applied for LTCHs, and signed up for a Safety/Handgun course. We both fired both guns, and afterwords decided the 25 ACP would be traded for a 4in 38 spec. We did and she carried the snubbie for years, I carried the M10 S&W.

I entered Law Enforcement, and the M36 rode on my ankle for several years, backing up the M10. Wifey now owned a M38 Bodyguard, which we never felt undearmed.
We kept the pair of snubs together for a long time, and they shared speedloaders, holsters, and grips.

In 1994, my home was broken into, my snubs both stolen, and the Bodyguard was recovered in 2001. M36 never showed up. Traded the "beat to death" Bodyguard for a 442 in a "Frosted" Nickel, and still carry the 442. Fine weapons all.

For a short time also owned a Ruger SP 101, 357 mag, a little heavier, but a great shooter. Sold off for a G19, still owned and carried daily.

You do need to practice shooting and in my opinion, 7 yds is plenty to practice. Law Enforcement pushes much longer distance, and situations differ greatly from CCW.
It can become a "milk and bread" trip that you are needing the firepower.
Good luck, carry 2 if you can. Cheat, win, go home.

SDGlock23
12-27-2013, 07:51
Having owned a several of them over the years I never felt they weren't up to the task, but with that said I just think there are better options today. There are 7 shot 9mm's an 6 shot .40's out there that take up less room in the pocket than a .38/.357 snubbie and pack more punch, not to mention reloads (magazines) are easier to carry and allow for considerably faster reloads as well.