A few contention points with Mr. Glock's letter in the 2008 Glock Mag

[gsarg]

I've been a Glock shooter for around 15 years. I wished Glock would get back in the business of being the innovative company that they used to be, instead of falling further and further behind. Sure, they've got tons of police agencies and civilians that shoot their guns (I'm one of them). However, they have clearly been sitting idle for the last several years. No truly new products in years (I don't count the G21SF or G30SF, and it's hard for me to count the GAP models since they didn't deliver what they promised (see #3 below)). I'm sure the Koolaid drinkers will say "it's already perfection" blah, blah, blah. I just wish that Glock was interested in providing new and innovative products.

A few issues that I had with the "Annual Message from the Founder" in the 2008 Annual:
1. (Referencing the G30SF) - "While the introduction of a new pistol always creates excitement..." - The G30 SF is not a new model. It is a revision to an old product that has been criticized for having too large of a grip. You made the grip somewhat smaller, which is good, but you still missed the mark by not making the grip adaptable to different hand sizes (see #2 below)

2. "With sizes to meet every size hand" - No, not really. Not until Glock gets on board and makes changeable backstraps like everyone else seems to be doing these days

3. (Referencing the 45 G.A.P. being adopted by two new agencies) - "Clearly this indicates that this caliber is becoming Law Enforcement cartridge of choice." - where do I start with this one. The 45 G.A.P. was an experiment that had good intentions, but has failed. Here's why: the original design was meant to be a .45 gun that had the frame AND slide size the same/similar to the G17. The original photos showed that this was how the GAP models were going to be. Since they weren't able to accomplish their goal, they put a G21 slide (necked down) on a G17 frame. The whole project should have been scrapped. I believe this one comes down to ego; it's got Glock's name on it
3a - Please don't dedicate about half of the entire magazine pushing the GAP guns; it's clear you're trying to make them appear to be more popular than they truly are.

4. Where is the product that you claimed several years ago would "revolutionize" the firearm industry? Was that the carbine (sorry kittens), or perhaps the modular pistol (see SIG P250), or what? We're still waiting to see that revolutionary product

[Dean]

A friend wrote:
I've been a Glock shooter for around 15 years. I wished Glock would get back in the business of being the innovative company that they used to be, instead of falling further and further behind. Sure, they've got tons of police agencies and civilians that shoot their guns (I'm one of them). However, they have clearly been sitting idle for the last several years. No truly new products in years. I just wish that Glock was interested in providing new and innovative products.
It's a killing machine. It kills. Put Crimson Trace lasergrips on it. There. You have a laser sighted killing machine.

A few issues that I had with the "Annual Message from the Founder" in the 2008 Annual: 1. (Referencing the G30SF) - "While the introduction of a new pistol always creates excitement..." - The G30 SF is not a new model. It is a revision to an old product that has been criticized for having too large of a grip. You made the grip somewhat smaller, which is good, but you still missed the mark by not making the grip adaptable to different hand sizes.
It's new to US. We don't want a bunch of junk coming apart off our pistols. Everybody knows the G30 is the top concealed carry gun on the street. Everybody knows the G23 is right up there a close second. Everybody knows the G19 is the best 9mm sidearm in the world.

2. "With sizes to meet every size hand" - No, not really. Not until Glock gets on board and makes changeable backstraps like everyone else seems to be doing these days.
Glock is not "Everyone." The other companies make nickel plated sissy pistols.
If you want one of those, go to the Italians or the Swiss.

3. (Referencing the 45 G.A.P. being adopted by two new agencies) - "Clearly this indicates that this caliber is becoming Law Enforcement cartridge of choice." - where do I start with this one. The 45 G.A.P. was an experiment that had good intentions, but has failed. Here's why: the original design was meant to be a .45 gun that had the frame AND slide size the same/similar to the G17. The original photos showed that this was how the GAP models were going to be. Since they weren't able to accomplish their goal, they put a G21 slide (necked down) on a G17 frame. The whole project should have been scrapped. I believe this one comes down to ego; it's got Glock's name on it
3a - Please don't dedicate about half of the entire magazine pushing the GAP guns; it's clear you're trying to make them appear to be more popular than they truly are.
You asked for "new" and "innovative." A new cartridge is that. Don't like it? Don't carry it.

4. Where is the product that you claimed several years ago would "revolutionize" the firearm industry? Was that the carbine (sorry kittens), or perhaps the modular pistol (see SIG P250), or what? We're still waiting to see that revolutionary product.
I don't need any new guns other than Glocks latest models. I don't want any modular pistols. I want a 100 percent reliable, death dealing killing machine that rides comfortable on my hip and never jams, and that has ONE singular sensation trigger pull. That's why my primary defensive pistol is a forty caliber Glock 23 with Crimson Trace lasergrips.

Because for my purposes, that's the best firearm there is. :cool:

[RAH]

As long as Mr Gaston Glock runs his company don't expect major design changes. They can barely keep up with demand so why mess with a good thing?:embarassed:

[mickdundie]

Dean QUOTE:Glock is not "Everyone." The other companies make nickel plated sissy pistols.
If you want one of those, go to the Italians or the Swiss.

Just exactly which "Italian" pistol are you calling a sissy pistol?:dunno:

[BlenderWizard]

I think the Italians make pretty good pistols. I own a Tanfoglio. Awesome 9mm.

I hear those new fangled Berettas and Benellis are pretty good, too.

[DonGlock26]

Glock is covering the .45 bases with the SF pistols and the GAP. I like the G-21SF quite a bit.

[mickdundie]

I think the Italians make pretty good pistols. I own a Tanfoglio. Awesome 9mm.

I hear those new fangled Berettas and Benellis are pretty good, too.

+1
The make good sunglasses and sports cars too!

[anyglock]

i'm with gsarg about the GAP pistol that glock brought to market. if a G36 can have the slide configuration it does, (pretty much identical to a G19 and handle the .45 ACP), then Mr. glock missed the boat by inflating the slide dimensions on the GAP caliber pistols. all the LEO's wanting .45 performance were expecting to just be able to pull their G17 out of the holster and shove in a G37...same holsters and mag holders, etc.

i personally think if glock would just build off a G36 and market a single stack service size pistol in .45ACP, the factory could not keep up with the demand.

[GlocksNBagels]

Most Austrians don't even know what a "Glock" is. Fact. Austrians would be shocked to learn the headquarters are located in their country. I imagine Gaston does not want to draw any unwanted attention from his fellow countrymen. Glock is not Apple. It's not in their best interest to unveil a new iPod every year. They do one thing very well and they don't need to announce it to the world by topping themselves every year. The quality sells the product. I would imagine there would be a LOT of negative press in Europe if Glock started marketing to the American consumer's insatiable need for the next and best.... Simply put, "it wouldn't look good". To their credit.

[AustinTx]

In the early 1980's Glock did the following:
gsarg
quote
"Where is the product that you claimed several years ago would "revolutionize" the firearm industry? "
End quote


Produced the very product you are asking for, the G17 and since then an adequate number of calibers and sizes. Any Glock, you pick up is revolutionary.

[GlocksNBagels]

In the early 1980's Glock did the following:
gsarg
quote
"Where is the product that you claimed several years ago would "revolutionize" the firearm industry? "
End quote


Produced the very product you are asking for, the G17 and since then an adequate number of calibers and sizes. Any Glock, you pick up is revolutionary.

Well said.

[gsarg]

In the early 1980's Glock did the following:
gsarg
quote
"Where is the product that you claimed several years ago would "revolutionize" the firearm industry? "
End quote


Produced the very product you are asking for, the G17 and since then an adequate number of calibers and sizes. Any Glock, you pick up is revolutionary.
You obviously have no idea as to what I'm referencing.

[AustinTx]

My wife tells me the same thing.

[omega48038]

Glocks last innovation was the G17.

[mitchshrader]

the glock 24 don't suck much with an aftermarket barrel. i mean, it ain't a CZ Tactical but it points at least.

no use to diss glocks cause guys like lightweight guns for duty carry, it's sensible. hell, they don't break, they are a fair price, they work. not bad guns, do the job they are meant to. i never understood fanboyz though. 1911's ain't all that and a bag of chips either.

i reckon that most of em never had a good coon hound to love and sublimate it into their guns and kids and stuff..

[WellArmedSheep]

It works. There's no point in changing it if it works. What would you like them to do?

[Quail Fat]

I keep clawing my way back to "Ye Olde Glock 19s"...

damn near perfect pistol

I don't give a "jack squat poodle twot" about the other GLocks..

but it would be nice if Glock did revamp their entire line with fancy new angles and interchangeable backstraps.

[Quail Fat]

It works. There's no point in changing it if it works. What would you like them to do?

Make a Glock 19 with a colorless frame.

[Quail Fat]

Make a Glock 19 with a colorless frame.


Didn't Glock's patent run out a couple of years ago?

If I had the capital, I'd make clear Glock frames. They would prolly cost a whopping $15 to make and I could sell them for $150 or so..

[NYC Drew]

<<< Not dissatisfied with my Glocks.

<<< Don't need the "hype" every few years.

<<< All of my Glocks function just fine.


'Drew

[LSP972]

You obviously have no idea as to what I'm referencing.

Some of us do.

But my question to you is... why worry about it?

Getting annoyed with Glock because they are basically sitting on their heels/laurels is sorta like getting pissed at GM because they didn't change the Corvette for three years running.

I'm with Quail Fat; I've tried others, but keep coming back to the G19 for a carry/"go to" piece. To me, that's the Glock's reason for existing. There are MANY other pistols out there more suitable for playing/plinking/target use. I have some of them... ;)

So, why I understand your statements, I don't understand why you're obviously upset about the situation. Yeah, Gaston Glock is an incredible egomaniac. I think Bill Gates is a putz, too... but I have some of his stuff as well.:supergrin:

.

[glocktecher]

"death dealing killing machine":wow:

Wow. Just walk out of the house and deal out some death with that Glock.

Aren't the antis just salivating when pro 2nd amendment folks have to deal with this?

[USMC06]

When it appears that most people and most agencies within our borders (and many outside our borders) who make a living with a firearm, still prefer a particular firearm, are switching to a particular firearm in greater numbers than switching away, ... and when manufacturers are still copying a particular firearm or trying hard to knock it off its perch, I say not much change or innovation may be needed. Can it be made better to accommodate more people? Yes.

I know that is a long and run-on sentence, but I'm taking literary license.

[Colorado4Wheel]

If the Glock fit's your hand it's a great pistol. Truth is it does not fit everyone's hands. It's easy for people to say it's "perfect so leave it alone" but when you leave out 20%+ (just a guess) of the population out of that "Perfection", well that leaves a lot to be desired. I know in my house my wife does not fit the gun very well at all. Glock needs to make a Standard/Compact and Subcompact with a single stack. At minimum they need to transition the entire line to a interchangeable backstrap models over the next several years. If S&W and others can make a gun to fit my wifes hands so should Glock. Why should we so easily dismiss the needs of those with smaller hands? Are they not Glock Worthy. It's crazy. Glock should take a good look at the Kahr line and copy it using the Glock Design. I personally would prefer a slightly bigger back strap on my G34 if it was available. Glock is acting a little like the Domestic Car Manufactures of the 60's. Huge market share, lack of innovation and particularly foresight. At least Glock makes a good product.

[hit21]

Most Austrians don't even know what a "Glock" is. Fact. Austrians would be shocked to learn the headquarters are located in their country. I imagine Gaston does not want to draw any unwanted attention from his fellow countrymen. Glock is not Apple. It's not in their best interest to unveil a new iPod every year. They do one thing very well and they don't need to announce it to the world by topping themselves every year. The quality sells the product. I would imagine there would be a LOT of negative press in Europe if Glock started marketing to the American consumer's insatiable need for the next and best.... Simply put, "it wouldn't look good". To their credit.

Perfectly wrong, old chap.
Everyone who has served in the Austrian Armed Forces has made acquaintance with the Glock 17, which is standard equipment of the Army since the 80´s as well as for Law enforcement.

In former years you could simply walk into the plant to get get your needed spare parts and even pistols for LEO´s and servicemen, which has, alas, been stopped recently.
Fetched my model 21 right there which is guarding our bedroom since.

Best greetings from old Glockland,

hit21

[missile_man]

Didn't Glock's patent run out a couple of years ago?

If I had the capital, I'd make clear Glock frames. They would prolly cost a whopping $15 to make and I could sell them for $150 or so..

Not to inject too much reality, but the nylon 6/6 polymer used in a Glock does not come in "clear." The clearest you could get is a translucent white, and unless you put a protective (clear?) coating on it, you would find that uncolored nylon can become discolored (yellowed) and will show up scratches easily (dirt becoming embedded in the scratches, hard to get out, etc.).

[Macintosh#1]

They are trying to get people to buy them.

[QUOTE=gsarg;9743288]
3a - Please don't dedicate about half of the entire magazine pushing the GAP guns; it's clear you're trying to make them appear to be more popular than they truly are./QUOTE]

[Macintosh#1]

uh no the GAP doesn't fit alot of hsotlers becaue of the wider slide.

i'm with gsarg about the GAP pistol that glock brought to market. if a G36 can have the slide configuration it does, (pretty much identical to a G19 and handle the .45 ACP), then Mr. glock missed the boat by inflating the slide dimensions on the GAP caliber pistols. all the LEO's wanting .45 performance were expecting to just be able to pull their G17 out of the holster and shove in a G37...same holsters and mag holders, etc.

i personally think if glock would just build off a G36 and market a single stack service size pistol in .45ACP, the factory could not keep up with the demand.

[Macintosh#1]

Love the 21SF and will get a 30SF as soon as they are available.

Glock is covering the .45 bases with the SF pistols and the GAP. I like the G-21SF quite a bit.

[Macintosh#1]

Who is "us"? Who is "everyone"?
I don't know of a single grip adjustable pistol that has issues with the grip coming off.
What flavor is that kool aid you are drinking?

"It's new to US. We don't want a bunch of junk coming apart off our pistols. Everybody knows the G30 is the top concealed carry gun on the street. Everybody knows the G23 is right up there a close second. Everybody knows the G19 is the best 9mm sidearm in the world. "

Allrighty then...that makes no sense.

"The other companies make nickel plated sissy pistols.
If you want one of those, go to the Italians or the Swiss."

I think the point is instead of wasting resources on that they could be delivering something their customers asked for.

"You asked for "new" and "innovative." A new cartridge is that. Don't like it? Don't carry it."

Sight alignment. :embarassed:

"That's why my primary defensive pistol is a forty caliber Glock 23 with Crimson Trace lasergrips."

So "we" and "us" is actually you. I see.

"Because for my purposes, that's the best firearm there is."

Yes Glock is backordered and can't make pistols fast enough. Thats great. I love Glocks. Love 'em. But like any other business you have to innovate continuously. All those XD and M&P sales are at the expense of Glock sales. From what I have seen most of the LEO's buying M&P's are dumping Glocks in favor of M&P. The SF models are a direct reaction to the .45 XD IMHO. Let's also not forget that Glock failed early in the DHS trials and they bought Sig and HK instead.

[rich52us]

Some of us do.

But my question to you is... why worry about it?

Getting annoyed with Glock because they are basically sitting on their heels/laurels is sorta like getting pissed at GM because they didn't change the Corvette for three years running.

I'm with Quail Fat; I've tried others, but keep coming back to the G19 for a carry/"go to" piece. To me, that's the Glock's reason for existing. There are MANY other pistols out there more suitable for playing/plinking/target use. I have some of them... ;)

So, why I understand your statements, I don't understand why you're obviously upset about the situation. Yeah, Gaston Glock is an incredible egomaniac. I think Bill Gates is a putz, too... but I have some of his stuff as well.:supergrin:

.

+1. Glock makes the best SD handguns for me. I can find a size and cal. I like to fit any SD situation appropriate for a hand gun. I don't care if they come out with anything newer or more inovative. The other manufacturers haven't caught up yet for a SD pistol as far as I'm concerned.:supergrin:

The message in the annual is sales hype. Take it for what it is, and keep shooting and carrying your Glocks.

[G33]

Glocks are fine.
They are not the end-all.

Lot of other neat and great guns out there.
Sig 250 for one.
Smith M&P for another.
And every Smith revo!
:tongueout:
:supergrin:

[Cambo]

I am in complete agreement with the thread starter. I thought exactly the same things when I read the magazine yesterday. 3 police agencies adopting the .45 GAP does not make it the end all gun/caliber. In fact, the magazine seemed to be at war with itself, some articles going for the G37 and some going for the G21sf. Personally, if I were a cop, I would be choosing capacity(G21sf). The G30sf is hardly an innovation, it should have come out with the 21sf. This time next year it will be the G20sf and in 2010 it will be the G29sf(don't think they won't do this). Glock will keep making small itty bitty changes to their guns and releasing them with fanfare and self-congratulation. Or maybe they'll waste time creating another new caliber that no gun/sporting good stores will carry that will cost $20.00 + a box. I do consider Glocks to be the ultimate gun, it is their long term business plan that sucks big time.

[Quail Fat]

Glock would sell a ton of "colorless" Glocks.

All they need to do is use colorless polymer pellets instead of black ones in their moulding process.

http://www.sportshooter.de/upload/443b.jpg

This H&K magazine is "clear"..or "colorless"

You would be able to see if it needed cleaning simply by glancing at it.

[9jeeps]

GLOCK is GLOCK. One of the most copied handguns in the world since the 1911. "Nuff said!":whistling:

[Kentucky_Guy]

I like Glock....

I love my G17, but my other guns are just as good, even better in some ways....

i love my Sig, Beretta and Srpingfield XD too...each one has attributes the others dont have..

Glock is not the "end all" gun....at least for me its not

[danielsand]

Interesting thread. Made me think.

As a man who spent half of his life on European side of the water, and another half on this side, I might be able to illuminate another angle that some of you didn't consider.

There are two things that I collect. Wrist watches, and guns. Rolex being a watch of my choice, and Glock a handgun of my choice. After studying and following both brands for more than two decades, I find MANY similarities between them. Holding their value, and in some cases appreciating, is just one of them.

One similarity pertaining to this thread is the pace of change (or lack of it!). To understand how these companies (and many other European companies) look on change, one needs to spend more than just a vacation in Europe.

Different culture, different customs and definitely, different business practices. Change is not perceived as a necessarily a "good thing"! Tradition is everything. And to build "tradition" takes a long time!

One example,....they build houses and buildings to last several centuries (and they do last that long!), and they don't bulldoze them down to build new every "few" years! I don't have to remind any of you on ever changing skyline of our cities, do I?

Another example,....average US consumer buys a new car every 2,5 years,....Europeans every 10 years on average! Average American moves his household five times in his lifetime, average Europeans live three generations under the same roof.

Another thing,....a long resume with many different jobs and skills is considered an asset in the US,....in Europe, if you work for one company for 40 years shows your value!

Changes that (for example) Rolex S.A, is introducing to their product line, are often referred as coming at the "glacial" speed. And the Swiss consider this to be a good thing. Both companies make a "bulletproof" product, both are completely cold, Teutonic, unemotional in design, and both are highly regarded in their respective circles.

So the lack of innovation when it comes to Glock, is completely in tune with their owner's heritage, culture and customs. Do not expect a constant change coming from that continent. They are VERY rooted in their traditions, and for most part, I consider it to be a "good thing".

Sorry about the long post and lecturing.

[Mamaluke]

I like Glock....

I love my G17, but my other guns are just as good, even better in some ways....

i love my Sig, Beretta and Srpingfield XD too...each one has attributes the others dont have..

Glock is not the "end all" gun....at least for me its not

I can write volumes on why Glock is better than every make you reference above...

[crankbait11]

Your defenition of better is your opinion.Not everyone elses.

[Glock_172630]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Colorado4Wheel]

Most of you guys totally ignore that Glock needs to make a gun that works for different hand sizes. That is with out a doubt the biggest issue with the Glock. Guns sold only in one hand size are going to be at a HUGE disadvantage in the future. Glock needs to get moving with that issue to remain competitive for LEO and other agencies. The time is coming where that will be a requirement.

[SDGlock23]

Aside from coming out with longslide versions of current models, I don't see glock offering anything really "new" to the market, which is okay by me. On the other hand, I hear S&W is broadening their M&P pistol lineup this year, including 14rd mags for us M&P 45 users.

[DRT]

I hear that fully-supported chambers are new for 2008, though Glock won't admit it.

Sorry, just kidding.

[Kentucky_Guy]

I can write volumes on why Glock is better than every make you reference above...


please give me just a few points on each as to why Glock is "better"??????

[Kentucky_Guy]

Your defenition of better is your opinion.Not everyone elses.

i guess thats why opinions are like, you know the word,.....everyones got one...:tongueout:

[drod]

To each, his own. Buy and carry what fits your hands, your needs and your likes.

[cyrsequipment]

Most of you guys totally ignore that Glock needs to make a gun that works for different hand sizes. That is with out a doubt the biggest issue with the Glock. Guns sold only in one hand size are going to be at a HUGE disadvantage in the future. Glock needs to get moving with that issue to remain competitive for LEO and other agencies. The time is coming where that will be a requirement.

Glock doesn't need to do anything of the sort, their sales are just fine, their product is fine as well.

Someone stated earlier that the Glocks ONLY fit 80% of the population, that is pretty darn good. Fine one other product that works for 80% of the population... besides socks you ain't gonna find it.

I'm an instructor and I have NEVER found anyone who a Glock does not fit (save the 20,21,29 and 30... but they don't count). The grip is fine, capacity is great, accuracy is much more then most people can utilize, and reliability is superb.

Glock seems to be doing pretty well without getting "business advice" from people who only have a narrow view.

[Kentucky_Guy]

Glocks are fine.
They are not the end-all.

Lot of other neat and great guns out there.
Sig 250 for one.
Smith M&P for another.
And every Smith revo!
:tongueout:
:supergrin:


+1, thats just what i said:wavey:

[fofinger]

It would be just plain dumb to change a weapon that is accurate, doesn't misfire, is cheap and easy to repair if it ever needs repair, stands up better than any other gun to any type of environments and now has models incorporating all the most popular calibers.... I guess what you are wishing is that Gaston shouldn't have made his first Glock so damned good so that he could have made little changes every year until he got it up to the efficiency of his original gun.....but think about it...if he had done that, the Austrian army would never have bought the gun and we would have never heard of it......

[Mamaluke]

i guess thats why opinions are like, you know the word,.....everyones got one...:tongueout:

tongueout:

[Mamaluke]

It would be just plain dumb to change a weapon that is accurate, doesn't misfire, is cheap and easy to repair if it ever needs repair, stands up better than any other gun to any type of environments and now has models incorporating all the most popular calibers.... I guess what you are wishing is that Gaston shouldn't have made his first Glock so damned good so that he could have made little changes every year until he got it up to the efficiency of his original gun.....but think about it...if he had done that, the Austrian army would never have bought the gun and we would have never heard of it......

ADD TO THAT;

ease of field/detail stripping
availability of parts
ease of replacing parts
no need to send the gun back to have a part replaced
tennifer finish
low bore axis (doesn't feel like a double decker bus)
consistent first to last shot
no decocker/safety
reliable, reliable, reliable
great customer service

[Mamaluke]

i guess thats why opinions are like, you know the word,.....everyones got one...:tongueout:

You are proving your own contention...using yourtself as an example...good for you.

[fofinger]

I guess they could come out with a box lined with red felt.....

[Mamaluke]

I guess they could come out with a box lined with red felt.....

...or at least 12 versions of the same handgun...in different finishes...Elite 2 tone, Equinox, 2 tone, Elite, Elite stainless, tactical, COPS, Crimson trace, SAS, SCT, stainless, Navy, Blackwater...did I miss any?

[omega48038]

ADD TO THAT;

1. ease of field/detail stripping
2. availability of parts
3. ease of replacing parts
4. no need to send the gun back to have a part replaced
5. tennifer finish
6. low bore axis (doesn't feel like a double decker bus)
7. consistent first to last shot
8. no decocker/safety
9. reliable, reliable, reliable
10. great customer service

Advantages?

1. No easier to field strip than anything else. You only need to detail strip maybe once a year, no real advantage there.
2. A whole industry has grown out of improving the "perfect" pistol. Finding replacement parts for other guns isn't rocket science.
3. I can change out any part on any of my guns.
4. If there's something I can't handle, my local gunsmith can.
5. I'll give you this one, it's a great metal treatment, but no different than melanite or others.
6. Overrated buzz phrase. My USP, with it's very high bore axis, doesn't recoil or flip any more than my GLOCK.
7. Many prefer DA/SA, that doesn't make it better than striker fired, just different.
8. I don't see the comparison, a Glock couldn't have a decocker. On a hammer fired pistol, it's nice to have. As far as manual safety, some have it as an option (USP for one), some don't, like a SIG. Again not better or worse, only different.
9. Any high quality modern pistol = reliable, reliable, reliable. No edge there.
10. Yeah, they give you stickers and keychains.

11. Lesser fit, finish and overall quality. Someone here earlier said it all: When I slam the slide shut on my SIG, it sounds like a bank vault. When I slam the slide shut on my Glock, it sounds like a screen door.

I'm far from a GLOCK hater, but I appreciate them for what they are, a good cheap gun. There's better and/or nicer out there.

...or at least 12 versions of the same handgun...in different finishes...Elite 2 tone, Equinox, 2 tone, Elite, Elite stainless, tactical, COPS, Crimson trace, SAS, SCT, stainless, Navy, Blackwater...did I miss any?

Something to offer many tastes, they don't force you into a take it or leave it, rubber stamped pistol.

[USMC06]

Interesting thread. Made me think.

As a man who spent half of his life on European side of the water, and another half on this side, I might be able to illuminate another angle that some of you didn't consider.

There are two things that I collect. Wrist watches, and guns. Rolex being a watch of my choice, and Glock a handgun of my choice. After studying and following both brands for more than two decades, I find MANY similarities between them. Holding their value, and in some cases appreciating, is just one of them.

One similarity pertaining to this thread is the pace of change (or lack of it!). To understand how these companies (and many other European companies) look on change, one needs to spend more than just a vacation in Europe.

Different culture, different customs and definitely, different business practices. Change is not perceived as a necessarily a "good thing"! Tradition is everything. And to build "tradition" takes a long time!

One example,....they build houses and buildings to last several centuries (and they do last that long!), and they don't bulldoze them down to build new every "few" years! I don't have to remind any of you on ever changing skyline of our cities, do I?

Another example,....average US consumer buys a new car every 2,5 years,....Europeans every 10 years on average! Average American moves his household five times in his lifetime, average Europeans live three generations under the same roof.

Another thing,....a long resume with many different jobs and skills is considered an asset in the US,....in Europe, if you work for one company for 40 years shows your value!

Changes that (for example) Rolex S.A, is introducing to their product line, are often referred as coming at the "glacial" speed. And the Swiss consider this to be a good thing. Both companies make a "bulletproof" product, both are completely cold, Teutonic, unemotional in design, and both are highly regarded in their respective circles.

So the lack of innovation when it comes to Glock, is completely in tune with their owner's heritage, culture and customs. Do not expect a constant change coming from that continent. They are VERY rooted in their traditions, and for most part, I consider it to be a "good thing".

Sorry about the long post and lecturing.

Excellent educational post on perspective. Thanks!

[Kentucky_Guy]

...or at least 12 versions of the same handgun...in different finishes...Elite 2 tone, Equinox, 2 tone, Elite, Elite stainless, tactical, COPS, Crimson trace, SAS, SCT, stainless, Navy, Blackwater...did I miss any?

so whats wrong with Sig doing that????

my Sig 226 is a GREAT gun, along with my Glock 17

lets see: how many versions of the same gun does Glock have????

Glock 17,18,19,20,21,22,23,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39........

i KNOW i missed one somewhere...LOL LOL.....

[dhoomonyou]

Personally I dont want a pistol that has a "REMOVABLE" backstrap.

One more item to come loose, fail, get lost.

Or the idiot that designed it as a "SAFETY"

I want my GLOCK to be the true "point and shoot" device.

just my 2 cents.

[GRR]

I've been a Glock shooter for around 15 years. I wished Glock would get back in the business of being the innovative company that they used to be, instead of falling further and further behind. Sure, they've got tons of police agencies and civilians that shoot their guns (I'm one of them). However, they have clearly been sitting idle for the last several years. No truly new products in years (I don't count the G21SF or G30SF, and it's hard for me to count the GAP models since they didn't deliver what they promised (see #3 below)). I'm sure the Koolaid drinkers will say "it's already perfection" blah, blah, blah. I just wish that Glock was interested in providing new and innovative products.

A few issues that I had with the "Annual Message from the Founder" in the 2008 Annual:
1. (Referencing the G30SF) - "While the introduction of a new pistol always creates excitement..." - The G30 SF is not a new model. It is a revision to an old product that has been criticized for having too large of a grip. You made the grip somewhat smaller, which is good, but you still missed the mark by not making the grip adaptable to different hand sizes (see #2 below)

2. "With sizes to meet every size hand" - No, not really. Not until Glock gets on board and makes changeable backstraps like everyone else seems to be doing these days

3. (Referencing the 45 G.A.P. being adopted by two new agencies) - "Clearly this indicates that this caliber is becoming Law Enforcement cartridge of choice." - where do I start with this one. The 45 G.A.P. was an experiment that had good intentions, but has failed. Here's why: the original design was meant to be a .45 gun that had the frame AND slide size the same/similar to the G17. The original photos showed that this was how the GAP models were going to be. Since they weren't able to accomplish their goal, they put a G21 slide (necked down) on a G17 frame. The whole project should have been scrapped. I believe this one comes down to ego; it's got Glock's name on it
3a - Please don't dedicate about half of the entire magazine pushing the GAP guns; it's clear you're trying to make them appear to be more popular than they truly are.

4. Where is the product that you claimed several years ago would "revolutionize" the firearm industry? Was that the carbine (sorry kittens), or perhaps the modular pistol (see SIG P250), or what? We're still waiting to see that revolutionary product

Sounds like you're bored with Glock. Find something else.

[Mamaluke]

so whats wrong with Sig doing that????

my Sig 226 is a GREAT gun, along with my Glock 17

lets see: how many versions of the same gun does Glock have????

Glock 17,18,19,20,21,22,23,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39........

i KNOW i missed one somewhere...LOL LOL.....

Glock makes full size, compact and subcompact handguns...I was referring to different variations of the same model.

[schapman43]

So out of those who constantly harp on the .45 GAP how many have actually fired one? People love to bash it but they really have no clue what it is.

Ammo at Ammoman.com is running the same price as .45acp. 10% of the law enforcement community is the US has adopted the caliber. I'd say it has a lot going for it. Many said that .40 S&W wouldn't make it but look at where it is now.

[engineer88]

Wow, so much here for me to disagree with. First of all Glock is not a "cheap" pistol. Taurus yes, Glock no. Taurus = $300.00, Glock = $500.00 so I would say $300 is cheap. I am not a rich guy. For that point High Point = $150.00.

I also disagree with the sentiment that they have to keep making super new innovations or what I would call trying to re-invent the wheel. Take a look at S&W. Great company, been around a long time. Their revolvers are tried and true. Everyone has one or wants one. Why? Because it has a loaded chamber indicator? Or some other gimmick? No, because your grandpa had one, you shot it with him, your grandpa, his dad and your Dad's revolver probably still work. Their have been minor innovations, but no sweeping changes are necessary. The design is fine as is, it is timeless. If you disagree, notice they have released a "Classic" line. That would not sell if reliability (see: same old whatever) did not sell.

Laying the Koolaid and Fanboi smack is hilarious to me coming from someone who seems to be constantly wanting more/bigger/better/faster. THAT is Koolaid. That is this new generation that wants the moon and to not have to work to get it.

I hope you realize the error of your ways. I think all of the big Gun Brands out there make excellent stuff. They each have products that fill a niche for a need. If you NEED a back strap changing-outter gun, then by all means buy that. For me, I can change my grip a bit for whatever gun I pick up and make it work. Loaded indicator is a waste because I always treat a gun as though it is loaded. Most of the other fancy stuff does nothing for me, so Glock fits me. Good luck with whatever weapon you choose to fit your needs. I am sure there is one out there. Ain't life Grand!?!

[kim1911]

Glock covers more ground than many gun makers out there. Almost every time you see the newest "perfect packin' pistol", it comes in 9mm, .40 S&W, and maybe .357 SIG. Then came the military contract that the manufacturers were chasing with their .45 ACPs. Oops, no contract, but now the market is awash in .45s. Smith & Wesson, H&K, Sig Sauer, F&N, Ruger, and Taurus have been trying to grab a piece of that .45 ACP market. But this whole time, quietly in the background, Glock has been selling .380's (not in the U.S., but elsewhere), 9mm's, 40 S&W's, 10mm's, .357 SIG's, .45 ACP's and now .45 GAP's. Not only do they offer more caliber choices, they offer multiple frame sizes for all their pistols except for the G36! The Beretta Storm comes in what? Two calibers? Woo-hoo! Does the Sig line up have a 10mm? Nuff said? Thought so.

[H&K .45 AUTO]

Interesting thread. Made me think.

As a man who spent half of his life on European side of the water, and another half on this side, I might be able to illuminate another angle that some of you didn't consider.

There are two things that I collect. Wrist watches, and guns. Rolex being a watch of my choice, and Glock a handgun of my choice. After studying and following both brands for more than two decades, I find MANY similarities between them. Holding their value, and in some cases appreciating, is just one of them.

One similarity pertaining to this thread is the pace of change (or lack of it!). To understand how these companies (and many other European companies) look on change, one needs to spend more than just a vacation in Europe.

Different culture, different customs and definitely, different business practices. Change is not perceived as a necessarily a "good thing"! Tradition is everything. And to build "tradition" takes a long time!

One example,....they build houses and buildings to last several centuries (and they do last that long!), and they don't bulldoze them down to build new every "few" years! I don't have to remind any of you on ever changing skyline of our cities, do I?

Another example,....average US consumer buys a new car every 2,5 years,....Europeans every 10 years on average! Average American moves his household five times in his lifetime, average Europeans live three generations under the same roof.

Another thing,....a long resume with many different jobs and skills is considered an asset in the US,....in Europe, if you work for one company for 40 years shows your value!

Changes that (for example) Rolex S.A, is introducing to their product line, are often referred as coming at the "glacial" speed. And the Swiss consider this to be a good thing. Both companies make a "bulletproof" product, both are completely cold, Teutonic, unemotional in design, and both are highly regarded in their respective circles.

So the lack of innovation when it comes to Glock, is completely in tune with their owner's heritage, culture and customs. Do not expect a constant change coming from that continent. They are VERY rooted in their traditions, and for most part, I consider it to be a "good thing".

Sorry about the long post and lecturing.

I'd definately have to say that this is one of the most well-thought-out and informative posts I've read on any of the gun boards in a while. Excellent posting, man.

Sometimes it does help to have a better understanding of the traditions and customs that guide the decision making process of other individuals. In this case... I'd say that I agree with both sides of the argument.

While I agree that GLOCK could do a better job of trying to come up with entirely new products like many other companies, I also agree that they have an absolute classic in their current design so why mess with it?

I own handguns made by practically every major manufacturer in the business and I carry them both professionally as a deputy sheriff, and privately as an armed citizen. My personal collection includes classics such as 1911's and the newest hotness such as the Smith & Wesson M&P.

All of that being said.... When I have a choice in the matter (Off duty), I carry a GLOCK model 19 and I bet my life on it. I don't need any innovative improvements to guide that decision. I need the absolute reliability that the classic GLOCK design offers.

[MRFriedhoff]

This convo reminds me of car enthusiasts.... some just want show.... some just want go... personally I'm a 'go' kind of man. I don't care much about Glock changing anything to be up to date or modern. Mine works perfectly and that's all that matters to me for my families safety. The average gunfight lasts 2.5 seconds... I doubt at that time your(not directing this at anyone) going to be thinking 'Damn... I wish I had a different backstrap'... Just my .02

[Tang419]

When it appears that most people and most agencies within our borders (and many outside our borders) who make a living with a firearm, still prefer a particular firearm, are switching to a particular firearm in greater numbers than switching away, ... and when manufacturers are still copying a particular firearm or trying hard to knock it off its perch, I say not much change or innovation may be needed. Can it be made better to accommodate more people? Yes.

I know that is a long and run-on sentence, but I'm taking literary license.

I was reading some articles on the Ruger SR9, and seen where they said it was Rugers shot at the big black dog on the block. So you are right about that, everyone wants to dethrone Gaston's creation.

[Tang419]

8. I don't see the comparison, a Glock couldn't have a decocker.

Why not ? I had a Walther P99 with a decocker. Not that I'd want my Glock to have one though.

[BamaTrooper]

I like Glock....

I love my G17, but my other guns are just as good, even better in some ways....

i love my Sig, Beretta and Srpingfield XD too...each one has attributes the others dont have..

Glock is not the "end all" gun....at least for me its not

I agree...none of my Glocks are capable of cycling those pesky 7.62x51 rounds.:rofl:
This has turned into a "one man's trash..." debate.
I drive a Honda because it is good on fuel consumption and it is relaible. I prefer the Crown Vic over the FWD Impalas as a patrol car. My little Dodge Dakota is good enough to haul trash and take to the hunting camp, but I wish I had a Jeep with a trailer. I prefer an 870 over the 590/500 and a HK91 over the M1A.
Glocks are functional and effective and they fit MY hand. I LIKE THEM, so I buy them. I would like to see their take on a rifle though, ... something along the lines of a polymer FNC.

[oldgraygeek]

Answers:
C-130 Hercules, AK-47, Saab 96 V4, Glocks.

Question:
What is perfect enough to be manufactured for decades without significant changes?

[schapman43]

Why not ? I had a Walther P99 with a decocker. Not that I'd want my Glock to have one though.

Why would a Glock need a decocker? It's essentially decocked everytime the trigger is released. The action is fully cocked as the trigger is pulled.

[saspic]

lets see: how many versions of the same gun does Glock have????

Glock 17,18,19,20,21,22,23,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39........

i KNOW i missed one somewhere...LOL LOL.....
You missed the G17L (longslide), G24 (also a longslide), and the G25 (another pesky .380).
Plus the red GLOCKS. And the blue ones. And the cutaways.
Whew!:faint:
Of course, most people can't get those in the U.S. most of the time.

[fastbolt]

You'd think we were talking about how everyone was waiting for the new car models to be introduced or the 'newest' fall clothing fashions ...

It's a handgun folks. If it works in its basic format why change it? I mean, obviously, Glock (like everyone else) is constantly making revisions and refinements to address whatever they feel will improve their product for their customers ... but why do we have to have NEW models just because there's a manufacturer's show?

I remember talking to a Glock rep at an expo one time. He casually made the comment something to the effect that Glock didn't have to continually introduce new models every year just to keep up market interest, because they had a well-developed product line that offered all the features that LE (and the public) found suitable and practical for their needs.

You'd think that with the continuing refinements within their established model line that the occasional special production runs (17L) would keep their client base happy and satisfied.

Granted, being able to significantly change the dimensions and profile of the grip may be an increasingly attractive feature among competitive product lines (grip inserts & even Sig's new 'frame' modules), and Glock may ... or may not ... have plans to attempt to respond to this market trend.

The 'rumored' introduction of the ambidextrous magazine catch as an option across their entire line strikes me as something that's been a bit overdue, but it's not exactly what a lot of folks may consider a major feature. Left-handed folks have been successfully adapting to magazine catches designed for right-handed users for many years. ;)

Personally, I like the simplicity of the M&P being able to be reversed by the user, as well as the S&W TSW line having either reversible or 'handedness-oriented' optional parts (depending whether it's a double or single column frame), compared to way the standard Sig Sauer magazine catch has to be reversed. I also like the ambidextrous designs used on the 99 & USP series.

Anyway, that's getting off-topic ...

Glock has a fine model line as it is, and as long as they maintain their ability to continue to make any necessary refinements and slight improvements along the way, I think they'll remain a viable, competitive firearms company.

Granted, I've been told that approx 80% of Glock's firearms market is the US, so I also wouldn't be surprised if they try to occasionally boost interest with marketing strategies, similarly to how a couple of the other companies are offering 'packages' of popular models (handgun, holster, accessory light/laser, extra magazines, etc.).

It's rather a shame how our culture has somehow been influenced by manufacturers ... (and we share the 'blame' in this regard, to some extent, as consumers) ... to constantly expect, and eagerly await, with cash-in-hand, "NEW & IMPROVED" in many things.

Then, once we have the newest whatever-it-is in our hands, that's when we often eagerly start trying to got back and obtain the 'retro' version. We can be a puzzling bunch of consumers, don't you think?

[Thx-1138]

Things I'd like to see Glock offer:


Better ambidextrous controls. Sue me; I'm left-handed. Someday you may want to drop that mag or release that slide with only your weak hand.

Single-stack slimline models in the smaller calibers (9mm, 357, 40).


Yep, that's about it. Still, I've been happy to use their products for over 20 years, and don't see any reason to stop just because other manufacturers offer Flavor-of-the-Month features (Improved Loaded Chamber Indicator! Now in Color!!! :upeyes:).

[anyplainjoe]

Gaston's Innovations:
G17
G26

Use of Tennifer

Maybe G20

Gaston's smart moves:
Offering factory direct replacement parts to ensure he controls the dimensions and thus reliability. Cheap mags. Loose-ish chambers.


Gaston's biggest mistakes:
Building the G21 on the G20 slide & frame. Nearly every XD45 sale would have been a G21 or G21sf if he had better met what shooter's have asked for.

Racing S&W to market on the 40, and having too much of the barrel unsupported. When I sort thru range brass, about 1 in 150 40's with a Glock striker mark has scary expansion near the base.


But competitors are listening to consumers, and are offering the requested tweaks on the proven, basic design.

[AustinTx]

In my opinion, there have really been only about 3 pistols that were revolutionary, as far as modern guns (self contained cartridges) are concerned. The first was the Colt SAA "peacemaker", everybody wanted one. The second was Browning's 1911 design, which I think derived from the colt 1906(also Browning). The third is the Glock. All three of these pistols are extremely still popular today. All three have been extremely popular with both the military and LE. Whoever thought plastic pistols would be revolutionary? I still find it hard to believe the Glock took over as the LE, pistol of choice, as fast as it did. AT

[Suburban]

Answers:
C-130 Hercules, AK-47, Saab 96 V4, Glocks.

Question:
What is perfect enough to be manufactured for decades without significant changes?

I gotta +1 that. Don't forget the B-52 though.

Of all the pistols out there, the one I like most is a 17, although it's a 3rd Gen. I just bought a 19 because I haven't been sufficiently impressed by the XDs or M&Ps, ParaOrd pistols are too heavy for carry, STI pistols are too expensive and I don't like the way the grip feels, I don't like DA/SA autos . . .

Seems odd that Glock is not making frames with interchangable backstraps, but they're still selling the "old" models by the pallet load. Companies only need to change the product when sales are slipping. If Glock can keep making the same stuff, and it still sells, they really don't need to change anything to keep afloat.

[SAWBONES]

Marketers always have to have "something new", or if they don't, they'll pretend to, or come up with some cosmetic fluff type of change that they can advertise as "new".

I too wonder where Glock's "great new thing" went that was promised several years ago?

I also agree that the G.A.P. cartridge and guns for it was an ego-driven attempt by Gaston Glock to have his very own cartridge, a la the several ACP cartridges and the SIG 357, but it's basically been an economic flop, since it fills no real need not already met, the guns didn't turn out as originally specified, and the guns and cartridge certainly have few adherents as a result.

It might truly be in Glock's best interest to modify their grip designs to become capable of modular adjustment. There's sufficient room in the backstrap portion of the frame for that. Since that sort of feature has now proved popular on several other makers' guns, it's clear that the ability to easily make a gun grip fit the individual user's hand more closely is a genuinely-useful feature. I suspect this will in fact become an available option with Glock guns in future, even though it will require some re-tooling.

[fastbolt]

Seems odd that Glock is not making frames with interchangable backstraps ...

I suspect this might be an interesting challenge for them in a couple of ways. Dunno for sure. Just a thought.

First, it might require a redesign of their ILS system, which is still an option, and this isn't something which is done lightly. They've already done their R&D for the existing ILS option.

Secondly, even notwithstanding the ILS option, the grip backstrap still contains the drainage opening from up under the slide ... (Well, that's still what it's been described as being in armorer classes, anyway. I wasn't there myself when it was designed.) This drainage passageway does look smaller when comparing the G21 & G21SF, but they still retained it in the SF model when I was looking at one. Be interesting to see if a set of replaceable grip inserts could be designed which retained the drainage passageway in a size which would still be practical. I suppose it could be done, since the M&P pistol platform incorporates room for the removable sear lever tool. Dunno.

Bottom line, it appears Glock is happy ... and doing well enough, sales-wise ... to continue refining and making ongoing small modifications to their existing line of pistols (which isn't a small one, you know).

Change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing ...

Now, change for the sake of making money ... :whistling: :tongueout:

[GRR]

Marketers always have to have "something new", or if they don't, they'll pretend to, or come up with some cosmetic fluff type of change that they can advertise as "new".

I too wonder where Glock's "great new thing" went that was promised several years ago?

I also agree that the G.A.P. cartridge and guns for it was an ego-driven attempt by Gaston Glock to have his very own cartridge, a la the several ACP cartridges and the SIG 357, but it's basically been an economic flop, since it fills no real need not already met, the guns didn't turn out as originally specified, and the guns and cartridge certainly have few adherents as a result.

It might truly be in Glock's best interest to modify their grip designs to become capable of modular adjustment. There's sufficient room in the backstrap portion of the frame for that. Since that sort of feature has now proved popular on several other makers' guns, it's clear that the ability to easily make a gun grip fit the individual user's hand more closely is a genuinely-useful feature. I suspect this will in fact become an available option wirg Glock guns in future, even though it will require some re-tooling.

What "Great New Thing" has Glock promised? A few folks, enamored with "new and improved", have been clamoring for "something else". Most of us don't want change for change’s sake.

I disagree that the GAP round is an ego trip for Gaston, If so then the ACP was an ego round for Colt. It’s the round I’ve been looking for. You can keep saying that it “fills a need not already met” till the earth cools, but your statement is patently false. It meets a need for me that was NOT met otherwise. The G38, with its heavy slide, balances the best of any Glock I own.

I hope Glock continues to improve where improvement is actually needed, e.g. the G21SF, but I will be disappointed if they succumb to the “lets offer 10 new things every year” mindset of other manufacturers.

[Dean]

A friend wrote:
"I disagree that the GAP round is an ego trip for Gaston... It’s the round I’ve been looking for. You can keep saying that it “fills a need not already met” till the earth cools, but your statement is patently false. It meets a need for me that was NOT met otherwise. The G38, with its heavy slide, balances the best of any Glock I own."


Oh REALLY...
Thanks for the tip. I am now looking forward to firing me a G38!

[diode]

Interesting thread. Made me think.

As a man who spent half of his life on European side of the water, and another half on this side, I might be able to illuminate another angle that some of you didn't consider.

There are two things that I collect. Wrist watches, and guns. Rolex being a watch of my choice, and Glock a handgun of my choice. After studying and following both brands for more than two decades, I find MANY similarities between them. Holding their value, and in some cases appreciating, is just one of them.

One similarity pertaining to this thread is the pace of change (or lack of it!). To understand how these companies (and many other European companies) look on change, one needs to spend more than just a vacation in Europe.

Different culture, different customs and definitely, different business practices. Change is not perceived as a necessarily a "good thing"! Tradition is everything. And to build "tradition" takes a long time!

One example,....they build houses and buildings to last several centuries (and they do last that long!), and they don't bulldoze them down to build new every "few" years! I don't have to remind any of you on ever changing skyline of our cities, do I?

Another example,....average US consumer buys a new car every 2,5 years,....Europeans every 10 years on average! Average American moves his household five times in his lifetime, average Europeans live three generations under the same roof.

Another thing,....a long resume with many different jobs and skills is considered an asset in the US,....in Europe, if you work for one company for 40 years shows your value!

Changes that (for example) Rolex S.A, is introducing to their product line, are often referred as coming at the "glacial" speed. And the Swiss consider this to be a good thing. Both companies make a "bulletproof" product, both are completely cold, Teutonic, unemotional in design, and both are highly regarded in their respective circles.

So the lack of innovation when it comes to Glock, is completely in tune with their owner's heritage, culture and customs. Do not expect a constant change coming from that continent. They are VERY rooted in their traditions, and for most part, I consider it to be a "good thing".

Sorry about the long post and lecturing.


Here we are on page 4 and still 90% of the posters are still in denial of this basic fact of the European Lifestyle. Here in America we think smart is 275 years of existince, the folks across the big lake have been around for 1500 years. Old to us is a 150 year old house, over there it is a 300 to 500 year old house. They have lived and died on the same ground over and over defending a lifestyle that has constantly evolved over the centuries, we have not. Does this make them superior? No. Does it make them more worldly? Yes.

[MontanaBighorn]

glock builds one heck of a good pistol that i believe is still probably the most reliable money can buy at any price. that said, i also feel they have relaxed on their good name while every day losing more and more of their share to other designs offering superior concepts such as replacable back-straps to ensure one weapon design can accomodate any size soldier/officer. despite how innovative the glock design once was, it has been copied and in some ways improved upon to the point that both my gun dealers tell me theyre selling xd's 1 to 1 with glocks and the m&p is gaining on the both rapidly. to continue wasting money hyping the .45 gap is foolish. that same money should be spent on improving upon their original design to be more competitive with others who have taken the glock design to a higher level.

im sold on my glocks, they serve me very well. my next purchase will be a g23 with GNS as i believe it to be perfect for my carry needs. that said, if they would figure out how to make a grip with a decent angle on their larger frames without wasting so much space my next 10mm would be a g20 instead of a 1911.

[sevenpedaler]

"death dealing killing machine":wow:

Wow. Just walk out of the house and deal out some death with that Glock.

Aren't the antis just salivating when pro 2nd amendment folks have to deal with this?

+1
"It is better to keep quiet and let them think you are stupid than to speak up and confirm it"

[Big Sam]

Answers:
C-130 Hercules, AK-47, Saab 96 V4, Glocks.

Question:
What is perfect enough to be manufactured for decades without significant changes?


That about says it for me (though I don't know anything about the Saab). Been shooting Glocks for a long time now and still marvel at the simple near perfection of the Glocks. As a good American I love innovation as much as anyone else. As one who appreciates a good tool even more, I love Glock's way of making things work. Here in 2008, maybe the greatest innovation is something that always works. Something that gives you your monies worth many times over.

Still, I am amazed that Glock has not taken my wonderful little 36 and chambered it for the 38 Super. I think it would make a heck of a nice thin 8-11 round fire breather. Probably not much of a market for it though. I believe the 45 GAP was far less an issue of pride on Gaston's part and more one of marketing genius. He watched the American police market moving from 9mm to 40 to.... Oops. When you get to 45 the frames get bigger and lots of things change. He circumvented most (not all) of that with the GAP design. Never fired or even held a GAP but it sure seems to be another case of Glock genius to me.

Viva Glock. The greatest innovation of all. It works almost perfectly almost all the time under almost all conditions and is worthy of it's reputation. They should be standard issue on all C-130 Gooney Birds!

ps... another poster was right. Add the B-52 to that list.

[anyplainjoe]

...over there it is a 300 to 500 year old house.



Dont think those are too common-WW2 destroyed alot of stuff. I can't imagine folks living in a house built in 1500-about the time Columbus came to America!

[easyg]

Does this make them superior? No. Does it make them more worldly? Yes.
Not really.

The American son of immigrant parents who came to the USA from europe is certainly just as worldly as the european son of european parents who elected to stay in europe.
The immigants to the "new world" didn't forget their history simply because they crossed the sea.

I have a british friend who married an american girl and now lives in Ohio....
before he met her and came to the USA he had never set foot out of England.
And the only friends and co-workers he had were caucasian british guys and gals.
Now he works with quite a mix of folks....african americans, hispanic americans, european americans, and even a vietnamese american.

[diode]

Dont think those are too common-WW2 destroyed alot of stuff. I can't imagine folks living in a house built in 1500-about the time Columbus came to America!

Contrary to popular belief, not everything in Europe was destroyed in WWII.
Cities maybe, Eastern Europe, maybe. There are plenty of areas still left in undamaged condition..If you have not been there, you should visit if it is of interest to you......

[Glock Whisperer]

A few issues that I had with the "Annual Message from the Founder" in the 2008 Annual:
1. (Referencing the G30SF) - "While the introduction of a new pistol always creates excitement..."

So would the introduction of a carbine :supergrin:

[anyplainjoe]

I still can't find a new pistol in their catalog.

[dasmi]

Personally, I'd like to see a Glock carbine, that is compatible with their pistol mags. Think about, a Glock carbine in 9mm or .40 that comes from the factory with a few of their 33 round magazines. Sweet.

[Bear Rider]

Here we are on page 4 and still 90% of the posters are still in denial of this basic fact of the European Lifestyle. Here in America we think smart is 275 years of existince, the folks across the big lake have been around for 1500 years. Old to us is a 150 year old house, over there it is a 300 to 500 year old house. They have lived and died on the same ground over and over defending a lifestyle that has constantly evolved over the centuries, we have not. Does this make them superior? No. Does it make them more worldly? Yes.

Nope. Merely more sedentary and hide bound. That's why none of them have been to the moon, and why most of the innovation of the last century has been American.

[NoComp]

+1
The make good sunglasses and sports cars too!

and Motorcycles.

[anyplainjoe]

Glock should have made an AUG style carbine (which takes Glock mags), like how the other company...whatever their name is...just did.

[isuzu]

Glock is not Apple. It's not in their best interest to unveil a new iPod every year. They do one thing very well and they don't need to announce it to the world by topping themselves every year.

IMO, Glock products are revolutionary. Same as the 1911 platform. The 1911's design is almost 100 years. Yet a lot of military and LEOs still use them. It is still the standard issue sidearm of the Armed Forces of the Philippines. If people didn't find a good use for Glocks or the 1911 design for that matter, they have been long archived and forgotten.

As the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke don't fix (or change) it."

[TexasPOff]

I think Glocks are great pistols. They do have their lmits though. Speaking as a Law Enforcement officer, I can tell you from experience why glocks are so popular in law enforcement. 1. The G22 and 23 were the only other pistols released when the 40 came out. Alot, and I mean alot of officers jumped on the 40 bandwagon, The other was the S&W 4006. 2. Glocks were fast becomming known for thier reliability, a major concern in police work. 3. Glock are inexspensive with the law enforcement discount. These 3 things is the major reason why Glock are so popular in Police work. I think Glock would do well to consider revising thier grip angle and size. This is the single most complained about and modified attribute of Glocks. Every other manufacturer has complied with the public request for smaller, and or interchangable grips. I am not a smith fan by any means, at least not thier autos. I will say they are making headway in picking up law enforcement contracts. Even knocking Glock out of one of thiers, the NM state police, who dropped thier G31 in favor of the M&P 357. I can only assume this was done for pistol comfort. I have carried Glocks for most of my 14 plus years as an officer, but even my XD-45 fits my hand better. Im not shure I would say it is better than a glock, but for me it fits better, and so far is as reliable and as accurate. Should Glock ever build a smaller 45 acp, or even a single stack 45, I couldn't buy one fast enough. :faint:

[AustinTx]

Pistol cartridges do not make very good rifle cartridges. The M-1 Carbine wasn't known for it's lethal properties. The 30 Carbine would not penetrate The quilted jackets the enemy wore in Korea. I wish someone would start a thread and state the purpose of a carbine that will use Glock mags.

Glock Design: Please leave it alone. Gaston Glock has been trying to improve the reliability and refining the mechanical aspects of his pistol. It is considerably better than when first introduced. As for people clamoring for pistol manufacturers, to build interchangeable grips, I never heard of it. Only a very few pistols have "build to fit" grips. I don't want to have to pay an extra $100 for a "take apart" grip. I think that all pistols up until 1980, just came with a handle. People never begged Colt, S&W or Ruger to build pistols with interchangeable grips. Glock is the only pistol that was simple enough and parts tolerances close enough to make all parts available to the general public. I bet an individual cannot buy a firing pin for most pistols, other than the 1911. The main reason the 1911 is still so popular is great design and availability of parts. Please don't mess a mighty fine design up. I don't like the "improved extractor" with its "loaded chamber indicator". I think we now have two different types of "spring loaded bearing, extractor spring" assemblies. I had rather only need to keep one spare instead of 2.
At

[MrGlock21]

and Motorcycles.

and Chianti with ice cream

[JN01]

Glock Design: Please leave it alone. Gaston Glock has been trying to improve the reliability and refining the mechanical aspects of his pistol. It is considerably better than when first introduced. As for people clamoring for pistol manufacturers, to build interchangeable grips, I never heard of it. Only a very few pistols have "build to fit" grips.

Times change. Now some people are asking for them.

I don't want to have to pay an extra $100 for a "take apart" grip. I think that all pistols up until 1980, just came with a handle. People never begged Colt, S&W or Ruger to build pistols with interchangeable grips.

They wouldn't necessarily have to have a "take apart" grip. How about offering a standard grip and a thin grip similar to what custom "grip reductions" produce. While people in the past may not have thought of asking for a changeable grip, they certainly lobbied the Big Three for production changes- and they got them. Colt has flat and curved mainspring housings on their 1911s, 2nd Gen S&W autos and Ruger autos were often criticized for being to blocky and changed to adapt to the market.

Glock is the only pistol that was simple enough and parts tolerances close enough to make all parts available to the general public. I bet an individual cannot buy a firing pin for most pistols, other than the 1911. The main reason the 1911 is still so popular is great design and availability of parts. Please don't mess a mighty fine design up.

I agree with keeping the basic design intact. But producing a single stack or straigter grip frame in addition to the current ones would not be a huge change any more than the addition of accessory rails or finger grooves.

Glock certainly doesn't need to improve their basic design. However, they no longer have the corner on the market. If their attitude is simply "This is how we make them, if you don't like it buy something else", then a certain portion of their potential market will look to other options. Adding models to fit a wider ergonomic range would only increase sales.

I don't understand some posters resistance to Glock producing other designs either. The fact that Gaston Glock produced such an innovative design with no prior experience in the firearms field is amazing. Why not stretch that genius brain again? Who wouldn't like a carbine, rifle, or mouse gun with Glock durability, reliability, etc.?

Being a single design manufacturer has worked well for Glock so far. But it may not always be so. The fact that there are many more competitors with similar products means an ever shrinking share of the pie. Twenty years from now, will they be in the position that Colt is now with their extremely limited product line?

[AustinTx]

Anyone is at liberty to ask Glock for whatever they want. I don't have any problem with that. I just hate to see the price go to what a custom 1911 sells for. By bringing the G21SF (with ambidextrous mag. release), to market we now have mags. that aren't compatible. All of the old hi-cap mags., on the market, won't work with these new G21SF's. From the looks of the new G17 mags, I just bought, it looks like it won't be long before old G17 mags. will not work in a new gun.

Folk on GT are looking at the Glock pistol market with tunnel vision. The civilian market in the USA will not break Glock, I don't think. They are concerned with a worldwide market, not just the US. I own a G31. If or when it ever wears out, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new one just like it, without a modified grip, or any other changes. They have so many various government contracts, I don't see how they are suppling the civilian market at all. Glock may shortly offer a new grip design. I believe they built a special pistol for some Australian Police Agency, with an external safety lever. If the potential customers are here, in sufficient numbers, they will get what they ask for. I think patience is required here.

I would like Glock to produce whatever configuration anyone asks for. I just want them to keep the current models just like they are.
At

[USMC06]

By bringing the G21SF (with ambidextrous mag. release), to market we now have mags. that aren't compatible. All of the old hi-cap mags., on the market, won't work with these new G21SF's.
At

Where did you get this info from?

[danielsand]

This is also my understanding. Old mags WILL NOT work in the new guns with ambi mag release. New mags are manufactured that fit old and new guns.
The notch in the magazine body is different. Newly manufactured mags, have both notches (for ambi, and for the old style).

[rmarkob]

I disagree that the GAP round is an ego trip for Gaston, If so then the ACP was an ego round for Colt. It’s the round I’ve been looking for. You can keep saying that it “fills a need not already met” till the earth cools, but your statement is patently false. It meets a need for me that was NOT met otherwise. The G38, with its heavy slide, balances the best of any Glock I own.

Why doesn't Glock make a .45ACP in the compact form factor, like the 38, 19, 23, etc.?

[SAWBONES]

Old mags WILL NOT work in the new guns with ambi mag release. New mags are manufactured that fit old and new guns.
The notch in the magazine body is different. Newly manufactured mags, have both notches (for ambi, and for the old style).

I've read elsewhere that the new G30SF will NOT have an ambidextrous mag release button.

[Cambo]

Pistol cartridges do not make very good rifle cartridges. The M-1 Carbine wasn't known for it's lethal properties. The 30 Carbine would not penetrate The quilted jackets the enemy wore in Korea. I wish someone would start a thread and state the purpose of a carbine that will use Glock mags.

Glock Design: Please leave it alone. Gaston Glock has been trying to improve the reliability and refining the mechanical aspects of his pistol. It is considerably better than when first introduced. As for people clamoring for pistol manufacturers, to build interchangeable grips, I never heard of it. Only a very few pistols have "build to fit" grips. I don't want to have to pay an extra $100 for a "take apart" grip. I think that all pistols up until 1980, just came with a handle. People never begged Colt, S&W or Ruger to build pistols with interchangeable grips. Glock is the only pistol that was simple enough and parts tolerances close enough to make all parts available to the general public. I bet an individual cannot buy a firing pin for most pistols, other than the 1911. The main reason the 1911 is still so popular is great design and availability of parts. Please don't mess a mighty fine design up. I don't like the "improved extractor" with its "loaded chamber indicator". I think we now have two different types of "spring loaded bearing, extractor spring" assemblies. I had rather only need to keep one spare instead of 2.
At

The purposes of a Glock Carbine:
1. Cheap long gun practice with 9mm(rifle ammo costs too much)
2. Good medium range defense weapon
3. Reliability(my Oly Arms K9GL not doing so hot)
4. Easy field stripping of a long gun
5. Fun

[AustinTx]

Where did you get this info from?


Just try one, please.
At

[USMC06]

Just try one, please.
At

I had a Starbucks attack. I knew better. I read it backwards for a moment. I know the new should fit the old and new and the old should only fit the old. Thanks! I misspoke. I have a G21, not a G21SF.

[GRR]

Why doesn't Glock make a .45ACP in the compact form factor, like the 38, 19, 23, etc.?

Because a 45acp round is too long to fit in a G17/G19/G26 frame.

[rmarkob]

Because a 45acp round is too long to fit in a G17/G19/G26 frame.

The G17 is Standard size in 9mm, as the G21 is in .45ACP. And the G26 is the Subcompact in 9mm, as the G30 is in .45ACP.

But look at the matrix in http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm (click on Models), and there's an empty space in the Compact column next to .45ACP. If they can do .45ACP in Standard and Subcompact (and SF versions in each), why not in Compact???

[GRR]

The G17 is Standard size in 9mm, as the G21 is in .45ACP. And the G26 is the Subcompact in 9mm, as the G30 is in .45ACP.

But look at the matrix in http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm (click on Models), and there's an empty space in the Compact column next to .45ACP. If they can do .45ACP in Standard and Subcompact (and SF versions in each), why not in Compact???


Ah, I take it that you haven't actually seen a G19 and a G30 together. The "subcompact" G30 is as big as a G19 only fatter with a longer trigger reach. The G36 is still as big as a G19/G23 in profile only thinner (too thin for me). When I owned a G36, I carried it in my G23 holster. Didn't own it long.

[rmarkob]

Ah, I take it that you haven't actually seen a G19 and a G30 together. The "subcompact" G30 is as big as a G19 only fatter with a longer trigger reach. The G36 is still as big as a G19/G23 in profile only thinner (too thin for me). When I owned a G36, I carried it in my G23 holster. Didn't own it long.

No, I haven't. Just going by that matrix on the Glock site. I guess that longer mag on the G30 takes the place of the third finger groove on the G19/G23. I'm hoping the G30SF's trigger reach is closer to that of the G19, since I already need a mag release extension to drop the mag with one hand on mine.

[douglasd]

Everybody knows the G30 is the top concealed carry gun on the street. Everybody knows the G23 is right up there a close second. Everybody knows the G19 is the best 9mm sidearm in the world.


Where in the world did you come up with that?? The G19 is the top CCW gun on the street, followed by the G23. The G30 is a distant third.

[GRR]

No, I haven't. Just going by that matrix on the Glock site. I guess that longer mag on the G30 takes the place of the third finger groove on the G19/G23. I'm hoping the G30SF's trigger reach is closer to that of the G19, since I already need a mag release extension to drop the mag with one hand on mine.
If it follows the G21/G21SF, which I'm sure it will, the difference in the trigger reach will be a little over 1/16 of an inch. I couldn't tell the difference between my G21 and G21SF.

[weybug]

Pistol cartridges do not make very good rifle cartridges. The M-1 Carbine wasn't known for it's lethal properties. The 30 Carbine would not penetrate The quilted jackets the enemy wore in Korea.


That thing about the M1 Carbine not penetrating Korean uniforms is a myth that I had heard as well.

The Box of Truth guy tested it. Here is the link.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

If a cartridge is good performer in a handgun, why would it not work in a long arm? I just do not get the argument. Sure an actual rifle cartridge would have more energy, greater range, etc. Though there is still a place for pistol caliber carbines.

[AustinTx]

I got the info. about the M-1, from a front line Infantry Captain who was in Korea. I never heard that story about ice stopping bullets. He was given a field commission with the rank of Captain. He saw a goodly amount of heavy fighting. Was a very good friend about 50 years.

You are welcome to all the pistol caliber carbines that you want. When I reach for my carbine, I pick up an AK-47, in 7.62X39. With 5,10,20,30,40 or 75 round mag. of 7.62X39, if required. A SKS is also a good choice, IMHO. I have absolutely no use for a pistol caliber carbine.
At

[weybug]

I got the info. about the M-1, from a front line Infantry Captain who was in Korea. I never heard that story about ice stopping bullets. He was given a field commission with the rank of Captain. He saw a goodly amount of heavy fighting. Was a very good friend about 50 years.
At

Well he was there and I was not. No disrespect is intended to your friend, who certainly deserves the respect of all of us for his service.

Still, having fired an M1 Carbine into (and through) various material I would not count on any kind of winter coat to stop a 30 carbine round.

[Diamond]

This is also my understanding. Old mags WILL NOT work in the new guns with ambi mag release. New mags are manufactured that fit old and new guns.
The notch in the magazine body is different. Newly manufactured mags, have both notches (for ambi, and for the old style).

I bought my G21SF with the single sided magazine release for this very reason. If anyone has old mags, I would assume they would do the same.

The old mags will not work with the AMBI mag release, you are correct.

It doesn't sound like Glock will be ditching the single sided mag release anytime soon. They are just adding another option for left handed shooters.

Plain and simple: If you want to be able to use any magazine (old or new), get the single sided mag release version of any Glock you buy in the future. That's what I did with my G21SF.

[weybug]

You are welcome to all the pistol caliber carbines that you want. When I reach for my carbine, I pick up an AK-47, in 7.62X39. With 5,10,20,30,40 or 75 round mag. of 7.62X39, if required. A SKS is also a good choice, IMHO. I have absolutely no use for a pistol caliber carbine.
At

I did not say a pistol caliber carbine would be my first (or even second) choice. I just say that they have their place and are far from useless. If every pistol caliber carbine is useless, then what use are pistols?

Not that you asked, but if it ever came time to reach into the gun cabinet for real, I would be pulling out my M1 Garand. The AK, M1 Carbines & SKSs would sit right there (unless I was handing them to friends and relatives).

[GeorgiaGlocker]

But Gaston has made the "Glock". Butch may have a pic of it. If any one does, he does. The Glock 7.

[AustinTx]

I did not say a pistol caliber carbine would be my first (or even second) choice. I just say that they have their place and are far from useless. If every pistol caliber carbine is useless, then what use are pistols?

Not that you asked, but if it ever came time to reach into the gun cabinet for real, I would be pulling out my M1 Garand. The AK, M1 Carbines & SKSs would sit right there (unless I was handing them to friends and relatives).


I, personally, have no idea what the purpose of a pistol caliber carbine is. The use of pistols, is to be able to carry concealed and on one's person, and have hands free for any other purpose. It's not a "take to battle" firearm, unless it's all you have. "what use are pistols ?" is a pretty juvenile question, IMHO.

Bully, for your M-1 Garand. I thought we were discussing pistol caliber CARBINES. I don't consider the Garand to be a carbine. It appears that you have thrown a new cat into this fight. I cannot afford to buy an M-1 Garand, personally, but I don't mind if you deploy yours.
At

[SAWBONES]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Everybody knows the G30 is the top concealed carry gun on the street. Everybody knows the G23 is right up there a close second. Everybody knows the G19 is the best 9mm sidearm in the world.

Where in the world did you come up with that?? The G19 is the top CCW gun on the street, followed by the G23. The G30 is a distant third.


He meant that the G30 is the top CCW gun among the cognoscenti.:)

[NoComp]

The purposes of a Glock Carbine:


How come I'm the only one with a Glock Carbine around here. Ya'll talk like it doesn't exist. Here I have a pic to prove it, along with my other Glocks.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc10/BW1911/hkfam.jpg

Oh, my bad....wrong forum :upeyes:

[cledford3]

Speaking as a Law Enforcement officer, I can tell you from experience why glocks are so popular in law enforcement. 3. Glock are inexspensive with the law enforcement discount:


Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner.

-Calvin

[weybug]

I, personally, have no idea what the purpose of a pistol caliber carbine is. The use of pistols, is to be able to carry concealed and on one's person, and have hands free for any other purpose. It's not a "take to battle" firearm, unless it's all you have. "what use are pistols ?" is a pretty juvenile question, IMHO.

Bully, for your M-1 Garand. I thought we were discussing pistol caliber CARBINES. I don't consider the Garand to be a carbine. It appears that you have thrown a new cat into this fight. I cannot afford to buy an M-1 Garand, personally, but I don't mind if you deploy yours.
At

If your claim was that pistol caliber carbines were too weak to be effective then what is the use of a pistol? That was a pretty simple question I thought.

I did not want to give the impression that I was trying to champion pistol caliber carbines as a first choice, thus my mention of the Garand to make that clear.

I can see uses for pistol caliber carbines.

1 - No recoil. For the young or old perhaps. My Mom wants a long arm, around, but she can not handle an SKS.

2 - Cheap to practice.

3- In general they are light and easy to carry. I love my Garand, but it is a chunk.

All I am saying is that to dismiss pistol caliber carbines as having no use is a mistake. I am not trying to talk you into using one.

Now about Garands. You mention you can not afford one. Have you checked out the CMP? If you meet the requirements you can get them relatively cheap. I think they are one of the greatest rifles ever and I wish you luck in obtaining one.

[AustinTx]

If your claim was that pistol caliber carbines were too weak to be effective then what is the use of a pistol? That was a pretty simple question I thought.

I did not want to give the impression that I was trying to champion pistol caliber carbines as a first choice, thus my mention of the Garand to make that clear.

I can see uses for pistol caliber carbines.

1 - No recoil. For the young or old perhaps. My Mom wants a long arm, around, but she can not handle an SKS.

2 - Cheap to practice.

3- In general they are light and easy to carry. I love my Garand, but it is a chunk.

All I am saying is that to dismiss pistol caliber carbines as having no use is a mistake. I am not trying to talk you into using one.

Now about Garands. You mention you can not afford one. Have you checked out the CMP? If you meet the requirements you can get them relatively cheap. I think they are one of the greatest rifles ever and I wish you luck in obtaining one.

Please post the quote from my post where I said that a pistol caliber carbine is useless. I said that I had no use for one.

I am familiar with CMP. Thanks for the suggestion.

As far as the M-1 Carbine, I always had trouble believing the Korean story. But remember, the M-! Carbine was developed for issue to rear echelon troops who would normally be issued a pistol. The carbine was just a little more accurate, I'm sure.
At

[fofinger]

the M-1 carbine was .30 caliber just like the M-1.... the Thompson and the Grease gun were .45 caliber.....

[engineer151515]

The 45 G.A.P. was an experiment that had good intentions, but has failed.

Love my failed experiment.
G-37 .45GAP

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6263/g37ne1.jpg

[AustinTx]

the M-1 carbine was .30 caliber just like the M-1.... the Thompson and the Grease gun were .45 caliber.....

You are evidently under the impression that all 30 caliber cartridges are the same. The M1 Garand was a 30-06 and the M-1 Carbine is 30 carbine. Surely you don't think these 2 cartridges are the same. I have no idea why we are discussing full auto weapons. I haven't seen anything to the contrary, as to them being .45 caliber. I will throw out the fact that the B-58 bomber had a 20mm Gatling Gun.

At

[Atty_Guy]

Glock. It's a killing machine. It kills. Put Crimson Trace lasergrips on it. There. You have a laser sighted killing machine.

Modified, that's a great sig line. . . .