View Full Version : What am I doing wrong?
Some years back, I got what I considered a good deal on a Glock 22. Problem was, I couldn't shoot it accurately. No jams, just, "if I was shooting for sh**, I wouldn't get a whiff", to quote the movie.
Annoying. Especially because I can shoot other pistols well. 1911s, the SIG I've been issued, my backup SIG... All good. The Glock... not so much.
So the Glock went into the cabinet to wait.
Just recently I found what I considered to be a great deal on a gen III Glock 20 with 6 15 round magazines, so I jumped on it. Today, I went to the range and...
See above. :steamed:
So what could I be doing where I can shoot other makes of pistols and get decent groups at decent ranges, but put a Glock in my hand and I might just as well crank it sideways, gangsta style, because "minute of bad guy" at 7 yards is the best I could do.
Firing was two handed, weaver, standing, taking plenty of time to get the sight picture right. (And I like how the G20 handles the 10mm. When I get more $$$ I'll get some of the good loads...)
What the heck, y'all? :steamed:
danielsand
01-30-2008, 19:15
Two words for you!
DRY FIRE!
A lots and lots of dry fire, my friend. Glock trigger can be tricky for some "old dogs" that have experience with other handguns. Newbies get it from the start, because they don't know any better!
Get that G22 out, dust it off, and practice with the sight picture, and trigger activation. Hint: could be VERY entertaining if no kids are around, when you watch C-SPAN!
fofinger
01-30-2008, 19:15
where were the bullets hitting?
Two words for you!
DRY FIRE!
A lots and lots of dry fire, my friend. Glock trigger can be tricky for some "old dogs" that have experience with other handguns. Newbies get it from the start, because they don't know any better!
Get that G22 out, dust it off, and practice with the sight picture, and trigger activation. Hint: could be VERY entertaining if no kids are around, when you watch C-SPAN!
I'll give it a try and report back later. :supergrin: Thanks!
Some years back, I got what I considered a good deal on a Glock 22. Problem was, I couldn't shoot it accurately. No jams, just, "if I was shooting for sh**, I wouldn't get a whiff", to quote the movie...
Okay this may not help much and it may not have sqwat to do with why you didn't shoot that G22 well...
But I don't shoot the G22 (or G17) worth a darn either. In my case they just don't fit my hand as well. The old frame (without finger grooves) will squirm in my hand and even with grip tape I just don't get a consistant hold on it. And worse yet the G22 Gen.3 frames (with the finger grooves) are terrible for me because the grooves are spaced tooooo darn wide for my fingers.
The Glock 23/19 frame however is a perfect fit for me, and with that size frame the Generation 3 finger grooves match up just right -and it shows in my shooting.
I have generally noticed the big guys tend to shoot the G22/17 size frame better than the G23/19 frame -so if you're a midsize guy maybe you need to try the G23/19 frames :cool:
where were the bullets hitting?
Pretty much all around. I had set up a shoot-n-see at 7 yards and had hits all round it, to my chagrin. :embarassed:
Okay this may not help much and it may not have sqwat to do with why you didn't shoot that G22 well...
But I don't shoot the G22 (or G17) worth a darn either. In my case they just don't fit my hand as well. The old frame (without finger grooves) will squirm in my hand and even with grip tape I just don't get a consistant hold on it. And worse yet the G22 Gen.3 frames (with the finger grooves) are terrible for me because the grooves are spaced tooooo darn wide for my fingers.
The Glock 23/19 frame however is a perfect fit for me, and with that size frame the Generation 3 finger grooves match up just right -and it shows in my shooting.
I have generally noticed the big guys tend to shoot the G22/17 size frame better than the G23/19 frame -so if you're a midsize guy maybe you need to try the G23/19 frames :cool:
Hmm. Well, it gives me an excuse to buy a G23/G19, but I'm going to be very disappointed if I can't master the G20. I'm more of a biggun, though...
Hmm. Well, it gives me an excuse to buy a G23/G19, but I'm going to be very disappointed if I can't master the G20. I'm more of a biggun, though...
Find a range that rents em out. Or ask another shooter you see plinking away with a G19 if you can try it out, at the range I frequent a G19 will show up every hour -seems everybody has one :cool:
...Firing was two handed, weaver, standing, taking plenty of time to get the sight picture right...
Again just from my own experiences here... I shoot Glocks better from isosceles than modified weaver. Squeeze with the left hand and really press that left thumb into the frame. And it goes without saying that there is some trainup required to get good with the Glock trigger especially if you've spent most of your time with the 1911 platform (although I think the Glock is the closest to the 1911 for consistancy).
I shot modified weaver with my 1911s for years, but transitioned to isosceles when I moved over the the Glock, YMMV :cool:
Again just from my own experiences here... I shoot Glocks better from isosceles than modified weaver. Squeeze with the left hand and really press that left thumb into the frame. And it goes without saying that there is some trainup required to get good with the Glock trigger especially if you've spent most of your time with the 1911 platform (although I think the Glock is the closest to the 1911 for consistancy).
I shot modified weaver with my 1911s for years, but transitioned to isosceles when I moved over the the Glock, YMMV :cool:
Good tips, thank you. Just as long as my SIGs don't get upset...
This might aide you in troubleshooting your shots:
http://bozz5384.googlepages.com/IMG_0452.JPG
Arc Angel
01-31-2008, 00:31
:) It's late; I'm tired; and you need a lot of remedial work. If the bullets are striking all over the target at 7 yards, then, the answer is simple -
YOU'RE DOING EVERYTHING WRONG! :freak:
Focus, focus, focus! Start by NOT aiming at the whole target. Put a 1" dot in the center and aim at that. Get out of Weaver; get out of Modified Weaver; neither is a natural stance. The Isosceles isn't quite right either. If you are right-handed, then, even with your shoulders perpendicular to the target, your left arm should have a slight bend to it. (Because the pistol is under your right eye!)
Your grip has to be completely wrong. Don't, 'lemon squeeze' the pistol. Grasp it as if you were holding a pack of playing cards by the edges and from front to back - Always from front to back.
I'll save you months' of practice and lots of ammunition by telling you that there is a, 'magic spot' located about half-way up the backstrap on the pistol's grip. In order to control this spot you first have to realize that it exists. The more you are aware of, and the more you actively control this spot, the straighter and the better you will shoot.
From now on, whenever you grasp a pistol, press your gun hand into the front and back of the frame; you should, 'jam' your fingers up tight underneath the front strap while you are working to control that, 'magic spot' you just discovered.
I like to think of my hands and arms as a, 'rifle stock'. (But this is, probably, because I was initially trained on rifles!) Don't fire the pistol from your wrists; fire from your forearms and elbows, instead. Use the, '60/40' principal: Most of the force from your grip should come from your support hand. It exerts pressure in a backward and downward direction. Your gun hand should be relatively relaxed with the pad in front of your trigger finger's distal joint, more or less, evenly bisected by the trigger.
Keep your thumbs forward and pointed at the target. Only lots and lots of live fire will teach you the correct proprioceptive (reflex) response to recoil. (No! You can't learn this from dry fire.) Still, you are definitely going to need to pick up some snap caps and do lots and lots of dry firing because dry firing will condition you to hold the pistol steady as the trigger breaks and precondition a part of your reflexes to avoid flinching.
No doubt Glock's weird trigger, 'thingy' (the safety!) is, also, throwing you off. You will need to adjust to the long trigger take-up, too. The proper way to fire a Glock repetitively is to, 'fire from reset'. The right way to learn how to do this is to, at first, hold the trigger all the way to the rear after each shot; then, gradually reduce the amount of time that you hold the trigger back.
When you learn how to do it right you will be slightly moving your trigger finger forward by about 1/8" after each shot and allowing the Glock's trigger to, 'chase' your finger - Which should always be ever so slightly AHEAD of the trigger, itself.
(In other words, don't allow the trigger to bump into your finger. Instead, move your trigger finger backwards into the trigger immediately after it resets. (You need that slight gap between your trigger finger and the trigger in order to guarantee the pistol's proper function.)
I don't usually recommend this; but, for awhile I think you should spend less time watching your front sight, and more time watching your bullet holes. After you start grouping those holes close together, gradually transfer your attention back to the front sight where it belongs. Shoot at between 5 and 10 yards until your confidence and skill increase.
If you can afford a case of ammo, buy a case of ammo. Start every range session with 10 or 15 minutes of dry firing; and, shoot a minimum of two hundred rounds a week while you mentally, 'dial in' these skills. Stay with the Glock, and don't switch from pistol to pistol until this is behind you - OK!
Hope this does it for ya. Feel free to PM me if you like. I'm signing off for the night.
PS: I just read your bio. Of course you shoot a 1911 better. It's a much narrower grip that nestles well into the hand; and, subconsciously, you are avoiding all the mistakes outlined above. Keep the items I've mentioned in the front of your brain for awhile and work consciously, 'backwards' into the Glock. In this way, you should be able to make rapid progress.
All we're doing is deliberately restating a few fundamentals that apply, in particular, to wider polymer frame pistols with - in this case - a, 'different' sort of trigger.
I'm sure you'll get it; and, when you do, you'll really learn to love the way a Glock resets! In my experience, it's just fast enough to make you really accurate at speed! :thumbsup:
When I fire 1,500 rounds a month, this is what I can do at 50 feet as fast as I can pull the trigger on a G-21 -
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h39/Me_2U/1Rapid16YardTarget.jpg
Bronson7
01-31-2008, 05:43
I have two Glocks. A G30 and a 21SF. Dry firing at a spot on the wall helped me immensely but what helped even more were different sights. A lot of folks see nothing wrong with the sight picture presented by the stock sights, but to me, it was always vague to say the least. The front sights never properly aligned with the basket. I went to after market three dot sights which made a big improvement in my shooting. I'm currently waiting for a set for my new 21SF.
Bronson7
:) It's late; I'm tired; and you need a lot of remedial work. If the bullets are striking all over the target at 7 yards, then, the answer is simple -
YOU'RE DOING EVERYTHING WRONG! :freak:
:laughabove: Thanks! There's lots of good info there, and I'll be getting on it. One thing I can't do, though, is not practice with anything else. The state would be somewhat annoyed if I suddenly got worse with what they gave me to carry every day, but I'll work it out.
Nice target, BTW. Wish I could afford to shoot 1,500 rounds per month. :crying:
(The state is rather stingy on practice ammo...)
I have two Glocks. A G30 and a 21SF. Dry firing at a spot on the wall helped me immensely but what helped even more were different sights. A lot of folks see nothing wrong with the sight picture presented by the stock sights, but to me, it was always vague to say the least. The front sights never properly aligned with the basket. I went to after market three dot sights which made a big improvement in my shooting. I'm currently waiting for a set for my new 21SF.
Bronson7
I prefer three dot sights, too. Haven't gotten them yet, but...
Arc Angel
01-31-2008, 08:27
:laughabove: Thanks! There's lots of good info there, and I'll be getting on it. One thing I can't do, though, is not practice with anything else. The state would be somewhat annoyed if I suddenly got worse with what they gave me to carry every day, but I'll work it out.
:freak: Sorry! I didn't mean to be rude. My (acquired) didactic technique is to, first, smack someone over the head; then, after I have their full attention, begin to deliver the message.
After sleeping on it, overnight, I think that the additional width of the Glock's frame and its different trigger are causing you to splay your shooting hand between trigger finger and thumb. This more open shooting hand is, consequently introducing a lack of control over polymer grips that you normally do not experience with your other narrower and more gently angled metal frame pistols.
Be aware that you're, also, shooting with a much straighter strong-hand wrist and, consequently, have less immediate control over the muzzle. (Hence the necessity to work more with your support-hand.)
In a way this is a lucky break for you because it brings to the forefront of your brain all the subconscious subtleties inherent to pistol shooting. Getting comfortable with a wider, more sharply angled, frame and different trigger, now, should only work to improve your overall pistol-handling skills and marksmanship.
Personally, I found it difficult to transition over to a Glock after what amounts to a lifetime of shooting 1911 pattern pistols. Today, however, I find it almost ridiculously easy to go back the other way. The better you are with a Glock, the easier it's going to be to handle another pistol; or, at least, this has been my own personal experience. ;)
:freak: Sorry! I didn't mean to be rude. My (acquired) didactic technique is to, first, smack someone over the head; then, after I have their full attention, begin to deliver the message.
No worries - I didn't take it to be rudeness.
After sleeping on it, overnight, I think that the additional width of the Glock's frame and its different trigger are causing you to splay your shooting hand between trigger finger and thumb. This more open shooting hand is, consequently introducing a lack of control over polymer grips that you normally do not experience with your other narrower and more gently angled metal frame pistols.
I think, especially with the fat grip 20, you're onto something.
Be aware that you're, also, shooting with a much straighter strong-hand wrist and, consequently, have less immediate control over the muzzle. (Hence the necessity to work more with your support-hand.)
In a way this is a lucky break for you because it brings to the forefront of your brain all the subconscious subtleties inherent to pistol shooting. Getting comfortable with a wider, more sharply angled, frame and different trigger, now, should only work to improve your overall pistol-handling skills and marksmanship.
Personally, I found it difficult to transition over to a Glock after what amounts to a lifetime of shooting 1911 pattern pistols. Today, however, I find it almost ridiculously easy to go back the other way. The better you are with a Glock, the easier it's going to be to handle another pistol; or, at least, this has been my own personal experience. ;)
Great! Then there's yet another reason to get to working with a Glock.
Supoose a grip reduction might help, if done appropriately?
Arc Angel
02-09-2008, 00:34
:upeyes: Opinions vary; but, no, I do not think so. In my experience grip reductions are just as inclined to take something of, both, use and value away from a pistol as they are to add anything useful.
Personally, I'd work on acquiring a better grip and skillful muzzle control before anything else. Had any luck tuning into that, 'magic spot' on the backstrap yet? This is how I've managed all of my combat pistol shooting for years now.
True, I've had a lot of conventional pistol instruction; and, I know that, at one time or another, I've seen, heard, and done it all. Still, nobody directly taught me any of this. Instead, I taught it to myself; and, after heart surgery in 2004, I had to teach myself how to shoot all over again. (So, now, I've had to learn how to skillfully manage a pistol twice in my life.)
Not to underrate front sight focus; but, when I'm tuned into skillfully managing the backstrap, I shoot pistol very well; and, whenever I start to let it get away from me, I don't. Watching the front sight is important; but, in my experience, it's a poor substitute for properly managing the entire pistol.
Again, in my opinion, this is the principal reason, 'Why' in actual pistol combat so many, otherwise, decent range pistoleros suddenly tend to shoot low. Watching the front sight, in and of itself, isn't going to control the pistol for you - Instead, a decent front sight picture is the immediate RESULT of managing everything else about the pistol correctly.
This is the internet; and, you're probably going to be given other advice. That's all very well and good; this is, however, the best advice that I have to offer you. ;)
kelsitone
02-09-2008, 00:39
This helped me tremendously.
http://www.glockfaq.com/trigger.htm
4095fanatic
02-09-2008, 00:46
For me, changing my stance was all it took to cut myself from horrendous shot groupings to 2-3" groups at 7 yards. Still room for improvement, but much better than what I had been doing before.
Capt Don
02-09-2008, 07:10
:)
I'll save you months' of practice and lots of ammunition by telling you that there is a, 'magic spot' (Could this be the elusive G Spot we've all heard about?? )located about half-way up the backstrap on the pistol's grip. In order to control this spot you first have to realize that it exists. The more you are aware of, and the more you actively control this spot, the straighter and the better you will shoot.
Maybe this is why you can't hit the target :rofl:
Sorry, but I just couldn't resist:supergrin:
:upeyes: Opinions vary; but, no, I do not think so. In my experience grip reductions are just as inclined to take something of, both, use and value away from a pistol as they are to add anything useful.
Personally, I'd work on acquiring a better grip and skillful muzzle control before anything else. Had any luck tuning into that, 'magic spot' on the backstrap yet? This is how I've managed all of my combat pistol shooting for years now.
True, I've had a lot of conventional pistol instruction; and, I know that, at one time or another, I've seen, heard, and done it all. Still, nobody directly taught me any of this. Instead, I taught it to myself; and, after heart surgery in 2004, I had to teach myself how to shoot all over again. (So, now, I've had to learn how to skillfully manage a pistol twice in my life.)
Not to underrate front sight focus; but, when I'm tuned into skillfully managing the backstrap, I shoot pistol very well; and, whenever I start to let it get away from me, I don't. Watching the front sight is important; but, in my experience, it's a poor substitute for properly managing the entire pistol.
Again, in my opinion, this is the principal reason, 'Why' in actual pistol combat so many, otherwise, decent range pistoleros suddenly tend to shoot low. Watching the front sight, in and of itself, isn't going to control the pistol for you - Instead, a decent front sight picture is the immediate RESULT of managing everything else about the pistol correctly.
This is the internet; and, you're probably going to be given other advice. That's all very well and good; this is, however, the best advice that I have to offer you. ;)
Thanks. I haven't yet made it back to the range - dang paperwork. I'll be able, hopefully, to get there Monday...
This helped me tremendously.
http://www.glockfaq.com/trigger.htm
Thanks! I'll have a look...
For me, changing my stance was all it took to cut myself from horrendous shot groupings to 2-3" groups at 7 yards. Still room for improvement, but much better than what I had been doing before.
I hear ya...
I'm the same way. I shoot everything better than my Glocks. I have a 3rd gen G26 that I shoot pretty well, and a 2nd gen G22 that I can shoot just borderline fair.
The .40 round is a problem for almost everyone, when compared to 9mm and .45. Very sharp recoil that seems to have a "torquing" tendency about it. Furthermore, the Glock grip and trigger take a lot to get used to, esp if you've shot 1911's a lot like I had in the past.
Two things have helped me tremendously:
1) Lonewolf 3.5lb connectors--vastly improves that heavy "sproing" trigger!
2) Practice until you're blue in the face, or in my case, as much as you can afford in Wal-Mart WWB!
Keep at it and good luck.
Again, my opinionis the 1911 is the easiest handgun to shoot. It takes alot of practice to get used to the Glock or other "poly" guns. Evevery new one comes out the design is different. Trying to make them more ergonomic and not to look like a Glock. If it looks like a Glock, you'll probably buy a Glock. Which you did. My biggest problem is the sight picture, I'll try and resolve that with new sights; eventually. The grip requires getting used to also. I have to read about that sweet spot again. I don't know if I'm using it or not. There's always a sweet spot to find!
:ufo:
I believe new sights are in my future, too, because I prefer three dots, but I should be able to make progress with what I have. Same with the 3.5# connector - once I see some progress, I'll know I have the good habits in place, then I'll refine the equipment.
SDGlock23
02-09-2008, 09:59
Jaybo, Ameriglo.com has some great night sights. My Glock 20 wears a pair of operators, but you can get the standard 3 dot version too. Order online and put " GSSF " in at checkout and it drops the price $25. Ameriglo is good stuff.
As for the trigger, like others said, practice dry fire in your empty G20. Get a good feel for the trigger and when it's gonna break and be able to fire it without moving the pistol (not wobbling around - keep a good steady sight picture). My uncle got a Glock 19 a few months back and wanted me to help him a bit because he couldn't hit anything with it either. But it was only with the Glock, he's fine with other pistols. Work on proper grip and dry fire till you can't dry fire no more!
Are the Ameriglo sights stake on sights or screw on sights? I like that they have the suppressor sights - I see a can for the G21 in its future...
NYC Drew
02-09-2008, 10:19
Shooting accurately really only boils down to two things.
Yes, stance is important. Breath control is important. Follow thru is important. Grip is important too.
But the only two things that need to be controlled, and possibly mastered for accurate shooting are
1. Sights are aligned on the intended target.
2. Trigger press does not disturb #1 above.
For anyone that disputes otherwise, I have $800 to bet that I can shoot a 3", 10 shot group at 25ft, using only two fingers (thumb and middle finger) to LOOSELY hold a gun while firing.
Sheets, I'll even let YOU loosely hold the gun with TWO fingers (so long as you promise to keep the sights on the target) and I will press the trigger.
If you can get the 1st tip (pad) of your index finger on the trigger while maintaining a grip, you can shoot accurately.
If you are NOT shooting accurately, it could be any of the seven classic things. Each and every single one of them are readily identifiable, and correctible within 3 full magazines.
Now, the hard part is not to regress :). EVERYONE regresses. Which is why continous training is important.
For SPEED, weapons retention and follow up shots, what I have said above does not hold true. For those things stance, grip, breath control, etc are important. Still not important as front sight/trigger press...
'Drew
:)
The Pontificator
02-09-2008, 10:51
Shooting accurately really only boils down to two things.
Yes, stance is important. Breath control is important. Follow thru is important. Grip is important too.
But the only two things that need to be controlled, and possibly mastered for accurate shooting are
1. Sights are aligned on the intended target.
2. Trigger press does not disturb #1 above.
For anyone that disputes otherwise, I have $800 to bet that I can shoot a 3", 10 shot group at 25ft, using only two fingers (thumb and middle finger) to LOOSELY hold a gun while firing.
Sheets, I'll even let YOU loosely hold the gun with TWO fingers (so long as you promise to keep the sights on the target) and I will press the trigger.
If you can get the 1st tip (pad) of your index finger on the trigger while maintaining a grip, you can shoot accurately.
If you are NOT shooting accurately, it could be any of the seven classic things. Each and every single one of them are readily identifiable, and correctible within 3 full magazines.
Now, the hard part is not to regress :). EVERYONE regresses. Which is why continous training is important.
For SPEED, weapons retention and follow up shots, what I have said above does not hold true. For those things stance, grip, breath control, etc are important. Still not important as front sight/trigger press...
'Drew
:)
That's about it in a nutshell. "The Glock Trigger" really isn't an issue. It's about follow-through during the trigger stroke.
BustedFlush
02-09-2008, 11:08
This should be required reading for every Glock owner:
Linky: Trigger Technique 101 at GlockFAQ.com (http://www.glockfaq.com/trigger.htm)
This morning after shooting my 1911 at 20 yards, then switching to the G21, i found my self shooting a couple inches to the right :shocked:
NYC Drew
02-09-2008, 13:21
This morning after shooting my 1911 at 20 yards, then switching to the G21, i found my self shooting a couple inches to the right :shocked:
That's because you were still shooting a 1911 with a Glock in your hand. If I'd given you a 50 AE or Bewulf, you would have also shot that differently.
'Drew
cocked@locked
02-13-2008, 19:38
I too had problems at first switching from a gold cup 1911 to a glock platform, there where a couple of things that had to be readjusted, like posted above the trigger and grip are a completly different beast to tame, i also had to do a little dremel work to get the grip adjusted to my hand but once the trigger break point was learned and i retrained and adjusted my grip to my hand, a whole new world appeared before my eyes, i now shoot my 19 a helluva alot better than i shoot any of my other pistols, matter of fact i really dont shoot any of my other pistols anymore, every once in a while i will load up my luger and throw a mag or two of lead down range, but there grip angles are so similar its like shooting a thin framed glock, with practice the glock can be mastered and depended on to put rounds down range and on target, as posted above by ARCANGEL once you find that sweet spot it becomes second nature, im close two putting 12k on my current 2003 production glock 3rd gen g-19, it takes patience and practice to master form and function, but it can be achieved, and once achieved you will be glad that you took the time to gain the confidence of your pistol, you must master its limitations and its strong points, you must also make it an extension of your body, as natural as pointing your finger, some of these things may sound corny but that is what works for most of us shooters, you have to give patience to gain performance.:wavey:
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