.45 Super vs. 10mm for antipersonnel use

I will be purchasing my third Glock in the coming weeks. I am certain that I will be selecting a G20, G21, or G30. I will convert the G21 / G30 to accommodate .45 super if I do indeed select the caliber.

I have several specific questions:

1. Which is the more effective round for taking down a (human) target? I understand there are issues beyond grain count and speed, with which I have little knowledge. Penetration, expansion, etc. Taking these other items into account, which would be the more effective round...

2. Recommendation on best ammo (not interested in hand-loading) for .45 Super / 10mm available regardless of price or availability. I do not mind having to purchase via mail order or track down Winchester Ranger type ammo.

3. Does the G21 handle .45 super better than the G30? Are there any reliability issues (assuming they will only be used with .45 super) with either of the models? Any difference in ballistic performance?

4. What is the difference in recoil between G20 / G21 / G30 in terms of how it would effect follow-up shots?

THANKS!

[YosemiteSam357]

You might take this up in Caliber Corner to get a wider view of things.

Personally, I think either 10mm or .45 Super is overkill for self defense. If you're a cop who'll be chasing down bad guys and shooting through windshields, car doors, etc, it's one thing, but otherwise you're looking at serious potential overpenetration issues, which gets into the whole "collateral damage" thing...

-- Sam

[scoop]

yosam is right here.

[SELFDEFENSE]

1. Which is the more effective round for taking down a (human) target? I understand there are issues beyond grain count and speed, with which I have little knowledge. Penetration, expansion, etc. Taking these other items into account, which would be the more effective round...

The optimal combination of expansion (caliber increase of 150-200%) and penetration (having the bullet sitting just inside the skin on the opposite side of the assailant)is the Holy Grail of self-defense round selection. This cannot be perfectly anticipated since each shooting has a different path, angle, and interference of differing intervening body structures.

2. Recommendation on best ammo (not interested in hand-loading) for .45 Super / 10mm available regardless of price or availability. I do not mind having to purchase via mail order or track down Winchester Ranger type ammo.

I use Texas Ammo 230 gr. 45 Super and 45 Tactical in my Colt 1991-A1.
Triton has just come out with the the 450 SMC which is 45 Super by another name.

3. Does the G21 handle .45 super better than the G30? Are there any reliability issues (assuming they will only be used with .45 super) with either of the models? Any difference in ballistic performance?

I did not wish to modify my G21 to shoot the Super so I do not know; but I would not want to shoot the Super or SMC out of a 30.
However, if you could handle the 30 it might provide an unexpected benefit; a reduction in muzzle velocity which might increase the chance of bullet expansion rather than fragmentation. The problem is for JHPs which do not clog on clothing material, added velocity tends to create violent expansion leading to fragmentation and under-penetration (the opposite of what you might think would happen.)Underpenetration is a major factor in failures to stop assailants, so high speed JHPs like the Super may not be as good a SD round as they may appear from their gee-wiz velocity and energy figures (without even considering follow-up shot differences.) Remember the balance between expansion and penetration mentioned in question 1.
I am sending a box of Texas Ammo 230 gr. XTP-JHP 45 Super to Ammolab for testing and we will see if it fragments in ballistic gelatin. My guess is that it will frag and underpenetrate.

4. What is the difference in recoil between G20 / G21 / G30 in terms of how it would effect follow-up shots?

20 and 21 should be better than 30, but not a lot. The real follow-up shot difference is between .45 ACP and the Super/SMC. Noticeable difference in my Colt.

[go_ustp]

I've been reviewing the new ammo (on-line, haven't bought any yet) and am considering it for hunting deer.

From my reading you would do better with a 21 for this type of ammo because the 5" barrel would get the higher velocities these rounds offer. Some recommend using a 6" barrel, so going with a G30 would not be helpful - you would not get all your added benefit of the ammo.

Remember you have to go with a 22 or 24lb recoil spring in these also.

I just came back from the range with my 26, 21 and 30. I am thinking of going from 26 to 30 for ccw and would just use a proven performer like a Speer Gold Dot or other premium brand of ammo, Perhaps a Hydra-Shok, something in that range.

The 230gr bullet with a quality expanding bullet would be an awesome performer, and the extra power of the super/smc rounds would have significant disadvantages such as large muzzle flash, tremendous muzzle blast, overpenetration (city streets, apartments, drywall, you get the picture), plus the extra recoil makes the 2nd shot even harder to line up.

Thanks for your replies! I am going to go with the G20.

[rsilvers]

The G20 is nice in that it holds more ammo over a .45. The .45 is nice because it can use regular .45s, which are good for defense, and .45 Super for hunting. The downside being that the .45 takes up a lot of magazine space.

My latest belief is that all that matters for defense is expansion and penetration. Anything more than, perhaps, 16 inches of penetration has little to no addition value (unless you need to first shoot through glass). So, does a 10mm or .45 super expand more than a .40 or .45 if the penetration depth is tuned (with bullet design and muzzle velocity) to result in 16 inches of penetration. I think no. There are .40 and .45 bullets which will go in 16 inches and expand to .70 or even .75 inches. So using more energy to do the same thing is mostly just less efficient and/or will have negative effects like recoil and muzzle blast.

For hunting it makes sense, because you want the same expansion but want more than 16" of depth, so you need 10mm or .45 Super.

A 165 or 180 grain .40, as boring as it is, is optimal for defense. A .45 would be better if the round fails to expand, but you have to trade that off against reduced magazine capacity. A 125 grain .357 Sig is about the same, unless it fails to expand (happens often), in which case it is worse, although it is flatter shooting and MIGHT feed better (not that a .40 has ever failed to feed in any of my Glocks).

That being said, my Glock 20 arrives tomorrow :) I have ProLoad 180 GDHP on order. Will I carry it for defense? You bet'ya. Once I get tired of the weight, it will become a plinking gun for when I take small women shooting for the first time.