Any way to scratch my Sawed-Off itch legally?

[emt1581]

I reeealllyyy want a sawed off 12ga. double barrel shotgun. Honestly it's more for the novelty of owning one than for a specific purpose.

Is there any way I can legally buy a gun and cut the barrel down as short as I want...?

I know all about the $5 and $200 stamps and I've gone that route before. However, I'm pretty sure I can't pay any amount to own such a thing...as simple, cheap and easy as it is to make...

What do you think?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[rkba_net]

And they say there is no such thing as a dumb questtion...

[r2kba]

I reeealllyyy want a sawed off 12ga. double barrel shotgun. Honestly it's more for the novelty of owning one than for a specific purpose.

Is there any way I can legally buy a gun and cut the barrel down as short as I want...?

I know all about the $5 and $200 stamps and I've gone that route before. However, I'm pretty sure I can't pay any amount to own such a thing...as simple, cheap and easy as it is to make...

What do you think?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


Heh RKBA_NET.:whistling:


DUDE....EMT...Where in the HELL have you been? Ever heard of a Form-1? It's called a short barreled shotgun.

:wavey:

http://www.cop-talk.net/pix/guns/SBS/P4121409_1bbs.jpg

[emt1581]

Heh RKBA_NET.:whistling:


DUDE....EMT...Where in the HELL have you been? Ever heard of a Form-1? It's called a short barreled shotgun.

:wavey:

http://www.cop-talk.net/pix/guns/SBS/P4121409_1bbs.jpg

I've been around... ;)

I got the SBS part, but that can only be made from a shotgun that was never a full length shotgun...right? ...Or is that the rules for an AOW?

So if I go through all the motions of the $200 stamp, Class III dealer fee, etc...I can have my sawed-off?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[USMCsilver]

A short barreled shotgun falls under the AOW category -- any other weapon. It isn't a SBR (short barreled rifle) so there isn't a $200 tax -- it's a $5 tax.

Simply send off a Form 1 and a $5 check, and when you get the paperwork back, cut that puppy down.

[emt1581]

A short barreled shotgun falls under the AOW category -- any other weapon. It isn't a SBR (short barreled rifle) so there isn't a $200 tax -- it's a $5 tax.

Simply send off a Form 1 and a $5 check, and when you get the paperwork back, cut that puppy down.

Again, I'm pretty sure that in order for it to be $5 it has to NEVER had been (not sure if my grammar is correct there...) a longer barrel shotgun. That is, if it ever had a barrel longer than 17inches on it, and it's to be reduced, it can't have it's barrel cut down.

Again, I'm looking for definitive NFA rules here...and I reealllyyy don't want to call the ATF.

Oh and R2KBA said it was a SBS...not a SBR...

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[Slagged]

I thought that it was an AOW only if it did not have a stock, like the Serbu Super Shotty. If it has a stock, is less than 26" over all or has a barrel less than 18", then it must be done on a Form1 with a $200 stamp. I believe that it is registered as a Destructive Device. Please correct me if I am wrong. SBS's are the one NFA item that I do not own.

[emt1581]

I thought that it was an AOW only if it did not have a stock, like the Serbu Super Shotty. If it has a stock, is less than 26" over all or has a barrel less than 18", then it must be done on a Form1 with a $200 stamp. I believe that it is registered as a Destructive Device. Please correct me if I am wrong. SBS's are the one NFA item that I do not own.

Unfortunately I think you are correct. I've looked into this several times, and now it just clicked why I don't own one...my state allows everything EXCEPT DD's...so this sucks...

I suppose for a definite answer I could call around to a few Class III dealers in my area.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[CAR-AR-M16]

You take your current shotgun and file an ATF Form 1 ($200) and when it comes back approved you can cut down your barrel to the length you specified on your form 1. Any shotgun can be made into a SBS. Only a shotgun that never had a stock can be made into an AOW. Also AOW's only cost $5 to TRANSFER, but the still cost $200 to make on a form 1 for a person who is not a licensed manufacturer.

I just submitted a form 1 to cut my Rem 870 down to 14". Mailed form 1 on 3 Jan and it was approved on 12 Feb. Just waiting on the mail now.

[emt1581]

You take your current shotgun and file an ATF Form 1 ($200) and when it comes back approved you can cut down your barrel to the length you specified on your form 1. Any shotgun can be made into a SBS. Only a shotgun that never had a stock can be made into an AOW. Also AOW's only cost $5 to TRANSFER, but the still cost $200 to make on a form 1 for a person who is not a licensed manufacturer.

I just submitted a form 1 to cut my Rem 870 down to 14". Mailed form 1 on 3 Jan and it was approved on 12 Feb. Just waiting on the mail now.


So you are going through the process now?

If I'm understanding you correctly...you bought the gun, went to a dealer explained what you wanted to do, filled out the paperwork, and are now just waiting for your permission slip ($200 stamp) to come back so you can cut it down...right?

I could have sworn that the law considered a sawed-off double barrel shotgun to be a DD...

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[CAR-AR-M16]

So you are going through the process now?

If I'm understanding you correctly...you bought the gun, went to a dealer explained what you wanted to do, filled out the paperwork, and are now just waiting for your permission slip ($200 stamp) to come back so you can cut it down...right?

I could have sworn that the law considered a sawed-off double barrel shotgun to be a DD...

Thanks!

-Emt1581

No dealer was needed. I took a Remington 870 that I have had for years. I had my name, city & state engraved on it since I am the one manufacturing the NFA weapon. I submitted an ATF form 1 to build a short barreled shotgun. They approved my form 1 on 12 Feb and as soon as I have the form 1 back in my hands I will take the barrel to a local gunsmith and have him cut the barrel to 14".

Go read the "SBR FAQ" at AR15.com. The same info applys to an SBS. Here is a link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=22&t=199905

[emt1581]

No dealer was needed. I took a Remington 870 that I have had for years. I had my name, city & state engraved on it since I am the one manufacturing the NFA weapon. I submitted an ATF form 1 to build a short barreled shotgun. They approved my form 1 on 12 Feb and as soon as I have the form 1 back in my hands I will take the barrel to a local gunsmith and have him cut the barrel to 14".

Holy crap!! No dealer (fee)?!?!?!

Someone pinch me!:wow:

How do I get the paperwork?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[CAR-AR-M16]

Holy crap!! No dealer (fee)?!?!?!

Someone pinch me!:wow:

How do I get the paperwork?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Paperwork can be ordered from the ATF at no charge. Here is a link to their form distribution center: http://www.atf.treas.gov/dcof/index.htm

You will need 2 form 1's (F 1 (5320.1)), 2 FBI fingerprint cards (FBI FD-258LE) and 1 Cert. of Compliance form (F 5330.20). Read the SBR FAQ link I posted above for instructions on how to fill out the forms, just use "short barreled shotgun" instead of "short barreled rifle".

[USMCsilver]

Here are the forms if needed:

http://www.titleii.com/Forms.htm

Sorry about being wrong above. It happens from time to time. Hehehe.

[emt1581]

Here are the forms if needed:

http://www.titleii.com/Forms.htm

Sorry about being wrong above. It happens from time to time. Hehehe.


No big deal!

I thought the ATF.gov/nfa ...or something similar...was the site.

I appreciate it. Thanks!

-Emt1581

[UZIFORME]

Unless you need a buttstock the best part of the AOW vs a SBS is that the AOW can cross state lines without ATF prior approval. The SBS must have ATF approval before it crosses state lines.

[emt1581]

Unless you need a buttstock the best part of the AOW vs a SBS is that the AOW can cross state lines without ATF prior approval. The SBS must have ATF approval before it crosses state lines.

Ain't that a quirky loophole?! :dunno:

I wonder what the rationale behind it is?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[tonyc]

I want it so short it can be mistaken for a flare gun

[emt1581]

I want it so short it can be mistaken for a flare gun

Are you still talking about a shotgun? ;)


Seriously though, we'l talk length in a thread soon.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[r2kba]

Just remember, you can't make an AOW out of a shotgun which has had a stock attached from the factory.

It has to be a virgin receiver from the factory.

[r2kba]

Ain't that a quirky loophole?! :dunno:

I wonder what the rationale behind it is?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


It's not a loop-hole. It's how ATF regulates AOW's vs SBS's.

[r2kba]

Here are the forms if needed:

http://www.titleii.com/Forms.htm

Sorry about being wrong above. It happens from time to time. Hehehe.



Nobody is perfect. One of the selling points is the 5$ transfer fee's, however the MFG of the AOW usually has to incorporate the 200$ Form1 fee for the AOW into the price of the gun purchase.

[emt1581]

Just remember, you can't make an AOW out of a shotgun which has had a stock attached from the factory.

It has to be a virgin receiver from the factory.

Holy tripple post batman!

I'm curious if I can ask any manufacturers to just not include a stock on the gun...odd request but not exactly that hard to do...or does the law say absolutely positively it must have a stock attached....or else it's an AOW?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[CAR-AR-M16]

Holy tripple post batman!

I'm curious if I can ask any manufacturers to just not include a stock on the gun...odd request but not exactly that hard to do...or does the law say absolutely positively it must have a stock attached....or else it's an AOW?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Both Mossberg and Remington sell shotguns with only a pistol grip (no stock). These can legally be converted to AOW's, but like r2kba mentioned it would still cost you $200 to make it. An 07/02 FFL/SOT manufacturer could make it and then transfer it to you for $5 (plus whatever fee he would charge for the conversion). Here is a pic of an 870 AOW made by Scattergun Technologies that I used to own. I sold it to make an 870 SBS (more versatile in my opinion).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/CAR-AR-M16/870AOW.jpg

[chakup]

Yep just find a friendly SOT to make it for you.

[emt1581]

Yep just find a friendly SOT to make it for you.

SOT?

Again, why can't the manufacturer just leave it without a stock when they ship it to me? Would it be violating some law? Couldn't I buy a double barreled shotgun with a 20", 30" or whatever length barrel, and as a customization just ask it be shipped with a pistol grip attached. Then when it got here, I could send in my $5 and cut the barrel to whatever I wanted...

Why wouldn't that work?

A ton of manufacturers make pistol gripped shotguns (I think Mossy calls theirs the persuader or something along those lines)...

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[emt1581]

Both Mossberg and Remington sell shotguns with only a pistol grip (no stock). These can legally be converted to AOW's, but like r2kba mentioned it would still cost you $200 to make it. An 07/02 FFL/SOT manufacturer could make it and then transfer it to you for $5 (plus whatever fee he would charge for the conversion). Here is a pic of an 870 AOW made by Scattergun Technologies that I used to own. I sold it to make an 870 SBS (more versatile in my opinion).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/CAR-AR-M16/870AOW.jpg

Just out of curiosity, why did you find one more versatile than the other?

My mossy mariner has a 17 (or is it 18) inch barrel on it which is the shortest legally allowed without a tax stamp. For a pump I love it! Huge capacity (holds 9rds.)! And it's VERY durable. How long was the barrel on the scattergun?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[CAR-AR-M16]

SOT?

Again, why can't the manufacturer just leave it without a stock when they ship it to me? Would it be violating some law? Couldn't I buy a double barreled shotgun with a 20", 30" or whatever length barrel, and as a customization just ask it be shipped with a pistol grip attached. Then when it got here, I could send in my $5 and cut the barrel to whatever I wanted...

Why wouldn't that work?

A ton of manufacturers make pistol gripped shotguns (I think Mossy calls theirs the persuader or something along those lines)...

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Because AOW's only TRANSFER for $5. They cost $200 to MAKE. An 07/02 FFL/SOT pays $500 a year to be able to manufacture NFA weapons which is why he could build it tax free. You are not a licensed manufacturer, so it would cost you $200 to make an AOW. If you decide to sell it you can transfer it to the next guy for $5.

[CAR-AR-M16]

Just out of curiosity, why did you find one more versatile than the other?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Because an SBS can have a stock or a pistol grip and I can change back and forth. With the AOW I am stuck with just the grip.

How long was the barrel on the scattergun?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

12.5"

[emt1581]

Because AOW's only TRANSFER for $5. They cost $200 to MAKE. An 07/02 FFL/SOT pays $500 a year to be able to manufacture NFA weapons which is why he could build it tax free. You are not a licensed manufacturer, so it would cost you $200 to make an AOW. If you decide to sell it you can transfer it to the next guy for $5.

If I am understanding you correctly, I couldn't simply ask for a shotgun shipped without a stock because technically THAT would be an AOW..which the manufacturer did not pay to build...

I guess it wasn't a good idea. However, does the manufacuturer have to pay a certain fee/tax per gun or just once a year type thing...?

If it's once a year, then a manufacurer who already makes another model of AOW could just ship me a stockless gun and wouldn't be violating any laws...I just feel like being technical and nit-picky tonight...:supergrin:

Thanks!:)

-Emt1581

[r2kba]

If I am understanding you correctly, I couldn't simply ask for a shotgun shipped without a stock because technically THAT would be an AOW..which the manufacturer did not pay to build...

Thanks!:)

-Emt1581

If it can be ordered stock-less is very unlikely. From what I know, remington wont sell stripped receivers to anyone. If NFA considers a bird-head grip a stock, I dont know. Probably not, but they dont always make sense.

[CAR-AR-M16]

Like I said, both Remington and Mossberg make title 1 shotguns with only a pistol grip. They have 18" barrels and are over 26" overall, so they are considered a regular shotgun (see: http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=20889). If they were under 18" barrel/26" overall than they would have to have been registered as an AOW or SBS and would then fall under the NFA and would require a transfer with a form 4 and either a $200 tax (SBS) or a $5 tax (AOW). If you want to take a shotgun you already own and make it into an SBS or AOW you would have to file a form 1 and pay $200 either way (a licesened manufacturer does not pay tax to make them since he already pays a yearly tax to manufacture). To make an AOW though you would have to use a shotgun that came from the factory without a stock. If you want an AOW you would be best to buy one that is already registered as an AOW as it would transfer for $5 on a form 4. Serbu Firearms makes both Remington and Mossberg based AOW's. Here is a link:http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

[OEF_VET]

Gentlemen,

Please allow me to give you a lesson on AOW's and SBS's. For the record, I am a Type 07 FFL / Class 2 SOT (Special Occupancy Taxpayer). In other words, I am a licensed manufacturer of firearms, including NFA weapons other than Destructive Devices.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 defines a shotgun as a shoulder-fired, smooth-bore weapon, with a barrel at least 18" in length, and an overall length of at least 26".

A short-barreled shotgun (SBS) is a shoulder-fired, smooth-bore weapon, with a barrel shorter than 18" in length, OR an overall length less than 26".

One of the types of weapons that qualifies as an AOW is a smooth-bore handgun. Weapons like the Serbu Super Shorty or the 870 AOW's I build are allowed to be manufactured as AOW's because they have never had a shoulder stock attached, therefore, they've never been intended to be shoulder-fired - one of the primary descriptors of shotguns or short-barrel shotguns. If a smooth-bore weapon has ever had a shoulder-stock attached, it is a shotgun, and can not be registered as an AOW. Complicated? Yes. Silly? Yes. But, it's nonetheless the law.

If a particular style of NFA weapon is legal in your State, you may build one using an ATF Form 1. The tax for a non-FFL/SOT to build an NFA weapon is $200, regardless of what type of NFA weapon.

To transfer an NFA weapon, you would use a Form 4. The tax to transfer an AOW is $5. The tax to transfer an NFA besides an AOW, whether it is a machine gun, an SBR, an SBS, or a DD, is $200.

There are no manufacturers of double-barreled shotguns who sell their recievers without a stock. There are some double-barreled AOW's for sale, the Ithaca Auto & Burglar's. But, they are a bit pricey, when you can find one.

If you were able to convince a manufacturer to sell you a bare reciever, it would be legal, as the gun wouldn't be considered an AOW until a short barrel were installed. This is another of the conundrums in the National Firearms Act. The BATFE says that you must be 18 to buy a longgun, and 21 to buy a handgun or NFA weapon from an FFL. They also say that you must be 21 to buy a pistol-gripped shotgun from an FFL, even with an 18" barrel. (They even prosecuted an FFL for selling one to an 18-year old, who used the gun in a crime.) Now, they say that the pistol grip means it's not a shoulder-fired firearm, or longgun. If they require you to be 21 because it's not a longgun, that would imply that it's a handgun, right? Well, if it were, then it'd be an AOW, as it'd be a smooth-bore handgun. But, that would mean you'd have to go through an SOT and pay the $5 tax. However, you don't have to do so, if the gun came from the manufacturer with a pistol grip and 18" barrel. It would seem that BATFE has unofficially extended the SBS measurement requirements to cover AOW's, even though NFA34 doesn't mention measurement requirements for AOW's. Complicated? Yes. Silly? Yes. But, it's nonetheless the law.

[OEF_VET]

Oh, and here is a link to my company's web site, specifically to our AOW page:
http://www.elite-tactical.com/aow.html

And, some photos of our products:

http://www.elite-tactical.com/aow9723.jpg

http://www.elite-tactical.com/aow-mesa7708sm.jpg

[CAR-AR-M16]

Gentlemen,

Please allow me to give you a lesson on AOW's and SBS's. For the record, I am a Type 07 FFL / Class 2 SOT (Special Occupancy Taxpayer). In other words, I am a licensed manufacturer of firearms, including NFA weapons other than Destructive Devices.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 defines a shotgun as a shoulder-fired, smooth-bore weapon, with a barrel at least 18" in length, and an overall length of at least 26".

A short-barreled shotgun (SBS) is a shoulder-fired, smooth-bore weapon, with a barrel shorter than 18" in length, OR an overall length less than 26".

One of the types of weapons that qualifies as an AOW is a smooth-bore handgun. Weapons like the Serbu Super Shorty or the 870 AOW's I build are allowed to be manufactured as AOW's because they have never had a shoulder stock attached, therefore, they've never been intended to be shoulder-fired - one of the primary descriptors of shotguns or short-barrel shotguns. If a smooth-bore weapon has ever had a shoulder-stock attached, it is a shotgun, and can not be registered as an AOW. Complicated? Yes. Silly? Yes. But, it's nonetheless the law.

If a particular style of NFA weapon is legal in your State, you may build one using an ATF Form 1. The tax for a non-FFL/SOT to build an NFA weapon is $200, regardless of what type of NFA weapon.

To transfer an NFA weapon, you would use a Form 4. The tax to transfer an AOW is $5. The tax to transfer an NFA besides an AOW, whether it is a machine gun, an SBR, an SBS, or a DD, is $200.

There are no manufacturers of double-barreled shotguns who sell their recievers without a stock. There are some double-barreled AOW's for sale, the Ithaca Auto & Burglar's. But, they are a bit pricey, when you can find one.

If you were able to convince a manufacturer to sell you a bare reciever, it would be legal, as the gun wouldn't be considered an AOW until a short barrel were installed. This is another of the conundrums in the National Firearms Act. The BATFE says that you must be 18 to buy a longgun, and 21 to buy a handgun or NFA weapon from an FFL. They also say that you must be 21 to buy a pistol-gripped shotgun from an FFL, even with an 18" barrel. (They even prosecuted an FFL for selling one to an 18-year old, who used the gun in a crime.) Now, they say that the pistol grip means it's not a shoulder-fired firearm, or longgun. If they require you to be 21 because it's not a longgun, that would imply that it's a handgun, right? Well, if it were, then it'd be an AOW, as it'd be a smooth-bore handgun. But, that would mean you'd have to go through an SOT and pay the $5 tax. However, you don't have to do so, if the gun came from the manufacturer with a pistol grip and 18" barrel. It would seem that BATFE has unofficially extended the SBS measurement requirements to cover AOW's, even though NFA34 doesn't mention measurement requirements for AOW's. Complicated? Yes. Silly? Yes. But, it's nonetheless the law.

OEF_VET,

I was hoping you would come along to add to this discussion since I knew you were an 07/02 who made 870 based AOW's. I believe you and I are saying the same thing, you just did a much better job of saying it.

[r2kba]

Good posting on the F.A.Q. on SBS/AOW.



( Isin't this already posted ??? )

[OEF_VET]

Good posting on the F.A.Q. on SBS/AOW.



( Isin't this already posted ??? )

Honestly, the definitions of SBR, SBS, and AOW's in the FAQ aren't as well written as they could be. Reading the FAQ could easily give someone the impression that if their shotgun currently only had a PG, it'd be an AOW. It doesn't stress the importance of the fact that the gun must NEVER have had a shoulder stock. Also, the AOW definition includes SBR's which only have pistol grips. Those are not AOW's. The FAQ is a good resource, but it's not perfect.

[r2kba]

Honestly, the definitions of SBR, SBS, and AOW's in the FAQ aren't as well written as they could be. Reading the FAQ could easily give someone the impression that if their shotgun currently only had a PG, it'd be an AOW. It doesn't stress the importance of the fact that the gun must NEVER have had a shoulder stock. Also, the AOW definition includes SBR's which only have pistol grips. Those are not AOW's. The FAQ is a good resource, but it's not perfect.



Ah. Yeah it should be updated then.


Did EMT even READ it though?? hmm ???:whistling:

[UZIFORME]

If the original poster had spent less time talking,learning,listening and more time buying he would already have his guage by now.

[dkbrucedvm]

OK, please be patient with this one...I'm not trying to be difficult, just to understand.

Where do weapons like the Taurus Judge (revolver, fires .410 shot shells) fit in? Or, to be even worse, if I load a .38 revolver with rat shot, has it changed weapons classifications? Neither weapon ever had a shounder stock, so it would seem in either case, I've "manufactured" an AOW because it's now firing shot shells....

[OEF_VET]

OK, please be patient with this one...I'm not trying to be difficult, just to understand.

Where do weapons like the Taurus Judge (revolver, fires .410 shot shells) fit in? Or, to be even worse, if I load a .38 revolver with rat shot, has it changed weapons classifications? Neither weapon ever had a shounder stock, so it would seem in either case, I've "manufactured" an AOW because it's now firing shot shells....

The Judge and your .38 revolver have rifled barrels, as opposed to the smooth-bores of shotguns and shotgun-based AOW's.

[dkbrucedvm]

Gotcha, thanks. I guess that makes sense.

[CAR-AR-M16]

I mentioned on page 1 that I had sold my 870 AOW and was waiting on my form1 to make my regular 870 an SBS. Got the form 1 back and got my 870 SBS put together. Below are the specs and a pic.

Remington Factory 14” Barrel (modified choke) with Rifle Sights.
Speedfeed Forearm.
Factory Synthetic Buttstock with R3 Recoil Pad.
Scattergun Technologies 1 Shot Mag Extension w/Vertical Sling Attachment.
Scattergun Technologies Hi Vis Follower w/Extra Power Spring.
Vang-Comp Jumbo Head Safety.
Mesa Tactical 6 Shot Shell Carrier.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v389/CAR-AR-M16/870SBS.jpg