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Bren
02-13-2008, 10:31
I just got an email that BGSL has closed all of the pistol and rifle shooting ranges, pits, etc.

Seems like an overreaction that will cost membership and we'll see whether the club recovers or closes. I was already re-evaluating my membership in light of the pistol club's BS, so I guess I'm now looking for a new place to compete and doing my practice at Franklin Co.

Berretta9
02-13-2008, 11:38
So they don't want any shooting of any kind ??? Man that place is on a bad downward spiral. Come to Silver Creek. We'd love to have ya.

Bren
02-13-2008, 12:36
So they don't want any shooting of any kind ??? Man that place is on a bad downward spiral. Come to Silver Creek. We'd love to have ya.

They still allow shotgun shooting at clays, archery, airguns and muzzleloaders, just no metallic cartridge guns. Not sure how permanent the ban is.

I did just email some people about shooting at Silver Creek. If they get some IDPA going, we would definitely come.

Aaron Little
02-13-2008, 13:36
Wow. That is really too bad. I hope they get things worked out. I have never been but I several students that shoot there or at least did shoot there.

Berretta9
02-13-2008, 16:59
Sounds like Hillary is running the place. Or would it be O'Bama

Bren
02-13-2008, 17:55
Wow. That is really too bad. I hope they get things worked out. I have never been but I several students that shoot there or at least did shoot there.

Since I PMed you a few times a while back about joining so you teach out there, I have to admit I have come to agree with the other people who warned you about it.

domzilla9
02-13-2008, 19:52
I did just email some people about shooting at Silver Creek. If they get some IDPA going, we would definitely come.

PM inbound

Aaron Little
02-13-2008, 21:03
Since I PMed you a few times a while back about joining so you teach out there, I have to admit I have come to agree with the other people who warned you about it.
No worries Bren.

fomeister
02-14-2008, 20:01
All is not lost. I have commitments that we will have our RO Class, and our USPSA, IDPA, and SASS matches back open real soon, the meeting is Tuesday night, and I think we will prevail. There are some concerns that may or may not be valid, so they have to be treated as real for now. The long term solutions will be costly and slow, but if our matches are saved, we are still in business, but in sleep mode. Let's not overreact just yet, though some think I did by rallying the troops.

domzilla9
02-14-2008, 20:27
This is great news, cause I was gonna cry. Really.

rledwards
02-14-2008, 20:50
Sounds like Hillary is running the place. Or would it be O'Bama

Probably more like Chicken Little.

Bren
02-15-2008, 06:58
All is not lost. I have commitments that we will have our RO Class, and our USPSA, IDPA, and SASS matches back open real soon, the meeting is Tuesday night, and I think we will prevail. There are some concerns that may or may not be valid, so they have to be treated as real for now. The long term solutions will be costly and slow, but if our matches are saved, we are still in business, but in sleep mode. Let's not overreact just yet, though some think I did by rallying the troops.

I hope so, but in the mean time, I'm planning to start shooting more at other clubs, like Silver Creek, as soon as I have time to shoot again.

wprebeck
02-15-2008, 08:24
I'm guessing this means no outdoor GSSF shoot this year?

fomeister
02-15-2008, 08:56
Probably more like Chicken Little.

There are a few who think the sky is falling for sure. We are a shooting range, not unlike hundreds of others around the country where you and I have shot. There are inherent risks, but the NRA blessed our pits a few years ago. I don't disagree with closing the rifle and GP range and putting in some vision baffles to reduce the height that muzzles can see the backstop, but I totally think the pits are as safe as any I have seen in the US. We have insurance. I just don't get it, and I intend to do everything I can to get those ranges open.

fomeister
02-15-2008, 08:57
GSSF is still on AFIK.

domzilla9
02-15-2008, 12:22
I joined IDPA today. Give us a month or two and we'll have an IDPA match at SilverCreek. I don't know what day day it will be but if you have a suggestion for me please pm me.

Berretta9
02-15-2008, 16:17
Even if they start shooting there again, who knows for how long. Whoever is running the place has lost it. Do you guys get you memebership dues back since they are not delivering what they sold you ( a club with pistol and rifle ranges) ??

fomeister
02-16-2008, 06:53
Even if they start shooting there again, who knows for how long. Whoever is running the place has lost it. Do you guys get you memebership dues back since they are not delivering what they sold you ( a club with pistol and rifle ranges) ??

While I understand that POV, it is premature. Besides, for me, there is no other place to go.

TreehugginGlock
02-16-2008, 18:01
I joined IDPA today. Give us a month or two and we'll have an IDPA match at SilverCreek. I don't know what day day it will be but if you have a suggestion for me please pm me.Let me know if I can be of help. I don't profess to be an expert by any means, but I have been shooting IDPA for a little over a year. You are welcome to pick my brain, but I also know some folks who can answers almost all of our questions about putting together a club, too. I would be willing to take the SO course if we could get one together and help out at some of the local matches. too.

A local Louisville area club? That sounds very exciting!

Houngan
02-18-2008, 14:28
I joined IDPA today. Give us a month or two and we'll have an IDPA match at SilverCreek. I don't know what day day it will be but if you have a suggestion for me please pm me.

I would be game for any Saturday, or the first Sunday (replacing the BGSL USPSA match.)

Did confirmations ever go out for the RO class that was to be held at BGSL? I emailed and sent payment the day I heard about it, but haven't heard anything back.

H.

domzilla9
02-18-2008, 15:07
TreeHugger,

I am glad that you want to help. Technically, if and when approved by SilverCreek's BoD, it will be a Sellersburg IN IDPA Club, if that makes a difference.

Houngan,

I 've had some phone conversations with some folks who are lot closer to the action in Wilmore than those of us in Louisville and everyone seems to very confident that BGSL's matches, both IDPA and USPSA, will soon be reinstated. I am very glad to hear this. I don't know what soon means, but I am trying to plan accordingly.

Right now we're looking hard at the 1st Saturday of every month for Silver Creek's IDPA match. This conflicts with the Newburgh Indiana Match but doesn't conflict with the Columbia (2nd Saturday), Wilmore/BGSL (3rd Sat), Bowling Green (4th Sat) matches. COF count and fees and setup/tear down will be comparable to what shooters have see at other matches in the local area.

Lin Edwards has given us a lot of advice and we feel that we have benefited greatly from his experience and hope to continue to. I can't thank him enough.

AFAIK, the NROI class in Wilmore is still on for this weekend. I'm planning on attending. I'll pm Fomeister, or maybe he'll reply on this thread.

TreehugginGlock
02-18-2008, 18:10
TreeHugger,

I am glad that you want to help. Technically, if and when approved by SilverCreek's BoD, it will be a Sellersburg IN IDPA Club, if that makes a difference.



As a member of SilverCreek, I have no problem with that, but I would think that the membership would get a vote, too. I don't anticipate a problem with getting this put in place since most meetings are filled with discussions on how to bring in more folks to the competitions and generate more revenue for the club.

fomeister
02-18-2008, 20:43
I would be game for any Saturday, or the first Sunday (replacing the BGSL USPSA match.)

Did confirmations ever go out for the RO class that was to be held at BGSL? I emailed and sent payment the day I heard about it, but haven't heard anything back.

H.

Matt, I have your check and the class is still on. Spread the word. Thanks,
Mike

Bren
02-20-2008, 17:48
I understand that, at the meeting last night, the board voted to keep everything closed.

Rhandhali
02-21-2008, 08:12
They're also talking about putting up "baffles", whatever those are, and setting up a tube range. The ranges will be opening up with safety officers.

http://www.bgslinc.com/modules.php?name=BGSL_News&file=fullnews&news_id=29

It looks like I won't be renewing my membership.

Berretta9
02-21-2008, 08:41
What about the pistol pits ?? Looks like they are making improvements on the rifle range and the GP range.

Rhandhali
02-21-2008, 08:45
What about the pistol pits ?? Looks like they are making improvements on the rifle range and the GP range.

No word about the pits. I'm not sure about everyone else but I don't see the need in hemorrhaging a significant portion of the club's annual budget on range officers. I'm not also keen on the idea of having to shoot through a tube - I find it kind of insulting actually.

Out of curiosity I wonder why the board is so keen to start squandering money left right and indifferent?

amr40509
02-21-2008, 10:32
I HATE the tube ranges. I guess they are ok if you only shoot scoped, but with open sights they really are a pain.

I was just about to call them to buy a membership, but I think that in light of this I will have to consider myself lucky to have not just written them a check. Sounds like the end of an era.

Bren
02-21-2008, 10:43
As I understand it, it's fairly possible there was never a problem with any of the ranges - the evidence I've heard sounds a little sketchy. Nobody has even claimed there is a problem with the pistol pits or bullseye range. I suspect a lot of people, including me, if things don't change a whole lot, quick, will not renew, and a lot of potential new members won't join. Add the cost of paid range officers to that, and we may not even have to consider whether to renew.

Berretta9
02-21-2008, 16:16
Are they saying that will re open them in the future ??

domzilla9
02-21-2008, 16:23
a "tube range"?

Is this what they're talking about?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4509301.html

Uh, that looks like fun. :whistling:

Blaker
02-21-2008, 17:55
I HATE the tube ranges. I guess they are ok if you only shoot scoped, but with open sights they really are a pain.

I was just about to call them to buy a membership, but I think that in light of this I will have to consider myself lucky to have not just written them a check. Sounds like the end of an era.

+1

Tube range suck and I too was seriously looking in to joining. Glad I didn't yet...I can shoot at tube range for free. Even then I don't like shooting out of them.

The main reason I was going to join was for the rifle range and the pistol matches.

Do you have to be a member to participate in the pistol matches? What are the cost involved if this is possible?

Rhandhali
02-21-2008, 18:27
As I understand it, it's fairly possible there was never a problem with any of the ranges - the evidence I've heard sounds a little sketchy. Nobody has even claimed there is a problem with the pistol pits or bullseye range. I suspect a lot of people, including me, if things don't change a whole lot, quick, will not renew, and a lot of potential new members won't join. Add the cost of paid range officers to that, and we may not even have to consider whether to renew.

You know I'll bet that they already have people in mind who are going to be hired on as range officers. Are any of you all going to be at the meeting on the 4th of March? I'm going see if I can't get the evening off from work and head out there.

The sad thing is I only heard about this because a co-worker, who isn't even a member, asked me about it.

Bren
02-22-2008, 04:40
Do you have to be a member to participate in the pistol matches? What are the cost involved if this is possible?

No, matches are open to nonmembers, but you save a few dollars on each one as a member. If you shoot a couple of different things, like IDPA and USPSA, and go to all the matches, you save more than annual membership costs, I believe.

Blaker
02-22-2008, 13:00
No, matches are open to nonmembers, but you save a few dollars on each one as a member. If you shoot a couple of different things, like IDPA and USPSA, and go to all the matches, you save more than annual membership costs, I believe.

Thanks for the response.

I probably wouldn't be able to make every match, as the BGSL is over an hour away from me. I'm in southeastern Kentucky, but I would like to make maybe a match or so a month.

Someone was telling me that the Glock matches are the best ones to start with.

I want to shoot something simple at first without a lot of mag changes and moving around.

Rhandhali
02-22-2008, 13:37
I can't help but wonder, if they do go with full time range officers, how much membership dues would go up and how many hours/days that the ranges will be made unavailable because they don't want to have an officer out there. I work most weekends and I doubt they're going to be paying someone to sit out there on a wednesday morning when I have time to go shooting.

Bren
02-22-2008, 19:27
Thanks for the response.

I probably wouldn't be able to make every match, as the BGSL is over an hour away from me. I'm in southeastern Kentucky, but I would like to make maybe a match or so a month.

Someone was telling me that the Glock matches are the best ones to start with.

I want to shoot something simple at first without a lot of mag changes and moving around.

I live an hour away. That isn't much for a couple of matches a month.

fomeister
02-23-2008, 11:10
The solutions to the GP, Rifle, and Bullseye ranges differ greatly from the ones in the pits. In short, I think we are going to have to give up rifles in the pits for a while, and close bay 3 and the north berm of 3&4. There will likely be some sort of wall/eyebrow/baffle built at the top of the berms. I hate all of this, but it is what it looks like we are going to have to do to get back to business as usual. The first two solutions I mentioned will be proposed to get us open, then the construction begins.

KYgundoc
02-25-2008, 14:29
So how did the RO class go?

domzilla9
02-25-2008, 20:17
The RO class was great. The business with BGSL was disturbing and depressing.

fomeister
02-27-2008, 08:10
Dear BGSL Pistol Division Member:

Great news! Last night the BGSL Board of Directors voted on a motion to re-open the Practical Shooting Pits for range officer supervised events only such as matches and instructional courses. In the interest of safety during these events the following new rule changes will be applied:

1. The North berm of Pit#1 is now a no shoot zone and signs will be posted as such.
2. Suspend all shooting in bay 3 of Pit#1.
3. Rifle use will be restricted to bays 4 and 5 of Pit#1.
4. Shooting will be restricted to targets no further than 12 yards in all bays.
5. Institute a mandatory stage safety review by the range and safety officers group after setup and prior to a match start.
6. Target height will be restricted to 5 feet at the shoulders.
7. All prone shooting will be prohibited.
8. Use of only forward falling Pepperpopper targets.
9. Use 8 or smaller steel plates for rearward falling targets.
10. Use only 45 degree steel that allows for all the lead to settle at the base for Cowboy Action Matches.
11. Require range and safety officers to report all safety occurrences to the match director immediately. The match director will notify Operations immediately and to the Security Committee within 24 hours of the match. This report would detail any safety concerns and any corrective actions taken

In the near future, with advice from the range committee, the BoD, and some independent contractors, we will begin to implement the following changes to our pits:
Raise berm height in NW corner of Bay 3.
Install some sort of bullet catcher/visor/fence at the tops of some bays.

While this is a great start to getting our facility fully functional, we still have a lot of work to do. Now, more than ever, we must be above reproach. We have to once again prove without doubt that we are as I stated last night, "the most controlled environment for shooting at BGSL". Not only do we want our pits open to practice for those with pit passes, but the BoD wants them open as well.

We must now focus on getting the Bullseye Range open for matches before the outdoor season begins. The Board is looking at improving this range along with the Rifle and General Purpose ranges. I highly recommend we get some dedicated bullseye shooters involved with the committee so that we have a working knowledge of the issues, solutions, and implementation schedule.

The USPSA match will take place Sunday, March 2, 2008 as originally planned. There will be a short meeting at 8am in the pits for division leadership, match directors, and other interested range officer staff. We will review the commitments made to the Board, safety concerns, and new procedures. It is vital that everyone involved with the direction of USPSA, IDPA, and SASS be there.

As for the IDPA match planned for March 15, 2008, I have appointed a committee to oversee IDPA in the interim. As it stands, Frank Cook and Micah Sierp have volunteered. We really need for experienced IDPA SOs and shooters to join this committee. If you are interested in IDPA at BGSL, contact me, or one of the Directors, Brandon Ironmonger and Tom Tryon.

The motion passed last night with all votes in the room except one. Greg Delabar, past-President of BGSL voted against the motion.

Last but not least, I want to give a heartfelt thank you to those who have worked diligently the past two weeks to get our matches up and running again. Specifically I would like to thank Brandon Ironmonger, Tom Tryon, Byron Daniel, BGSL President Dr. Bill Blackburn, and all of those who attended the meetings in support of our division whose names are too many to mention. I would also like to thank the Board of Directors for making a "good sense" decision, for their faith and goodwill toward us, and for being conservative stewards of our club.

Please keep safety first and foremost above all else as you have always done. The future of shooting at BGSL and your fellow club members are relying on you.

Happily and Sincerely,

Michael Foley, President
BGSL Pistol Division (open for business)

KYgundoc
02-27-2008, 14:00
That is good to hear.

hayley
02-29-2008, 01:02
Indeed, that is good to hear. My fear has been that unsupervised use of the pits is in jeopardy because the "remedies" proposed for the ranges are untenable--ironic 'cause my sense is that it's the least likely venue for the origin of stray rounds. I look forward to scheduled events, although I'm still a little piqued at the silly business with the email list. I'm gonna try to be supportive, however, and see how things go.

btw, I wish we could get something like this in Ky law:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/outdoor_activities/shooting_ranges/range_law_q&a.pdf

Bren
02-29-2008, 05:15
Indeed, that is good to hear. My fear has been that unsupervised use of the pits is in jeopardy because the "remedies" proposed for the ranges are untenable--ironic 'cause my sense is that it's the least likely venue for the origin of stray rounds. I look forward to scheduled events, although I'm still a little piqued at the silly business with the email list. I'm gonna try to be supportive, however, and see how things go.

btw, I wish we could get something like this in Ky law:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/outdoor_activities/shooting_ranges/range_law_q&a.pdf


We have KRS 237.200-.220 - the one you linked to seem to have more conditions, administrative rules, and loopholes for people to give the range a hard time. Our law says:
237.210 Effect of changed conditions on nuisance actions involving shooting ranges; standing to sue; limitation of liability; prohibition against retroactive application of laws




(1) No shooting range shall be or shall become a nuisance, either public or private, solely as a result of changed conditions in or around the locality of the range if the range has been in operation for one (1) year since the date on which it commenced operation as a shooting range. Subsequent physical expansion of the range or expansion of the types of firearms in use at the range shall not establish a new date of commencement of operations for purposes of this section unless the change triples the amount of the noise produced by the shooting range. The increase in the noise level at the shooting range shall be measured by an independent testing agency or a unit of government and shall compare the highest noise levels during any one (1) month during which the range is in full operation with a subsequent month in which the range is in full operation and conducting a comparable level of shooting activities. Only a person who lives adjacent to the shooting range shall have standing to bring an action under this section.



(2) No shooting range or unit of government or person owning, operating, or using a shooting range for the shooting of firearms shall be subject to any action for civil or criminal liability, damages, abatement, or injunctive relief resulting from or relating to noise generated by the operation of the range if the range remains in compliance with noise control or nuisance abatement administrative regulations, statutes, or ordinances applicable to the range on the date on which it commenced operation.



(3) No administrative regulations, statutes, or ordinances relating to noise control, noise pollution, or noise abatement adopted or enacted by a unit of government shall be applied retroactively to prohibit conduct at a shooting range, which conduct was lawful and being engaged in prior to the adoption or enactment of the administrative regulations, statutes, or ordinances.

It looks like the Minnesota one has a lot more conditions for the range to meet.

hayley
02-29-2008, 13:27
Doesn't 210 have to do with noise mainly? I would be interested in knowing the location of the properties whose owners have some grievance, as the 750' buffer restriction on new construction outside the property line in the MN law might apply. Also, adherence to an established SOP seems to give a range some legal protection in cases where rounds go off the property. In any event, I can't imagine better geographical placement in this state for a facility of this type; and given the responsible land use stewardship and responsible sporting advocacy the organization has practiced over the years, there ought to be some review process that provides some check on liability in an isolated case of stay fire. I don't know, however, whether it's one, two or dozens of rounds, but if the former, they should be able to analyze it without a cloud of doom hanging over the palisades. Anyhow, I just want it to work-out before the fish-fry!

Razoreye
03-04-2008, 14:36
I'm lost. I've been mulling over a membership but if you can't shoot, wtf is the purpose?

Why would they close down a bunch of the areas or restrict ammo??? Too much BS it sounds like.

Rhandhali
03-04-2008, 15:53
I'm getting ready to go to the meeting, anyone else going to be there?

Rhandhali
03-04-2008, 20:38
Well that was a waste of time. The tubes are temporary, maybe. The baffles and range officers are definitely not. The Board of Directors has no idea how much they'll cost the only figure they'd give was "extremely expensive".

Greg Delabar did everything he could to shoot down a motion that the board reopen the pistol pits to the general membership, unfortunately he succeeded. I'd also like to point out he's the only person who voted against reopening them for supervised matches, and promptly began verbally attacking the president of the pistol club at the first opportunity.

The upshot is that the ranges are going to stay closed until the board decides that the membership can be allowed back in. Apparently the only control we have over the club is to make recommendations to the board by a motion at meetings.

Razoreye
03-04-2008, 21:12
I'm lost. Y'all are paying to use a range but can't use it?? That sounds like a load of horse **** to me.

Rhandhali
03-04-2008, 21:17
That's pretty much the long and short of it.

crabpainter
03-08-2008, 09:33
Once again my friend gave me his account of the meeting. Greg Delabar's name was mentioned. A question came to mind. Did/does Greg Delabar own this property? I noticed his name attached to the lodge.

Rhandhali
03-08-2008, 10:06
He doesn't, he just for some reason either doesn't like the pistol club or the people that run it. Most of his efforts are directed at youth mentoring type stuff. He was president for a year but holds no other interest in the property.

domzilla9
03-08-2008, 11:34
BGSL owns its own property.

Bren
03-08-2008, 12:15
I'm lost. Y'all are paying to use a range but can't use it?? That sounds like a load of horse **** to me.

I guess it's pretty obvious but there is no reason to be a member of a club that only allows you to use the club during open events that don't require you to be a member.

My idea for BGSL is to give some incentive to club officers, like free membership while they serve and such, so that we could have some officers who actually want to help the club and keep their positions. Currently, we have a lot of guys who don't really want to be there and have no incentive to try to do a good job and keep their office. I'm thinking things would run a lot better if officers at BGSL had something to gain/lose by how they run the club.

Razoreye
03-10-2008, 00:36
Well, I have thought about getting a membership especially with gas going up since it is fairly close. This just sounds like a huge reason to stay away which is sad since I heard BGSL was pretty danged good at one time. :sad:

wizzardk
03-10-2008, 16:02
I guess it's pretty obvious but there is no reason to be a member of a club that only allows you to use the club during open events that don't require you to be a member.

My idea for BGSL is to give some incentive to club officers, like free membership while they serve and such, so that we could have some officers who actually want to help the club and keep their positions. Currently, we have a lot of guys who don't really want to be there and have no incentive to try to do a good job and keep their office. I'm thinking things would run a lot better if officers at BGSL had something to gain/lose by how they run the club.

I also wonder why you would join a club when there are so many open events. I know of two large divisions that would not have it any other way. Just look at what has happened with the closer of ranges that may offer a safety issue.
As far as Board members not wanting to be there, I think you may be wrong. You were once a Board member, and I think you did what you thought was best for the Main Club and your Division. That is all any of can do, because without the Main Club there are no Divisions.

I wish that there was some compensation for serving on the Board, It would be nice to be compensated for all the time I VOLUNTEER.

I am also a little disappointed with club members logged in with screen names posting peoples names and talking about those people on this site.

MK

Rhandhali
03-10-2008, 22:50
I also wonder why you would join a club when there are so many open events. I know of two large divisions that would not have it any other way. Just look at what has happened with the closer of ranges that may offer a safety issue.
As far as Board members not wanting to be there, I think you may be wrong. You were once a Board member, and I think you did what you thought was best for the Main Club and your Division. That is all any of can do, because without the Main Club there are no Divisions.

I wish that there was some compensation for serving on the Board, It would be nice to be compensated for all the time I VOLUNTEER.

I am also a little disappointed with club members logged in with screen names posting peoples names and talking about those people on this site.

MK

Why? It's a matter of record what happened there, anyone who was at the meeting can tell you that.

wizzardk
03-11-2008, 17:38
Why? It's a matter of record what happened there, anyone who was at the meeting can tell you that.

I understand that is a matter of record, and I also was at the meeting so I know what happened. I still think it is inappropriate to use members names on this board, especially when the posting is done under screen names.

One other thing I would like to say is that the motions that were presented were in contradiction of the clubs Constitution and Bylaws, which made the motions invalid. I am sorry if this does not seem right to you but that is the reason. Also you are a member not a customer of the club.

Finally if you bare with the Board they will solve the problem, and the solutions do come with some changes unfortunately,part of this is due to the society that we live in today.

Rhandhali
03-11-2008, 17:49
I understand that is a matter of record, and I also was at the meeting so I know what happened. I still think it is inappropriate to use members names on this board, especially when the posting is done under screen names.

One other thing I would like to say is that the motions that were presented were in contradiction of the clubs Constitution and Bylaws, which made the motions invalid. I am sorry if this does not seem right to you but that is the reason. Also you are a member not a customer of the club.

Finally if you bare with the Board they will solve the problem, and the solutions do come with some changes unfortunately,part of this is due to the society that we live in today.

I'm sorry you fail to see the problems with the club. I will maintain my membership long enough to vote against the current board of directors. You are correct, I am a member. I to be a member and right now I am not deriving any of the benefits of my membership. When you exchange money for goods and or services you are a customer, you just also happen to be a member

I do not thing that sitting around and "bearing" with the board is the solution, they have proven themselves to be barely competent at best. I am sorry, but when Bill Blackburn is answering "a lot" when questioned as to how much something is going to cost he is not providing a satisfactory answer, and Greg Delabar's behavior to the pistol club president was a flat out disgrace.

shadow_dog
03-11-2008, 18:24
Just a thought. Doesn't the club have Bylaws? If it does check them to see if the BoD can be ousted. This place sounds like it's ran by the antis BRADY BUNCH. D**n, I've only been there twice for GSSF, but I was impressed with the facilities. I will be POed if GSSF isn't there this year, it is my favorite GSSF outdoor match.

wizzardk
03-11-2008, 18:52
I'm sorry you fail to see the problems with the club. I will maintain my membership long enough to vote against the current board of directors. You are correct, I am a member. I to be a member and right now I am not deriving any of the benefits of my membership. When you exchange money for goods and or services you are a customer, you just also happen to be a member

I do not thing that sitting around and "bearing" with the board is the solution, they have proven themselves to be barely competent at best. I am sorry, but when Bill Blackburn is answering "a lot" when questioned as to how much something is going to cost he is not providing a satisfactory answer, and Greg Delabar's behavior to the pistol club president was a flat out disgrace.

Yes I am a member and have been for several years. while I don't shoot any of the rifle disciplines I do shoot some of the pistol matches, so my shooting is also effected.

I do take offense to being called "barely compentent". I guess the last 10 years I have been on the board was a waste of my time. I am glad that you are keeping your membership until the general elections. You will only have a say in 7 of the 30 board members . The other 22 are elected by the divisions and 1 is the past president. I encourage you to run for an office and serve on the board for a year, then maybe you won't be so fast to complain about those that do.

The reason there was no hard cost given for the repair is because it is not known yet. the design has to be done and then sent out for bids.

As for the incident with the pistol president, it should not have happened but both parties need to take part of the blame for it.

Rhandhali
03-11-2008, 19:00
Yes I am a member and have been for several years. while I don't shoot any of the rifle disciplines I do shoot some of the pistol matches, so my shooting is also effected.

The reason there was no hard cost given for the repair is because it is not known yet. the design has to be done and then sent out for bids.

As for the incident with the pistol president, it should not have happened but both parties need to take part of the blame for it.

It wasn't about the cost of the repair, it was about the cost of the range officers. Since you and your fellow board members aren't willing to give your estimates, assuming you've bothered to make any, let me do some quick math for everyone.

Let's assume we are going to want to have 3 range officers, one for the rifle, pistol and general purpose ranges. Let's also assume that we have high schoolers or somesuch and that we'll be paying them somewhere in the neighborhood of $6.66 an hour, or thereabouts. That means it costs us about $20.00 an hour to keep all three ranges open. That's just in raw wages, that's not assuming any sort of benefits or anything like that.

Next, let's assume that there are on average 10 hours of daylight over every single day of the year. That means to keep all three ranges running it costs about 200 dollars a day, 1400 dollars a week or for 360 days a year (We'll be nice and not make them work some of the holidays) $72,000 to keep those three ranges open and accessible to the members. I'm sure there might be some volunteer range officers that could offset the cost, but this is the worst case scenario of the sort that everyone seems so fond of.

I saw the budget sheets as well as you did. The club cannot afford that, nor is it willing to raise dues to cover the costs. Range availability is going to have to be drastically cut back without a compensating decrease in membership fees.

As far as range repair costs go I'd be very interested to see who gets that contract. I can only assume that the bidding process is totally transparent and that all the bids will be accessible to the club in general.

domzilla9
03-11-2008, 19:35
As of this writing, this post has topped 1,276 views, making it the second "most viewed" post in the recorded history of GT's Bluegrass Glockers forum, surpassed only by the infamous Antique & Modern Firearms SUCKS! (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=505982) thread.

"...you are a member not a customer of the club."

I wish that more members of my own club could embrace that idea. I am certainly frustrated with members who believe that their annual membership fee gives them all the rights and none of the responsibility.

I am not a member of BGSL but I sincerely hope that BGSL can get these differences worked out. I hate to see all of the infighting between groups of people who should be united by their common interests.

Rhandhali, if paying a membership fee makes you a customer then you are certainly getting the better end of that deal. Any warm body with a checking account can pay a membership fee. It takes a lot of character to serve on a board or act like a real member of an organization.

wizzardk
03-11-2008, 19:51
It wasn't about the cost of the repair, it was about the cost of the range officers. Since you and your fellow board members aren't willing to give your estimates, assuming you've bothered to make any, let me do some quick math for everyone.

Let's assume we are going to want to have 3 range officers, one for the rifle, pistol and general purpose ranges. Let's also assume that we have high schoolers or somesuch and that we'll be paying them somewhere in the neighborhood of $6.66 an hour, or thereabouts. That means it costs us about $20.00 an hour to keep all three ranges open. That's just in raw wages, that's not assuming any sort of benefits or anything like that.

Next, let's assume that there are on average 10 hours of daylight over every single day of the year. That means to keep all three ranges running it costs about 200 dollars a day, 1400 dollars a week or for 360 days a year (We'll be nice and not make them work some of the holidays) $72,000 to keep those three ranges open and accessible to the members. I'm sure there might be some volunteer range officers that could offset the cost, but this is the worst case scenario of the sort that everyone seems so fond of.

I saw the budget sheets as well as you did. The club cannot afford that, nor is it willing to raise dues to cover the costs. Range availability is going to have to be drastically cut back without a compensating decrease in membership fees.

As far as range repair costs go I'd be very interested to see who gets that contract. I can only assume that the bidding process is totally transparent and that all the bids will be accessible to the club in general.

To answer your question we have looked at the numbers. There are several factors to consider, amount of volunteer help, number of days, and number of hours. None of these has been set in stone but have been discussed. I have a quick question for you, how much more dues would you payto have the ranges open 8am to dark 365 days a year? The membership not the board has control of that.

Rhandhali
03-11-2008, 19:52
Me? I'd happily pay 300 dollars a year to have full access to the ranges. I was quite upset when there was all the bickering surrounding the $25.00 dues increase. When the facilities are accessible the price is a bargain.

wizzardk
03-11-2008, 20:06
I was just wondering.

Clyde
03-11-2008, 21:17
I was quite upset when there was all the bickering surrounding the $25.00 dues increase.

I hope it does not boil down to $25. I'm still unclear how a rifle round leaving the range caused all pistol ranges to be closed. If Rifles are the issue - than no Rifle until it's resolved.

I agree with domzilla9 and thanx to wizzardk for being on the board

wizzardk - How would you feel about having your home addess on the BGSL web Site. I don't like having mine listed. I assume your phone number is listed along - Not much different than having your name listed here.


Hoping for a Peaceful Resolution to include an Active Pistol Division

Razoreye
03-11-2008, 23:20
This all started because of one stray bullet? Is the city/county coming down on y'all hard? Seems kind of lame to me, anyone can shoot over a berm.

Rhandhali
03-12-2008, 12:19
This all started because of one stray bullet? Is the city/county coming down on y'all hard? Seems kind of lame to me, anyone can shoot over a berm.

Three stray bullets. One allegedly flew overhead and two were recovered after the fact. How long they'd been there nobody knows, where they came from, probably the GP range, maybe the rifle range, so of course the response is to shut down the pistol pits and the pistol range.

Just a thought. Doesn't the club have Bylaws? If it does check them to see if the BoD can be ousted. This place sounds like it's ran by the antis BRADY BUNCH. D**n, I've only been there twice for GSSF, but I was impressed with the facilities. I will be POed if GSSF isn't there this year, it is my favorite GSSF outdoor match.

I missed that. I'd think something along the "Sportsmen for Kerry" crowd, the guys in don't-shoot orange and camo that get trotted out with their bolt actions and over-unders to show how friendly the candidate is to gunowners.

domzilla9
03-12-2008, 13:44
Referring to your fellow club members as "the Brady Bunch" and "Sportsmen for Kerry" in a public internet forum ain't help your cause any.

Rhandhali
03-12-2008, 14:23
Referring to your fellow club members as "the Brady Bunch" and "Sportsmen for Kerry" in a public internet forum ain't help your cause any.

If you had bothered to have read the post that you quoted you'd see that I didn't call them "The Brady Bunch", I said they're "Sportsmen for Kerry" which implies something worse, Quisling, if you will.

At the last meeting there was a vote as to whether or not to recommend to the board that the pistol pits be opened for use by the club as they were before. They asked that we divide into two sides of the room and I can tell you right now that the people on the "Nay" side of the room were an almost perfect publicity still of an anti-gun front group, all they needed was some by sides and a dog or two with a nice sunset background.

I don't understand why the board of directors is so hell bent on destroying in six weeks a facility that has been built up for decades. Mark my words, if this keeps up it'll be down to a rifle range, tubes and a one shot per minute rule.

wizzardk
03-12-2008, 15:45
I hope it does not boil down to $25. I'm still unclear how a rifle round leaving the range caused all pistol ranges to be closed. If Rifles are the issue - than no Rifle until it's resolved.

I agree with domzilla9 and thanx to wizzardk for being on the board

wizzardk - How would you feel about having your home addess on the BGSL web Site. I don't like having mine listed. I assume your phone number is listed along - Not much different than having your name listed here.


Hoping for a Peaceful Resolution to include an Active Pistol Division

I would not like my address on the club website, and I don't know why yours would be and why it could not be removed. Yes my number is on the website, as a service to the members of the club. Some of the discussion here was done in a unsportsman like manner by club members.

wizzardk
03-12-2008, 16:00
If you had bothered to have read the post that you quoted you'd see that I didn't call them "The Brady Bunch", I said they're "Sportsmen for Kerry" which implies something worse, Quisling, if you will.

At the last meeting there was a vote as to whether or not to recommend to the board that the pistol pits be opened for use by the club as they were before. They asked that we divide into two sides of the room and I can tell you right now that the people on the "Nay" side of the room were an almost perfect publicity still of an anti-gun front group, all they needed was some by sides and a dog or two with a nice sunset background.

I don't understand why the board of directors is so hell bent on destroying in six weeks a facility that has been built up for decades. Mark my words, if this keeps up it'll be down to a rifle range, tubes and a one shot per minute rule.


How long have you been a member? Just wondering how long you have been part of these decades of building. I can't believe you think there will only be a rifle tube range and nothing else. If you remember right one of the motions passed the only the second one failed. I am sorry you can't have your own way. The board did open the pits for matches with restrictions that the pistol division put on itself.

Berretta9
03-12-2008, 18:45
Member, customer, whatever you want to call them, don't you think they hace a right to be upset ??? They paid for something they are now not being allowed to do. Kind of like paying for a gym membership and then being told you can't use the equipment. Hope it works out.
I'm sure that the members would be a little less upset if the board actually listened to them.

Rhandhali
03-12-2008, 21:28
How long have you been a member? Just wondering how long you have been part of these decades of building. I can't believe you think there will only be a rifle tube range and nothing else. If you remember right one of the motions passed the only the second one failed. I am sorry you can't have your own way. The board did open the pits for matches with restrictions that the pistol division put on itself.

I know which motions passed and which ones failed, and I know which people I'm ashamed to say belong to the same organization that I do.

Rhandhali
03-13-2008, 09:00
How long have you been a member? Just wondering how long you have been part of these decades of building. I can't believe you think there will only be a rifle tube range and nothing else. If you remember right one of the motions passed the only the second one failed. I am sorry you can't have your own way. The board did open the pits for matches with restrictions that the pistol division put on itself.

It doesn't matter if I've been a member for five days or five decades, I can see exactly what it is going on. I was perfectly happy to take no role in club politics and use the ranges, maybe partake in a couple of division shoots when I could and leave it at that. Things were running well. They're not anymore and the rot on the inside is showing.

Now that the ranges are shut down, I'm left with the option of paying for a canned hunt or paying to shoot at some clay targets a couple of nights a week. Granted after a contentious vote the board of directors in their infinite wisdom has decided to allow the option of a couple of matches a month in the pistol pits.

However because of the reactionary and expensive changes proposed by the board that's all that the membership, you know those people like me who pay to use those ranges, is likely to be left with. I've said it before and I'll say it again that you cannot afford to staff the ranges with range officers to keep them running at a functional level.

What does that leave the BGSL? Canned hunts, some shotgunning, Daniel Boone LARPing and supervised shooting on weekends. Hooray!

The board cannot or will not provide an answer as to when the ranges will be open. They cannot or will not provide even the barest estimates of cost and answered only with useless, evasive answers like "a lot". They refused to even speculate on how these changes will affect the functionality of the ranges even though the answer is obvious. You have not answered my question about how bids for the extensive construction projects that will be undertaken are to be handled.

We were told that tubes are "maybe" a temporary option, another evasive answer. No dates have been given not even provisional ones. It's been claimed that outside organizations are coming to provide advice on range "improvements", and to no doubt sell them. I'll wager they haven't been anywhere near as slippery and evasive as to how much they're charging or when they're going to show up.

I can certainly believe that the club would resort to a tubes only rifle range. It wouldn't take that much, the whole world has free reign of a ~1300 acre property, you don't think that people haven't discharged their weapons outside of the approved ranges? Or that the board's precious range officers will keep someone from finding that sliver of blue sky and sending a bullet towards it?

The point is that something like this will happen again and, based on the response of the current board of directors I can only imagine things becoming much worse than you've already made them. It's hard to imagine I know, but you don't need pistol pits for "huntin' rifles" and shotguns.

Some of the discussion here was done in a unsportsman like manner by club members.

What does that even mean? All of a sudden when someone decides to call you and the rest of the board your bull****, the fact that you're driving the ranges into the ground with favoritism and harmful, short-sighted handling of the problems and it's unsportsmanlike?

Razoreye
03-13-2008, 20:34
Like pistol ammo would go very far to require shutting them down...

B+Shooter
03-15-2008, 05:36
Remind me to never be picky about anything down at the 'creek! I'll take a little flooding over these issues any day.

A round hit Kenny's house one day during a KPDL shoot, which we're 99% sure came from the main line- typical Saturday knuckleheads. Things were made right and KPDL never missed a beat. I'm sorry to hear that BGSL is having problems. It's hard enough to promote shooting sports in the current media climate without having internal conflicts.

hayley
03-15-2008, 16:13
"Remind me to never be picky about anything down at the 'creek!"

Not much fun is it?

B+Shooter
03-15-2008, 17:41
Not much fun is it?

In regards to what?

KYMike
03-15-2008, 21:42
Some of the discussion here was done in a unsportsman like manner by club members.

Three quick points, if I may...
1) Your treatment of club members and others on this thread has been far from commendable. You seem to call yourself a martyr for all your sacrifices, but if you want to be on a pedestal, some responsibility comes along with the rewards. Jumping in attacking members in response to their attacks is a poor showing of leading by example.

2) Anyone who names a board member they disagree with seems to be not playing fair in your eyes, is that it? To claim responsibility for the good things, you also have to answer for unpopular decisions. That's an inenvitable part of club politics.

3) The comments posted here about this whole fiacso have been downright complimentary compared to what members have been saying about the club in and around local gunshops and sporting goods stores for weeks. Trust me, full names were given there, too...with plenty of "colorful" modifiers thrown in for good measure.

I have considered several times joining BGSL for the friendship and beautiful facilities, and each time was talked out of it by active members who saw problems coming. Now, I'm thankful to those members for speaking up. Whatever y'all decide to do, I truly hope you find some resolution quickly. As an outside observer, I can tell you the childish bickering on both sides flatters neither side, and it doesn't appear to be getting the club anywhere, either. Good luck, friends!

hayley
03-16-2008, 01:20
"In regards to what?"

--bickering

B+Shooter
03-16-2008, 07:48
"In regards to what?"

--bickering
Thanks, that makes sense. Yes, sometimes the facilities aren't weather-strong, but I like the freedoms at Knob Creek, and I couldn't imagine them imposing a lot of restrictions on shooters there.

Rhandhali
03-21-2008, 17:20
Let us bow down in gratitude before the infinite wisdom of the board of directors for allowing some of us access to our crippled ranges.

The tube range at GP will be open on 22-23 March, 2008 from 9:00am to7:00pm. It will be staffed by volunteer range persons. Since there will be ongoing work at the GP range, it will only be open on week-ends to start.

The design for the West end [short berm] has been completed and materials ordered. We expect to begin construction next week weather permitting. Plans are for a covered range with the North slope of the roof containing baffle material and extending out to a height of 6 feet. Until this work is complete, only rifles will be allowed on the GP range.

Berretta9
03-21-2008, 18:30
Have you guys thought about just tar and feathering the clown screwing the place up ? Perhaps a good old fashioned mob beating ?? Sounds like the pres. there deserves it.

revolver jack
03-21-2008, 19:13
The Pits Rule.... Can't wait to get back down there with my son. Luv shoot'n those pie plates....

domzilla9
03-21-2008, 19:18
The Pits Rule.... Can't wait to get back down there with my son. Luv shoot'n those pie plates....

If you like shooting pie plates, check out Silver Creek's Steel Match tomorrow, just 14 miles north of Louisville. Registration opens 9:30am. Revolvers, both center fire and rim fire, are welcome.

crabpainter
03-21-2008, 20:13
Is there any way to get a refund of membership fees? The reason I ask is because the friend I mentioned just joined this last December and did so for the convenience it's location offered but he's 90% pistol and shoots when he can. This club no longer meets his needs.

He tried speaking to a Doctor Blackwell or Blackburn?? about a refund who told him initially "no" but then offered that a formal letter must be submitted and the board must vote to allow it?
Has anyone ever been able to get a refund?
If so, how'd you do it?
Thanks.

45gunner
03-21-2008, 21:04
Is there any way to get a refund of membership fees? The reason I ask is because the friend I mentioned just joined this last December and did so for the convenience it's location offered but he's 90% pistol and shoots when he can. This club no longer meets his needs.

He tried speaking to a Doctor Blackwell or Blackburn?? about a refund who told him initially "no" but then offered that a formal letter must be submitted and the board must vote to allow it?
Has anyone ever been able to get a refund?
If so, how'd you do it?
Thanks.

Boo hoo.

Good shooting range sorry it's closed. Best way to get over it it to shoot at the Silver Creek steel match tommorrow.:whistling:

revolver jack
03-21-2008, 22:14
I joined BGSL last summer after going to the club with a friend for about 2 years prior. I was "hooked" on the club so much that I paid for my son's membership this January. Then shortly the closure. I am pretty "bummed" about it because I really enjoyed quality time with my son in the pits. But during my time at BGSL I have met a lot of nice people. So I have decided to wait to see the outcome. If the "new" rules are too restrictive on my busy schedule, then I will re-evaluate my current membership. But I want to give the club a chance first. Correct me if I am wrong here, but aren't most Board members volunteers? They have real "paying" other jobs? And they do this Board job out of love for the sport. If this is so, then aren't they doing the best they can with this secondary job? I expect it is hard to concentrate on multiple jobs. Just my 2 cents. And yes, I want to get to the pits again too. Wow, just love the pits.

45gunner
03-21-2008, 22:35
I joined BGSL last summer after going to the club with a friend for about 2 years prior. I was "hooked" on the club so much that I paid for my son's membership this January. Then shortly the closure. I am pretty "bummed" about it because I really enjoyed quality time with my son in the pits. But during my time at BGSL I have met a lot of nice people. So I have decided to wait to see the outcome. If the "new" rules are too restrictive on my busy schedule, then I will re-evaluate my current membership. But I want to give the club a chance first. Correct me if I am wrong here, but aren't most Board members volunteers? They have real "paying" other jobs? And they do this Board job out of love for the sport. If this is so, then are't they doing the best they can with this secondary job? I expect it is hard to concentrate on multiple jobs. Just my 2 cents. And yes, I want to get to the pits again too. Wow, just love the pits.

I had the same problem with a range in the Louisville area that is now out of business. I know it makes you mad.:steamed:

crabpainter
03-22-2008, 08:52
Thanks for the sympathy & suggestion 45gunner but we're headed to Ft. Knox today.

Has anybody ever received a refund of membership?

revolver jack
03-26-2008, 20:44
My work schedule during the year prevents me from "droping-in" to the regularly scheduled Board Meetings. If anyone attended, was there any good news about opening the Pits any time soon? Just trying to keep myself posted. Thanks in advance.....

Rhandhali
03-26-2008, 20:52
My work schedule during the year prevents me from "droping-in" to the regularly scheduled Board Meetings. If anyone attended, was there any good news about opening the Pits any time soon? Just trying to keep myself posted. Thanks in advance.....

Doubtful. The only news we have is the stuff I posted above. Two rifle tubes. Hooray! I'll definitely be at the membership meeting next week though.

spork
03-27-2008, 03:00
Good luck to you guys. I am not a member there, but I do attend some annual training there in the summer. Its a beautiful place, and I hope you guys can preserve what is best about the pits and ranges.

revolver jack
03-27-2008, 20:20
Got it from the web site - Great News for me and my son

Pit Practice allowed at BGSL -


Description: Practice is allowed in the practical shooting pits every Wednesday and Saturday from 9am-7pm for BGSL members with valid pit passes. No guests are allowed at this time. Shooters are required to have a Safety Officer with in arms reach at all times. Please have proof of SO certification. Accepted SO certifications are IDPA, USPSA, SASS, or NRA. Safety Officers are required to have an additional SO when shooting. Please observe the following restrictions when shooting in the pits.
1. Target height must be no higher than 5 ft at the shoulder
2. Shots must be 12 yards or less
3. No shooting in Bay 3 of pit 1
4. Rifles in Bay 5 of pit 1 only
Please see division director with questions
Date: Saturday, March 29, 2008
Repeat Type: Saturday, March 29, 2008 - Wednesday, April 30, 2008 (every Week, Wed, Sat)
Priority: Medium
Access: Public
Created by: Training Events
Updated: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:25am

Printer Friendly

revolver jack
03-28-2008, 20:40
There is an informative letter about the updates to the BGSL issues in the member's section (have to log in)... then go to newsletters... get the April 1, 2008 info.... things are happening.... great....

Rhandhali
03-28-2008, 23:04
Got it from the web site - Great News for me and my son

Pit Practice allowed at BGSL -


Description: Practice is allowed in the practical shooting pits every Wednesday and Saturday from 9am-7pm for BGSL members with valid pit passes. No guests are allowed at this time. Shooters are required to have a Safety Officer with in arms reach at all times. Please have proof of SO certification. Accepted SO certifications are IDPA, USPSA, SASS, or NRA. Safety Officers are required to have an additional SO when shooting. Please observe the following restrictions when shooting in the pits.
1. Target height must be no higher than 5 ft at the shoulder
2. Shots must be 12 yards or less
3. No shooting in Bay 3 of pit 1
4. Rifles in Bay 5 of pit 1 only
Please see division director with questions
Date: Saturday, March 29, 2008
Repeat Type: Saturday, March 29, 2008 - Wednesday, April 30, 2008 (every Week, Wed, Sat)
Priority: Medium
Access: Public
Created by: Training Events
Updated: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:25am

Printer Friendly

That's nothing positive nor is it something to be grateful for. That's the board yet again spitting in our collective faces. The latest newsletter isn't much better.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SYTBD5U2

I haven't wasted my time at the ranges lately, jesus christ those tubes are hideous.

hayley
03-29-2008, 21:09
I saw them today. They offer a really odd shooting experience, but I understand they're temporary. I'm interested (somewhat) to see what the baffling looks like.

45gunner
03-29-2008, 21:13
That's nothing positive nor is it something to be grateful for. That's the board yet again spitting in our collective faces. The latest newsletter isn't much better.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SYTBD5U2

I haven't wasted my time at the ranges lately, jesus christ those tubes are hideous.

Whats with the dating link on GT?

B+Shooter
03-29-2008, 21:34
I noticed that!
I did meet a nice 43 yr old guy posing as a swedish blonde, though...
:shocked:

revolver jack
03-30-2008, 08:28
youssssss guys are too funny !!!!!!

Razoreye
03-30-2008, 13:43
Whats with the dating link on GT?
Those are called advertisements. Sites post them to raise revenue to run the sites.

In this case, type in the anti-spoof code displayed and click "download." Wait 60 seconds and download the newsletter in .pdf form. The site is to upload files for free to share with others.

I rehosted it here. (.pdf 304 KB) (http://razoreye.net/downloads/bgsl2008-04.pdf)

Razoreye
03-30-2008, 22:42
Those rifle tubes are the ugliest things ever. I'll gladly drive out of my way to use a better, un-RO'd range. :)

Rhandhali
04-01-2008, 19:27
Those rifle tubes are the ugliest things ever. I'll gladly drive out of my way to use a better, un-RO'd range. :)

Or, you can use a non-ROed tube range for free! God forbid someone be allowed to shoot something outside of a tube with another man holding on to his belt like he's a two year old!

I'm in the middle of quals and exam hell right now so I wasn't able to make the meeting tonight, no doubt more insults and bad news.

Nodnarb
04-03-2008, 06:45
Rhandhali,
I will personally, gladly give you your money back for your membership if you will quit your childish whining and complaining. You act like a two year old that your firetruck taken away. Things are moving in the right direction at BGSL, show some maturity and spend your energy being positive.

Rhandhali
04-03-2008, 08:08
Rhandhali,
I will personally, gladly give you your money back for your membership if you will quit your childish whining and complaining. You act like a two year old that your firetruck taken away. Things are moving in the right direction at BGSL, show some maturity and spend your energy being positive.

I don't know about you but glory holes are never a sign of a quality establishment. It says a lot about you if you think that though.

B+Shooter
04-03-2008, 17:21
I don't know about you but glory holes are never a sign of a quality establishment. It says a lot about you if you think that though.

Timeout!
I think that was below the belt.

I am not involved with BGSL but I tend to agree that if you aren't contributing in the meetings, I wouldn't be so critical. It's the same as people that don't vote who badmouth the government. If you help, then that's great, but comments like this will lose you respect for anything else you say from here out.

Rhandhali
04-07-2008, 23:41
Timeout!
I think that was below the belt.

I am not involved with BGSL but I tend to agree that if you aren't contributing in the meetings, I wouldn't be so critical. It's the same as people that don't vote who badmouth the government. If you help, then that's great, but comments like this will lose you respect for anything else you say from here out.

Civility isn't the first thing that comes to mind when Brandon there decides he wants to offer a bribe and a very pathetic bribe at that.

Let's try this again.

Rhandhali,
I will personally, gladly give you your money back for your membership if you will quit your childish whining and complaining. You act like a two year old that your firetruck taken away. Things are moving in the right direction at BGSL, show some maturity and spend your energy being positive.

I've traveled a lot. I've shot in a lot of different places in the United States and abroad. I've seen how a lot of different ranges are run. The BGSL was one of the nicer I have shot at; it's not anymore. It reminds me of ranges I have used in places like Ohio, Massachusetts and California places where gun owners can barely operate due to restrictions of the sort that are being placed on the membership.

The BGSL is now in its current state an embarrassment to an ostensibly free state like Kentucky. If things continue the way they are going it's only going to be worse. If you are a gun owner and think otherwise you're a hypocrite and a liar - I cannot comprehend the level of self deception or cognitive dissonance that would allow someone to take this position unless their last name was Kennedy or Brady.

If the state or local legislature was mandating changes one one thousandth as severe as the board of directors has forced on the organization the hue and cry would be deafening. Nobody would be saying we should hold our tongues and "not be so critical" because we don't go to the town council or state legislature meetings. Nobody would be talking about how reasonable these changes are, or how "positive" they are, or how we should be giving our wise and thoughtful legislators the benefit of the doubt.

People like Brandon wouldn't be to buy people's silence or accuse them of acting like children for complaining about it and directing them to "spend their energy on something positive".

Nodnarb
04-13-2008, 17:01
Civility isn't the first thing that comes to mind when Brandon there decides he wants to offer a bribe and a very pathetic bribe at that.

Let's try this again.



I've traveled a lot. I've shot in a lot of different places in the United States and abroad. I've seen how a lot of different ranges are run. The BGSL was one of the nicer I have shot at; it's not anymore. It reminds me of ranges I have used in places like Ohio, Massachusetts and California places where gun owners can barely operate due to restrictions of the sort that are being placed on the membership.

The BGSL is now in its current state an embarrassment to an ostensibly free state like Kentucky. If things continue the way they are going it's only going to be worse. If you are a gun owner and think otherwise you're a hypocrite and a liar - I cannot comprehend the level of self deception or cognitive dissonance that would allow someone to take this position unless their last name was Kennedy or Brady.

If the state or local legislature was mandating changes one one thousandth as severe as the board of directors has forced on the organization the hue and cry would be deafening. Nobody would be saying we should hold our tongues and "not be so critical" because we don't go to the town council or state legislature meetings. Nobody would be talking about how reasonable these changes are, or how "positive" they are, or how we should be giving our wise and thoughtful legislators the benefit of the doubt.

People like Brandon wouldn't be to buy people's silence or accuse them of acting like children for complaining about it and directing them to "spend their energy on something positive".
Offer still stands. If you feel that you have been so wronged by the club, and that we are all trying to get the range closed forever, then I will refund your dues in exchange for your membership card. Not a bribe, just trying to please the customer. I am not opposed to anyone having a different opinion, just running down an organization that they belong to in a pubic forum. In spite of what you think, I know that there are a lot of people doing the best they can to preserve BGSL for future generations. The right choice is not always the most popular choice. I hope that we can work through this and maybe one day we can shoot together at BGSL and shake hands. Come introduce your self at the next meeting. Maybe we can chat.

crabpainter
04-13-2008, 18:25
For clarification... does this offer apply to any member and are you authorized to make such an offer? :whistling:

Bren
04-14-2008, 04:16
I guess my input is that BGSL has experienced a problem and the present leadership completely overreacted to it by shutting down the pistol division for something that had nothing to do with pistol. The answer is to replace them at the next election, if the club survives until then.

Rhandhali
05-25-2008, 00:31
For clarification... does this offer apply to any member and are you authorized to make such an offer? :whistling:

Based on the lack of response probably not. I just realized the year is half over and I haven't been able to go shooting once because the idiots that got voted in last year have decided to run the whole operation into the ground and break it off. The next round of elections can't come soon enough.

maxsnafu
05-25-2008, 06:27
Based on the lack of response probably not. I just realized the year is half over and I haven't been able to go shooting once because the idiots that got voted in last year have decided to run the whole operation into the ground and break it off. The next round of elections can't come soon enough.

When is the next election and are any people on our side going to run?

crabpainter
05-25-2008, 07:54
Since my question about refunding membership was ignored... it wouldn't hurt to ask another.
Same friend who wants his membership fees back was to try and qualify at the range yesterday. I asked him if he was unable to qualify would he get his fees returned because the range would be off limits to him? He didn't know.

So I ask Brandon, if I can't qualify (for what ever reason) would I be refunded my membership fee?

The ranges are the only facilities I would use.

Bren
05-25-2008, 08:55
I am thinking that, since the club seems to have nose-dived just within the space of a year under its current leadership, I may renew for one more year and see if it improves after an election.

Without the ability to draw in new members, who are virtually 100% there for shooting, the club won't be around for me to renew another time anyhow.

The problem with hoping for change is that a lot of the voters, like the board members, don't really use the club much at all or know much about shooting/modern shooting, which is what the active members use the facility for.

Nodnarb
05-25-2008, 09:25
There is Board Meeting Tuesday night and all BGSL members are welcome to attend and voice their concerns and offer constructive criticism. A plan will be presented to get the pits open for qualified shooters and there will be a baffled range in Pit 2 complete in about two weeks where newer shooters can practice and develop the skills to shoot in the open. Bren is right that a lot of the voters are not familiar with shooting as it stands today. I assure you that the 10-12 people that are working their tails off to get the ranges open, are familiar. I personally have spent many, many hours away from my family working to get as many people safely shooting as possible. I am ticked that I cant shoot too. I am ticked that a couple of careless people ruined all of my fun too. I am ticked that 2000+ people are suffering because of this. That is why I chose to be part of the solution. I did not have the time to give either, but I made the time because the club and all of its members are important to me. I realize the progress is slow, that is the problem with volunteers. We are on the verge of getting things open a lot more than they have been. We need people like you all on this forum, people that are passionate about your sport, to help. We don't have all of the answers, but we are trying.

As to the question about if you can't qualify will you be refunded, that request would have to be made before the board. I am not authorized to approve or deny this request. My offer to Rhandali was I would personally, not BGSL, refund his dues. My personal thoughts are that if you can't qualify, then practice until you can. Show some dedication to your sport. It is not that hard. I am not a good shooter, Bren can attest to that as he has shot with me. I have shot less than 100 rounds in a rifle in my life. I qualified the first time I tried with someone else's gun as I do not even own a rifle.

Again, we are working to get you shooting again as soon as possible. Come to the meetings and offer suggestions if you think you may have a better plan. Come talk to me individually and offer alternatives. In spite of the nasty tone set here in previous post, we should be able to talk in a civil manner and work together for a solution. (And no Crabpainter, the offer does not extend to you. My checkbook will only allow for one refund. Sorry.)

Rhandhali
05-25-2008, 14:21
There is Board Meeting Tuesday night and all BGSL members are welcome to attend and voice their concerns and offer constructive criticism. A plan will be presented to get the pits open for qualified shooters and there will be a baffled range in Pit 2 complete in about two weeks where newer shooters can practice and develop the skills to shoot in the open. Bren is right that a lot of the voters are not familiar with shooting as it stands today. I assure you that the 10-12 people that are working their tails off to get the ranges open, are familiar. I personally have spent many, many hours away from my family working to get as many people safely shooting as possible. I am ticked that I cant shoot too. I am ticked that a couple of careless people ruined all of my fun too. I am ticked that 2000+ people are suffering because of this. That is why I chose to be part of the solution. I did not have the time to give either, but I made the time because the club and all of its members are important to me. I realize the progress is slow, that is the problem with volunteers. We are on the verge of getting things open a lot more than they have been. We need people like you all on this forum, people that are passionate about your sport, to help. We don't have all of the answers, but we are trying.

As to the question about if you can't qualify will you be refunded, that request would have to be made before the board. I am not authorized to approve or deny this request. My offer to Rhandali was I would personally, not BGSL, refund his dues. My personal thoughts are that if you can't qualify, then practice until you can. Show some dedication to your sport. It is not that hard. I am not a good shooter, Bren can attest to that as he has shot with me. I have shot less than 100 rounds in a rifle in my life. I qualified the first time I tried with someone else's gun as I do not even own a rifle.

Again, we are working to get you shooting again as soon as possible. Come to the meetings and offer suggestions if you think you may have a better plan. Come talk to me individually and offer alternatives. In spite of the nasty tone set here in previous post, we should be able to talk in a civil manner and work together for a solution. (And no Crabpainter, the offer does not extend to you. My checkbook will only allow for one refund. Sorry.)

You've had the "better plan" available to you since day 1 - put up the baffles at the GP range, and leave it at that. You had 2000 people safely shooting before you decided to s*** all over the operations of the club. What's the point of the pits if you're just going to turn them into a standard range? So far for all of your "hard work" we have a GP range that looks like the mens room wall at a San Francisco bus stop and a lot of very angry people.
You say the qualifications are easy, then what's the point? Smells like window dressing to me, more barriers to honest people being able to use the facilities that they paid for.

The BoD may not have any credibility but at least it's nice to know that they've yet to resort to buying people off, at least not officially. Sounds like you and the rest of your ilk need to go back to your families and leave things the hell alone before you make them worse.

Bren
05-26-2008, 06:10
I am ticked that I cant shoot too. I am ticked that a couple of careless people ruined all of my fun too. I am ticked that 2000+ people are suffering because of this.


I am mainly ticked that the board decided to close down ranges that had nothing to do with the incident (pistol range/pits and probably rifle) rather than just enforce the rules for the nonshooters on the GP range (or as I call it, "where the idiots shoot"). This club better start serving a purpose for its members - it can't afford for a lot of people to decide not to renew and I'm afraid it may be too late to fix that. Couple that will all the BS "safety" expenditures and this year will be the last time I have the option of renewing.

Nodnarb
05-26-2008, 06:44
That is your second reference to glory holes, must be real familiar with them. You say 2000 people safely shooting, you must be as blind as you are angry. The problem was not just on GP. I have never went into the pits that I did not see someone acting in an unsafe manner. While the alleged incident in question may not have been from the pits, there was the potential. Not every person with a pit pass is the expert marksman and worlds safest shooter, that is the reason for the two baffled lanes in the pits. The shooters that demonstrate the ability will be able to shoot like they used to in the uncovered portion. My goal was to get a place for every level of shooter to shoot and have a place for them to graduate to as skills and attitudes develop. Would you like to volunteer to be an Range Officer in the pits? Are you an RO? It is approved to shoot in the pits on Wednesdays and Saturdays with a RO. I would be happy to post it if you want to do something positive for your club. You should run for Director at Large next term and put all of your great ideas into play.

Rhandhali
05-26-2008, 08:36
That is your second reference to glory holes, must be real familiar with them. You say 2000 people safely shooting, you must be as blind as you are angry. The problem was not just on GP. I have never went into the pits that I did not see someone acting in an unsafe manner. While the alleged incident in question may not have been from the pits, there was the potential. Not every person with a pit pass is the expert marksman and worlds safest shooter, that is the reason for the two baffled lanes in the pits. The shooters that demonstrate the ability will be able to shoot like they used to in the uncovered portion. My goal was to get a place for every level of shooter to shoot and have a place for them to graduate to as skills and attitudes develop. Would you like to volunteer to be an Range Officer in the pits? Are you an RO? It is approved to shoot in the pits on Wednesdays and Saturdays with a RO. I would be happy to post it if you want to do something positive for your club. You should run for Director at Large next term and put all of your great ideas into play.

I can assure you my eyesight is quite intact, I'm not the one deluding myself and projecting my own failures and inadequacies onto 2000 people in the form of these phantom unsafe conditions. There might have been problems on the GP range, maybe. I actually appreciate the fact that they're putting baffles there because they're really just an expensive sunshade for people walking down to put their targets up. Honestly you might have been better off just building an indoor range but hey, it's not my money and it's not my construction bid to hand out to friends or relatives.

Why would I want to be an RO? Why should I be one more person to validate your system? I used to be able to shoot ANYTIME I WANTED TO. Shooting on Wednesdays or Saturdays, or whenever we're deemed worthy to be allowed in, with someone hanging off of my belt isn't an improvement. It's one thing to have someone shadowing you during a match but during practice is too much. People were vetted to shoot there, period. I refuse to participate in the RSO idiocy unless I can RO for myself, and that's already an idea that's been shot down. What's the point otherwise?. I guess if I if I warmed the magic chair that somehow makes things safer I could get some studying in while giving other people to use the ranges they paid for.

If you want to get people shooting, congratulations, you are failing miserably. The only thing positive anyone not in a position of power can do for the club is show up at the election and vote against every single one of these fascist thugs that the constitution allows to be removed.

maxsnafu
05-28-2008, 08:15
I am mainly ticked that the board decided to close down ranges that had nothing to do with the incident (pistol range/pits and probably rifle) rather than just enforce the rules for the nonshooters on the GP range (or as I call it, "where the idiots shoot"). This club better start serving a purpose for its members - it can't afford for a lot of people to decide not to renew and I'm afraid it may be too late to fix that. Couple that will all the BS "safety" expenditures and this year will be the last time I have the option of renewing.

Bren, I am one of the "idiots" who shoots at the general purpose range. It would seem that
in a situation such as ours an alliance would be beneficial to both the pistol guys
and the GP people. Hence your characterization of the GP people as "idiots" appears infantile
at best and the zenith of mongoloid reasoning at worst.

Very poorly done, fellah.

Bren
05-30-2008, 10:53
Bren, I am one of the "idiots" who shoots at the general purpose range.

Sorry to hear that, but hardly surprised. Everybody who shoots in GP may not be an idiot, but I'm pretty sure every idiot shoots on GP. Your post certainly doesn't change my opinion, but at least it shows you have an interest other than race and fringe politics...maybe if you had called me "dude" instead....

revolver jack
06-05-2008, 08:20
Hey People - I can't make it to the General Meetings cause of my job schedule. I have been so patient - but it has been at least 5 months since being able to shoot in the Pits (unwatched). Does anybody know of a time frame for getting us back into the Pits (unwatched)? I have gotten to where I don't want to shoot in the Pits without being able to do so with my son. He use to be able to go with me on my "orange" Pit pass - but no more. And when will he be able to get his Pit pass? I am just at my breaking point here. Sorry --- I am just so furious. I can't stand it anymore... I am loosing quality time with my son. I would like to think rant over but.......

bimmerboy
06-06-2008, 16:14
Offer still stands. If you feel that you have been so wronged by the club, and that we are all trying to get the range closed forever, then I will refund your dues in exchange for your membership card. Not a bribe, just trying to please the customer. I am not opposed to anyone having a different opinion, just running down an organization that they belong to in a pubic forum. In spite of what you think, I know that there are a lot of people doing the best they can to preserve BGSL for future generations. The right choice is not always the most popular choice. I hope that we can work through this and maybe one day we can shoot together at BGSL and shake hands. Come introduce your self at the next meeting. Maybe we can chat.

Well said, I think this post shows us who you are and how you run the range. I myself do hope to shoot at BGSL and shake your hand.

Rhandhali
06-07-2008, 11:51
Hey People - I can't make it to the General Meetings cause of my job schedule. I have been so patient - but it has been at least 5 months since being able to shoot in the Pits (unwatched). Does anybody know of a time frame for getting us back into the Pits (unwatched)? I have gotten to where I don't want to shoot in the Pits without being able to do so with my son. He use to be able to go with me on my "orange" Pit pass - but no more. And when will he be able to get his Pit pass? I am just at my breaking point here. Sorry --- I am just so furious. I can't stand it anymore... I am loosing quality time with my son. I would like to think rant over but.......

I think the response you're going to get is a polite ******* you. You're not responsible enough to be in the pits by yourself, none of us are.

amr40509
06-16-2008, 05:35
Can one of you guys who are 'in the know,' provide a bit of an update on where things are today?

What is open? What is planned to be opened?

Bren
06-16-2008, 05:37
Can one of you guys who are 'in the know,' provide a bit of an update on where things are today?



Where my things are is that I found out I can drive to Silver Creek as fast as BGSL and they don't have fishing/airgun/pointer-setter/kitchen divisions as far as I can tell, so I picked up an application yesterday.

Razoreye
06-23-2008, 22:43
Where my things are is that I found out I can drive to Silver Creek as fast as BGSL and they don't have fishing/airgun/pointer-setter/kitchen divisions as far as I can tell, so I picked up an application yesterday.
Isn't that in Indiana? There's no way that'd be quicker!

domzilla9
06-24-2008, 05:29
Isn't that in Indiana? There's no way that'd be quicker!

+1 . Duuuuuude.....Indiana is, like, a whole 'nother STATE! Can you even go there????

Berretta9
06-24-2008, 05:30
Depneds on where you are comming from. Silver Creek is 3 miles off of I 65. No back roads at all and way easier to get to. Probably is a little further from Frankfort but I would guess it is a little quicker.

Bren
06-24-2008, 05:50
Isn't that in Indiana? There's no way that'd be quicker!

I live in Frankfort. It takes me about an hour to drive to either club even without traffic problems and the drive to SCCC is on I 64 and I 65, while the drive to BGSL is on back roads (33) with farmers, deer, etc. Also, when I finish shooting at SCCC I'm coming back through Louisville and I can stop at Famous Dave's or Erika's or the Music-Go-Round, Borders, etc. - coming back through Versailles doesn't offer much entertainment.

domzilla9
06-24-2008, 06:07
I've heard through the grape vine that a certain BGSL directorship will change, returning the best man for the job. That's definitely a move in the right direction!

domzilla9
06-24-2008, 21:29
I've heard through the grape vine that a certain BGSL directorship will change, returning the best man for the job. That's definitely a move in the right direction!

Announcement: http://www.bgslinc.com/modules.php?name=BGSL_Sport_IDPA&file=page&load=Home.html

See contact info at bottom. :supergrin:

Razoreye
06-25-2008, 08:49
I live in Frankfort. It takes me about an hour to drive to either club even without traffic problems and the drive to SCCC is on I 64 and I 65, while the drive to BGSL is on back roads (33) with farmers, deer, etc. Also, when I finish shooting at SCCC I'm coming back through Louisville and I can stop at Famous Dave's or Erika's or the Music-Go-Round, Borders, etc. - coming back through Versailles doesn't offer much entertainment.
Ahhh, that makes sense. I didn't realize you're a "furter." :supergrin: Famous Daves is good ****... you eat at the Hurstbourne one or the one across the river?

Razoreye
06-25-2008, 08:51
I've heard through the grape vine that a certain BGSL directorship will change, returning the best man for the job. That's definitely a move in the right direction!
I'm not sure what that means, is this a good thing? I know they lost my potential money for the indefinite future...

Bren
06-25-2008, 12:47
Ahhh, that makes sense. I didn't realize you're a "furter." :supergrin: Famous Daves is good ****... you eat at the Hurstbourne one or the one across the river?

Hurstbourne.

As for the directorship thing, Lin is now the IDPA match director again, but much thanks to Micah for stepping in and keeping the matches running during the wacky BGSL nonsense.

I just heard from a guy today who is a member and shoots a little, but doesn't compete. he said he threw away his due renewal notice, but he's still thinking he might renew. I expect there is a lot of that around.

shadow_dog
06-30-2008, 20:14
I hope the GSSF match is still on and will be uneffected. I spoke with the Glock rep at the NRA convention in Louisville and he told me that Glock would have a match one way or another in the area. Darn shame IMO, the Blue Grass was the one range I really looked forward to. Great place IMO, but who knows with the current BS that is going on.

Rhandhali
07-01-2008, 10:01
I hope the GSSF match is still on and will be uneffected. I spoke with the Glock rep at the NRA convention in Louisville and he told me that Glock would have a match one way or another in the area. Darn shame IMO, the Blue Grass was the one range I really looked forward to. Great place IMO, but who knows with the current BS that is going on.

Why? Why should BGSL get the match, and the money it brings, when the "leadership" have done everything in their power to suppress the shooting sports for over half a year now? I hope GSSF goes somewhere else. Seeing opportunities like that lost just add to the list of reasons for getting rid of the fools that are running the club into the ground.

Rhandhali
07-01-2008, 10:13
For what it's worth I was a hundred percent correct about the dues increase, I just got a letter from Bill Blackburn begging for a $75.00 a year dues increase. The meeting is August 5th for anyone else who wants to vote against it.

steel007
07-01-2008, 17:30
Where my things are is that I found out I can drive to Silver Creek as fast as BGSL and they don't have fishing/airgun/pointer-setter/kitchen divisions as far as I can tell, so I picked up an application yesterday.

So this is where all you plastic guys come to talk lol. Bren is right its about the same time to SC from frankfort as it is to BGSL. I know Bren and Dom, do I know the anybody else? I'm Corey Estill.

domzilla9
07-01-2008, 23:11
Why? Why should BGSL get the match, and the money it brings, when the "leadership" have done everything in their power to suppress the shooting sports for over half a year now? I hope GSSF goes somewhere else. Seeing opportunities like that lost just add to the list of reasons for getting rid of the fools that are running the club into the ground.

So you want your club to lose a prestigious match and its revenue so that the club will improve?

I am not a member of BGSL. I've been a guest there and I have taken classes and shot matches there. However, as of late I've had more interaction with different Directors at BGSL. You're fortunate to have the folks that I've met as Directors at your club and it's truly regrettable that you don't appreciate what you have. A $75 increase in annual dues? If BGSL can get the anti-pistol/black gun crowd thrown out it will be a club that's a bargain at twice the price of it's current membership fee.

Since I'm not a member of BGSL can I take up a collection to buy out your membership and get you the hell out of there without being accused of conspiracy? Look, obviously the relationship is bad for you and from what we've seen so far in this thread, you ain't doing BGSL or its other members any favors. And I'd like to see BGSL weather through this difficult time. My guess is both you and BGSL would be better off if you moved to Knob Creek.

domzilla9
07-01-2008, 23:16
R, will you take GT Casino Cash?

domzilla9
07-01-2008, 23:18
but much thanks to Micah for stepping in and keeping the matches running during the wacky BGSL nonsense.

'natch. +++++++++1

KY Gun Geek
07-03-2008, 21:41
Gents -

Started a new thread re the reopening of the BGSL ranges. Check it out.

Rhandhali
07-06-2008, 09:51
So you want your club to lose a prestigious match and its revenue so that the club will improve?

I am not a member of BGSL. I've been a guest there and I have taken classes and shot matches there. However, as of late I've had more interaction with different Directors at BGSL. You're fortunate to have the folks that I've met as Directors at your club and it's truly regrettable that you don't appreciate what you have. A $75 increase in annual dues? If BGSL can get the anti-pistol/black gun crowd thrown out it will be a club that's a bargain at twice the price of it's current membership fee.

Since I'm not a member of BGSL can I take up a collection to buy out your membership and get you the hell out of there without being accused of conspiracy? Look, obviously the relationship is bad for you and from what we've seen so far in this thread, you ain't doing BGSL or its other members any favors. And I'd like to see BGSL weather through this difficult time. My guess is both you and BGSL would be better off if you moved to Knob Creek.

You're absolutely correct, BGSL would be a bargain at twice the price we're paying now if it was run like it was run what, seven months ago now? I've already said as much. However I can't support a dues increase when ranges have been closed for over half a year and when that money is only going to be pissed away on expensive projects while the club remains effectively closed.

The fact of the matter is that the organization at this time is run by the anti-pistol, anti-black rifle crowd and it's a *big* if as to whether or not they're going to be run out when the elections come around. I'm holding on to my membership until the elections determine what the makeup of the new board of directors is going to be like.

I'm a member of GSSF too and I don't think that a pistol sport shooting organization should provide the prestige and financial benefit that their match confers to a sportsman's club that is hostile to the idea of pistol shooting. Why should they associate their name with an anti-handgun group? Why should they support them financially? How does that make any sense?