Foreigners: How do your citizens view gun control?

[RMTactical]

Just curious.

Seems like most people in countries like Canada, England, and Austrailia, etc... are happy with gun control in general. It's pretty sad. Many of them not only accept it, but embrace it...

For you pro gun folks in some of these less than pro gun countries, how do you deal with it? Do you speak to others about the perils of gun control? How is it received?

I like to play COD4 and other games on XBOX Live with my brothers. The other day we were online and in one of the rooms waiting for a game to start.

There were two guys in the room with accents and I asked them where they were from. They were from Australia. I asked them what they thought of Americans. They said that they liked Americans but they hate GWB and they think that we should adopt more gun control and that is one reason why they like Canada better. I took the minute or so I had to give them my thoughts.

I said, "do criminals still have guns in Australia?" Of course they said yes. I went on to explain that criminals will always have guns, so why shouldn't law abiding citizens have guns to protect themselves and their families?

One of them said, "what if you get angry and in a fit of rage do something stupid with your guns?"

I also explained that I own several guns as do basically almost every person I come in contact with on a daily basis, and that none of us have gone crazy and killed people just because we have 24 hour access to guns.

They didn't have any argument to combat that line of thinking... Hopefully I just got the wheels in their minds turning... Maybe it shows them where we are coming from with gun ownership.

[irish_ironsight]

This may take a bit, and you may be bored BUT !

On Easter Monday, April 18, 1949, by the terms of the Republic of Ireland Bill approved by then Government it was agreed that in November 1948, the country then know as Eire would become became the Republic of Ireland, formally free of allegiance to the British crown and their Commonwealth of Nations.

Following this decision, for a number of reasons tensions between the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland who lived under British rule increased dramatically.

An increase of violence between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland was followed by IRA terrorist activity in the Irish Republic, so in 1971 the Government of the Republic of Ireland in an effort to restrict access to firearms for the Irish terrorists in the North, decided that they would simply apply a 30 day ban for its citizens on the purchase or holding of arms for use inside or outside Ireland, this move would take place at a stage to be set in the near future.

In 1972 the government required the surrender of all firearms, with the exception of a small number of shotguns to be held by farmers.
Being Law abiding people, the citizens of this country, in good faith that their arms would be returned to them, agreed to what had in law been created as a 30 day temporary measure to restrict access by terrorists to weapons and ammunition gave up their weapons.

Once they had our arms, after the 30 day's, they simply refused to give them back..... and then they disarmed the small number of armed Police. After all if people are disarmed the logic is that there can be no armed crime so the Police do not need to be armed.
Strangely enough the terrorists and the criminals who's arms were not registered never gave up their guns.

And so for the past 30 something years, we have been disarmed....
Only in the past few years have we through the use of the International courts and in part thanks to loopholes in European law have we been able to arm ourselves.

The general view of the public is that guns are bad, they kill people, this is as a result of the Media highlighting only the negative.

In a country that today is home to over 4 and a half million people there are currently Permits for:
180,000 shotgun permits
94,000 rifle permits
3500 handgun permits

Most members of the public in this country still believe that handguns are illegal.

[RMTactical]

So, how hard is it for an average joe to get a handgun legally over there? By the numbers, I would guess it's hard, or that people don't want them...

[irish_ironsight]

So, how hard is it for an average joe to get a handgun legally over there? .

To put it simply, VERY.

You must be a member of an accredited gun club

You must have access to a legally authorized firing range, of which there are only 2 in the country.

You must be willing and be able to afford to take the police to court.

You must have a better understanding of the Law than many of out police

[jeanjvr]

To put it simply, VERY.

You must be a member of an accredited gun club

You must have access to a legally authorized firing range, of which there are only 2 in the country.

You must be willing and be able to afford to take the police to court.

You must have a better understanding of the Law than many of out police

Damn, thats not good. We've got it a bit better over here...although

Taking the police to court: thats just what a collector over here in SA did. They refused him a license for a 50 cal BMG barrel. Just the barrel.

He appealed to the gun board. They shot him down.

He took it to the High Court. They shot him down.

He took the whole lot to the Appeal Court and won. The license got issued, the state had to cover all costs and the police and minister got spanked by the judges. :supergrin:


http://www.mazoe.com/lazarides.html

[jeanjvr]

RMTactical,

Hard to tell what most people in SA think. With such an extreme violent crime rate (alot of it with guns) some people want guns for defense while some would like a "gun free SA".

The soclialist gov pushes whatever laws they want through parliament because of their huge majority, so what I think doesn't matter.

[Nestor]

The latest police data published in June 2007 said out of Poland's 38 million population, some 23,000 people have registered firearms.

A Polish private magazine, with support from criminal law experts and some politicians, has launched a campaign to make gun licenses easier to obtain.

The Giwera (Gun) magazine, shooting clubs and firearms fans, appealed to police to make more liberal gun possession for ordinary Poles.

The idea is to make guns available to people in case they might need to defend their families and properties. However, restrictions on carrying guns in public would be upheld.

Cezary Grabarczyk, infrastructure minister, said he might support the idea. He was appointed minister when a new coalition government was formed by Prime Minister Donald Tusk of the liberal pro-EU Civic Platform.

Polish experts said laws liberalizing gun possession lessen a crime rate in a country, giving an example of the United States where a murder rate is much higher in states with restrictive laws than in states with liberal gun possession, the radio said.

However I don't believe it will work out here.
Too many people are anti-gun, and the police is recognized by many politicians as the only gun-guru in this country.
Guess what?
Polish police is totally anti-gun institution.
So, I'm moving to Canada :supergrin:

[BroBrandonB]

wow.

This has to be the most interesting thread I've read in GNG in well over a year.

I hope that more overseas GTer's pipe in.

[AC37]

What the rest of the world does regarding gun control is of concern to me, in the sense of objective ethical validity. No knock on any members from Europe here.

They are, after all, geographically speaking, the same batch of individuals that were perfectly comfortable with the belief in a flat earth, up to, and even well past, the discovery the New World.

[irish_ironsight]

They are, after all, geographically speaking, the same batch of individuals that were perfectly comfortable with the belief in a flat earth, up to, and even well past, the discovery the New World.

Well it was the IRISH that found the "New World" first
The Brendan Voyages, The 6th century voyage of St. Brendan to America is the most fascinating of sea legends.

Could the myth of an Irish monk and his crew sailing across the Atlantic in a boat made of leather, nearly a thousand years before Columbus, be a reality?
You bet it could

:tongueout:

[racerford]

Well it was the IRISH that found the "New World" first
The Brendan Voyages, The 6th century voyage of St. Brendan to America is the most fascinating of sea legends.

Could the myth of an Irish monk and his crew sailing across the Atlantic in a boat made of leather, nearly a thousand years before Columbus, be a reality?
You bet it could

:tongueout:

No offense, but I believe the Native American Indians found it first:tongueout: They walked over, and never went back. I would assume those they left behind figured they fell off the edge of the Earth:wow:

IIRC there is some evidence that the Polynesians and/or Japanese made trips as well. All of this well before the Europeans made contact.

Of course some weren't out to discover anything, they just got blown off course or went looking for food.

[usmc4641]

To put it simply, VERY.

You must be a member of an accredited gun club

You must have access to a legally authorized firing range, of which there are only 2 in the country.

You must be willing and be able to afford to take the police to court.

You must have a better understanding of the Law than many of out police
So I am going by your statement in assuming there is no handgun violence in Eire. Is this correct?

[irish_ironsight]

So I am going by your statement in assuming there is no handgun violence in Eire. Is this correct?

You would be perfectly 100% correct, us law abiding citizens do not partake of any hadngun related violence.....

The criminal element on the other hand, well they really don't worry about the law that much, they dont get licenses, they dont register their weapons and they sure as hell dont have private insurance policys in case of accident's.

And of course because the majority of Police are not armed theres not a whole lot that they can do about it. Only 10% of our force is armed, and they are even obliged to share weapons, they are not all issued take home or personal firearms..:rofl:
You have'nt lived until you roll up to a checkpoint here and an Officer asks where you are going, and when you tell him your going to the shooting range he asks if you are armed, and when you say yes, its so cute the way they jump and start to shout FREEZE before they realize theres nothing they can do about it, hell they only started to issue body amour to our Police force in the last 2 years..we still dont issue it to our corrections staff, we buy our.own

[costanza187]

http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Borat-flag.jpg

HIGH FIVE!

[Turtle13]

To all the people in Europe and the surrounding areas. Remember Hitler.....get your gun rights back. Hitler could have never done what he did if country after country of armed citizens stood in his way.

[HollowHead]

To all the people in Europe and the surrounding areas. Remember Hitler.....get your gun rights back. Hitler could have never done what he did if country after country of armed citizens stood in his way.

Hardly. The peasants of Europe weren't victims of any so-called, "gun control". They just couldn't afford them. Besides, the Wermacht of 1940 was walking over the standing armies of the time. The US even got their but handed to them the first time we met (North Africa). HH

[irish_ironsight]

To all the people in Europe and the surrounding areas. Remember Hitler......

Yes the people of Europe remember Hitler, but will the American People remember a bigger and much more imminent threat

Hillary is coming ! ! !

Who has the better chance of loosing their guns next....

[HollowHead]

A couple of thoughts from someone who has travelled and hunted/shot in Europe many times. Europeans are like our "fuds"...they just don't understand needing any firearm other than the one that can help put food on the table. The French, Germans, Italians, Spanish, etc. have vast and thriving hunting cultures and give little if any thought to the ownership of long guns. They don't "hate" handguns, they just don't "get" them. On a boar hunt in Tuscany it was cool to see men, women and children walking down country roads with slung rifles and picnic baskets. That night, I asked our host about handguns. He basically couldn't understand why I wanted to own a firearm that couldn't take down game at two hundred meters. When I politely responded with, "how about if someone wanted to break into your house...", he pointed to his cabinet with over twenty rifles and shotguns and said the the Italian equivalent to, "...and your point is?" I have similar tales to tell of France and Germany. I think they just don't see the need for handguns and really couldn't care less that they're hard to get legally. HH

[jjtroutbum]

Sorry! Don't think many of us will fall for the "let us borrow your guns. For a month." Thing on this side of the pond.

reminds me of Sir Charlton Heston's famous phrase "FROM MY COLD DEAD HAND."

[BOGE]

For jeanjvr, I have read your posts here as well as the other S. African fellow (can't remember his name) and I have just one question: in your opinion why is crime so prevalent now in S.A.?

[Rorsach]

Nothing wrong with the gun-control laws over here in the Netherlands. The population is too tightly wound as it is.
There's almost no hunting to speak of and the only people owning guns (for sports or hunting) are the ones that have been thoroughly checked and approved. Gun violence is also very low, the only people getting shot now and then are the criminals themselves.

I'm not saying that this is the solution for the USA though.

[jeanjvr]

For jeanjvr, I have read your posts here as well as the other S. African fellow (can't remember his name) and I have just one question: in your opinion why is crime so prevalent now in S.A.?

Thats a difficult one, but I'll list some thoughts.

1. Innefective government leading to innefective police. Our police commisioner is being charged with corruption as he was working with a well known mafia boss.

2. Corruption in all levels of gov, ties in with no 1.

3. Our borders are non-existant. Guns (mostly AK's) and illegal aliens flood our country.

4. Poor people who want to get rich quick. Rich criminals who want to get very rich.

[Critias]

Sorry! Don't think many of us will fall for the "let us borrow your guns. For a month." Thing on this side of the pond.

:upeyes: Sure we won't.

[aaronrkelly]

For starting a GOOD conversation about the need for firearms when speaking to those from across the pond, I usually whip out this poster.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w193/aaronsguns/sendgun.gif

That wasnt that long ago......but that will never happen again. :upeyes:

[Altaris]

Yes the people of Europe remember Hitler, but will the American People remember a bigger and much more imminent threat

Hillary is coming ! ! !

Who has the better chance of loosing their guns next....

OUCH!! :faint:
Ok, you win this round.



I like this thread. I enjoy hearing about how these laws are around the rest of the world.

[mitchshrader]

I have heard a few times about what great deals swiss rifles are.

When i found out how they practice, it became obvious why.

They shoot at 300 meters, and count the hits. That's all. That's what those 'canton' ranges are for, (counties, approximately, or parishes).. they're ALL like that. 300 meters, how many times you got an effective hit.. they don't care about groups. they just count the hits.

don't get swiss riflemen upset with you if they can see you. the guns will shoot straight, and they know what to do with them.

frankly, if I had the option of getting that sort of rifle competence EVERYWHERE in the US, i'd be a little less worried about handgun self defense, and my need for it.

I'll take a conscious public respect for the role of firearms in civil defense, as an improvement on fear and apathy.

And moreso than that, i'd PREFER not to have to carry a handgun. I'd PREFER to be able to leave my door unlocked. I've lived that way, I like it fine. I'd just as soon my handgun be in my desk drawer as on my hip, I'm not in love with the discipline and attention it takes, the training time or expense, the maintenance, the working around social disapproval. It sucketh, about like wearing a damn beeper going off all the time. PITA.

But, if ya NEED it, to defray risk of death or injury (in that order)..IF deadly force is a reasonable precaution against KNOWN RISKS OF ASSAULT.. pita ain't the big half. Ya just do it.

So, far as IF anybody asked ME what'd be the best possible gun control law, i'd say teach a semester of gun safety protocols and .22 rifle marksmanship in high school, and have .22 handgun as the 2nd half, optional for those who want it and can show competence. say, junior year for rifle, and seniors could take pistol. STILL .22's, some decent target guns. You could do all the 'parental consent' and 'ROTC' and 'LEO supervised' you WANTED. That would be FINE. It would integrate folks into the process, many as possible. That's the whole idea.

TEACH GUNS. we don't. it hurts us. 5, 10, 15 years later, it hurts us BAD. those folks vote, they know nothing about guns that isn't BAD.

what do you expect they'll do? they don't know any damn different.

who is gonna TEACH em different? Would you GIVE AWAY a gun to convert a gun grabber?

why NOT?

[irish_ironsight]

Sorry! Don't think many of us will fall for the "let us borrow your guns. For a month." Thing on this side of the pond.

reminds me of Sir Charlton Heston's famous phrase "FROM MY COLD DEAD HAND."

Ah friend, I cant help but wonder if 2 or 3 cops and half a dozen well armed soldiers knocked on your door and said "ALL YOUR GUN SIN THE BOX NOW PLEASE" or else :brickwall:

How would you react ? would you refuse, would you risk being in breach of the "Patriot Act"

No friend, like all the others throughout history, you would *****, moan, whinge, complain and comply !

[RMTactical]

Ah friend, I cant help but wonder if 2 or 3 cops and half a dozen well armed soldiers knocked on your door and said "ALL YOUR GUN SIN THE BOX NOW PLEASE" or else :brickwall:

How would you react ? would you refuse, would you risk being in breach of the "Patriot Act"

No friend, like all the others throughout history, you would *****, moan, whinge, complain and comply !

I seriously doubt it would come to that. There would be blood, and the cost of it would be outrageous... although, I shouldn't underestimate our govt to spend as much money as they possibly can...

Still, there would be enough resistant people that the casualties would be more than what is normally considered reasonable...

[irish_ironsight]

Unfortunately in 1972 thats what happened here, the police and military were used to collect the firearms, and after the first few gave up their arms, well the of the sheepple lost their will...
And I have no doubt that when the combined governments of European Union close all the present loopholes, that it will happen again.

[Bren]

I seriously doubt it would come to that. There would be blood, and the cost of it would be outrageous... although, I shouldn't underestimate our govt to spend as much money as they possibly can...

Still, there would be enough resistant people that the casualties would be more than what is normally considered reasonable...

You have too much faith in both the government and your fellow citizens.

[RMTactical]

You have too much faith in both the government and your fellow citizens.

I am an optimist, I admit it.

However, I wouldn't say I have too much faith in the govt. I know that they truly have no bounds...

[BroBrandonB]

I am an optimist, I admit it.



But more importantly... you are an American rifleman.
:faint: . . . . . . . . . . :50cal::patriot:

[BOGE]

Ah friend, I cant help but wonder if 2 or 3 cops and half a dozen well armed soldiers knocked on your door and said "ALL YOUR GUNS IN THE BOX NOW PLEASE" or else

After several shots they would run from my home screaming like little girls "it's Josey Wales!!!!!"

:whistling::supergrin::rofl:

[aquanomics]

I'm born and bred American with relatives and in-laws in France. In 1994 I met a distant cousin who was a ranking pistol shooter -- steel silhouettes. He owned a Dan Wesson .357,the permit for which took 3 years to acquire. He also told me he had to inventory ever bullet and case he reloaded and fired and submit his records for audit.

Last May we visited my wife's aunt and uncle. Uncle is and avid bird and rabbit hunter as are his sons. We never discussed the red tape involved in buying a shotgun, but uncle showed me a couple of old pistols he owns. He's a retired dentist and has been a police reserve member for decades which allows him a handgun permit (to own, not carry). Still, he must belong to a gun club and can only shoot the handguns at that club. At May-2007 exchange rates, .357 ammo was about US$ 3.00 per cartridge! It's more now.

He took me to a big store -- Terre et Eaux (earth & water) -- a French Bass Pro. I saw a Remington 1100 on the rack selling for US$3,000.00 at the exchange rate of that time.

The uncle also told me that a Euro can drive to either Brussels or Amsterdam, I forget which, and obtain just about any weapon you want on the black market. Pistols, full auto, grenade launchers whatever. Many gangsters and gang-bangers buy there on a regular basis.

So in France at least, it's very difficult to own a handgun, bordering on impossible, if you are a law abiding citizen. If you are a dirtbag with some cash you can drive a few hours and shop til you drop. Keep in mind there are few, if any border checks in the EU these days.

[irish_ironsight]

I'm born and bred American with relatives and in-laws in France.

And your willing to admit to this ? :rofl:

[speedracer815]

Unfortunatley USA politicians are much to smart to go after all the guns at once. They will divide and conquer, or use back door gun control. They will whittle us down until there's nothing left.

Currently there are bills in several states that would require serial numbered ammunition. The costs associated with this would make it almost impossible for us to shoot. Reloading would be illegal. The "filing fee" for the police record keeping is open ended and could increase at their pleasure.

Always remember that those who want our guns are surrounded by men with guns to protect them. Most are so far removed from the real world of everyday people that they cannot comprehend us, and therefore fear us. They don't want all the guns, just ours.

[Red Dane]

I'm another American born and bred guy.. I do have a lot of family members in Denmark who come from the extremely anti-gun, pro-gun control world where the government takes care of everything.

I almost ended up getting into an argument with them the last time they came to visit - over a rattlesnake that I had shot in the yard one day (came up as a topic of conversation). They were horrified that I would a) own a gun b) shoot it c) kill anything.

If their posture is indicative of the attitudes of the rest of Europe, they are in for a hard road if someone nasty slides in and takes over. I'm rather embarrassed to say that I'm related to those clowns, but I suppose every family has "those" members that the rest tries to ignore...

[pilot996]

One of them said, "what if you get angry and in a fit of rage do something stupid with your guns?"

I also explained that I own several guns as do basically almost every person I come in contact with on a daily basis, and that none of us have gone crazy and killed people just because we have 24 hour access to guns

the only problem i see with your argument is that, to them, you are still the 'wierdo' with guns and its been my experience that when a pro gun person argues for pro gun causes to an anti, they immediately tune you out because all they hear is 'gun this, gun that' and they know for a fact that they are against anything gun related.

i think, and i could be wrong, that it is more effective to use their own question on them. "you surely have steak knives, right? how many times have you been in a house hold argument and felt the need to take a knife and ram it into a loved one? you drive dont you? how many times have you been so filled with road rage that you had to plow 2 tons of steel into a fellow citizen at 80 km/hr?"

[Jade Falcon]

I have two Aussie girls that I chat with via MSN messenger, and we've known each other for years. One is awesome, Ninan (not her real name), who's admitted to having fun firing a .357 Magnum and "some other gun with a long barrel" lol.

The other chick is Sim (again, not her real name), who kinda gets on my nerves once in a while. She's one of those elitist who believes that the US government is some evil regime set to take over the world, and thinks guns are a thing of evil men. She REALLY gets on my nerves sometimes, but for the most part, when we chat, we avoid such topics for the sake of argument.

[Nestor]

I don't know why, but I have the feeling that I don't care any more about the local gun laws...or lack of them in fact.
Yeah baby!
I will see some guns soon (not as easy as in the USA, but still much better than here :cool:).

[aaronrkelly]

Ah friend, I cant help but wonder if 2 or 3 cops and half a dozen well armed soldiers knocked on your door and said "ALL YOUR GUN SIN THE BOX NOW PLEASE" or else :brickwall:

How would you react ? would you refuse, would you risk being in breach of the "Patriot Act"

No friend, like all the others throughout history, you would *****, moan, whinge, complain and comply !

Maybe YOUR history is littered with such instances, ours is NOT. We have not been disarmed in such manner. NOLA aside, it just hasnt happen.....and in the case of NOLA it wasnt a wide spread door to door disarm, it was very localized and the agenda of only 1 dept. Since then there have been several laws passed to assure that DOESNT happen again.

I believe approx 230 years ago the government in power tried something very similar.....seems we did pretty fair then. Our country was won by fighting an oppressive government - its ingrained in our culture. But I do agree that culture is dieing out slowly. At this point our right havent been eroded enough to attempt it, I would guarantee blood in the streets. 50 more years of piddling them away one asinine law at a time, it might happen.

Your also assuming that every officer, soldier etc would fall in line with the plan - Im here to tell you that isnt the case. There are TONS of law enforcement officers, soldiers, judges, sheriffs etc that believe in our rights to own weapons. While Im certain there would be enough to attempt the disarming, Im not certain it would get completed. Where I work we love citizens with guns, recommend them owning firearms and make it as easy as legally possible for them to carry them. We issue permits to carry as unrestricted as possible and with the LEAST amount of training possible by state law.....we dont want to make it hard.....we want to make it easy. In rural areas you will find this ALOT.....not so much in cities.

I know of several stops where officers have found loaded handguns, being carried by people or stashed in cars where the person had NO permit to carry. In some areas that would get you drug out of the car, face down and on the way to jail. We dont feel threatened by the mere presence of a gun. Unless the subject is partaking in a criminal act or unlawfully allowed to own weapon they get some information about the law, they unload their pistol and we send them on their way. Quite a few of us think a copy of the 2nd Amendment is plenty enough "carry permit" and wish the law was as such.

There are plenty of us "good guys" to counterbalance the bad ones. Atleast for the time being.

[brickboy240]

Being half Swedish and half Irish-American, I have discussed guns and self defense with my Swedish cousins as well as my Aussie brother-in-law and a few friends that are Canadian ex-pats. I have some to this conclusion: Europeans, the UK and its commonwealths and former lands have some very bizarre views towards firearms and self defense.

For the most part, they view onwing firearms as barbaric and somewhat beneath them. They are "too civilized" to use a gun for defense. Oddly enough, they are also against capitol punishment.

When I ask them "well...what about the criminals that have guns?" they have no answer. They just prefer to play ostrich and forget about it...until it happens.

Its hard to gauge this correctly because Sweden is so different from the USA. Sweden has a less diverse racial make-up, it has a colder climate and is not as heavily populated as many US urban areas. Therefore...yeah...crime is not going to be such an issue. It DOES happen, though...more than you'd think.

I generally like all Europeans and UK peoples I meet and know, but their views on self defense and guns are truly bizarre. I just don't understand their squeamishness and lack of action.

Being half- Irish...I love a good fight and if they want to take my guns..well...they've got a fight on their hands! Like General Zapata said "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."

- Brickboy240

[PDogSniper]

Gun violence is also very low, the only people getting shot now and then are the criminals themselves.

I'm not saying that this is the solution for the USA though.


Gun violence isn't the only issue. What about violence in general that one would need a gun to protect themselves...?

[PDogSniper]

Hardly. The peasants of Europe weren't victims of any so-called, "gun control". They just couldn't afford them. Besides, the Wermacht of 1940 was walking over the standing armies of the time. The US even got their but handed to them the first time we met (North Africa). HH

It need'nt be about gun control...

As far as resistance I believe the Poles did a heroic job during WWII but just didn't have the resources....

[irish_ironsight]

This is directly from the Irish Department of Justice !

Firearms certificates are only granted for recreational or sporting purposes. You will not be granted a licence for any weapon for the purposes of personal protection, protection of others or the protection of property.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Licensing_legally_held_firearms


Open that an then open and read Information on firearms licensing (Microsoft Word – 52KB)
Then you will have an understanding of what we are up against.

[PSU_G34]

Well it was the IRISH that found the "New World" first
The Brendan Voyages, The 6th century voyage of St. Brendan to America is the most fascinating of sea legends.

Could the myth of an Irish monk and his crew sailing across the Atlantic in a boat made of leather, nearly a thousand years before Columbus, be a reality?
You bet it could

:tongueout:

My namesake :wavey:

[aquanomics]

And your willing to admit to this ? :rofl:

Very funny Mick.

Most people forget that a Frenchman invented the first modern bullet.

I'm going to the range tonight to shoot a few of my many handguns. Saturday is outdoor range day rifle practice.

What are you doing?

[Alpine]

What the rest of the world does regarding gun control is of concern to me, in the sense of objective ethical validity. No knock on any members from Europe here.

They are, after all, geographically speaking, the same batch of individuals that were perfectly comfortable with the belief in a flat earth, up to, and even well past, the discovery the New World.

They are also, historically speaking, the same people whose ancestors came here and created a competent, self-reliant civilization from scratch in the middle of a harsh wilderness. To this day Czech and German is still spoken in some places in Texas. There are plenty of Texans of Irish and Polish descent too.

I am enjoying hearing about their modern gun situations!

P.S. Almost forgot the Wends. They are still here too. They even have a Wendish museum somewhere between Austin and Houston.

[Badger54]

I have been living in the UK for the past 10 years (got dragged here after my parents divorced), and from what I've seen the UK must have some of the most draconian laws regarding firearms and self defense. Handguns and rifles (there might be a few rifle clubs left but these are virtually unheard of and membership is probably not easily obtained, Rifles are kept on the premises of the club) are illegal and to be found in possessing of one could carry a 10 year prison sentence. It is possible to get a license for a 12 bore shotgun (single shot only) that has to be kept locked in a concealed safe that is bolted to the floor with the ammunition stored in another safe in a separate location, but it is impossible to get a shotgun license unless you are a farmer or a member of the royal family. Air guns are also heavily regulated and very expensive a replica beretta 92fs goes for on average $250(the government is trying to ban them at present). It is also illegal to keep or use anything for self defense both in your home (people have been prosecuted for attacking burglars), business and on your person. Batons, and what the government determines as combat knifes are illegal (you are allowed to carry with "good reason" a non locking folding knife with a blade less then 3" "good reason" is left up to the police protection not being one of them.). Tasers and pepper spray are classed as firearms and as such being in possession of either would land you in jail for several years. Even police officers would be arrested if found carrying either a baton or pepper spray when off duty (regular police don't carry tasers at present).
Criminals have it pretty easy here, if someone pulls a gun on a police officer that officer has to retreat and call in an armed officer which could take outside of a big city 3/4 of an hour to arrive. The area I live in the police station is open Mon-sat 9am-5pm after which the nearest open station is a 2 hour drive away. A couple of years ago the place were I work was broken into the police eventually caught the person and he admitted to a string of other burglaries in the area and was given counseling and a $100 dollar fine.
Most English people I've met don't appeared to bothered by the gun bans and any future one, but people are fed up with crime and the governments soft approach to it but the idea of owning guns to defend themselves or even arming the police is viewed as something that would escalate the problem. Having said that I am fortunate that the people I work with grew up with guns and are angry they are banned from owning them (all over 60 years old) one of them had a collection that at the time of the ban was worth $12,000 all of which had to be handed in for destruction by the police without any compensation. They all no I plan on (and are envious ) getting a CCW permit when I get back to the states in a couple of months but I wouldn't dare tell any one else I planned on owning a gun let alone carry one for protection as I would probably be viewed as a nutcase by the majority of people.

[Rorsach]

The uncle also told me that a Euro can drive to either Brussels or Amsterdam, I forget which, and obtain just about any weapon you want on the black market. Pistols, full auto, grenade launchers whatever. Many gangsters and gang-bangers buy there on a regular basis.

If you are a dirtbag with some cash you can drive a few hours and shop til you drop.

:rofl:

And you believe everything an Uncle tells you?

[Fox]

Unfortunately in 1972 thats what happened here, the police and military were used to collect the firearms, and after the first few gave up their arms, well the of the sheepple lost their will...
And I have no doubt that when the combined governments of European Union close all the present loopholes, that it will happen again.

We saw that happen here in New Orleans.

[doktor doom]

This is one of the best glocktalk threads in a long time.

I have to agree with the above assessment of britons and europeans in general. In my travels in europe, when I casually mentioned to someone that back at home I might drop a .38 into my pocket before going to the office, people thought I was a lunatic.:rofl:

A dutch exchange student (one time back in my university years) got bold, and asked to see my gun. I'd probably been running on at the mouth, and she probably didn't believe that a 21 yr old kid had a gun in his crappy collegiate apartment. So I got the Ithaca 37 out of the closet and racked the slide for her:supergrin:
I can still remember the look on her face:shocked:

I used to work for someone who employed Scottish illegal immigrants (well not really, but it's a long story), and we talked about this subject all the time. The scots all thought i was a bit "odd", owning guns and shooting them and all, but the amazing thing was that after a hundred talks, I realized they just didn't accept the american concept of self-defense.

They just didn't believe that if some one was to commit injury upon you you had a right to fight back, and sure as hell not with deadly force. The only type of physical resistance they believed in was maybe fisticuffs, and any physical disparities, well, tough. :faint: you just had to take the beating, part with your property or, worse. After all, it isn't "worth it."

[irish_ironsight]

This is one of the best glocktalk threads in a long time.
They just didn't believe that if some one was to commit injury upon you you had a right to fight back, and sure as hell not with deadly force. The only type of physical resistance they believed in was maybe fisticuffs, and any physical disparities, well, tough. :faint: you just had to take the beating, part with your property or, worse. After all, it isn't "worth it."

Consider if you will, Generations of folk's who have been punished again and again and again for defending themselves, who had their rights eroded by consecutive governments, the majority of people have simply lost the will to defend themselves and or their property for fear of being prosecuted.

Example in point would be Tony Martin in the U.K, a farmer who shot an intruder in his own home with a legally held shotgun, and was then sentenced to life in prison for his CRIME, yes killing in self defense is regarded as a CRIME.

Or the Irish farmer, Padraig Nally, sentenced to 6 years for manslaughter when he shot and killed an intruder in his home...

Oh yes people of the USA .. Hillary is coming, be afraid, be very afraid, sorry I just like to annoy you all because you can do what we cant ! :whistling:

[G36's Rule]

Just curious.

Seems like most people in countries like Canada, England, and Austrailia, etc... are happy with gun control in general. It's pretty sad. Many of them not only accept it, but embrace it...




RM, great idea for a thread. I hope it remains civil so I can get some knowledge from it as well.

[doktor doom]

Yeah, I like to call it the 1950's attitude about crime, which much of my family unfortunately holds to: Crime is economically motivated. If you give them your property or $$, "then they will just go away." You know, the Johnny Cash-esque notion that they're just so damn hungry, they had to steal. Unfortunately, this idea is based upon a near extinct type of criminal- one who turns to crime out of desperation. It ignores that many criminals today are sociopaths, and steal because they are lazy, have a sense of entitlement ("rich people is only be rich cuz dey stole from someone else, dawg, so it ok to take it back"). There are also criminals who are truly hungry... for CRACK!

A pistol instructor once told me "once you submit to an assailant, you put yourself at their mercy. If you're lucky, maybe all they want is your $$, but once you are under their control, they can do anything to you they want."

Not all crime is in furtherance of monetary gain. What cops call ODCs (ordinary, decent criminal) are in shorter and shorter supply. What if they don't want to rob you, but rape you (or your daughter or wife)? Or think that by murdering you after the robbery they will leave no witnesses, and therefore get away with it. Or they are a wannabe gansta and are just trying to make their bones.

Sorry homey, not me. I ain't tha one. You picked the wrong white boy to f&%k wit. I'll blow your gold teefs out da back'a yo head.

[doktor doom]

And yeah, we talked about Tony Martin, the prosecuted farmer. The Scots all told me "well, he was a bit of a nutter."

Love the accent, hate the mentality.

[irish_ironsight]

And yeah, we talked about Tony Martin, the prosecuted farmer. The Scots all told me "well, he was a bit of a nutter."
.

Regardless of peoples attitudes towards an individual the man surely he should have been entitled to defend himself.

[BOGE]

In the U.K. the mentality that made the "thin red line" has died. R.I.P. Rest assured there are many in the U.S. who will NEVER forfeit their arms. However, the larger problem is the next generation having the "touchy feely" Leftist tripe shoved down their gullets in this abortion we call an educational system here. The "wussification" of the U.S. continues. :embarassed:

[captainstormy]

Regardless of peoples attitudes towards an individual the man surely he should have been entitled to defend himself.

We absolutly agree with you here in the US. The vast majority of Americans view killing an intruder in your home as a perfectly acceptable thing. There are some that don't but over here they are the the "nutters".

Personally if someone broke into my home while I was home they would meet my Remington 870. I would be far more worried about what household cleaner gets blood off of walls and carpet then I would be about any legal ramifications for killing the intruder.

Speaking of which, what would clean that up lol.

[chongfa]

I am originally from Thailand and we have a pretty strict gun laws and there are still robbery and murder with firearms that occur on the daily basis.

US citizen should cherish and enjoy their freedom and defend it before it is gone for good.

[doktor doom]

But to get back on topic, I have found in my european travels that there is a small, but active gun culture Over There, and it is very much like our "Fudds." I suspect that European gun owners are also much more monied than the average American gun owner, because, well, hunting IS the sport of kings.:upeyes:

I have seen a shop stocking Glocks in Vienna, an air rifle marksmanship competition (at an obvious gun club) in the southern Nederlands, and a beautifully and ornately engraved 357 in a shop in the Rhineland. What does it cost to pay to play? I have no idea, but there are some who will step up, and pay it.

Also, European gun laws are not so monolithic as most americans may think. Some of the former soviet satellites (poland, Czech rep.) are a little more receptive to our ideas about the subject than, say, England's. The Czechs have a hunting tradition that seems to be a bit more democratic than say, (once again) Englands. And, as mentioned above, what may be OK in parts of Italy, Spain or western Germany, sure won't fly in maybe Belgium or holland. Hell, it can vary inside a given nation; what might be ok in a town outside Koblenz would never be permitted in Berlin. And the Swiss are totally anomalous to the whole region.


Still, it is a trip, while walking down the lovely steets of Rothenburg ob der Tauer, to think that back in the states I have enough armaments in my closet to forcibly occupy the city:tongueout::tongueout::tongueout:

[irish_ironsight]

To give you an idea of what we have to deal with in Ireland

From: an irish arms dealer
Sent:
To: irish_ironsight
Subject: Re: Message from an irish arms dealer



Hi irish_ironsight

Thanks for your enquiry about the SIG SAUER sport 552, can you tell me what kind of a end use you have for this gun ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that is a degree of Bull excrement, I contact a dealer to enquire about a specific rifle, and the interrogation starts immediately.
If that was the USA, you would walk away and go to another dealer

[BroBrandonB]

To give you an idea of what we have to deal with in Ireland

From: an irish arms dealer
Sent:
To: irish_ironsight
Subject: Re: Message from an irish arms dealer



Hi irish_ironsight

Thanks for your enquiry about the SIG SAUER sport 552, can you tell me what kind of a end use you have for this gun ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that is a degree of Bull excrement, I contact a dealer to enquire about a specific rifle, and the interrogation starts immediately.
If that was the USA, you would walk away and go to another dealer

wow. The first thing that comes to mind for me is "none of your business". I'll add that when I applied for my concealed carry permit here in PA, they do want to know what reason you need a permit for.
I checked the preprinted box that said, "Self Defense". That is totally acceptable around here.

Goodness, I really love America.

Also, Irish_iron : Mrs.BBB is Irish (by heritage) and when I related the story of Tony Martin and Padraig Nally - she couldn't even believe it. She is still in contact with some of her family over there and maybe I'll get her to prod the idea of guns with them sometime. I don't know how they sit on the subject, but her late Irish Grandfather was anti-gun thru and thru. Drove me nuts to talk with the guy, between the anti gun mindset and thick accent I couldn't understand what they guy was saying OR thinking. :whistling:

[RMTactical]

To give you an idea of what we have to deal with in Ireland

From: an irish arms dealer
Sent:
To: irish_ironsight
Subject: Re: Message from an irish arms dealer



Hi irish_ironsight

Thanks for your enquiry about the SIG SAUER sport 552, can you tell me what kind of a end use you have for this gun ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that is a degree of Bull excrement, I contact a dealer to enquire about a specific rifle, and the interrogation starts immediately.
If that was the USA, you would walk away and go to another dealer

Hmmm.... That is interesting. And yes, I would be irritated if a dealer treated me like that here.

Dealers all have the same mindset as most CCW holders here, that you have the right to defend your life from those who would do you harm.

Even many police officers are happy to have gun owning law abiding citizens. What it means for them is, if a citizen uses his firearm to defend his life lawfully, there is one less dirtbag he will possibly have to deal with on the streets.

[irish_ironsight]

Despite the recent shootings on Europe’s streets and in the schools of the USA, the majority of Europeans mistakenly continue to pride themselves on their strict gun laws. Every time an American gunman goes on a killing spree, Europeans shake their heads in disbelief at our poor misguided colonial cousins. Why is it, even after the The Northern Illinois University shooting this week & the Virginia Tech incident, that Americans still resist calls for more gun controls?

The short answer is that “gun control” does not work,

The regrettable Virginia Tech incident, where 32 students were shot in April last year, had a strict gun ban policy, a so called “Gun Free” zone
The Northern Illinois University shooting this week equally as saddening had a strict gun ban policy, another so called “Gun Free” zone
These so called “Gun Free” zone’s serve only to disarm those people who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Law abiding citizen’s will simply not break these rule’s.

Such laws and rules only make things worse for the potential victim’s and better for the criminal assailants.

After the Virginia Tech incident, I remember reading of a similar tragedy which occurred at Virginia’s Appalachian Law School in 2002, sadly there where lives lost there too. BUT !
When another student got his own pistol from his car outside of the "Gun Free" zone, he was able to stop the gunman.

All over Europe the image of violent America remains entrenched in people’s mind’s, thank you Hollywood !

In 2003 the British Home Office, published a survey by the International Crime Victims Survey group, this clearly showed (that despite the U.Ks strict firearm’s law’s) that per capita of population they were and still are suffering three times the level of violent crime committed in the United States. Oddly enough the paper did not prove popular and was very soon withdrawn.
Gun control disarms only the law-abiding,
Gun control leaves predators free to do as they will

[RMTactical]

Gun control (the idea that it works) may just be one of the biggest deceptions ever pulled off on some countries...

[aquanomics]

:rofl:

And you believe everything an Uncle tells you?

He's a reliable guy. Besides, the bad guys in Europe have lots of firearms -- google gun violence {insert country here} -- and they got them somewhere. I don't think Davidson's delivers to France/UK/Germany.

[irish_ironsight]

This subject needs a good BUMP

[cloudbuster]

Nothing wrong with the gun-control laws over here in the Netherlands. The population is too tightly wound as it is.
There's almost no hunting to speak of and the only people owning guns (for sports or hunting) are the ones that have been thoroughly checked and approved. Gun violence is also very low, the only people getting shot now and then are the criminals themselves.

I'm not saying that this is the solution for the USA though.

"Gun violence" is very low. I love that phrase, "gun violence." What's more pertinent is how's your overall level of generic old violence and crime? Britain's level of "gun violence" is pretty darn low but that's not particularly impressive since their level of non-gun violence is quite high. It doesn't really matter a whole lot to me if some rampaging punks shoot me or beat me with a tire iron. They both stink. Actually, all-in-all I think I might rather be shot. Once someone starts going at you with a tire iron, it gets pretty ugly fast.

[mitchshrader]

Best I know how, i'm teaching my kids to be armed and responsible for their own defense.

More than that, I'm accumulating supplies for their use, and encouraging all of my relatives to do so. I do not think we will have 'gun rights' in ten years if the country has not changed course. Stock To Hell UP.. and I don't mean range toys.

Guns That Work , and enough ammo. If you don't have too much you don't have enough. This is the year you WISH you'ld stocked up, next year.

[cloudbuster]

Speaking of which, what would clean that up lol.

Hydrogen Peroxide is the best thing for blood. :whistling:

[Andrewsky]

Luxembourg is a gun paradise. Before you make any wisecracks about its size, it does have 450,000 people.

I believe a basic safety permit is required, and concealed carry is difficult, but anyone over 19 may own fully automatic weapons with an easy to obtain permit. There are no import restrictions. It's not a law, but none of the ranges allow full auto so if you have a machine gun the selector must be blocked to semi-auto. Full autos are fine to have at home though.

[RMTactical]

Actually, all-in-all I think I might rather be shot.

The way I see it. The criminals will have their weapons and guns, so why can't the law-abiding citizens?

Sure, let them shoot at me (if they must), so long as I can shoot back.

[Clyde in CO]

Ah friend, I cant help but wonder if 2 or 3 cops and half a dozen well armed soldiers knocked on your door and said "ALL YOUR GUN SIN THE BOX NOW PLEASE" or else :brickwall:

How would you react ? would you refuse, would you risk being in breach of the "Patriot Act"

No friend, like all the others throughout history, you would *****, moan, whinge, complain and comply !

I always get in trouble when I answer this question.

Can anybody guess what my answer is?

[Andrewsky]

I always get in trouble when I answer this question.

Can anybody guess what my answer is?

"Raid the local law enforcement office" would be a good answer.