Who here hunts with an 'AR' [Archive] - Glock Talk

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06-02-2002, 08:51
I know I do for most game Deer on down.

I am left handed, and right eye dom. I shoot right handed, and find that a scoped AR (Bushmaster) works nicely.

What's your opinion on using these AR type rifles for hunting.

WalterGA
06-02-2002, 11:39
I have a couple of friends who hunt deer with AR's. One of 'em is a Marine Patrol Officer in an adjoining State. They seem to do o.k., but they are good marksmen and don't try any long shots. Deer around here don't get very big..not much over 275# or so.

bbauman
06-02-2002, 13:46
Yes for coyotes and other varmits. For deer I go with something a bit bigger.

44 Dan
06-02-2002, 16:24
I use my AR-10A2 on just about everything from rodents to coyotes.


We're still waiting/hoping on getting a Deer or Elk tag. Who knows maybe this year we'll get lucky.

Later, 44 Dan

trapfan
06-02-2002, 20:55
I have used my AR15 for everything from Russian wild boar to Ground Hogs. Took a 326lb Wild Boar with Winchester 64gr. Power Points. It took two head shots but he went down. Have harvested many Michigan Whitetail Deer too. I am very fond of the .223/5.56 round and have used it for years. My Dad put 27 years in at Cadillac Gage where Eugene Stoner made the Stoner63 weapons system. Stoner was the father of the AR15/M16 style weapon system so at a young age I got to see what the .223/5.56 round will do.;) ;) ;)

DJ Niner
06-03-2002, 17:57
Varmints and fur-bearing critters (fox and coyote). Moving targets are good practice for...moving targets!;f

sarge
06-04-2002, 08:25
My son and I use them for coyotes and fox, nothing larger.

USMCsilver
06-27-2002, 11:26
From beavers to squirrells to hogs to tweetie birds, yep!

glockster96
06-27-2002, 11:32
I don't know if you can call it hunting, but I shoot prairie dogs with my ARs. :)

06-27-2002, 14:56
Glockster.

Yes. Those count.

Thanks for the input all. I just got my Armalite AR-10/A4.
Green, with a 20"bbl, and removable sights.

I shot it the other day. Just like the Bushmaster XM15E2S...Right on the money.

saigonsmuggler
06-29-2002, 14:50
Yep count me in too! Used a Bushmaster AR (55-gr softpoints) a few years back on some mule deers (around 180 lbs). Lung shots are awesome - only ran about 150 yards.

Esox357
06-30-2002, 14:14
Not yet, but plan on using it for my varmiting needs. I will use it primarily for coyote and crow and if luck would have it a bobcat. Esox357

IPSC-1
07-03-2002, 09:06
Originally posted by saigonsmuggler
Yep count me in too! Used a Bushmaster AR (55-gr softpoints) a few years back on some mule deers (around 180 lbs). Lung shots are awesome - only ran about 150 yards.

Only ran 150yds?!!! What the hell kind of hunter are you?
Use enough gun! Guys like you p*ss me off. Blood pressure going up...

vettman1
07-03-2002, 10:16
So what do you think about people who hunt with a bow? I've seen them track animals for hours before they find it dead or even still wounded and have to finish it off with another arrow or a knife. An AR can put down deer if hit well, but sometimes it doesn't go well and even with larger caliber rifles they run. Not meaning to flame, just stating the facts.

IPSC-1
07-03-2002, 10:31
OK, I'm an avid deer hunter and I respect these animals immensely. I grew up hunting deer in Northern Maine (where they are known for being large and very resilient.)
The smallest rifle caliber I've ever hunted whitetail with is a .270 Win. however, I prefer a .30 cal bullet. I've also used 44 mag in a revolver, primarily from a tree stand.
In the 19 whitetail I've shot, I have never had to track one. They have always been lying on the ground in the same spot they were standing when I broke the shot. Luck? I don't think so. This is the direct result of using the correct tool (read: caliber) combined with shot placement.
.223 is a varmint caliber. Its not suited for whitetail.
Part of being a good hunter/sportsman is using the correct tool. Making a clean kill should be paramount, and 223 does not lend itself to clean quick kills. Anyone who uses a .223 for whitetail {IMO} is an irresponsible hunter who is not giving the animal the respect it deserves. {Flame suit on}

Edited to add: This thread isn't about bow hunting. Start a new thread if you want to change the subject.

saigonsmuggler
07-03-2002, 11:37
Originally posted by IPSC-1
OK, I'm an avid deer hunter and I respect these animals immensely. I grew up hunting deer in Northern Maine (where they are known for being large and very resilient.)
The smallest rifle caliber I've ever hunted whitetail with is a .270 Win. however, I prefer a .30 cal bullet. I've also used 44 mag in a revolver, primarily from a tree stand.
In the 19 whitetail I've shot, I have never had to track one. They have always been lying on the ground in the same spot they were standing when I broke the shot. Luck? I don't think so. This is the direct result of using the correct tool (read: caliber) combined with shot placement.
.223 is a varmint caliber. Its not suited for whitetail.
Part of being a good hunter/sportsman is using the correct tool. Making a clean kill should be paramount, and 223 does not lend itself to clean quick kills. Anyone who uses a .223 for whitetail {IMO} is an irresponsible hunter who is not giving the animal the respect it deserves. {Flame suit on}

Edited to add: This thread isn't about bow hunting. Start a new thread if you want to change the subject.
19 deers falling on the same spots? Yeah uh huh... right...

I have used and seen deers taking solid lung shots with .308 and .30-06 and ran for more than 100 yards before collapsing. Actually upon dressing, I have noticed that .223 tends to pulverizes the lungs more than .308. And when they dropped, they are as dead as door nails.

Unless you have solid hits in the spine, heart the deer is probably gonna run a good distance.

trapfan
07-03-2002, 14:33
I have seen way too many {Outdoorsmen} at the range who say you have to have -- cal. or a slug to kill a deer. I have then seen the same guy not hold a group in a 10 inch paper plate at 50 yards and then say "I am ready for the deer woods now". Most think if you use a 3 and a half inch slug if you hit deer any place they will go down but that is not true. Poor shot placement with a .50 cal BMG is still poor shot placement. I would rather hit the deer with a well placed shot with a .223/5.56 then a poor shot with a super magnum. The trick to harvesting deer with the .223 is SHOT PLACEMENT. Do not pull the switch untill you are sure you have a killing shot. The .223/5.56 will do a great job with proper bullet and good shot placement.

IPSC-1
07-08-2002, 06:52
Originally posted by saigonsmuggler

19 deers falling on the same spots? Yeah uh huh... right...

I have used and seen deers taking solid lung shots with .308 and .30-06 and ran for more than 100 yards before collapsing. Actually upon dressing, I have noticed that .223 tends to pulverizes the lungs more than .308. And when they dropped, they are as dead as door nails.

Unless you have solid hits in the spine, heart the deer is probably gonna run a good distance.

You find it hard to believe that I've made 19 clean, one shot kills on whitetail (from a treestand)? Its not suprising this seems impossible to you.
You must be one of the guys using a varmint caliber to shoot whitetail...and it shows.
You know those full size deer targets with the "kill zone" printed on it? Thats where I shoot. Suprising as it may sound, they are always laying on the ground dead as a doornail. Never had one run and I don't intend to.

saigonsmuggler
07-16-2002, 10:41
Actually I might make an argument that for deer size animals, .223 is very effective. When using HPs or softpoints, the 55 to 62-grain bullet usually would not exit the deer, thus dumping all of its energy into the target.

You would most likely have exit wounds if you use .308, .30-06 on deers in broadside shots.

07-17-2002, 00:25
You cant miss fast enough to win (or to survive) If you hunt responsibly you need to be on target.

I go to our local "Sight in Days" at the range, and watch guys sight in the 300 ultra-mag and say it's for deer. Then they go shoot the "Running Buck". This is a Mule Deer target that moves away from you from about 100yards to 130, yards at an angle full speed it is realistic of shots taken in the field here(Not too many tree stands around too much brush.).

It has been my experience that many folks do well on the sand bags, and miss on the moving target. It is fantastic reality based training. Ok. It is also a lot of fun. I find that I can hit right were I aim with my AR. while some of the guys with bigger bore guns do not fare as well.

In Western Oregon(RAIN FOREST)shots are usualy under 200 yards.

For those ranges the 64 grn JSP Winchester Power Point Plus works like a charm.

Happy Safe Hunting All.

paynter2
07-18-2002, 15:45
saigonsmuggler:

"Actually I might make an argument that for deer size animals, .223 is very effective. When using HPs or softpoints, the 55 to 62-grain bullet usually would not exit the deer, thus dumping all of its energy into the target.

You would most likely have exit wounds if you use .308, .30-06 on deers in broadside shots."


That's why I went to a 6mm REM. My 30-06 bullits were exiting the beast.

badbilly429
07-18-2002, 15:55
i have killed about 6 white tails, with one shot. i take out the shoulder, and ususally get the heart and lungs with it, with 30.06 165 gr ballistic tips. ive shot 2 others 1 that ran 10 yards, and another that ran about 50.

walterga, i want to go hunting over by you, 275 # whitetails ?
thats a whola lotta deer! and a whole lotta jerky!

WalterGA
07-18-2002, 16:41
"walterga, i want to go hunting over by you, 275 # whitetails ?"

I don't hunt deer, but we do have some pretty large deer hereabouts. Lots of row crops and good cover for deer. Killing a deer doesn't require a great deal of skill, at the ranges at which most deer are killed. If deer hunting were very difficult, those 8-yr-old girls, shooting SKS's couldn't kill them so easily.

A .223 has much more energy than many handgun rounds that people use for deer hunting.

I do believe that 19 non-running deer, shot from a stand is doable. Also believe that the same results would have been had with a good .243.

paynter2
07-19-2002, 14:17
I think 19 downed deer from a stand is doable too. I think weather a deer goes down right away or not depends on shot placement - more than calibre.

Personally, given a choice, I don't shoot for the shoulder - I don't like to 'blow up' the animal like that. I'll shoot right behind the elbow - right in the lungs. No meat damage and the animal will go down 8 out of 10 times. The other 2 times it may run a few yards.

yah - blowing up the shoulder will put them down. But, it's not the .270, 308, or 30-06 thats doing it - it's bullit energy hitting all that bone mass and the animal forced to absorb all that energy
that counts.

BKD in Texas
07-20-2002, 18:10
IPSC-1. I'm calling BS on this.

In what exact part of their anatomy did you shoot these 19 deer? Unless they were all neck or head shots, I simply don't believe you.

I've killed 35 to 40 deer myself and seen a few more shot by others. Unless you get a CNS hit, a deer shot even through the heart or both lungs, is going to run a bit, much more often than not. Occasionally they will drop in their tracks with a heart/lung hit, but only occasionally. If you shoot 19 deer in the heart/lung area in a row, I would bet my next monthly paycheck over 50% of them would run some distance. Probably more like 75% would. They won't go far with a good hit, but they will run...

So, care to clarify your shot placement?

Take Care,
BKD

IPSC-1
07-21-2002, 07:41
Originally posted by BKD in Texas
So, care to clarify your shot placement?

BKD,
I'd be happy to. While I'm at it I'll claify on the rifle and ammo combination as well as the distance and angle.

I use a Ruger M77 30-06, w/Federal Premium 165Gr soft points.
http://personalpages.tds.net/~eflanagin/Ruger_M77.JPG

My tree stand is 20 ft above the ground. Most shots are
taken quite close (under 60 yds) as the stand overlooks an apple orchard and the trails enter the orchard close to my stand.
Because the stand is elevated, most shots hit high and exit low. This is the area I aim for: (I usually hit higer up on the shoulder do to the angle) :
http://personalpages.tds.net/~eflanagin/Deer.jpg
Keep in mind that I am elevated, and my shots usually land a bit high and exit a bit low (yes, they always exit the animal). I'm not sure if this has anything to do with one shot drops, but it is a commonality between all 19 deer harvested so I'll mention it.
Also keep in mind that I have lots of time to aim, and I have NEVER
taken a shot that I was unsure of (ie thru brush) although I've heard
this is common practice with some hunters.
Sir, call BS and bet your paycheck if you must. I stand firm on
what has happend in the woods. I have no witness other than my eyes and the trees in the woods. If I did, I'd be looking for your check in the mail.;c Afterall...The proof is in the freezer.

Take care,
IPSC-1

BKD in Texas
07-21-2002, 13:24
IPSC-1,

I was not trying to question your honesty, only your description of how you were shooting. On the shot placement you illustrate, I stand by my words. Nineteen deer in a row WOULD NOT drop in their tracks on that placement... I would still bet a paycheck on it, if we could set it up somehow... I have a video camera and shoot about 4 deer a season, with the opportunity to film a few more. Do you? :>)

However you mention your shots going high and exiting low, indicating
perhaps you are shooting virtually straight down at the deer. Are you perhaps catching the SPINE then(SPINE=CNS hit)? If so, I'll buy it. I've anchored three deer in their tracks with handguns, on these upper shoulder SPINE shots. (e.g. I was aiming at the shoulder and the shot went a little high and hit the spine.) The deer were immobilized.

But again, on more deer than not - a shot through the heart/lung area will result in a run some of some distance before piling up. Usually less than 100 yards, but sometimes more.

I have also noticed this "run" behavior is more prevalent on deer that are shot with "over-bulleted", heavy, large calibers. By that I mean people shooting whitetail with 180 gr. -220 gr. .30 cal bullets designed for larger game. These bullets (particulary if no or little bone is hit) tend to zip through with little or no expansion, and the deer does the typical 100 -200 yard dash before bleeding out.

It is just as possible to use "too much" gun, as too little on whitetails, and either will produce similar results. Both extremes with work with exact shot placement however.

I learn more about calibers and shot placement every season, and become a better hunter because of it. But, there are a lot of old wives tales out there that are causing people misery I believe.

Take Care,
BKD

ButchC
07-21-2002, 14:05
BKD- Not a flame, but I think you might lose that bet. I've shot many more than 19 whitetail in the last 20yrs with basically the same bullet placement (perhaps a couple inches to the right) from a similar position (under 150yds, from elevated stands on power line ROW) with calibers ranging from .257 Roberts to 30-06.

Never have I had a deer move more than 10 feet after the shot and most just fell where they stood. The shots didn't always exit the animal, but that shot placement wrecked the shoulder, heart and lungs everytime. I've never had a CNS hit on a deer.

Just an observation...

BKD in Texas
07-21-2002, 16:06
Hello ButchC,

No I still think I would win the bet. Did you just say you usually destroyed the front shoulders? OK, they may not go far with both front shoulders destroyed (although they might surprise you!) However, if you have shot over 19 deer with the shot placement shown on the illustration - and NEVER had one go over ten feet, you are EXTREMELY lucky! And I am extremely skeptical.

The illustration clearly indicates a BEHIND the shoulder heart/lung shot (look at it again). This is pretty typical shot placement for most hunters and virtually REQUIRED shot placement for
bow hunters and careful handgun hunters. Again, I stand by my statement. A shot into the heart lung area will usually NOT drop a deer in it's tracks...

BTW, don't you get tired of losing all that shoulder meat every year? I'm not flaming, I'm sincerely asking... A major caliber through both front shoulders will usually bring them down quick, but you sure lose a lot of meat that way...

I have no axe to grind here, guys, other than I don't want less experienced hunters to get the impression they did something wrong if they make a good heart/lung shot and the deer runs a bit before expiring. These newer guys should be told to mark carefully the spot where the deer is BEFORE they shoot, and expect to have to trail it a bit more often than not.

For the record, the last six deer I killed ALL dropped in their tracks. They were shot from an elevated blind at distances from 90 to 125 yards, with a scoped 30-06. And all were shot in the high neck region or behind the ear (CNS). I don't consider this real hunting however - I was just SHOOTING deer to kill my required quota of does and spikes on the lease I hunt, and to get sausage meat. When I HUNT, it's with a handgun. :>)

I'll quit stirring the pot now. I've already posted more that I usually do in a year! :>) The experienced hunters know the ins and outs anyway. I just worry about the new guys.

Take care and best of luck to both of you this season.

BKD

ButchC
07-22-2002, 08:16
We didn't worry about the loss of meat. With the long season, high limits, and over abundance of deer in SC, the freezer fills up fast. We mainly killed deer to keep them out of our soybean fields. Not hunting, just economics.

Weezer
08-02-2002, 10:34
Originally posted by IPSC-1 OK, I'm an avid deer hunter and I respect these animals immensely. I grew up hunting deer in Northern Maine (where they are known for being large and very resilient.)

Im not trying to cause trouble, but if you "respect" the deer so much, why are you shooting high powered rifles at it? I hunt also, but it cracks me up when I hear hunters talking about how they respect the animals they shoot. I do always try to make a quick, clean kill though. Anyways.

;Q

IPSC-1
08-02-2002, 11:44
Out of respect for the animal, I use the correct caliber/bullet type to ensure a clean kill. Apparently I didn't make myself clear in earlier posts.

Weezer
08-02-2002, 13:35
I know what youre saying, and I agree with you 100%. It just sounds funny.:cool:

93GT
08-05-2002, 15:08
Get upset at me if you would like but i would like to share experiences that will give you more info. to decide from. i am not lying because people who make up stories to sound cool on an anonymous website or to prove a point without knowledge are sad and mislead others. i have cleanly killed the only two deer i have shot with a 10/22 with one shot each. i don't hunt that way but in my younger absolutley dumber days i shot a 120-150 lb. deer at about fifty yards with a .22lr into the heart. the deer went no more than 10 yards before dropping. the other was in the head and it died where it stood. in ohio shotguns are the only long gun allowed during gun season (i had no muzzleloaders) and i have wounded and uncleanly killed four deer with a 12 gauge 3" slug and cleanly killed two. i can put 5 out of 5 rounds into a deers vitals at 200 yards with an ar-15 from the standing pos. where as i gut shot a deer at 80 with the 12 gauge and never recovered it and lung shots caused running anywhere from 25 to 200 yards from impact. my point is that shooting deer with a .22 lr is absolutley irresponsible and i regret doing it, but placing well aimed shot from a .223 is hunting if you can shoot it accurately. if slugs aren't violating the deer's rights then a .223 shouldn't be.

Gunnut 45/454
08-09-2002, 09:58
BKD in Texas
I disagree with you here on it having to be a CNS shot to drop a deer. Shot my Mulely doe just behind the shoulder took out the upper portion of the lungs only -she drop as if struck by lightening didn't even twitch. I don't consider the .223 a big game cartridge- sure it will kill deer so will a.22LR . It's a question of ethics! As a "HUNTER" not a killer of Animals it's your responsibility to end the deers life as quickly and humanly as possible-period! I'm also looking at where most of these posters are from that are shooting deer with the .223 and I'm pretty sure that caliber is not legal to shoot deer with!! ;g

PS I've also seen deer shot with slugs out of a 12GA that left a hole you could put your arm through and that deer ran 400 yards or better through thick brush before it died. It was hit just left of the spine from above. The wound channel went straight down through the chest no-major organs hit-just a big nasty hole!! I think it died from shock becuase there was very little blood trail. This was in VA and if we hadn't of had tracking dogs I don'tthink we would of ever found the deer.

ithaca_deerslayer
08-09-2002, 13:28
I fail to see why the .223 on deer is such a hotly debated and emotional topic.

Fact. It is a bit of under-gun for deer hunting.
Fact. It still can be an effective gun for deer hunting.

Nothing magical happens when we down size from a .30-06 to a .243 to a .223. It is just a continuum of power. The .223 is just a bit on the light side, that doesn't mean it won't work. Personally, I think a 165 grain soft point .30-06 is the perfect round for deer. If we could hypothetically shoot a thousand deer with each type of round available, and with similar accuracy, we are going to see a certain percentage of drop on the spots, and a certain percentage of run and drops, and a certain percentage of run off and not drops until the next day. I think the .30-06 will have a higher percentage of drop on the spots than a .223, but that does not mean the .223 will not be effective.

Also, don't forget to factor in that a calm and relaxed deer is much more likely to drop on the spot than one that is all hyped up on adrenaline. 19 heart/lung shots from a tree stand on relaxed and unknowing deer might well result in a 19 drop on the spots. 19 heart/lung shots at hyped up deer, however, will more likely result in half of them being run and drops.

My 2 cents :)

ithaca_deerslayer
08-09-2002, 14:08
Originally posted by Gunnut 45/454
I'm also looking at where most of these posters are from that are shooting deer with the .223 and I'm pretty sure that caliber is not legal to shoot deer with!! ;g


.223 is legal in NY. AR-15 is legal, too, as long as you only have a 5-shot magazine.

Not my choice for deer hunting, but it is legal. Also ethical, if you know what you are doing :)