New S&W AR in 5.54x39 (Russian AK74) take a look... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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1999Cobra
03-14-2008, 13:52
I am no longer accepting orders for these - thanks to those that ordered...

THE UPPERS COME WITH ONE 30 ROUND MAG -

S&W is about to come out with this in their MP line - This is a Russian AK74 cartridge anyone ever fire this? How is it? I understand Arsenal makes an AK in this caliber? Looks really interesting supposed to have great wounding capacity...

5.45 X 39mm, 30 Rd. Capacity, Semi-Auto, 16” Barrel Length, 1 in 8” twist, M4 Post Front Sight, 35” Overall Length Extended, 32” Overall Length Collapsed, 6-Position Collapsible Stock, 6.5 Lbs., Barrel Material: 4140 Steel, Receiver Material: 7075 T6 Aluminum, Hard Coat Black Anodized Finish


http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z136/roadglider1/77581111.jpg
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z136/roadglider1/talo545ht6.jpg

philly b
03-14-2008, 16:25
ive looked into that, and i believe the 5.56 nato is a better round in basically every respect. i do not know why anyone would get this

9 Micky Mouse
03-14-2008, 16:35
I would not buy this I would save the money and get a AK74 5.45mm is cheap
right now.

Blitzer
03-14-2008, 16:50
"Cheap ammo for how long?" is the question. :dunno:

philly b
03-14-2008, 16:56
on second thought, i guess this would make sense if you want cheaper ammo

1999Cobra
03-14-2008, 17:58
ive looked into that, and i believe the 5.56 nato is a better round in basically every respect. i do not know why anyone would get this

There must be a reason the Russians adopted this round I'm no expert but it must have some redeemable value as a tactical weapon.

Also, I'm sure S&W wouldn't be pouring money into a product that they don't believe in, or don't believe has an inherent use for the LE market and civilian market as well.

In closing, if it's not for you, then it's not for you, but you shouldn't make a generalized statement such as "I don't know why people would buy this" it's simply not a cool thing to do. Just because you aren't interested it doesn't make it wrong for others...

I have an old saying it goes like this - "There's an *ss for every seat"

MrMurphy
03-14-2008, 18:04
The 5.45 is very accurate, and in the round (and various newer versions of it) the Russians adopted, quite lethal.

philly b
03-14-2008, 20:56
ya, im not an expert on this by any means but i just remembered hearing that from several people the the 5.56 was a far superior cartredge as i was looking into getting an ar-15 or an ak74 (i went with the ar). i realize it was kindof wrong for me to say "idk why anyone would get this" especially with how cheap the ammo is. also, the 5.54 could have some redeeming qualities i wasnt told about.

in short, sorry if i was being ignant and sorry for hijacking the thread.

uzimon
03-14-2008, 21:02
The 5.45 is very accurate, and in the round (and various newer versions of it) the Russians adopted, quite lethal.

the afghanis called it the poison bullet, iirc.
had a air gap which caused it to tumble nicely in soft targets

Ron3
03-14-2008, 21:24
Heck I still can't trust ar's in 5.56.

Lets see how this rifle eats the surplus steel-cased corrosive Russian/Bulgarian 5.45 :whistling:

What I'd really like to see are some US ammo companies to be making 5.45, but I don't think this will happen for awhile.

Kudos to S&W though for making this rifle though, I hope it sells for them.

Ron3

MrMurphy
03-15-2008, 02:27
The 5.45, in it's initial issue version doesn't penetrate cover as well as the 5.56 (which doesn't penetrate cover well either), later bullets issued (they have half a dozen, and issue the appropriate one for what you're doing unlike our 1-bullet-for-everything mentality) have more penetration, better expansion, or whatever.

It's not a perfect round (the Chinese 5.8mm supposedly outperforms both 5.45 and 5.56, it was designed to) but it's a good round.

slumpmaster
03-15-2008, 06:55
Maybe they are looking to sell it overseas, to goverments that want an AR platform, but have stockpiles of 5.45.

Who better to test your product than sport shooters? A win-win for S&W. They get to sell more products, and people pay to test a weapon/ammo system for them.

Just thinking out loud, so to speak.

m4arc
03-15-2008, 07:02
I love the 5.45 round!

1999Cobra
03-16-2008, 08:24
I have a RRA entry tac in .223/5.56, I have a 6.8 upper for it and I will be adding this 5.54 upper ASAP...

Hey, "WHY NOT" :tempted::dancing:

grendelbane
03-16-2008, 14:45
Interesting that S&W would offer some thing like this. The big advantage that the 5.45 currently has is it is so cheap. This situation may not last long.

I bought a Wasr-2 because the ammunition was so cheap! It works just fine, and is a delight to shoot. It is a good thing that ammunition is so cheap, because I have never seen dies or bullets or boxer primed cases offered.

I do wonder what kind of magazine that they intend to use. From what I understand, good AR-15 mags for the 5.45x39mm are few and far between. There is an alread developed market for the mags, since several 5.45 uppers have already been sold.

Norske
03-16-2008, 16:38
I remember seeing an interview with Mikhail Kalashnikov.

He was asked "what was up with the 5.54?"

He said that at the time his recommendation was to update the existing 7.62x39mm round rather than introduce a new cartridge.

He said he was ORDERED to do the 5.45 "because the Americans did".

vanilla_gorilla
03-16-2008, 17:41
It is my understanding that the 5.45x39 was developed because of the perceived need for a .22 caliber round after NATO (was forced by the US) went to the 5.56.

The 7.62x39 was the parent cartridge for several others, including the 5.45 and 9x39. None of the currently-available-in-US bullets approach the M193 5.56 capabilities, since fragmentation doesn't seem to be on the list of desires for 5.45.

As far as the reason for the release of a 5.45 upper, ammo prices should make that evident. Surplus 5.45 ammo is running around half the price of 5.56, right now.

MrMurphy
03-16-2008, 18:09
Yeah, Mikhail did not wish to change calibers. The Russian special forces units didn't either, they kept 7.62 AKs for a considerable amount of time, though with the ammo variety available I believe they eventually went to the AK74.

Considering how accurate and how lethal the 5.45 is, I don't think the Russian Army had a problem with the switch. They've fought two wars in Chechnya with it, and Afghanistan and it did what they wanted it to.

1999Cobra
03-17-2008, 12:05
Anyone that wants an upper or rifle I need to make the back orders as they go by first come first serve - so let me know ...

I will email pricing ...

novaDAK
03-17-2008, 15:52
The one thing that keeps me away from 5.45 is the fact there are no domestic producers of ammo. At least the "big three" make 7.62x39, so if any incident (foreign or domestic) stops the importation of ammo the US, we will pay out the ass for the domestic soviet ammo, but at least the guns will be fed :)

igotabigstick
03-17-2008, 16:37
whats the price and estimated wait time?

1999Cobra
03-17-2008, 16:50
whats the price and estimated wait time?

email please - I don't think Eric wants pricing and commerce conducted here in this forum... So email for pricing...

banger
03-17-2008, 17:25
My first thought is great! Particularly if I can buy just an upper.

BUT, as noted above, most 5.45 imported is corrosive.

My concern would be all of those "Nook and Crannies" which are already difficult to clean. Gas tube, bolt carrier, exhaust into trigger group, Bolt head, etc..

Time will tell.

1999Cobra
03-19-2008, 06:22
I guess if the ammo is corrosive and no one wants to use it - then what difference is there (as the money saved for ammo) is the driving force to buy then why buy ...yes/no...? Kind of a catch 22...:dunno:

Is their any commercial ammo out there for sale non corrosive??? I'm not sure about this anymore either - I think more research is in order...

I'm not sure why S&W would invest in this if this with such an ammo SNAFU in place...???:dunno:

Yellowfin
03-19-2008, 10:43
I was thinking about stocking up on 5.45 since the price is so nice, now there is a reason to do so. Very good! As for the corrosivity, I guess some proper care is all that's needed. I grew up cleaning after every range session no exceptions, so this is nothing new to my routine.

1999Cobra
03-20-2008, 09:10
I just got a tip from another on another forum about using Windex in the breach and barrel after shooting corrosive ammo - Poster says that ammonia in the Windex will neutralize corrosive salts of ammo

- anyone have a comment on this???:dunno:

OhioLibertarian
03-20-2008, 10:31
1999 cobra - yes thats what you do. little windex, patches, light oil

TACHop&Pop
03-20-2008, 23:25
I shudder to think what that dirty soviet ammo would do to a AR gas impingement system. I think the power of the round itself is fine (basically equivalent to a 5.56),but that surplus ammo shoots very dirty. It's a great round to use in an AK but an AR is whole different story. I also like the idea but just don't think alot of thought went into developing it correctly. S&W makes fine weapons I love their M&P 15 its my goto gun for the moment but they really need to make this a gas piston type AR for it to be reliable.

APD
03-20-2008, 23:37
ive looked into that, and i believe the 5.56 nato is a better round in basically every respect. i do not know why anyone would get this

As you will see also above....CHEAP AMMO.
I like cheap ammo too but I have a 7.62x39.

1999Cobra
03-21-2008, 05:38
Well I ordered one for myself and another fella off another site they will be here in May. I'm more than curious about this round and will give it a go ... anyone else that wants one email me (EMAIL ONLY PLEASE) - thx:cool:

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z136/roadglider1/talo545ht6.jpg

Betty_Crocker
03-21-2008, 07:05
The price is right for ammo at something like $ 125/1000 if you are willing to strip it down and clean it afterwards. Relatively whimpy round, but it'll go bang and lead will fly out the end if that's the goal.

Are they selling specific magazines for it?

WILS0N
03-21-2008, 16:28
My first thought is great! Particularly if I can buy just an upper.

BUT, as noted above, most 5.45 imported is corrosive.

My concern would be all of those "Nook and Crannies" which are already difficult to clean. Gas tube, bolt carrier, exhaust into trigger group, Bolt head, etc..

Same here (I'm aware of the ammonia trick).

It's still an interesting idea.....

1999Cobra
03-21-2008, 16:48
The price is right for ammo at something like $ 125/1000 if you are willing to strip it down and clean it afterwards. Relatively whimpy round, but it'll go bang and lead will fly out the end if that's the goal.

Are they selling specific magazines for it?

I beg to differ - please read this ...

http://www.russianwarrior.com/STMMain.htm?1979_545cartridge.htm&1


"The result was a small caliber bullet of very high velocity. The bullet also has good sectional density and a fairly flat trajectory. Despite being lighter in weight than its predecessor, the 5.45mm cartridge retained the same lethality as the older round. It can penetrate a 5mm steel sheet at 350 meters, not bad for a 53 grain bullet."

CJMello
03-21-2008, 18:44
I have had a 15T, .223 for about a year now on T&E and they just don't seem to want it back anytime soon.

grendelbane
03-21-2008, 19:00
Poster says that ammonia in the Windex will neutralize corrosive salts of ammo

This is not correct. Windex is mostly water, which is why it will remove the salt left by corrosive priming, however, simple tap water does the same thing. Single malt scotch would also work, but water is much cheaper.

Hot, soapy water was the preferred bore cleaner for centuries. Why it has fallen out of favor I do not understand. Nor do I understand why so many people insist on using Windex. Water is cheaper, and just as effective.

Greywolf
03-22-2008, 18:32
Looks like all the important areas are Chromed - read the description - barrel bore, gas key, bolt carrier, and chamber. That is a GOOD thing!

My only questions regard getting it without the front sight post (I like flip-ups and optics) and also what magazines are used for it. Other than that, sign me up!

(Sitting on 11,000 rounds of 5.45x39)

sigpro357
03-22-2008, 22:13
I've never heard of any 5.45 that was brass cased. I really never liked shooting steel cased ammunition through my AR or any of my American firearms. Steel case is okay for my AK's, SKS's, Makarov's etc. Have you ever looked at the extractor on an AK compared to to and AR-15. I just can't bring myself to do it. I think the 5.45 idea is cool. But where is the ammunition????

Greywolf
03-23-2008, 05:54
I've never heard of any 5.45 that was brass cased. I really never liked shooting steel cased ammunition through my AR or any of my American firearms. Steel case is okay for my AK's, SKS's, Makarov's etc. Have you ever looked at the extractor on an AK compared to to and AR-15. I just can't bring myself to do it. I think the 5.45 idea is cool. But where is the ammunition????

If you keep your AR clean (regardless of whether you shoot steel case 5.56 or corrosive 5.45x39) then you are talking, maybe every 4000-8000 rounds having to replace a $10 part. I'll take that and the ammo cost savings any day.

1999Cobra
03-23-2008, 06:42
I've never heard of any 5.45 that was brass cased. I really never liked shooting steel cased ammunition through my AR or any of my American firearms. Steel case is okay for my AK's, SKS's, Makarov's etc. Have you ever looked at the extractor on an AK compared to to and AR-15. I just can't bring myself to do it. I think the 5.45 idea is cool. But where is the ammunition????

Sir, do you think S&W would manufacture and sell a firearm that will not withstand the rigors of steel casing...? When they know (like we do) that most the ammo available is steel cased...? I don't know - do you think??? :dunno:

Blitzer
03-23-2008, 07:32
Maybe they are looking to sell it overseas, to goverments that want an AR platform, but have stockpiles of 5.45.

Who better to test your product than sport shooters? A win-win for S&W. They get to sell more products, and people pay to test a weapon/ammo system for them.

Just thinking out loud, so to speak.

How much are AK74s on the open market vs a S&W AR in the same caliber?

Probably cheaper to use the AK74. :dunno:

1999Cobra
03-23-2008, 08:30
How much are AK74s on the open market vs a S&W AR in the same caliber?

Probably cheaper to use the AK74. :dunno:

(Century Arms has them if you want to buy anything from them good luck) Arsenal had a product and that appears to be DISCONTINUED and it retailed for North of $1000 -

Your missing the point here, the whole idea is to slap the upper onto an existing lower - not BUY a WHOLE NEW PLATFORM... But even if you could find an AK74 they would be cheesy stamped receivers...

Betty_Crocker
03-23-2008, 09:12
I've never heard of any 5.45 that was brass cased. I really never liked shooting steel cased ammunition through my AR or any of my American firearms. Steel case is okay for my AK's, SKS's, Makarov's etc. Have you ever looked at the extractor on an AK compared to to and AR-15. I just can't bring myself to do it. I think the 5.45 idea is cool. But where is the ammunition????

AR extractors will stand up to the soft steel used in ammunition just fine. It would be nice to be able to rattle off a thousand rounds again for just $ 120 like we used to with wolf 223 before ammo prices went crazy

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bulgarian__WASP__5.45x39_FMJ.html

Alexander Arms couldn't give their 5.45 uppers away, but that was back when everything BUT 5.45 was cheap!

Greywolf
03-23-2008, 09:30
I like to train for "contingencies" with full-power ammunition, not .22 LR (like I have been lately with my AR due to ammo costs).

Having a rifle that, other than the caliber, is EXACTLY like what I'd be using during one of those "contingencies", and having it be full-power vs. 22LR, is exactly what the Dr. ordered. Plus, I like the 5.45x39 caliber, as does my wife. Our AK-74 is ok, but ergonomically it just isn't the cat's meow. I like having options for handrails, optics, flipup sights, VFGs, collapsible stocks, and host of other options, not to mention drop free mags and bolt-hold open on last shot.

1999Cobra
03-23-2008, 11:37
I just found this at one of my vendors - $229 for 2160 rounds, but most importantly LOOK - They state it is Non Corrosive - I can get these for anyone that orders an upper or full rifle, keep in mind that is the price for ammo only - then there would be shipping costs (actual shipping only) no inflated charges. I have a lot of this available ...

(Please note: I don't like to get involved with ammo sales, so I will only do this for customers of sales for the uppers and full rifles, don't ask if your not buying an upper or rifle- sorry)

That's $114.50 for 1080 rounds - If you guys want to split boxes that's fine by me - but work it out amongst yourselves ...


BULGARIAN 5.45X39 FMJ 2160 RD. CASE

CALIBER 5.45X39
BULLET TYPE FMJ
BULLET WEIGHT 50
RELOADABLE Y/N NO

ROUNDS PER BOX 1080 PER SEALED TIN, 2 TINS PER CASE
BOXES PER CASE 2 SEALED TINS OF 1080 ROUNDS
CASE WEIGHT 69 LBS.
OTHER FEATURES: 2160 ROUNDS PER SEALED WOODEN CASE
NON-CORROSIVE,
NON-RELOADABLE, BERDAN PRIMED
PACKED 30 ROUNDS PER BOX, 36 BOXES PER
SEALED TIN

Greywolf
03-23-2008, 15:18
Actually, it IS corrosive - all Bulgarian ammo of this type is corrosive. They mislabeled and advertised it as non-corrosive. Ask me how I know? :whistling:

However, that said, the Bulgarian is VERY nice ammo, with the right load of powder, the correct bullet with airpocket, and of all the surplus out there it is the most consistent and accurate.

But it IS corrosive, just so you all know.



I just found this at one of my vendors - $229 for 2160 rounds, but most importantly LOOK - They state it is Non Corrosive - I can get these for anyone that orders an upper or full rifle, keep in mind that is the price for ammo only - then there would be shipping costs (actual shipping only) no inflated charges. I have a lot of this available ...

(Please note: I don't like to get involved with ammo sales, so I will only do this for customers of sales for the uppers and full rifles, don't ask if your not buying an upper or rifle- sorry)

That's $114.50 for 1080 rounds - If you guys want to split boxes that's fine by me - but work it out amongst yourselves ...


BULGARIAN 5.45X39 FMJ 2160 RD. CASE

CALIBER 5.45X39
BULLET TYPE FMJ
BULLET WEIGHT 50
RELOADABLE Y/N NO

ROUNDS PER BOX 1080 PER SEALED TIN, 2 TINS PER CASE
BOXES PER CASE 2 SEALED TINS OF 1080 ROUNDS
CASE WEIGHT 69 LBS.
OTHER FEATURES: 2160 ROUNDS PER SEALED WOODEN CASE
NON-CORROSIVE,
NON-RELOADABLE, BERDAN PRIMED
PACKED 30 ROUNDS PER BOX, 36 BOXES PER
SEALED TIN

1999Cobra
03-23-2008, 16:04
I kind of thought that - and was going to check with them tomorrow.

The price is right though - huh...? Is this a fairly decent load for this caliber ? - ((((I have no clue about the 5.45x39))))

Greywolf
03-23-2008, 16:16
I kind of thought that and was going to check with them tomorrow.

The price is right though - huh...? Is this a fairly decent load for this caliber ? - ((((I have no clue about the 5.45x39))))

Yes - the Bulgarian stuff was loaded up to their (and the WARSAW Pact) military specifications and shoots well, accurate, and hits very hard in soft tissue.

bsf
03-24-2008, 08:16
AFAIK, all the recently available 5.45x39 mil-surp, Russian and Bulgarian, is top notch. Reviews seem to indicate that the Bulgarian holds a slight edge in velocity consistency (SD). I bought all Bulgarian because it is newer production. The only non-corrosive 5.45 I am aware of is Wolf, Golden Tiger, and Barnaul; all steel case also. I would have little concern over using corrosive ammo in a direct impingement AR. Considering .223/5.56 ammo prices, 5.45x39 would work nicely for high volume shooting scenarios. Water and dish soap is my cleaner of choice; lots of it. Hell, I would have little problem just blasting everything with a garden hose and drying with compressed air. These are ARís we are talking about, not 50Ē plasma wide screen tvís. Just flush the salts away and you can proceed to normal cleaning and lubrication.

Stinkyrat
03-24-2008, 10:28
Heck I still can't trust ar's in 5.56.

Lets see how this rifle eats the surplus steel-cased corrosive Russian/Bulgarian 5.45 :whistling:

What I'd really like to see are some US ammo companies to be making 5.45, but I don't think this will happen for awhile.

Ron3

Maybe that is the benefit that will come from this, people always talked about the AK-74 and how it will be worthless as soon as the ammo stops being imported. Well maybe with the 5.45 AR comming out it will pick up in popularity and US manufacturers will start making the stuff?

Until then I will stick with my 7n6 stuff, cant beat the prices right now!

Stinkyrat

Luckystrike45ac
03-24-2008, 10:30
If i may ask will this use standard AR magazines or will they need to be modified for the 5.45x39 round?

Thanks

Punkkin
03-24-2008, 10:39
If i may ask will this use standard AR magazines or will they need to be modified for the 5.45x39 round?

Thanks

I'd like to know that answer too.

rjb_213
03-24-2008, 10:51
I'd like to know that answer too.

Word is that it uses a standard AR mag... waiting for reviews...

1999Cobra
03-24-2008, 11:30
UPDATE - UPDATE - UPDATE -

Just got off the phone with the wholesaler... here's the skinny -

This is a special edition/project between S&W and the Company called TALO distribution located in MA.

These are a one shot run special order when they are sold out they will be history. (Of course that doesn't mean S&W wouldn't take up manufacture if sales were very brisk) but that's not in the future plans at this moment.

Because these are special editions there are no configurations offered except for what you see.

As for the magazines the salesman said there will be plenty of magazines available. However, your standard .223 mag will not work unless you change out the followers. The mags will be your basic .223 mag with special 5.45x39 follower installed.

Betty_Crocker
03-24-2008, 13:12
The corrosive bulgarian wasp ammo comes in 1080 round cans and costs around $ 120. I bet that's what they are selling you. I've never seen a different non corrosive bulgarian round, however I am certainly no expert on bulgarian 5.45 ammo. I'll post some pictures of the cans and ammo tomorrow and you can see if it's what they are talking to you about.

Wasp has the "dreaded" (or ridiculously over hyped ;) ) little air pocket at the tip of the bullet. Wolf does not. Wolf is about $ 150/1000.

1999Cobra
03-24-2008, 17:04
The corrosive bulgarian wasp ammo comes in 1080 round cans and costs around $ 120. I bet that's what they are selling you. I've never seen a different non corrosive bulgarian round, however I am certainly no expert on bulgarian 5.45 ammo. I'll post some pictures of the cans and ammo tomorrow and you can see if it's what they are talking to you about.

Wasp has the "dreaded" (or ridiculously over hyped ;) ) little air pocket at the tip of the bullet. Wolf does not. Wolf is about $ 150/1000.

Yeah these idiots (distributors) listed it as non corrosive when it is corrosive and yes it's the stuff in the green tins no need for a picture thanks though :supergrin:

b8es_2
03-24-2008, 17:25
OMG!! No domestic ammo and the corrosion!!! And the 5.45 doesnt fragment, it only tumbles!! How am I supposed to kill all those zombies with these odds stacked against me?!

Even with all the chicken littles and negative nancys, I bet these sell really well. Props to my homies at S&W for trying this out when none of the other AR makers would.

1999Cobra
03-24-2008, 21:38
OMG!! No domestic ammo and the corrosion!!! And the 5.45 doesnt fragment, it only tumbles!! How am I supposed to kill all those zombies with these odds stacked against me?!

Even with all the chicken littles and negative nancys, I bet these sell really well. Props to my homies at S&W for trying this out when none of the other AR makers would.

(edited)

Well I bought one, and I bought a subscription to get home delivery of Windex cause I will need plenty of that after firing 2160 rounds or maybe 4320 - or even 6480- lol...:rofl::tongueout:

philly b
03-24-2008, 23:12
1999 cobra, are you a salesman for s&w or something?

sigcalcatrant
03-25-2008, 05:07
Heck I still can't trust ar's in 5.56.

Why not? Is it the round or the rifle?









/

1999Cobra
03-25-2008, 06:29
1999 cobra, are you a salesman for s&w or something?
(edited)

Sir, please retract your sarcastic remark - thanks...

1999Cobra
03-26-2008, 06:30
No longer accepting orders for these - thanks to those that ordered I will contact you when they come in ...

Sorry to anyone that didn't get in on this, hopefully you can find another way to secure one of these :cool:

BTW - ALL UPPERS SHIP WITH ONE 30 ROUND MAGAZINE ...and more can be purchased.

Prometheus77
03-31-2008, 10:57
(Century Arms has them if you want to buy anything from them good luck) Arsenal had a product and that appears to be DISCONTINUED and it retailed for North of $1000 -

Your missing the point here, the whole idea is to slap the upper onto an existing lower - not BUY a WHOLE NEW PLATFORM... But even if you could find an AK74 they would be cheesy stamped receivers...

Nothing cheesey about a stamped AK74... My SAR2's will likely be working long after my AR's need many replacement parts, lol.

I'm excited about the uppers, (I just pre-ordered one from AIM today) but lets not denegrate a weapon whose only flaw is cosmetics. looks like 2-3 weeks for delivery, WOOT!

On a side note the russian surplus is corrosive and the late 80's early 90's stuff is 'mildly' corrosive if one could call it that. part of the confusion with it is that the powder used is not corrosive while the primers are corrosive. I believe thats one of the reasons why many sellers don't label it as corrosive. I think anyway :dunno:

I can say i'm looking forwrd to being able to shoot my AR's again with the same type of guiltless shooting as back when I was buying Izzy surplus .223 for 9.5 cents a round delivered.

For those who don't have a AK yet I'd reccomend one in 5.45x39 to go along with your new 5.45 upper. There are still plenty of great shooting (if cosmetically blemished) AK74's on the market for $450-550. Why not have both?

Ron3
04-11-2008, 19:16
Why not? Is it the round or the rifle?/

The rifle.

sigcalcatrant
04-11-2008, 20:00
The rifle.What's wrong with the rifle?

1999Cobra
04-11-2008, 21:23
What's wrong with the rifle?

Nothing - be careful who you listen to on some of these forums

sigcalcatrant
04-11-2008, 21:35
Nothing - be careful who you listen to on some of these forums there are a lot of Blow-Hards running loose ... :rofl:But it's so much fun to 'stir the pot'.

Famas1
04-12-2008, 19:05
Maybe they are looking to sell it overseas, to goverments that want an AR platform, but have stockpiles of 5.45.

There might be some of that.

I don't believe it is that expensive from S&W R&D to make that weapon from an already tested design, so why not make it.

And what about YOU buying that weapon, and in 20 years from now, when you decide to sell it, you find out only 1000 were made, because nobody liked the 5.45.
How much would you think that gun would be worth? Just for that, I think it might be worth it.

Greywolf
04-12-2008, 20:20
I had originally been waiting on some other smiths to do this. Then when they kept having issues (small shops, no capital, etc.) I started trying to find an AA upper (the Genghis) but had no luck. Then heard a rumor AA was going to make more, but that turned out to be false. Then I bought a Krink barrel and hoped that another smith would work out the bugs - I think he has, but it is a custom job and will cost close to $800. When this S&W was announced I was all over it like stink on . . . well, you know.

Hopefully it turns out well and gives me a full-power upper with cheap ammo (I have 11,000 rounds of the stuff).

Ron3
04-12-2008, 22:45
But it's so much fun to 'stir the pot'.

They are not reliable enough for me to trust my life to them. There are plenty of threads about all the pros and cons of Ar's.

Ron3

Greywolf
04-13-2008, 05:08
They are not reliable enough for me to trust my life to them. There are plenty of threads about all the pros and cons of Ar's.

Ron3

Apparently over 70 countries do think enough of them to trust their armed forces live's on. They apparently have done enough research, had enough field experience, and have trained their forces in how to care for their rifles enough to ensure reliable and accurate service.

I'd stake my life on an AR/M16/M4 any day over an AK. It is what I carried in the service and it never let me down. Plus it is faster, more accurate, and more ergonomic than an AK.

1999Cobra
04-13-2008, 05:42
edited

sigcalcatrant
04-13-2008, 09:29
They are not reliable enough for me to trust my life to them. There are plenty of threads about all the pros and cons of Ar's.

Ron3That's crazy talk. A properly maintained AR from a reputable manufacturer with quality ammunition is one of the most reliable weapons ever made.

Ron3
04-15-2008, 21:10
:rofl::tongueout::rofl: another self proclaimed expert that knows nothing about ballistic's obviously ...:dunno:

I didn't say anything about ballistics. I don't have a problem with 5.56 I have a problem with the rifle itself.

Ron3

panzer1
04-15-2008, 23:54
ive looked into that, and i believe the 5.56 nato is a better round in basically every respect. i do not know why anyone would get thisWhy do you think that the 5.56 nato round is "A better round in basically every respect"? I would like to know your opinion as to why?
p.s.Note:In Afghanistan,1979-89 the soviets killed a lot of Mujahideen with the 5.45x39(and not 5-7 shot kills) but in Iraq the 5.56 dose not do as good.Some of our guys say they need to hit enemy 5-7 times before the scumbag go's down for good.

1999Cobra
04-16-2008, 05:10
FOLKS - this thread was an intro to a new rifle offering - and I took the opportunity to let people know.

Some orders were made and the thread was supposed to be closed. Please lets not turn this into a bashing argument back and forth about the virtues of the 5.56 or 5.45 round - simply because that's not what this forum is about and it's against the rules.

I have already had to ask the mods to delete some posts ... lets just put a stop to it here - please ...

Greywolf
04-16-2008, 08:46
FOLKS - this thread was an intro to a new rifle offering - and I took the opportunity to let people know.

Some orders were made and the thread was supposed to be closed. Please lets not turn this into a bashing argument back and forth about the virtues of the 5.56 or 5.45 round - simply because that's not what this forum is about and it's against the rules.

I have already had to ask the mods to delete some posts ... lets just put a stop to it here - please ...

+1 billion -

Greywolf
05-13-2008, 12:17
Any status updates on when we can start to expect shipment of these uppers?

1999Cobra
05-13-2008, 12:38
Any status updates on when we can start to expect shipment of these uppers?

Not yet - sorry

johnd
05-14-2008, 10:59
there is no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that if you are going to whack someone then the bigger the bullet, the better.
The Russians followed us in the understanding that todays conflicts are more likely to be in and around the houses, that todays shooters dont have time to aim, that ammo is a heavy weight and that laying down fire is probably whats going to happen instead of aiming, firing and hitting the target.
Thus, the need to be able to carry more ammo for the same weight load was the design criteria.
The ammo mentioned here, the air gap nose rounds arent available in the US market ( unless by accident or wrong markings).
In Afghanistan, the Russians feared the Lee Enfield so much that they would execute men in a village where they found just an empty 303 cartridge case ...bigger is better.
Todays M16/AR15 is just a shadow of what it used to be as the USAF caused its twist rate to be tightened up considerably. In the early versions the twist rate was 1:14 and 1:12 and the round was marginally stable and, when hitting flesh, it tumbled immediately. Once the twist rate was made tighter, it became a very accurate round that punches tiny tiny holes in people allowing them to keep going after being hit.
Interestingly, it has been proven over and over and over again that American made 762x39 ammo is very accurate when in an AK......go figure.

1999Cobra
05-14-2008, 11:40
Mr. John - why exactly are you posting this in a closed semi-sales thread - are you trying to cause discomfort amongst those that have purchased these just wondering...?:dunno::upeyes:

Greywolf
05-14-2008, 11:48
there is no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, that if you are going to whack someone then the bigger the bullet, the better.
The Russians followed us in the understanding that todays conflicts are more likely to be in and around the houses, that todays shooters dont have time to aim, that ammo is a heavy weight and that laying down fire is probably whats going to happen instead of aiming, firing and hitting the target.
Thus, the need to be able to carry more ammo for the same weight load was the design criteria.
The ammo mentioned here, the air gap nose rounds arent available in the US market ( unless by accident or wrong markings).
In Afghanistan, the Russians feared the Lee Enfield so much that they would execute men in a village where they found just an empty 303 cartridge case ...bigger is better.
Todays M16/AR15 is just a shadow of what it used to be as the USAF caused its twist rate to be tightened up considerably. In the early versions the twist rate was 1:14 and 1:12 and the round was marginally stable and, when hitting flesh, it tumbled immediately. Once the twist rate was made tighter, it became a very accurate round that punches tiny tiny holes in people allowing them to keep going after being hit.
Interestingly, it has been proven over and over and over again that American made 762x39 ammo is very accurate when in an AK......go figure.

If I recall correctly, all Bulgarian 7N6 surplus has the air gap:

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/5-45x39-russian-military-surplus-7n6-ps-fmj-bt,-1080-rd-sealed-tin-sale!/products_id/1399?SID

Very easy to purchase - I have over 10,000 rounds.

It is the Armor Piercing stuff you can't get over here.

kevins_garage
05-14-2008, 14:38
Any status updates on when we can start to expect shipment of these uppers?

If you go over to ar15.com, you can find out about the mag supplier (CProducts) and the delay they had with the mags. I am not sure if there has been an update on the expected timeframe, but it would appear as though the mags had to be slightly redesigned to include some ribs on the sides and will be specific for this caliber/upper.

Prometheus77
05-16-2008, 21:52
If you go over to ar15.com, you can find out about the mag supplier (CProducts) and the delay they had with the mags. I am not sure if there has been an update on the expected timeframe, but it would appear as though the mags had to be slightly redesigned to include some ribs on the sides and will be specific for this caliber/upper.

I heard from AIM there was a delay with "followers". Thats it. Nothing about ribs or anything like that.

They've been touting you can use standard AR mags with the new "blue" followers or use regular anti-tilt followers and load upto 20 rounds IIRC.

Anyway I say screw the followers and ship what the have, send the followers when they are done. I doubt the "blue followers" will be much better for 5.45x39 than the magpull 4-way anti tilts anyway.

I wants me upper!!!! :whistling:

Ron3
08-23-2008, 23:56
Well I wanted to learn how to use an AR, and I like cheap ammo.

So I bought a S&W 15R. My hypocrisy knows no bounds...

Haven't fired it yet though, just put a rear sight on it tonight.

Mags are being made my C-products. Steel with a unique follower.

Ron3

1999Cobra
08-24-2008, 05:05
There are full rifles available but no uppers yet at least from one of my suppliers anyway ...

MrMurphy
08-24-2008, 05:43
The US ARMY in arctic testing changed the specs on the M16, and the Army and Marine Corps (with adoption of the M249) changed the twist in the A2 at adoption to conform with the M249's twist rate for better long range accuracy.

1999Cobra
08-24-2008, 06:27
There won't be an Artic in about 5 years - and you better not be living in any coastal areas when the sea water rises :wow:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m249.htm