you knew it was only a matter of time [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Berretta9
03-25-2008, 19:43
With the damage they do to the range we shoot at, it was only a matter of time. The big joke going around is they cover the windows at the range so the flying public won't be horrified at how bad they shoot. Now one of them has shot his own airplane. In fairness we know a few who can shoot and a few who can outshoot us all but... well you be the judge.



CHARLOTTE, N.C. (AP) -- The pilot of a US Airways plane may have mishandled a firearm that went off in flight, piercing a hole in the cockpit wall, a federal air marshal said Tuesday.

"This is an extremely safe and reliable weapon," said Greg Alter of the Federal Air Marshal Service. "It's not going to discharge on its own, is the bottom line."

The pistol - a .40-caliber semiautomatic H&K USP - discharged shortly before noon Saturday aboard Flight 1536 from Denver to Charlotte, as the plane was at about 8,000 feet and was approaching to land. Photos obtained by The Associated Press show a small entry hole in the lower side of the cockpit wall and a small exit hole on the exterior below the cockpit window.

The AP described the photos and the bullet hole in the Airbus A319 to US Airways spokesman Phil Gee, who said "they sound authentic."

Airline officials have said the accidental discharge Saturday did not endanger the 124 passengers and five crew members on board, although air safety experts said Tuesday the shot could have caused the plane to rapidly depressurize had it hit a window at a higher altitude.

"There are two issues: would they (the crew) have enough oxygen to remain alert," said Earl Dowell, an aeronautical engineering professor at Duke University. "If the crew could no longer control the airplane, that would be a big deal. And the rapid loss of pressure might damage the structure itself."

But both Dowell and Fu-Kuo Chang, a professor of aeronautical engineering at Stanford University, said that airplane design emphasizes safety and that such a blast - even if it knocked out a window in mid-flight, isn't likely to cause the kind of damage that would lead immediately to a crash.

"If not repaired, it may cause a problem. It could get bigger. For a single bullet, it would not be a factor for the safety of the airplane," Chang said. "If it hit the window, it may be a problem for depressurization. I still don't think it would cause a crash."

Dowell pointed to a 1988 Aloha Airlines flight in Hawaii in which the roof of the jet ripped off after an explosive decompression at 24,000 feet. A flight attendant was blown out of the plane, but the passengers - many of whom were injured - remained strapped in their seats, and the pilot safely landed the aircraft.

"If they lost a window, the people near that window would have been substantially uncomfortable," Dowell said. "You probably wouldn't have crashed the airplane. But there could have been some frightened people."

The gunshot marked the first time a pilot's weapon has been fired on a plane since the flight deck officer program was created following the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Alter said. The Transportation Security Administration is investigating how the gun discharged, and Gee says the unidentified pilot has been taken off duty during the probe.

Pilots in the program undergo 50 hours of training at the federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Artesia, N.M. Alter said it appears the pilot of the US Airways flight wasn't following "proper procedures. ... We just don't know exactly what procedure wasn't being followed."

Since April 2003, about 5,000 flight deck officers - captains or first officers - have gone through the training program and received permission to carry weapons in the cockpit, said Capt. Bob Hesselbein, chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association's National Security Committee. The union represents more than 61,000 pilots at 43 airlines.

Gee declined to say how many US Airways pilots have graduated from the program and carry guns while on duty, citing security concerns.

But they all carry the same gun, the high-priced and high-quality H&K USP, which Alter said was specially selected for the program. Gun safety expert Ronald Scott, a ballistics expert who served for 25 years with the Massachusetts State Police, said the gun wouldn't discharge accidentally if dropped or jarred in some way.

"It's a top-of-the-line model," Scott said. "They're accurate and highly reliable. This is not something that you would just walk into a gun store and buy. And it's also not something that goes off by itself. ... Someone would have to squeeze the trigger."

The jet will be grounded at Charlotte-Douglas International Airport for several more days as repairs are made. The Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday it won't be involved in looking at why the gun went off but will investigate to make sure the plane is safe before it returns to service.

"We want to make sure there was no structural damage and no systems on board were damaged by the bullet," said FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said. "We want to take a look at the aircraft to make sure it's in an air-worthy condition."

---

Associated Press writer Estes Thompson in Raleigh contributed to this report.

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ciwsguy
03-26-2008, 15:32
What I don't understand is why the pilot had a round chambered. The cockpit door is closed and barricaded, so a hijacker getting into the cockpit would be a slow occurring thing, leaving sufficient time to draw the weapon & cock it.

Anybody know anything about those H&K USP pistols? Built-in safety as a 1911, or a decocker as the Walther P99 or Beretta 92?

45gunner
03-26-2008, 16:04
What I don't understand is why the pilot had a round chambered. The cockpit door is closed and barricaded, so a hijacker getting into the cockpit would be a slow occurring thing, leaving sufficient time to draw the weapon & cock it.

Anybody know anything about those H&K USP pistols? Built-in safety as a 1911, or a decocker as the Walther P99 or Beretta 92?

Most people carry a round chambered.

I'm pretty sure the H&K is a double action pistol. The only ways its going to fire is if the pilot pulled the trigger. The only quesiton I have is what was he doing playing with it.

B+Shooter
03-26-2008, 17:17
The USP is a pretty cool setup, the safety either operates cocked and locked like a 1911 or hammer down like most DA/SA pistols. They have 7 variations for how the pistol can be set up. You can put the safety on in the hammer down/hammer up position- however you choose to carry it. An AD in an airplane is about unfortunate for gun enthusiasts as the Bosnian war stories are for Hillary supporters.
:whistling:

Bladerunner747
03-26-2008, 19:39
They are required to carry a holster with a lock. The hasp goes through the trigger guard, an accident waiting to happen.
Another bean counter idea!
The more you have to handle the weapon, the more the chances of an AD are increased. The facts are not in yet.
Messing with the trigger guard by putting anything through it is a bad idea!

Berretta9
03-27-2008, 11:41
Bet it woke the other guy up from his nap and required a visit to his dry cleaners for his pants.

ciwsguy
03-27-2008, 15:19
Most people carry a round chambered.

I'm pretty sure the H&K is a double action pistol. The only ways its going to fire is if the pilot pulled the trigger. The only quesiton I have is what was he doing playing with it.

Gunner,
I don't carry, nor do I want to, but if I did with any of my autoloaders, I would not keep a round chambered unless I thought I would be in a position that I would need to pull and fire on very short notice. Police officers I can see needing to do that, but a pilot in the cockpit behind a barricaded door isn't going to need that short a reaction timeline. What I'm saying is I don't see the need for the pilot to keep a round chambered. No round in chamber = very safe.

BTW, we don't know that the pilot actually pulled the trigger or that he was playing with it.

45gunner
03-27-2008, 15:37
Gunner,
BTW, we don't know that the pilot actually pulled the trigger or that he was playing with it.

Wheter he is behind a locked door or not should not make any difference. This person still can't handle the gun.

You don't play with a loaded gun. Whether he pulled the trigger, dropped it or what ever once a loaded gun is in the holster you don't bother it unless you can unloaded it in a safe area or to fire it in self defense.

If you don't feel confident enough to control your gun with our without a bullet in the chamber maybe you should be carrying one at all. I don't think there is anthing wrong with this BTW.

Most people fire with the gun in the condition they practice with and thats with a chambered round . In a tense sitution I think a lot of people would forget the rack the gun and most people don't evern remember to take the safety off unless they practice a lot.

I bet if you take a poll about how many people carry a gun with a round chambered you may be shocked at the results.

Just for giggles lets take a poll. Heck I may be shocked.
I'm not a law enforcement guy and have not been involved any any gun
battles. I only shoot in a lot of competition. I bet most people would rather have a gun ready to fire then to rack it in.




How may GTers carry a pistol with a round chambered??

ciwsguy
03-27-2008, 17:37
You don't play with a loaded gun.

How may GTers carry a pistol with a round chambered??

Agreed - one should not play with a loaded gun. What I was getting at is that neither you nor I "know" if he was playing with it or how the discharge occurred. Though I have two Glocks (G17 & G19), I really prefer the safety features built into the 1911A1 and the M9 pistols.

Had it been me, I would prefer to carry a revolver. Safer, you know.

You may have to start a new thread on your poll. I've never started a poll thread, have you?

ciwsguy

Berretta9
03-27-2008, 19:20
Carry a Beretta. Round in chamber, safty on. Sometimes in the summer I carry a smith airweight, round in chamber.

45gunner
03-28-2008, 16:58
Agreed - one should not play with a loaded gun. What I was getting at is that neither you nor I "know" if he was playing with it or how the discharge occurred. Though I have two Glocks (G17 & G19), I really prefer the safety features built into the 1911A1 and the M9 pistols.

Had it been me, I would prefer to carry a revolver. Safer, you know.

You may have to start a new thread on your poll. I've never started a poll thread, have you?

ciwsguy

I have never started one either.

spork
03-28-2008, 17:27
I carry a G23C, 13+1 in the chamber.

ciwsguy
03-28-2008, 18:03
I carry a G23C, 13+1 in the chamber.

Keep on bring the poll results, folks! At least I know whom to stay clear of so I don't get accidental discharged shot!:supergrin:

Bladerunner747
03-28-2008, 20:13
H&K LEM trigger sucks. Glock has the best trigger, that is why all others try to imitate it.
One in the chamber. If not all you have is a bullet storage device!!!!

Berretta9
03-29-2008, 08:26
What part of San Bernadino Bladerunner ?? Lived in Covina and Fountain Valley for 9 years ??

Bladerunner747
03-29-2008, 17:12
The mountains where the air is fine.

glockguy609
04-05-2008, 16:16
I carried a G-17 with one in the chamber on and off duty for 4 years in everything from retention duty holster, shoulder holster , IWB holster and Galco gunny sack, and never had any problems.

Clyde
04-05-2008, 17:10
Semi-Auto
Mags full - Chamber loaded

Round Gun
All Cylinders loaded


:tongueout:

45gunner
04-05-2008, 17:22
Keep on bring the poll results, folks! At least I know whom to stay clear of so I don't get accidental discharged shot!:supergrin:

From the looks of it you had better stay away from everyone.

ciwsguy
04-07-2008, 19:03
From the looks of it you had better stay away from everyone.

You've got to be kidding. So far, there are what, six who carry with round in chamber that I need to stay clear of. That doesn't make much of a scientific poll.

Why don't you start a real poll for all of the 160,000 or so KY CCDW holders. I can't get over the apparent paranoia of "I gotta be able to pop the BG real fast".

Wonder if there are any regrets with that ex J-town cop or the recipient of all those .40 rounds that found the target. There is a down-side to CCDW, you know. There is also a good side - you never really know who's carrying and who isn't, so overall, crime dudes have to think about that before commission of a felony. CCDW is a good thing as long as there aren't a bunch of brandishers, as was the case of one in the Kroger parking lot.

Behind a barricaded cockpit door? Probably don't need to have a round chambered.

ciwsguy
04-07-2008, 19:12
....and never had any problems.

At least not yet. There's always a first time for everything. If you're a cop, I see the need, but had it been me and I'm not a cop, I would off-duty with a good DA revolver.

Remember that DEA agent that accidentally shot himself in the leg or foot with what he called a "Glock 40" and he said he was the only one in the room that was qualified to handle it, just before he shot himself? He wasn't playing with it, was he?

Clyde
04-07-2008, 20:21
Seatbelt before a car wreck.

Condom before :smootchie:

Chamber Loaded

It's a lifestyle choice :supergrin:

45gunner
04-07-2008, 20:54
ciwguy,

Neither of your last two replies, etc the Jtown Cop, or the DEA person shooting himself in the let, constitute an argument for not carrying with a round in the chamber.

In the case of the Jtown Cop. I shoot with the guy. It was self defense and am sure you will not get any argument from him about the matter. The DEA agent. The fact that he is alive is probably due to the fact he has reacted quickly to many situations quickly happening which required a round in the chamber like any other drug enforcement officiers will tell you.

You may be the safest person in the world carrying a gun without a loaded round but if your ever in a gunfight you may not be the person walking away from it.

glockguy609
04-07-2008, 20:56
At least not yet. There's always a first time for everything. If you're a cop, I see the need, but had it been me and I'm not a cop, I would off-duty with a good DA revolver.

Remember that DEA agent that accidentally shot himself in the leg or foot with what he called a "Glock 40" and he said he was the only one in the room that was qualified to handle it, just before he shot himself? He wasn't playing with it, was he?

No but it looked to me like he was paying more attention to trying to look cool, and his "lecture" than he was to his gun. And I would never pull the "Loaded" gun out of my holster in any class room to do a demonstration with, he's lucky he only shot himself.
The key to carrying any gun concealed is a good holster that completely covers the trigger guard which prevents anything from pulling the trigger. That being said one of the guys from my section did manage to shoot himself in the ass because he was carrying against policy behind his hip and when he was getting undressed after the shift his gun caught on his vest he grabbed at it and caught the trigger...bang...ouch! (Now I wasn't there for this event but the story was told to me by my old partner).
Carry what you're comfortable with, but never get too comfortable...

Quiet
04-07-2008, 23:01
Pilots qualified under the Flight Deck Officer Program are issued H&K USP-40 Compacts.

Watch video before blaming the pilot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqOLjEli6yY

Berretta9
04-08-2008, 07:15
I've seen that video and I agree it's a goofy way to do it, but this happened because he wasn't paying enough attention to what he was doing.

Blitzer
04-08-2008, 08:03
Gunner,
I don't carry, nor do I want to, but if I did with any of my autoloaders, I would not keep a round chambered unless I thought I would be in a position that I would need to pull and fire on very short notice. Police officers I can see needing to do that, but a pilot in the cockpit behind a barricaded door isn't going to need that short a reaction timeline. What I'm saying is I don't see the need for the pilot to keep a round chambered. No round in chamber = very safe.

BTW, we don't know that the pilot actually pulled the trigger or that he was playing with it.

I see the arm chair quarterbacks are out in force on this issue. :upeyes:

In other words you don't have an educated opinion or any experience on the subject but just like to see your opinion in print?

:steamed: :whistling:

ciwsguy
04-08-2008, 16:22
Educated opinion? Beg to differ greatly sir. What was said at the start of the thread? "It was only a matter of time". That was correct. I'm not anti-CCDW folks, nor was I bashing the ex-J-Town cop. He was right in what he did based upon what the evidence showed. What I was getting at and you guys apparently missed it, was it CAN happen to you too, no matter how careful you say you are.

From a shear scientific perspective, if there is no round in chamber, then the chances of accidental discharge of extremely low, but if round is chambered, then the chances of accidental discharge are higher. That's not rocket science. At least I managed to get some of your ires up on my RE:.:supergrin:

ciwsguy
04-08-2008, 16:37
I've seen that video and I agree it's a goofy way to do it, but this happened because he wasn't paying enough attention to what he was doing.

Beretta9,
That may be, but had there NOT been a round in the chamber, you cannot deny that it would NOT have discharged, would it not? You have to admit, there is a down side to carrying with chamber loaded and gun cocked. That's all I'm trying to say.

Berretta9
04-08-2008, 18:25
I'll give you that. Most of the people who I shoot with will tell you that untill recently I didn't carry chambered either. I'm pretty picky about which guns I will carry that way. As a pilot myself I can't understand why he was messing with it while on approach anyway. Too much other things going on to give it the attention it deserved.

45gunner
04-08-2008, 20:55
Pilots qualified under the Flight Deck Officer Program are issued H&K USP-40 Compacts.

Watch video before blaming the pilot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqOLjEli6yY

Thats very enlighting. I feel sorry for the pilots that have to put up with this.
What an over engineered nightmare. Bet this rig was designed by lawyers to be very safe.:shame:

I believe I heard in the video that the gun is required to be loaded in the manner in which it was discharged. Etc with a round chambered.

ciwsguy
04-09-2008, 14:59
ciwguy,

Neither of your last two replies constitute an argument for not carrying with a round in the chamber.
:upeyes:
DUHHH! If the DEA agent didn't have a round in the chamber, it wouldn't have discharged, would it? :rollingeyes::faint:

Who was it that first said "it's not a question of if, but when"?

I have enjoyed this forum discussion, guys.

Gunner, and all the rest of you bullet-in-chamber locked, cocked and loaded guys, no offense was intended. If I ever need to pursue a CCDW permit, I'm gonna be carrying a good DA revolver. :supergrin:

45gunner
04-09-2008, 18:30
:upeyes:
DUHHH! If the DEA agent didn't have a round in the chamber, it wouldn't have discharged, would it? :rollingeyes::faint:

Who was it that first said "it's not a question of if, but when"?

I have enjoyed this forum discussion, guys.

Gunner, and all the rest of you bullet-in-chamber locked, cocked and loaded guys, no offense was intended. If I ever need to pursue a CCDW permit, I'm gonna be carrying a good DA revolver. :supergrin:


Enjoyed it as well.

BTW the gun that went off was double action. :supergrin:

In the case of the DEA agent stupdity was the problem here not a loaded round. Another case of stupidy would be a DEA agent walking around without a round in the chamber and forgetting to chamber it before a gunfight.


No offense was taken but I think you missed the whole point of carrying a gun for self defense purposes. People want to be safe but the reason they carry a pistol with a round loaded to to have a chance in a gun fight. If everyone wants to be safe they can stay in their basement.

Singlestack Wonder
04-09-2008, 18:58
Wow..............no one was sucked out of the plane, butt first, thru the bullet hole, and there wasn't an explosive decompression!

ciwsguy
04-09-2008, 18:58
[QUOTE=45gunner;10257628]Enjoyed it as well.

BTW the gun that went off was double action. :supergrin:

QUOTE]

But it wasn't a wheelgun.:supergrin:

glockguy609
04-10-2008, 05:18
[QUOTE=45gunner;10257628]Enjoyed it as well.

BTW the gun that went off was double action. :supergrin:

QUOTE]

But it wasn't a wheelgun.:supergrin:

True,
And if one feels safer with a revolver than a semi, then that's what they should carry because safety is why we carry in the first place.

But... back in the day, before Wonder Nines ruled the world, plenty of people "accidentally" shot themselves and others with revolvers. It doesn't matter what you carry , ya got to be aware and take care.

Clyde
04-10-2008, 09:10
ciwsguy
But it wasn't a wheelgun.:supergrin:

I have seen an AD/ND with a DA Revolver - it is truly only a matter of Time and proper finger placement :whistling:

Punkkin
04-10-2008, 09:36
Gunner,
I don't carry, nor do I want to, but if I did with any of my autoloaders, I would not keep a round chambered unless I thought I would be in a position that I would need to pull and fire on very short notice. Police officers I can see needing to do that, but a pilot in the cockpit behind a barricaded door isn't going to need that short a reaction timeline. What I'm saying is I don't see the need for the pilot to keep a round chambered. No round in chamber = very safe.

BTW, we don't know that the pilot actually pulled the trigger or that he was playing with it.

:upeyes: