mpg technology going backwards? (rant) [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Jdog
03-28-2008, 15:35
Between years 1992-1995 Honda made the Civic VX hatchback. It was a normal 4-passenger 4-cylinder civic that had a regular gas engine that got between 48-56mpg.

http://www.gassavers.org/garage/view/104
http://www.autohopper.com/fuel_economy_cars/results_gas_mileage.asp

*Why can't honda or any other car manufacturer just make something similar to this now? *Has engine technology gone backwards in the last 16-years?
*Is it a conspiracy between the oil companies and the car manufacturers?
*Why does it now take an expensive hybrid to equal the same gas mileage as normal 16yr-old cars?

OUSooner
03-29-2008, 06:39
Hard to say. I know the old VW diesel engines would get between 45-50 mpg but they discontinued them because they couldn't meet emission standards. Maybe the same for that old Honda?

EUPHER49
03-29-2008, 12:00
On the other side of the coin:

This year with the onset of cold weather my gas mileage took a 20% dip. I went from 30 down to around 24. Talking with people who are savvy in auto performance I surmised that the decrease was caused by the 10% ethanol added to fuel lately. The mileage decrease was spotty at first but as winter took hold, I'm consistantly at 24 mpg. They told me that with ethanol added the fuel mixture sensor senses a lean mix so opens the throttle more to make up for the deficiency.

I did some quick calculations and found out that to drive 300 miles with 0% ethanol I use 10 gallons of fuel and get 30 mpg. With the 10% junk, I get 24 mpg which means that I burn 12.5 gallons of fuel to go the same distance, 10% of which is ethanol. Subtract the amount of ethanol (1.25 gal) I burn 11.25 gal of gasoline.

Two questions arise: Is the quality of fuel to blame for reduced gas mileage? and Is ethanol REALLY making us more self-energy dependent?

Does this make sense?

Jav21
03-29-2008, 15:59
:upeyes:

There is this thing called... crash safety. This means adding more metal to absorb crash energy and deform in certain ways.

There is this other thing called the 'American public'. Larger cars sell better. Take a trip to europe to see what I mean.

We have new 2008 fuel economy tests today which better estimate today's real world fuel economy so cars in the past were 'overrated'.

We also have new emissions requirements which require adding components and aftertreatment systems which add weight and power consumption.

People want faster cars so 97hp engines won't make the cut.

Lone Wolff
03-29-2008, 21:15
Look at your 'average' 4 door mid-size sedan of 2008. It has a 200-250 HP V6, or a 150-200HP I4.

Back in the early 80's a V6 would have 120HP, and the 4cyl were around 90-100HP. Heck, look at the small GM V8's for the late 70's F-bodies (301ci Pontiac, 305ci Chevy). Those had 135HP...For a V8!

We've got naturally aspirated 4 cyl engines with better performance than most V6's and some v8's from 30 years ago. And the fuel economy for today's 4 bangers is better than those to boot.

But in the 80's and 90's the general public has demanded is more and more horsepower, not fuel economy. So that's what we have. Somewhere in the past 10 years, people decided they would rather have a 225HP Taurus with 25-30MPG than a 110HP Escort getting 35-40MPG.

It's not so much that we've 'regressed' technologically...Just that the majority of demand for new cars has been for higher HP. Easiest way to get more HP is at the expense of fuel economy. Increase the bore, reduce the stroke.

Just my $.02.

Lone Wolff
03-29-2008, 21:20
Kinda the same with motorcycles. Engines keep getting bigger and bigger. Everyone wants one bigger, because they somehow think that equates to better.

A 250CC bike will get over 80MPG. But you hardly see any of those on the road. Everybody and their brother has to have an 1800cc Cruiser, or a 100ci(or more) HD. At half the fuel economy.

IslandHopper
03-30-2008, 13:36
Also... emissions requirements.
I can take a car off the showroom and "tweak" the ECU to gain better gas mileage, but this will cause it to fail the local emissions tests. Unfortunately, there are areas where CAFE standards and Emissions Requirements work against each other :)

JellyBelly
03-30-2008, 16:24
Somewhere in the past 10 years, people decided they would rather have a 225HP Taurus with 25-30MPG than a 110HP Escort getting 35-40MPG.


My ideal would be taking the 225 hp engine and putting in in the Escort.

You could get 30-35mpg so long as you didn't try racing at every red light.

filthy infidel
04-27-2008, 17:37
It is getting better, not worse.

To meet crash standards today's vehicles are heavier, but far more technologically advanced. The carburetor is gone, replaced by efficient and sensitive electronics. The oxygen content of exhaust gas is measured and fuel increase/decrease is adjusted.

Misfires are monitored, and a CEL illuminates to alert the operator, whereas before the likely ignorant operator would continue to drive and ignore the fault.

Cars are faster too. Old timers would boast the 0-60 times that their old Camaros and Vettes got, but the new cars smoke them handily. A quick current hatchback will show it's high mounted third brake light to most of the 'fast' cars of the seventies and eighties.

Evolution is the word.

Jdog
04-27-2008, 18:02
It's actually getting worse not better for our pocket books. A lot of folks dont want or care about horse power or evolution. We're not racing anybody. What we want and need are affordable 45-55mpg commuter cars that get 4 passengers from point A to B cheaply and go the speed limit back on the road!!!!
This economy cant afford anything less right now.
Whichever company put's an affordable (under $15k) 45-55mpg GAS powered car back on the road this year will see record sales.... guaranteed. You just watch.

JellyBelly
05-12-2008, 18:19
It's actually getting worse not better for our pocket books. A lot of folks dont want or care about horse power or evolution. We're not racing anybody. What we want and need are affordable 45-55mpg commuter cars that get 4 passengers from point A to B cheaply and go the speed limit back on the road!!!!
This economy cant afford anything less right now.
Whichever company put's an affordable (under $15k) 45-55mpg GAS powered car back on the road this year will see record sales.... guaranteed. You just watch.

Most highways are now 70mph.

I'd love to see mileage ratings at 70mph where most people drive instead of 45-ish where the unrealistic ideal is found.

PzGren
05-16-2008, 10:15
In Europe Audi and VW sell TDI, turbo diesels that rock!

The A6 comes with a 2.7 and 3.0 L TDI that does not even let you guess that you are in a diesel.
The Audi A3 2.0 L TDI with 140 h.p. can barely do 135 mph top speed but gets about 40 to 45 mpg in the city, at top speed it just gets a little over 20 mpg but at 115 mph it still gets over 35 mpg. It does not have the power like the A3 2.0 T that my son has but it is not exactly a slow car!

I just wonder why those cars are not sold in the U.S.? If the cars meet the crazy E.U. emmission standards they should easily pass here.

filthy infidel
05-16-2008, 19:12
The European emissions standards are not nearly as stringent as our own. They are currently in developmental stages, as we in the US have a larger density of four wheeled motor vehicles per capita.

We travel much farther in our vehicles than do our eastern friends. The Autobahn does not run the length of Europe. Speeds overseas are not on average nearly as fast as our interstates, so economy is a must, especially when paying by the liter in euros. You'll see madmen (and madwomen) passing traffic on motorbikes equipped with handguards and windscreens to protect against wet/cold/frigid weather- and riding them regardless of conditions. The sidewalks are littered with them, as parking is scarce.

PzGren
05-16-2008, 22:08
We might have a higher per capita car quota but the population density of Germany is a whole lot higher than the U.S. average. Diesels must have fine dust filters and cars pass emission control every two years, older cars are banned from the inner cities if they are not equipped with certain catalytic converters.
If you pay by the liter in Euros, you usually earn also Euros, so they decline of the US Dollar has little effect.

All the pollution standards are set by the E.U. and even the CO 2 output is restricted, the average SUV here would never pass!!!