147gr Federal HST's are the MOST effective 9mm round available. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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MisterWilson
04-09-2008, 13:16
Even more so than Winchester Ranger-T series.

Discuss.

Wil Terry
04-09-2008, 13:40
This is so far away from reality as to be ludicrous.

MisterWilson
04-09-2008, 13:52
I'm Cereal.

http://calorielab.com/news/wp-images/post-images/total-cereal-box.jpg

Big A
04-09-2008, 14:18
Tell you what, Have someone shoot you in the arm with one of each and tell me which hurts more.

Preußen
04-09-2008, 14:46
I'll bite - did arf.com ban you? :rofl:

they are both excellent cartridges... you're spiltting hairs

~ Rampant_Colt

MisterWilson
04-09-2008, 14:54
I'll bite - did arf.com ban you? :rofl:

they are both excellent cartridges... you're spiltting hairs

~ Rampant_Colt

NOT that it has anything to do with it...But yes.

And while I may be splitting hairs, the HST comes out the larger hair IMHO.

Preußen
04-09-2008, 15:24
And while I may be splitting hairs, the HST comes out the larger hair IMHO.
I could argue that the sharp talons of the Winchester Ranger T add an additional wound mechanism to the equation: cutting.

Based on a decision between the two loads, i'd go for whatever one is most accurate outta my pistol

crankbait11
04-09-2008, 15:44
If your gonna stir the pot, lets get real and just do it already. You've got to mention how it performs better than the 10mm. :wedgie:

4095fanatic
04-09-2008, 16:12
Search for HST... previous threads had comparison pictures and what not along with expansion rates and retained bullet weight, etc. I prefer HST, but I'm sure Ranger has its fans as well.

DerbyDale
04-09-2008, 16:52
Search for HST... previous threads had comparison pictures and what not along with expansion rates and retained bullet weight, etc. I prefer HST, but I'm sure Ranger has its fans as well.

Agreed. In most test I have seen, it appears that the HST expands larger and nastier than any other design, with the Ranger a close 2nd.

The 147gr HST is my SD ammo of choice.

BL33D 4 M3
04-09-2008, 16:54
While I hate these threads...I just gotta ask...because I'm a true believer...what about Speer 147gr GDHP?

Preußen
04-09-2008, 17:06
While I hate these threads...I just gotta ask...because I'm a true believer...what about Speer 147gr GDHP?
don't forget the Remington 147gr Golden Saber as well ;)

rgregoryb
04-09-2008, 17:08
any "premium" 9mm round is probably going to be as effective as any other premium round. It all boils down to preferences of the shooter...and the accuracy of the round from your weapon.

The best 9mm round??? I would prefer a 12 ga revolver that weighs 10 oz and has no recoil :supergrin:

DRT
04-09-2008, 17:08
Either HST or Ranger T over Gold Dot any day of the week.

rgregoryb
04-09-2008, 17:10
a handgun is to be used to fight your way back to your rifle

MisterWilson
04-09-2008, 17:30
While I hate these threads...I just gotta ask...because I'm a true believer...what about Speer 147gr GDHP?

I feel that as they are a bonded bullet, they're more for penetrating obstacles than tearing flesh.

I'd consider them a close 3rd or maybe for a backup magazine.

Wanna see a gold dot taken to it's ballistic limit? Check this out, posted at another site I'm fond of, Arizonashooting.com...

Regular 115gr Gold Dot
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/APK-223/GoldDot115three.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/APK-223/GoldDot115two.jpg

Double Tap 124gr Gold Dot +P:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/APK-223/DoubleTap1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/APK-223/DoubleTap3.jpg

Only penetrated 3 water jugs however. More pictures may be seen here.
(Crap, it won't let me post it for some reason...)

MisterWilson
04-09-2008, 17:30
http://arizonashooting.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44075&highlight=

DerbyDale
04-09-2008, 17:36
http://www.btfh.net/shoot/ballistics.html

deadday
04-09-2008, 17:38
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/deadday/45acp.jpg

4095fanatic
04-09-2008, 17:38
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u91/4095fanatic/Random/9mmtests.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u91/4095fanatic/Random/9mmtests2.jpg

DerbyDale
04-09-2008, 17:41
#7 The 147gr HST looks to be king of the hill to me.

4095fanatic
04-09-2008, 18:05
Like I said, I dumped Speer GDHP like nobody's business for Federal HST, but to each their own :). Carry what you're confident in, not what someone else is. Confidence is more important than statistics in my opinion.

jbylake
04-09-2008, 18:15
#7 The 147gr HST looks to be king of the hill to me.

Expansion is good, but one piece of information is missing, and that is retained weight.
j.:supergrin:

DerbyDale
04-09-2008, 18:21
Actually the HST line excels in retained weight as well as expansion. I can't find the link right now, but when I do I will post it...

EDIT: Found one of them...
http://shootingmessengers.blogspot.com/2006/05/wound-ballistic-workshop.html


Previous and current generations of hollow point rounds were and are designed to expand
to 1.5 times the original bullet diameter. Federal’s HST rounds were engineered to
expand well beyond twice the original diameter in bare gelatin.

Federal HST 45 ACP – 1.043”/.452” = 2.31 times larger than its original diameter
Federal HST 40 S&W – 0.945”/.40” = 2.36 times larger than its original diameter
Federal HST 9mm – 0.891”/.356” = 2.5 times larger than its original diameter

Bullet Caliber/Weight Penetration Expansion Retained Weight

Federal HST 45 ACP... 230 gr... 12.75”... 1.043”... 100.96%
Winchester SXT 45 ACP... 230 gr... 12.5”... 0.795”... 100.61%
Remington GS 45 ACP... 185 gr... 14.0”... 0.730”... 100.38%

Federal HST 40 S&W...180 gr... 11.5”... 0.945”... 101.78%
Winchester SXT 40 S&W...180 gr... 13.5”...0.658”... 92.67%

Federal HST 9mm...147 gr...11.5”... 0.891”...101.5%
Federal HST 9mm...124 gr...11.75”...0.839”... 101.05%
Winchester SXT 9mm...127 gr...16.0”...0.718”...94.49%

gary newport
04-09-2008, 18:36
a handgun is to be used to fight your way back to your rifle

Somewhat impractical if your rifle is at home and you are at the mall! :whistling:

MOHAA Player
04-09-2008, 18:46
If your gonna stir the pot, lets get real and just do it already. You've got to mention how it performs better than the 10mm. :wedgie:

They still make 10mm's:rofl:

edrobert
04-09-2008, 18:56
It' all splitting hairs to me as they all look about the same and will prove to be effective. Those small differences in expansion using ballistic gelatin will go unnoticed in a real life shooting when you add in clothes, hair, skin, & bones.

Oh, and I currently have 147gr HST in my CZ.....gonna pick up some 127gr +P+ Rangers from one of the shops I frequent soon for my 9mm converted G24......that should be an interesting round from a 6" barrel!!!

Rugby
04-09-2008, 19:29
It' all splitting hairs to me as they all look about the same and will prove to be effective. Those small differences in expansion using ballistic gelatin will go unnoticed in a real life shooting when you add in clothes, hair, skin, & bones.

Oh, and I keep 147gr HST in my 9mm.....gonna pick up some 127gr +P+ Rangers soon as well for my 9mm converted G24......that should be an interesting round from a 6" barrel!!!

gonna pick up some 127gr +P+ Rangers soon

Good luck!

drc767
04-09-2008, 22:32
Good luck!


No kidding. That is one of the reasons I went to the HST 147g. The 127 +P+ Rangers were getting pretty tough to come by.

edrobert
04-10-2008, 05:46
I can get it at one of my frequent shops.....PM me if you want me to pick some up for you.

TylerDurden
04-10-2008, 09:19
If the testing I've seen is indicitive of real-world performance, then HST is the best thing going right now.

I carry the 180 grain HSTs in my .40 USP and I feel that it is the finest firearm/cartridge combination in the world. In fact, I am absolutely certain of it. ;)

hotpig
04-10-2008, 09:42
HST still lacks real world results, but the few shooting with the 147gr look like it may be a good round.

NG VI
04-10-2008, 10:02
I am holding a 230 grain +P HST I shot into a snowbank last night. It is incredible! I really like the golden saber, but only a couple versions come in 50 round boxes, and TDS is a good place to buy from, so I bought two boxes of the HST. It is ridiculous. I will have to post a picture soon because it is the hairiest looking thing I've ever recovered. And it will certainly also cut the hell out of whatever is unlucky enough to catch it.

Jason607
04-10-2008, 10:19
How did Federal get the HST's lead to hold that shape? Most other brands just look like a ball of led with a jacket around it. The HST looks like a peice of jewerly. Either that or an Alien Spider.

degoodman
04-10-2008, 11:24
Keep in mind that bare gel and especially water (emphasis on the especially water part) are probably the least predictive tests of on street performance. ANY bullet that has even the most remote chance of expanding will expand to the largest and most beautiful mushroom you'll ever see in water, and bare gel ain't far behind. That's even for bullets with substantial and well documented histories of NOT expanding on the street.

That's not to say that the HST isn't a quality round that should be a solid street performer. It should join the ranks of the Gold Dot, Ranger, Golden Saber, DPX as current accceptable defensive rounds. However if you're placing ANY of those on a pedestal clearly above the others you're making a mistake.

Buy the one that you have the best access to at the best prices, shoots the best in your carry weapon and don't sweat the rest. I also prefer to select rounds that I have a local source for, even if I normally go to the internet for the bulk of my purchases. Remember, the best archers is not known by his arrow, but by his aim.

BrokenArrow
04-10-2008, 13:16
The FBI disagrees. They tested just about everything and decided the 147g Ranger Bonded was the best. ;)

Glock17JHP
04-10-2008, 14:19
http://www.btfh.net/shoot/ballistics.html

DerbyDale,
Nice link, and great pictures!!!

imaguy3
04-10-2008, 15:54
HST still lacks real world results, but the few shooting with the 147gr look like it may be a good round.



Maybe the 9mm. 147gr. lacks real world results.... However the Tucson Police Department carries the HST's in .40, I believe the 165gr. They've had several officer involved shootings this year. Not to mention the shootings for the past few years where they've still been carrying HST's...

They don't seem to have any problem showing that the round works...

MisterWilson
04-10-2008, 16:03
I thought TPD carried Gold Dots. When did they make the switch?

philly b
04-10-2008, 16:17
While I hate these threads...I just gotta ask...because I'm a true believer...what about Speer 147gr GDHP?

if you hate these threads what the hell are you doing in caliber corner? :dunno:

DerbyDale
04-10-2008, 16:23
Keep in mind that bare gel and especially water (emphasis on the especially water part) are probably the least predictive tests of on street performance. ANY bullet that has even the most remote chance of expanding will expand to the largest and most beautiful mushroom you'll ever see in water, and bare gel ain't far behind. That's even for bullets with substantial and well documented histories of NOT expanding on the street.

That's not to say that the HST isn't a quality round that should be a solid street performer. It should join the ranks of the Gold Dot, Ranger, Golden Saber, DPX as current accceptable defensive rounds. However if you're placing ANY of those on a pedestal clearly above the others you're making a mistake.

Buy the one that you have the best access to at the best prices, shoots the best in your carry weapon and don't sweat the rest. I also prefer to select rounds that I have a local source for, even if I normally go to the internet for the bulk of my purchases. Remember, the best archers is not known by his arrow, but by his aim.

I agree with what you said about the water and bare gel tests, as they are by far the easiest tests to pass. I have a link somewhere of a test that did multi layer denim over the gel. While the bullets did not look as pretty, the results were still the same. The HST consistently out preformed the other designs (at least in my opinion). They still had excellent expansion and retained weight. (I will see if I can dig that link up.)

Even with all the tests in the world. They are still only "tests", and can be subjective on which is the "best" design. I for one feel more confident in choosing the design that performed the best across the board in these tests. I want EVERY advantage I can get, because my life or the lives of my family may one day depend on it. Provided the #1 performer function well in my pistol... I could not pick the #3 or #10 performing design, and feel confident with that choice.


EDIT: Found one link. I had already posted this one before, but in case anyone missed it. Here are some tests on everything from bare gel to auto glass.

I have more, but I will see if I can dig them up later...

http://shootingmessengers.blogspot.com/2006/05/wound-ballistic-workshop.html (http://shootingmessengers.blogspot.com/2006/05/wound-ballistic-workshop.html)

hotpig
04-10-2008, 16:31
Maybe the 9mm. 147gr. lacks real world results.... However the Tucson Police Department carries the HST's in .40, I believe the 165gr. They've had several officer involved shootings this year. Not to mention the shootings for the past few years where they've still been carrying HST's...

They don't seem to have any problem showing that the round works...

Thats not enough with the 40 for me to stop carrying a proven round.

There have been almost two dozen LE shootings in the Pacific NW with the 147gr 9mm. It looks real promising.

Actually when you figure in PMC Starfire record it shows that the HST should be a top performer. Time will tell for sure

imaguy3
04-10-2008, 16:57
I thought TPD carried Gold Dots. When did they make the switch?

I know when I started there in Sept. of '05 they were issuing HST's. I no longer work there however I have a couple buddies who just started, they too were issued HST's... So at least since the fall of 05

Prostatix
04-10-2008, 17:01
I carry the RA9TA in my 9mm's, because it has proven itself. If I didn't have a whole bunch of it I would probably be carrying the 147gr HST.

That being said, I would not hesitate to carry Golden Sabers, Gold dots, or DPX rounds.

The .45 230gr HST is one mean SOB!

ContractSoldier
04-10-2008, 21:45
Looking at all of the workshop data on the Federal HST 147 Gr., I will say I like the expansion It offers however, penetration Is the single most Important factor to be consider when choosing an effective self defense hollow point. That being said, going over all of the data, It seems that more often then not, the Winchester Ranger SXT 147 Gr. penetrate's deeper then the Federal Tactical HST 147 Gr.

All I know Is that I've decide to make the switch from the light and fast +P rounds to the 147 Gr., I just have to decide on the Federal HST or the Winchester SXT. Most likely I'll go with the Winchester Ranger SXT due too It's deeper penetration and proven record In real life shootings.

arizona_andy
04-10-2008, 21:53
"147gr Federal HST's are the MOST effective 9mm round available."

False.

Based on data compiled from 7 separate wound ballistic workshops (held by the parent company of Federal) the 147gr HST has extremely poor performance through autoglass (around 7.5" penetration), and still doesn't get as much penetration as RA9T through bare gel/heavy cloth.

HST achieves slightly larger expansion, which does not make up for its lack of penetration. Don't believe what I've said? Visit http://le.atk.com and see for yourself.

The Winchester Ranger 147gr is still the most effective 147gr 9mm load.

Glock17JHP
04-10-2008, 21:56
Looking at all of the workshop data on the Federal HST 147 Gr., I will say I like the expansion It offers however, penetration Is the single most Important factor to be consider when choosing an effective self defense hollow point. That being said, going over all of the data, It seems that more often then not, the Winchester Ranger SXT 147 Gr. penetrate's deeper then the Federal Tactical HST 147 Gr.

All I know Is that I've decide to make the switch from the light and fast +P rounds to the 147 Gr., I just have to decide on the Federal HST or the Winchester SXT. Most likely I'll go with the Winchester Ranger SXT due too It's deeper penetration and proven record In real life shootings.

I would agree with ContractSoldier at this point...

My current favored load is the Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP (RA9T)...

I have 1 1/2 cases of Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP (RA9T)... I have the complete (all 8 stages) 'FBI Protocol' on my computer (from Winchester) for this load. I have ATK in the process right now of sending me 1 box each (Qty. 50) of Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot, both in 147 grain HP 'flavor'. ATK is also sending me the complete 'FBI Protocol' for these 2 loads. After I test all 3 'side-by-side', I will make a final decision on whether to change from the Ranger, or not...

I like the apparent expansion characteristics of the HST, but I like the penetration depth of the Ranger, and the 'cutting action' of it's jacket. The Gold Dot design is OK, too... but not sure I like it as much as the other 2...

Time will tell...

Clem Eastwood
04-10-2008, 21:57
i carry these

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/cab0154/ra9t.jpg

when its not real feaseable to carry these

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/cab0154/fedgmx250.jpg

or these

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/cab0154/12-ga-tactical.jpg

so much for happy medium

Glock17JHP
04-10-2008, 22:03
These for my Glock 17...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/WinchesterRanger9mmJHP.jpg

These for my Winchester Defender 8-shot 'synthetic'...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/WinchesterSupremeXXMag12Ga.Buckshot.jpg

And these if there is a car...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/BrennekeHeavyFieldShortMag12Ga.Slug.jpg

lastevolution
04-10-2008, 22:39
I agree.

My carry load of choice is the Federal HST 147gr. stuff.

Blitzer
04-10-2008, 22:41
A work of cheesie pulp fiction at best. Which data says they are the best field reports of actual shootings or lab tests and projections and simulations? Plots don't lie but lairs plot.:upeyes:

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa288/Blitzer0101/cheese/cheese_mix4.jpg

Blitzer
04-10-2008, 22:47
any "premium" 9mm round is probably going to be as effective as any other premium round. It all boils down to preferences of the shooter...and the accuracy of the round from your weapon.

The best 9mm round??? I would prefer a 12 ga revolver that weighs 10 oz and has no recoil :supergrin:


Try this: http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa288/Blitzer0101/guns/revolverhellboy.jpg

;)

ULVER
04-10-2008, 22:58
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/deadday/45acp.jpg

Women, pansies, and 90% of the world's military special ops, tactical, and anti-terrorist units.:wavey:

Solid
04-11-2008, 00:21
Women, pansies, and 90% of the world's military special ops, tactical, and anti-terrorist units.:wavey:

Don't mind him, he is a person that needs large bullets to compensate :rofl:

Everyone knows 9mm bounce off people, as they are immune to them. The .45 will vaporize anything it touches.

BL33D 4 M3
04-11-2008, 06:14
if you hate these threads what the hell are you doing in caliber corner? :dunno:

Well, its a love/hate thing. :tongueout:

Snowman92D
04-11-2008, 06:30
There have been almost two dozen LE shootings in the Pacific NW with the 147gr 9mm. It looks real promising.

Indeed. The large LE agency using them had been laboring under the time worn myth of the .45 ACP being the only thing that works. Mechanical problems with their Glock 21's caused them to "temporarily" adopt the Glock 17 with 147 HST's. Purely as an interim measure, of course. After they had superb results in a dozen or so gunfights, they declined to change back to their previously used caliber.

Must be something in the water up in that part of the country. :supergrin:

Clem Eastwood
04-11-2008, 09:22
Indeed. The large LE agency using them had been laboring under the time worn myth of the .45 ACP being the only thing that works. Mechanical problems with their Glock 21's caused them to "temporarily" adopt the Glock 17 with 147 HST's. Purely as an interim measure, of course. After they had superb results in a dozen or so gunfights, they declined to change back to their previously used caliber.

Must be something in the water up in that part of the country. :supergrin:

theres something in the water all right. i lived in those parts in my childhood. its an interesting part of the country, to say the least.

NickoGlock
04-11-2008, 21:31
dot forget thats most likely out of a 5" barrel

kmrcstintn
04-11-2008, 21:48
dot forget thats most likely out of a 5" barrel

that's a good thing since I just got a few boxes for my Beretta M-9 commercial variant w/ 5" barrel;

if you have a shorter barreled gun & want some speed to compensate for the shorter barrel, then you might want to consider the HST 124gr in either standard pressure or +p pressure variants

hotpig
04-11-2008, 22:10
Don't worry about the velocity thing, its the 21st century. The numbers are meaningless with the modern premium handgun ammo.

DerbyDale
04-12-2008, 03:18
that's a good thing since I just got a few boxes for my Beretta M-9 commercial variant w/ 5" barrel;

if you have a shorter barreled gun & want some speed to compensate for the shorter barrel, then you might want to consider the HST 124gr in either standard pressure or +p pressure variants

Not according to Winchesters Senior Technical Specialist...


"In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollow point, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments."

Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

Glock17JHP
04-12-2008, 09:59
Don't worry about the velocity thing, its the 21st century. The numbers are meaningless with the modern premium handgun ammo.

Meaningless? Really?

hotpig
04-12-2008, 10:18
Meaningless? Really?

Yip, see the second paragraph in blue from DerbyDale's post above .

Glock17JHP
04-13-2008, 22:06
We are not on the same page...
I agree that we can get bullets to perform the right way at different velocities through tweaking of the bullet design, that was not my point...
My point is that a given bullet may perform better at a different range than another, the velocity has to be right for the specific bullet... and the barrel length will affect this as well...
There are different loads that are best for different pistols/barrel lengths, this is where testing in gelatin or water becomes helpful...

darkscribe
04-14-2008, 18:02
Yip, see the second paragraph in blue from DerbyDale's post above .

Mike speaks well. The HST is a monster of a subsonic round, and I have no qualms about loading in my carry piece.

It must be the water....always falling on us.

Glock17JHP
04-14-2008, 20:46
Not according to Winchesters Senior Technical Specialist...


"In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollow point, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments."

Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

Paul Nowak?

hotpig
04-14-2008, 20:57
Paul Nowak?


Paul puts his name on all of his emails. Here is the last one that I received.

Dear Mike:



This was an overrun of a Law Enforcement item. Although the packaging is different the product is the same.



Sincerely,



Paul Nowak

Senior Technical Specialist

Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

DerbyDale
04-15-2008, 04:44
Paul Nowak?

Yes it was. He did sign the emails, I just left his name off.

Glock17JHP
04-15-2008, 09:52
Yes it was. He did sign the emails, I just left his name off.

He's a good guy... I've dealt with him many times over the years.

onesiphorus
04-15-2008, 11:17
If your gonna stir the pot, lets get real and just do it already. You've got to mention how it performs better than the 10mm. :wedgie:

What does this have to do with this original post? "My caliber is better than your caliber, Nha Nha Nha".

J.P.
04-16-2008, 10:56
HST still lacks real world results, but the few shooting with the 147gr look like it may be a good round.
Indeed.
I've not heard any negative reports on the round at all but as you suggest, there are simply not street results for me to make the switch.


I agree with what you said about the water and bare gel tests, as they are by far the easiest tests to pass. I have a link somewhere of a test that did multi layer denim over the gel. While the bullets did not look as pretty, the results were still the same.




Don't worry about the velocity thing, its the 21st century. The numbers are meaningless with the modern premium handgun ammo.
I somewhat disagree with you on this issue.
While we generally don't require more velocity for a bullet to expand since modern bullets are designed around specific velocity windows, that doesn't mean that raising the velocity won't help under less than ideal conditions.
All bullets can clog or fail but pushing it faster decreases that likelyhood.
A bullet that fragments or tries to fragment is going to be the most reliable expander under extreme conditions.
The only issue is whether or not you can live with the penetration results.

joedel
04-18-2008, 00:54
Looking at those expanded bullets, it's obvious that round placement is a far more important factor than the round itself (assuming you use any of these high-quality JHP's).

With that in mind I would carry the round that you can shoot most accurately under combat conditions. That of course and 100% functional reliability. So my suggestion would be to do a bit of practical shooting with as many of the rounds as you can and see which gives you the best and most consistent accuracy. That will also tell you which rounds, if any, aren't 100% reliable in your particular weapon.

Now doesn't that sound a lot more fun than measuring expanded bullet diameters and retained bullet wights?

That said, I carry Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+'s (purchased from one of our very own posters here before he ran out of stock - temporarily I hope!).

J.P.
04-18-2008, 18:20
Looking at those expanded bullets, it's obvious that round placement is a far more important factor than the round itself (assuming you use any of these high-quality JHP's).

With that in mind I would carry the round that you can shoot most accurately under combat conditions. That of course and 100% functional reliability.

Most of us take those things for granted because they are obviously important fundamentals.
Beyond that we can try to select rounds that may give us more of an advantage than others.

stormbringerr
04-27-2008, 23:51
i use federal 147gr hst in my carry gun. they have consistently won every ballistics test against all other ammo .even the shots through windshield glass.:perfect10:

i mostly paid attention to the tests w/9mm because thats what i carry.the federal hst in other calibers are just as effective though.

shackiejake
04-28-2008, 07:11
Here it is..........

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://shootingmessengers.blogspot.c...-workshop.html

Like I said before the 124 standard pressure outperformed the 147 in several test. IMO the 124 is the overall winner. I will let everyone reach their on conclusion.

The test looks pretty well done and appears to be legit. I am sure it has been posted here before so I apologize if I am rehashing anything.

One would have to assume that 124 +p would even perform better. I would love to see some test results from the 124+p

So far as recoil just depends on the person and the weapon. I have found that in general my Glock and M&P run very well with 124 grain bullets at 1200 FPS. This is my chosen IDPA/ISPC load and steel falls excellent with is and it very controllable and my splits are excellent with this load. I have tried to down load some to game a little more and my splits actually got worse. Don't know if I am just conditioned to the hotter load or what. Nice to be in practice with the load you carry!

All that being said I have a Witness Match that runs better with a 147 at 1000 FPS. That sights seem to track a little better and the accuracy seems better with the 147. Steel doesn't seem to fall as well with 147 as the 124 but maybe that is more mental than anything. Either load will drop steel when I do my part.

Also notice how well the SXT did in the test. I have also found that SXT to be some of the most accurate HP I have ever used. Not had the same results with the HST.

The reason I started this thread because I see the 147 HST always gets all the attention and not sure why the 124 are never discussed. Just curious why?
Another guick thought

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Felt recoil can be deceiving. I encourage everyone to check their splits with different weight bullets. Of course you must hit what you are shooting at for quick splits to count.

The design of the gun and weight of the slide IMO has a lot to do with what weight bullet works best. Some time faster slides feel snappier and seem to recoil more but in fact return to target quicker, which produce faster splits.

I would take faster split and easier to track sights over the small differences between the 124 or 147 performance. It is surprising to always hear about push vs snap recoil. Either one may actually help the shooter, check your splits and the real story is told.

All being equally a strong argument can be made that the 124 HST has a slight edge over the 147 HST. I would still resort to which one works for me and my weapon.

Also 147 will often times shoot high with factory sights. Check POI and determine, if not you may not get a fair assessment.

shackiejake
04-28-2008, 09:21
i use federal 147gr hst in my carry gun. they have consistently won every ballistics test against all other ammo .even the shots through windshield glass.:perfect10:

i mostly paid attention to the tests w/9mm because thats what i carry.the federal hst in other calibers are just as effective though.


Sense you mentioned windsheild glass pay attention to it in the test.

I am repasting the link I hope it works this time.

http://shootingmessengers.blogspot.com/2006/05/wound-ballistic-workshop.html

RLDS45S
04-28-2008, 12:51
Hype aside, carry what works well in your gun. A few thousandths either way is not going to make that much difference!

BrokenArrow
04-29-2008, 10:41
Discuss.

Yes.

No.

Maybe.

Next?

Glockdude1
04-29-2008, 10:44
Yes.

No.

Maybe.

Next?

:agree:

stormbringerr
05-03-2008, 16:22
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/deadday/45acp.jpg

the day you get hit w/a 147gr federal hst round you will whine like a pansey:crying:..... if you are still alive to do so.

BroknPrism
03-08-2009, 14:13
"Mechanical problems with their Glock 21s caused them to 'temporarily' adopt the Glock 17 with 147 HSTs."

Some poor Baptist pastor in Illinois took a .45 to the chest today and he's gone. Of course, he wasn't shooting back. Should have been.

The chances of many Americans ever being in a firefight - short of an invasion by China or the Attorney General - are almost none.

In the unlikely event that a fight comes to me, it's almost certain that it will happen only once in my lifetime.

For that one time, if it should come, I'd feel pretty secure behind a G21 stuffed with HSTs. I would feel less secure behind the equivalent of a semi-auto .38 special +P. Just saying. It's not just about expansion, it's also (and maybe even more) about penetration. So yeah, 147 sounds good, unless there's a 158, a 180, a 210, a 230, a 240, or a 1 oz slug available.

happyguy
03-08-2009, 14:36
"Mechanical problems with their Glock 21s caused them to 'temporarily' adopt the Glock 17 with 147 HSTs."

Some poor Baptist pastor in Illinois took a .45 to the chest today and he's gone. Of course, he wasn't shooting back. Should have been.

The chances of many Americans ever being in a firefight - short of an invasion by China or the Attorney General - are almost none.

In the unlikely event that a fight comes to me, it's almost certain that it will happen only once in my lifetime.

For that one time, if it should come, I'd feel pretty secure behind a G21 stuffed with HSTs. I would feel less secure behind the equivalent of a semi-auto .38 special +P. Just saying. It's not just about expansion, it's also (and maybe even more) about penetration. So yeah, 147 sounds good, unless there's a 158, a 180, a 210, a 230, a 240, or a 1 oz slug available.

Except that the 147 grain RA9T penetrates deeper than the 230 grain HST. :supergrin:

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Snowman92D
03-08-2009, 14:52
I've not heard any negative reports on the round at all but as you suggest, there are simply not street results for me to make the switch.

J.P. --- San Diego PD has been using HST in 9mm, .40 and .45 for some time now. They've told me that it's a really superb performer and the recovered rounds nearly always look like the ones in gell-o test photos. Lotta OIS shootin' going on in that part of the country.

BroknPrism
03-08-2009, 15:17
Except that the 147 grain RA9T penetrates deeper than the 230 grain HST

I didn't know that, but I'm impressed. I like Ranger and HST both.

I'm always faced with a caliber choice because I can usually afford only one gun at a time, and I have more experience with the .45 than any other caliber. If I owned a 9mm I would definitely load it with the heaviest bullets available.

SIGShooter
03-08-2009, 18:00
J.P. --- San Diego PD has been using HST in 9mm, .40 and .45 for some time now. They've told me that it's a really superb performer and the recovered rounds nearly always look like the ones in gell-o test photos. Lotta OIS shootin' going on in that part of the country.



I wish I had one of the referee flags here...I call BS!

Have you ever seen a recovered bullet after it has been fired into a living creature, human or animal?

Bones do funny things to bullets when they hit them.

Natty
03-08-2009, 19:38
HST has been tested against other LE ammo and outperforms other hollowpoints in most tests. And the 147gr is the 9mm HST tested. But Gold Dot seems to perform better at shooting thru autoglass.

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

cowboy1964
01-01-2010, 19:29
Not according to Winchesters Senior Technical Specialist...


"In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollow point, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments."

Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

Wouldn't you get a lot of muzzle flash if the powder wasn't burning completely before the bullet exited the barrel?

I don't have specific links in front of me but I've never seen chrono readings that indicate lighter faster bullets lose more velocity (as a %) then the heavier bullets. You'd have to be talking REALLY short barrels.

slewfoot
01-01-2010, 19:48
They still make 10mm's:rofl:

Sure they do. You can usually find one or two boxes in the dusty corner of the gun store shelf along with the 45 GAP.:supergrin:

kymarkh
01-01-2010, 19:57
Either HST or Ranger T over Gold Dot any day of the week.

Whichever is on sale at the time - Gold Dot included.

JimBianchi
01-01-2010, 20:14
I used to carry Double Tap 147g +p (Gold Dot bullets) until they raised the prices by 50%. I did the research on premium ammo and HST 147 came out way a head. 127+p+ was a close second but no one had 500 to 1000rd for sale when I was in need of the ammo. That ammo has legion of current and of ex-police fanboys that sing it's praises, but the 127 stuff was scarce and I won't carry a new ammo without testing it in each gun and each mag for about 150rds total per gun, so I buy a bunch once I choose a carry ammo. HST were available and still are and it has devolved a much deserved fan club all of its own.

I am very happy and secure with my choice. (I carry it in my Kahr MK9 and G26)

MURRAY
01-02-2010, 08:38
I carry it and love it that being said I also have some 147 ranger T in another G 19 I have they both shoot cycle and group almost the exact same for my guns I would use either. As far as the caliber war I wont go there

Molon
01-03-2010, 22:09
I don't have specific links in front of me but I've never seen chrono readings that indicate lighter faster bullets lose more velocity (as a %) then the heavier bullets. You'd have to be talking REALLY short barrels.

No you wouldn't. The Kahr MK9 has a 3" barrel.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/8rn9kt1k9e.jpg