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Hazzmatt
04-09-2008, 15:53
My kid just graduated basic and AIT (?) at Ft. Leonard Wood as an MP and told me that they were told that they could only carry their pistol with an empty chamber. My question is..was this just for the training phase or does the military require MP's to operate that way when on duty?

Biscuitsjam
04-10-2008, 09:43
I don't know about MPs specifically...

However, I will say that when we were in Iraq, in a really nasty sector with daily attacks, some leader-type put out that policy for us. Weapon status "green" (weapon unloaded) inside the wire and weapon status "amber" (mag inserted, chamber empty) outside the wire. The policy wasn't enforced, however, and most of my base was "red" (weapon loaded) 24/7 until we changed bases 6 months later.

I think a similar official policy of weapon-status "amber" is true for MOST soldiers even when enemy contact is likely. Actual practice is going to depend on the unit, but I would NOT be surprised if that policy applied to most MPs.

AF-Odin
04-10-2008, 18:31
From what I have seen, most Army MPs stateside carry with a full mag and empty chamber. This is the same way they used to carry the .45. The USAF Security Forces I have associated with carry with a round in the chamber and the hammer dropped using the decocking lever--assumption is that a DA pistol with a round in the chamber and hammer down is the same as the old USAF revolver with six in the cylinder and the hammer down. Like Bisquitsjam says, a lot of variance in theater depending on FOB and unit

Biscuitsjam
04-10-2008, 23:22
The safety on the M9 is pretty pathetic, so maybe it is a good idea to carry with an empty chamber... I tried several different holsters, and mine would always switch to "fire" at least once a day. After a while, I started checking the thing every five minutes or so...

USDB2FCI
04-17-2008, 21:31
Yes stateside no round in the chamber per SOP. At the post I was at(stateside) most MP's had 1 in the chamber. It was one of those rules that was not enforced or talked about.

cknx77
05-04-2008, 09:24
I'm an MP and carry status depends on unit and mission. There are MPs in Combat Support units, Law and Order units, MPs tasked to do Protective Service Details, etc. and they are all very different missions with different SOPs. Some are issued M11s for certain missions but mostly the M9 is the standard. If it were up to me the M9 Beretta would be retired for the M11 SIG (P228)! But then again the M4 would make a good boat anchor and I'd replace the M4 with the HK 416 or XM8 rifle...........

chance3290
05-05-2008, 15:06
During my second tour of Europe (90-93) MPs couldn't even carry a magazine in the weapon. Made me sick, but at least that way, when your weapon was taken from you, they didn't have the means to shoot you...unless they brought their own gun.:steamed:

tc556guy
05-06-2008, 04:28
The safety on the M9 is pretty pathetic, so maybe it is a good idea to carry with an empty chamber...

There is no way that firing pin is going to drop forward onto the primer for a chambered round on a decocked M9.

MrMurphy
05-06-2008, 05:38
As said, USAF Security Forces (I am one) carry round in the chamber, safety off. Army apparently does not (and when we are around Army troops, this apparently causes some heartburn for SNCOs and officers, and some of OUR SNCOs and officers have apparently had some heated words with Army people trying to tell our guys "you can't do that" downrange.

One of our senior NCOs (now moved on) told us in guardmount one day for the benefit of the new guys that USAF SF troops are the only people "as a group" meaning with no exceptions, that carry a live round in the chamber safety off in the entire US military (excepting special agents like OSI/CID etc) with handguns. Doesn't matter if you're an E-2 right out of tech school, they trust you not to accidentally blow yourself or someone else away. It does happen (idiot when I was deployed did what he wasn't supposed to do, played around with his M9 and shot himself in the knee) but by and large it's an accident-free way of conducting business, and it's nice to know your 9 is always ready to rock right out of the holster with no other BS.

We did find it hard to believe Army MPs carry empty chamber, since the entire reasoning behind adopting the DA M9 was "we can carry it loaded and ready to go, safety off".

chance3290
05-06-2008, 06:32
I helped bring the M9 on line for the MP Corps at McClellan, and I taught it in both the classrooms and Ranges 19 & 13. The M9 is a very safe weapon with a round in the chamber.
Murphy, I had one of those encounters as an E-6 in Germany. I took a squad to an AF base for a couple of weeks of PSD. When he found out we didn't carry ammo in the weapon, the AF E-2 escort said: "Ya'll don't carry ammo?" "They let us keep one in the chamber."
Knowing the M9, I knew that was perfectly safe. I wasn't pissed at the E-2 or the AF, I was pissed at my Army and MP Corps for having such a stupid reg.
But the Army in Europe has a history of such rules and regs. During my first tour a drunken GI fell off an overpass on his way back to the barracks. So after that, that had to be an E-6 or higher posted at both ends to make sure the drunks didn't fall off. BTW the only way to fall off was to first climb up the safety fence.

MrMurphy
05-06-2008, 06:40
Yeah, the AF does do some seriously stupid stuff, but with the M9, and general pistol training (what little we get) someone was paying attention. They make SURE you know in M9 classes it has a heavy DA trigger, manual safety, firing pin block, etc. i.e if this gun goes off, it's because you made it do it.

I've got 20+ years of shooting experience, and I own a 92FS as a training weapon (before I came in) so I have no trouble with it, but a few people do (other than the small-hands, big gun thing).

deadday
05-06-2008, 06:46
I helped bring the M9 on line for the MP Corps at McClellan, and I taught it in both the classrooms and Ranges 19 & 13. The M9 is a very safe weapon with a round in the chamber.
Murphy, I had one of those encounters as an E-6 in Germany. I took a squad to an AF base for a couple of weeks of PSD. When he found out we didn't carry ammo in the weapon, the AF E-2 escort said: "Ya'll don't carry ammo?" "They let us keep one in the chamber."
Knowing the M9, I knew that was perfectly safe. I wasn't pissed at the E-2 or the AF, I was pissed at my Army and MP Corps for having such a stupid reg.
But the Army in Europe has a history of such rules and regs. During my first tour a drunken GI fell off an overpass on his way back to the barracks. So after that, that had to be an E-6 or higher posted at both ends to make sure the drunks didn't fall off. BTW the only way to fall off was to first climb up the safety fence.


Sounds like Army Europe and USFK are on the same page....At least there's not curfew in Germany...



drew

AF-Odin
05-06-2008, 16:47
Before I retired, we used to drive the Army range safety guys crazy doing the AF course of fire for our semi-annual quals. The draw and fire then re-holster sent the Army into orbit, but luckily we had an MOA that stated as long as we had OUR CATM guy on the range as the RSO, we could abide by AF vice Army rules. When we had to fire the Army course of fire, it may have been pop-up targets, but all firing started from depressed pistol stance and returned to depressed pistol stance and no mag changes during a stage, only between stages.

taco101
05-06-2008, 17:47
I was an MP prior to the M9. I carried a 1911 and the SOP was 5 rounds in the mag and the chamber empty. I had a great platoon Sgt. (thanks papa smurf) that ordered us to carry a full mag and loaded chamber. We all carried hot. And no one narced out the boss. We just loaded up away from guardmount.

deadday
05-06-2008, 17:59
I was an MP prior to the M9. I carried a 1911 and the SOP was 5 rounds in the mag and the chamber empty. I had a great platoon Sgt. (thanks papa smurf) that ordered us to carry a full mag and loaded chamber. We all carried hot. And no one narced out the boss. We just loaded up away from guardmount.

Why only 5 rounds? Do you know?



drew

taco101
05-06-2008, 20:11
SOP was all mags get downloaded by two rounds. In the M-16 it did increase reliability.(my current m-4 mags all have 28 rounds)

Lots of stuff in the military is done...because. That is the only reason to download a 1911 mag.

chance3290
05-06-2008, 20:54
I remember the five rounds. We were suppose to go empty chamber with 5, when I first started in the 82nd MP co in 77. We had good Viet Nam vets as squad leader/platoon sergeants and they looked the other way when we added 2 (or three :whistling:)
Then came my first trip to Germany with the 503rd MP Co (3RD AD)84-87. I was now the vet Squad Leader in an outlining platoon, who told the kids to upload.
I swear this next part is true. In the main company in Frankfurt (Drake Kaserne), going on duty went like this: You drew your 1911, two empty mags and 10 loose rounds from the arms room and went directly to the clearing barrel where your sergeant was waiting. You racked your slide three times, kept the slide forward and holstered. You then loaded 5 into a mag whilst calling out 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 to your sergeant. That mag went into the pouch. You repeated with the other mag and put that one in the pistol. At the end of shift you repeated this. IN OTHER WORDS, you NEVER had a LOADED PISTOL IN YOUR HAND.

chance3290
05-06-2008, 21:03
I also remember one day when a crazed GI came to Drake Kaserne, beat his 1SG and disarmed THREE MPs from my unit. Not one even tried to draw on this nut. The Polizei later shot the guy.
I remember when our Provost Marshal flipped out because no one did anything to stop the guy. He asked one of my guys if he would have drawn on the man. My Private proudly declared: "No Sir, I know better than to draw a loaded weapon." The PM flipped out on my guy and I couldn't hold back. I explained to the Colonel about how every MP is trained to never hold a loaded pistol in his hand...etc, and other career ended ****-chat. Fortunately for me, that PM retired soon afterward. But the policy didn't change.

bagballa
05-06-2008, 21:47
The safety on the M9 is pretty pathetic, so maybe it is a good idea to carry with an empty chamber... I tried several different holsters, and mine would always switch to "fire" at least once a day. After a while, I started checking the thing every five minutes or so...

Bad safety..? Is the trigger finger sold separately? Some holsters for the 92 are designed to deactivate safety when drawn. The one I had in iraq was made that way but It wouldnt always disengage the safety. If you ever had to use one in combat its pretty much SHTF, and no help.

MP's do carry on duty Red or Amber depending on what their doing.
M4's usually amber.

chance3290
05-06-2008, 21:57
I never had a problem with the safety on the M9. I used it to decock...that was it. I never carried it with the safety on. In a war zone....ooops, sorry, hostile fire zone, the M9 was carried with the round chambered and the safety off. This was regardless of what you were told by the poges.

mikeflys1
05-06-2008, 22:29
Lots of stuff in the military is done...because. That is the only reason to download a 1911 mag.

QFT


In germany (giessen and hanau) we had to carry with an empty chamber....and you were supposed to get permission from the desk sgt to chamber one :rofl:

Biscuitsjam
05-07-2008, 00:14
Bad safety..? Is the trigger finger sold separately? Some holsters for the 92 are designed to deactivate safety when drawn. The one I had in iraq was made that way but It wouldnt always disengage the safety. If you ever had to use one in combat its pretty much SHTF, and no help.

MP's do carry on duty Red or Amber depending on what their doing.
M4's usually amber.None of us ever had a ND with one, if that's what you mean. Weapon decocked, finger off the trigger, weapon stays inside holster...

We were issued some really pathetic army holsters, so most of us went out and bought our own. Drop-leg mostly, but some chest and shoulder holsters, usually without multiple retention devices. With most of these civilian holsters, the safety switch was partially exposed and would FREQUENTLY switch to fire. That's the kind of thing that officers and NCOs like to make a big deal out of...

It wasn't just one or two brands either, it was most of our holsters, including even the army-issued ones.

MrMurphy
05-07-2008, 05:52
Since we carry ours on fire, this wasn't a problem, our Safarilands didn't interfere. Occasionally we'd smack something just right and the weapon would go to halfcock, so you'd have to decock it in the holster. An occasional eyeball at the hammer was enough (only happened to me twice in six months deployed, and never at home station).

Bren
05-07-2008, 10:35
The safety on the M9 is pretty pathetic, so maybe it is a good idea to carry with an empty chamber... I tried several different holsters, and mine would always switch to "fire" at least once a day. After a while, I started checking the thing every five minutes or so...

The civilian police generally carry them with a loaded chamber and the safety off, as they do with all double action semi-autos with safeties. The only problem with the lever is if it is on safe when it should be on fire - generally it is used as a decocker.

chance3290
05-07-2008, 11:33
Lots of stuff in the military is done...because.

:rofl: For years I looked for those two regs; AR 670-Because and AR 180-You can't do that here. Never found either.
We Gelnhausen we had these little blocks of wood with ten holes in each. The .45 fmj were in the holes and you took one, your pistol and two mags. When I first got there the rounds were just about green. I told the PSG to switch them out with the practice ammo. He referred me to AR 180-You cant do that here. When I showed him that the headstamp was the same on both, he finally agreed.
I really enjoyed Germany during my first tour 84-86. High exchange rate and I was single. Hung out most every night at Bambi's restaurant and bar. Good memories good beer.

deadday
05-07-2008, 18:27
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/deadday/Motivational%20Pics/aay.jpg


I love this picture...




drew

tc556guy
05-08-2008, 06:12
I also remember one day when a crazed GI came to Drake Kaserne, beat his 1SG and disarmed THREE MPs from my unit. Not one even tried to draw on this nut. The Polizei later shot the guy.
I remember when our Provost Marshal flipped out because no one did anything to stop the guy. He asked one of my guys if he would have drawn on the man. My Private proudly declared: "No Sir, I know better than to draw a loaded weapon." The PM flipped out on my guy and I couldn't hold back. I explained to the Colonel about how every MP is trained to never hold a loaded pistol in his hand...etc, and other career ended ****-chat. .

I can't believe that any MP would actually be THAT stupid about allowing policy to get in the way of doing ones job....

taco101
05-10-2008, 20:23
Oh man...the blocks of wood.... When I was in the 101st MP there was minimal BS and lots of good training...(and Papa Smurf)

But prior to that in Germany I was on a security site. Every morning before guardmount we got a 2x4 with 128 rounds of 5.56. Had to load up 7 20rd mags every day before work and down load them after work.

The packframes on the site held ammo cans of 7.62 sealed in the can....and 40mm sealed in cans......:shakehead:

Way too much policy in the way of common sense.

Dean
05-10-2008, 20:51
I joined the Military Police Corps as a boy 29 years ago.
I had no interest in any MOS other than 95-Bravo.

We carried our .45's with a full magazine and no round in the chamber. At West Point as a Reservist policing football games I carried five round magazines with no round in the chamber. We were outraged at the time, but looking back we were armed well enough.

This is wartime now. It is my hope that in Iraq and Afghanistan everybody has a round chambered and a full magazine in their M9s, and a full mag in their M-4s. No round chambered is okay I guess, if SOP dictates.

Me? I always carry a loaded, chambered Glock. These are bloody dangerous times.
"Of the troops and for the troops."

Meat-Hook
05-11-2008, 00:54
"Yes stateside no round in the chamber per SOP. At the post I was at(stateside) most MP's had 1 in the chamber. It was one of those rules that was not enforced or talked about."
------

This is insane policy.

"No round in the chamber"?

Is this the police in England??

What police officer,..in the United States of America,
carries: "No round in the chamber"?

What!

The Military Policy police are the same policeman as around the
world. And they face very similar dangers.

Yes its true,..the rank and file of America holds in high regard our
memebers of our military. Unfortuatley,..there are criminals within
our military ranks. Thats why we have the Uniform Code of Military
Justice ((UCMJ)).

And thats why we have the Military Police/CID. Crime is omni-present.

Unfortunately we have idiot,...high ranking,..base officers who are not now,
..have not been in the past,...nor will they ever be. A cop.

Yet,...as always,...they get to decide "police" policy.

tc556guy
05-11-2008, 20:05
This is wartime now. It is my hope that in Iraq and Afghanistan everybody has a round chambered and a full magazine in their M9s, and a full mag in their M-4s. No round chambered is okay I guess, if SOP dictates.



Dictated to you based on your location: green, amber or red status.You'd think that in a warzone EVERYONE would be trusted to have a mag in the well and one in the pipe 24/7, but such is not the case........

DefenderC5
05-12-2008, 07:46
Another AF cop here. I've run into this issue many time while working with the army. It is SOP for Air Force to have one in the chamber, on fire, while holstered as mentined before. I run into a lot of problems being an IA attached to an army unit. Working in an embassy, I don't see any reason to be locked/loaded. I carry amber, but I had to get special clearance to do so based on position. Luckly the other AF cops in the AO share similar caveats. Whenever I'm in the red zone, it's one in the chamber... M4/M9 doesn't matter. I usually move the selector lever to safe on my M9 if we're between movements since I have it in a chest holster and it is completely exposed. It saves the headache of repeated explaination. It draws funny looks from the infantry guys... I'm sure I appear to be oblivious to the status of my weapon to them, but I don't care.

Back in the day, while I was a missile cop during a joint exercise. An army Sgt was absolutely stunned when he heard that we drove around in Wyoming/Nebraska in an armored humvee, fully loaded. During ops in the same location, the MK19 was mounted and half loaded with 192 HEDP rounds in 4 cans ready to go. The M203 gunner would wear his 40mm on his chest rig and all rifles were amber. The Army Sgt heard it all when I then told him the four man fire team was sometimes made up of three, E-2 to E-3, with an E-4 as the highest ranking fire team leader. :supergrin:

Dictated to you based on your location: green, amber or red status.You'd think that in a warzone EVERYONE would be trusted to have a mag in the well and one in the pipe 24/7, but such is not the case........

I don't trust half these people to carry one in the chamber. There are clearing barrels everywhere in the Baghdad green zone. It's mandatory to clear while crossing one area to another. Without certain credentials, you'll clear your weapon 4 times just walking to the DFAC. I've heard the sound of more M9's dropped to the pavement than anywhere else. I lost count of how many people I've seen clear their weapon by dry firing into the clearing barrel. :shocked: The offenders came from army, air force and navy, but seemed to be exclusively officers. :whistling:

As far as MP's carrying in which status... deployed or home station. It will vary widely by the SOP established at the given location. Even while deployed, the requirements can change from FOB to FOB. Most, if not all, of the MPs I've seen in the Baghdad area, and some surround FOBs in other provinces, would carry in the amber status.

However, this place is turning into less of a deployment and more of a station. The bureaucracy is getting so thick you could swim in it... for AF and Army.

tc556guy
05-12-2008, 11:21
I don't trust half these people to carry one in the chamber. There are clearing barrels everywhere in the Baghdad green zone. It's mandatory to clear while crossing one area to another. Without certain credentials, you'll clear your weapon 4 times just walking to the DFAC. I've heard the sound of more M9's dropped to the pavement than anywhere else. I lost count of how many people I've seen clear their weapon by dry firing into the clearing barrel. :shocked: The offenders came from army, air force and navy, but seemed to be exclusively officers. :whistling:



From running many an M9 range primarily attended by O types, I know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately, the military has a history of giving pistols to only those it feels absolutely need a handgun, and that list has traditionally been short. After all, the military has been trying to wean itself of pistols since WW2. Along with so many other uniform and equipment changes, OIF and OEF have been unique in that so many folks are now getting M9s. Unfortunately, the Army training program has lagged in properly training modern handgun technique to the pistol carriers. From a LEO and competitive military shooters perspective, the lack of proper pistol handling by many personnel is upsetting to me. It's not difficult; I carry a loaded Glock on my hip at least 40 hours a week on the Job, and a lot of hours off duty. There just seems to be this "mystique" of the handgun that many military members can't seem to work their mind through......

MP1SG
05-15-2008, 09:58
When I was in the 14th MP Bde in Germany, we weren't allowed to have a mag in the gun. The Bde Cdr's rationale was that there wouldn't be an accidental discharge if there wasn't a mag in the gun. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of officers never did the police work side of beign an MP, so they did understand or care about the potential dangers of the job. Also, the politics of their career stand in the way too.

Once the Bde Cdr departed, the new one let us put the mags in.

Spieler
06-01-2008, 03:17
When I was an MP in Italy from '88-'91 we still carried the M1911A1. When we went on duty and drew our weapons from the arms room we were issued 5 rounds of ball ammo and one magazine in which to load it. We were required to keep that magazine in our ammo pouch at all times! Being a "gun guy" growing up I thought it was the stupidest thing in the world, but at least we were backed up by the Italian Carabinieri who carried fully loaded Beretta M92s and M12S subguns!

When I got to a stateside unit, the SOP was the same with the M1911A1, but once we transitioned to the M9 we were issued 10 rounds instead of 5! Still not enough to fill a standard magazine!

bennwj
06-02-2008, 18:39
I may tick off somebody here if there is a current or former MP officer here, but here goes anyway......

Most Army M.P.'s are horrible at law enforcement, but great at convoy escort, general security duties and prisoner detention.

It is true that MP's do not carry with a round in the chamber and that is because we are breeding a group of Commissioned Officers who are not leaders...they are managers who get promoted based on a date on the calendar...not on merit or ability. It is tough to explain to your boss how ineffective your training program is when you have a negligent discharge. The easy solution is to make an SOP that states that you can not carry with a round in the chamber. Now when somebody has a N.D. the policymaker/trainer can't be blamed.

I have two friends who are in federal law enforcement. One is in the DEA in Columbus, SC and the other is a Secret Service Agent in Chicago. Both have taught at their respective academies. They are not impressed with the former Army M.P.'s that they get enrolled in training. They state that they have to spend way too much time teaching them the right way to do things.

Don't get me wrong. I respect ANY Soldier who is serving his country, and will not hold them at fault for poor leadership, but the bottom line is if you give somebody a gun to perform their duty, you as a leader should have the confidence in the Soldier and their training to allow them to use the weapon as intended and have faith in them to do so.

chance3290
06-02-2008, 18:45
I probably agree, from what I've heard.
I started in the mid-70s at FT Bragg, 82nd MP Co. MAN! we learned how to be cop. Robbery, burglary, murder, rape, domestics (a lot) fatal accidents....you name it and I was first on the scene at least once. I truly learned a lot about being a cop. And I also learned how to be a good field MP. But, as the years went on, we did more field and less street work.
But hey, it is still and honorable MOS. GOD bless you all.