Feeding problem with 147 gr. in MK9...

[jmb79]

I've had my Kahr MK9 2003 Elite for several years now and I have never had a single malfunction with it (despite regular use), until today.

Prior to today, my MK9 was fed a steady diet of fmj ammo from federal, CCI, winchester and remington. Also, it performed flawlessly with my chosen carry ammo: Corbon 125gr. +P.

I have decided to switch my carry ammo to Fedral HST in 147 gr. (not the +P version 147 gr.). Thus, I took my MK9 and other 9mm pistols that I carry to the range today to run 100 rounds of HST through each (not cheap by necessary in my opinion). All the pistol fed the HST without problems except the MK9.

Note that I always shoot the MK9 (including in practice) with one in the chamber and full mags, whether using a 6 rnd., 7 rnd, or 8 rnd. mag.

I had several (5 out of 100) failures to chamber with the 147 gr. HST rounds. In most of these failures, the nose of the round feeding off the magazine became stuck against the bottom of the barrel's feed ramp. I also had two stovepipes (failure to clear the slide upon ejection). As noted above, these are the first malfunctions ever with this pistol.

After running through the HST, I shot 50 rounds of Blazer Brass and 50 rounds of Remington UMC (each 115 gr. fmj) without problems.

My guess is that the long bullet profile of the 147 gr. HST is contributing to the feeding issues. The bullet is much longer than the Corbons and even noticeably longer than the fmj. Still, I cannot see how the longer bullet would cause the stovepipes.

Any thoughts, comments, observations or similar issues with 147 gr. 9mm in a Kahr?

Thanks.

[czdj]

My PM9 won't feed the HST reliably either. Not a biggie, it feeds the Speer Gold Dot or Ranger T 147gr loads just fine. I'd give those a shot and see if they work. Once you get a box of either Gold Dots or Rangers, check out the nose vs. the HST. The HST nose is pretty flat which is what I think causes issues.

[passive101]

My MK9 feeds Speer Gold Dots without a problem, but it will only chamber the first round if I use the slide release.

[isecobra]

to change the subject a little, do you really perfer a 147 gr. bullet over the smaller more expandable 124 gr. or 115 gr. bullets, even in a + p , or +p+ the the 147 gr. out of a 3" inch barrel is really slow mainly under the required 900 fps. it takes to expand.

[rreynol]

I carry 147gr HSTs in my MK9. I've had no issues with this combination and I've run a couple hundred of these rounds through it.

FYI, I was hesitant to go with the 147gr until I saw some wetpack testing over at DefensiveCarry.com indicating that the 147gr HST had no problem expanding out of a PM9.

[blindluck]

to change the subject a little, do you really perfer a 147 gr. bullet over the smaller more expandable 124 gr. or 115 gr. bullets, even in a + p , or +p+ the the 147 gr. out of a 3" inch barrel is really slow mainly under the required 900 fps. it takes to expand.

I think your info might be dated, at least in regards to the Winchester Ranger 147gr. Although, every other source, I've communicated with has verified that the 147gr HST are comparable.

I emailed an ammunition manufacturer about what ammo to use in the Glock 26 3.5" barrel. What's your take on the following quote by Winchester Tactical Ammunition's Senior Technical Specialist?

"When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments."

[isecobra]

i was responding to the use of federal 147 gr. hst, they advertise a 1000 fps out of a 4" barrel, the amount of fps drop sharply as you decrease the length of the barrel. the ranger t +p from what i've heard may have a better expansion at lower speeds, but i only write from personal trial and error,
i have found the my mk9 as well pm9 loves the hotter rounds the lower weight bullets, they are more accurate and always expand to fully at speed. i perfer the dpx 115 gr. +p, sub 2" groups at 15 yds 100% wt retention running out of the muzzle around 1150 fps. just my 2 cents worth

[blindluck]

i was responding to the use of federal 147 gr. hst, they advertise a 1000 fps out of a 4" barrel, the amount of fps drop sharply as you decrease the length of the barrel. the ranger t +p from what i've heard may have a better expansion at lower speeds, but i only write from personal trial and error,
i have found the my mk9 as well pm9 loves the hotter rounds the lower weight bullets, they are more accurate and always expand to fully at speed. i perfer the dpx 115 gr. +p, sub 2" groups at 15 yds 100% wt retention running out of the muzzle around 1150 fps. just my 2 cents worth

I don't own a chronograph but have seen the ballistics of PM9s. On the link posted below, the 147gr HST is running 920fps and so I'd disagree that 70fps is a sharp dropoff when compared to 1000fps out of a 4" barrel.
http://usrange.org/smf/index.php?topic=2254.new;topicseen

In addition, the ranger t 147gr that I referred to in my previous post is NOT the same as the +p load you are referring to. Winchester makes a 124gr +p, 127gr +p+, and 147gr ranger t in non-bonded configuration. Here's another quote with the same senior tech specialist regarding the 127gr +p+ in short barreled pistols and I've extrapolated that it applies to the 124gr+p to a lesser extent:

"Some people seem to think that faster is better no matter what and really don’t think much about terminal ballistics. They only think about foot pounds of energy. The +P+ cartridge is not a SAAMI cartridge and has a substantially higher pressure than regular or +P ammunition. It also has more recoil than the 147 gr. product 23% more to be exact. In addition many gun manufacturers will not warranty their guns if used with ammo that is not loaded to SAAMI specs. This ammo is definitely harder on your gun and on you since you have more recoil to deal with. If I was going to use the 127 gr. +P+ round, I would want to use it in a standard barrel length gun."

[isecobra]

the guy in the orginal post is doing what needs to be done, FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE, all pistols are a little different, he has had no problems shooting a lighter faster round, the fte is due to the lower amount of chamber pressure and heavier load, kahr pistols run a very strong spring system, the point i was tring to make is that if the corbon 125gr. +p ran flawlessly why change to a 147 gr. hst, with problems, ballisticly the amount expansion is better on the lighter faster bullet.

on a personal note: i can get on the internet and find a opinion to prove any point i want, but the only way to be sure about most anything is to prove out your theories, you don't have to have a chrono, when i shoot and want to compare rounds i take out my k-bar go down range and dig up the rounds, i have had 147 and 124 gr. hst and rangers and for that matter black talons with nothing but dirt packed into the end of the round, but i've also had the same bullet with expansion, never have i dug up a dpx 115 gr. that wasn't expanded. shooting the 147 gr. black talons out of a full size beretta the rounds that i have retreived have always had expansion. maybe i'm wrong but i know what my pistols shoot good and what they don't. if it ever comes down to needing them to defend me or my family i know my little 115 dpx will do the job. from experience not what some engineer said to help sell product.

[blindluck]

You might find this interesting reading:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=852117
But I had different results than you.

Your results are unfortunate bc I also feel more comfortable with the 147gr bullets. I'd suggest that you try the Winchester Ranger T 147gr and see if they work for you. I have a local dealer but they can be found at a few places online for comparable prices to the HSTs. My personal philosophy for Kahr guns is to shoot a thousand rounds total and at least 500 of the self-defense ammo through a gun before I want to trust it. I can't afford to do that with most of the other great ammo choices like the DPX which I think run a buck a pop. The HSTs and Rangers are less than half that price if you look around but have had just as good if not superior results in every ballistics test I've seen.

[blindluck]

the guy in the orginal post is doing what needs to be done, FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE, all pistols are a little different, he has had no problems shooting a lighter faster round, the fte is due to the lower amount of chamber pressure and heavier load, kahr pistols run a very strong spring system, the point i was tring to make is that if the corbon 125gr. +p ran flawlessly why change to a 147 gr. hst, with problems, ballisticly the amount expansion is better on the lighter faster bullet.

on a personal note: i can get on the internet and find a opinion to prove any point i want, but the only way to be sure about most anything is to prove out your theories, you don't have to have a chrono, when i shoot and want to compare rounds i take out my k-bar go down range and dig up the rounds, i have had 147 and 124 gr. hst and rangers and for that matter black talons with nothing but dirt packed into the end of the round, but i've also had the same bullet with expansion, never have i dug up a dpx 115 gr. that wasn't expanded. shooting the 147 gr. black talons out of a full size beretta the rounds that i have retreived have always had expansion. maybe i'm wrong but i know what my pistols shoot good and what they don't. if it ever comes down to needing them to defend me or my family i know my little 115 dpx will do the job. from experience not what some engineer said to help sell product.


Where you and I disagree on ballistics is with your (bold) statements:
1. "required 900 fps. it takes to expand" which seems completely arbitrary,
2. "amount of fps drop sharply as you decrease the length of the barrel" which chronograph results refute,
3. "ballisticly the amount expansion is better on the lighter faster bullet" which Winchester's tech rep and every gel testing I remember reading disagrees with,
4. your dirt-pack methodology which only tests relative expansion and penetration into... uhm... dirt,

I disagree with the need to "prove out" any theories by shooting ammo into water, dirt, wet newspaper or through trees to do what has already been done in a far superior manner. Modern gel testing is far from perfect but is clearly the most repeatable and reliable way to determine terminal ballistics in a substance comparable to human flesh.

The ONLY point you and I agree on is the shooter testing different ammo for reliability in HIS gun. I've done something similar and had different results but I wouldn't explain his problem with questionable statements like "fte is due to the lower amount of chamber pressure and heavier load."

This discussion is becoming pointless and I apologize to the OP.:embarassed:

[isecobra]

i will agree that this is getting stupid, i wish you all the best. i was discussing this issue at work today and one of the guys said there was a write up in the june issue of combat handguns, i stopped by wal-mart and picked it up today. good reading i suggest that you pick up a copy.the article is titled : best loads for mini -9s
regards

[Mr. S]

i will agree that this is getting stupid, i wish you all the best. i was discussing this issue at work today and one of the guys said there was a write up in the june issue of combat handguns, i stopped by wal-mart and picked it up today. good reading i suggest that you pick up a copy.the article is titled : best loads for mini -9s
regards

I hope you don't believe all the garbage in that article.

BTW I have never had any problems with any 147 gr. loads in my Kahr.
I have used Federal HST,Winchester Ranger T,Federal American eagle and Speer gold dots without a problem.

[isecobra]

http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html

check out this info, this guy done some research!

[pjmaxm]

I use 147gr Federal HST exclusively in my Kahr PM9 for carry and carry practice, and have never had an issue. The whole 147gr out of a short barrel does not work is working off of old information and repeating what others have said. I carry 147gr Federal with confidence.

[passive101]

Don't some ammo manufacturers make short barrel JHP? I thought some companies did and they performed better with quicker burning powder.

I remember people saying in the baby glocks and other smaller guns they worked better. Anyone try these in kahr's?