PM9 verses the J Frame or any revolver

[whardi]

I have been fortunate so far and not had any failures with my new PM9 but I have only run 150 rounds through it. I do know myself and if I ever have one failure with it my confidence in it as a concealed carry choice will be gone.

There is always more of a chance for a failure with a semiautomatic pistol verses a revolver. Since the PM9 is a DAO you cannot pull the trigger again without racking the slide and the most reliable way with the PM9 is to lock the slide back and then hit the slide release. This would take a lot of time and it might be too late.

With my 340PD, Model 60, & 642 all I have to do is pull the trigger again. No worries. I do not have all the concerns with a double action revolver.

Why do so many of use seem to prefer an auto verses the nearly fail-safe revolver.

Some of my reasoning is:
1. Slimmer design easier to conceal.
2. A more powerful cartridge. The 340PD .357 mag has much more recoil but not as much energy.
3. Better rapid fire accuracy

I am playing the devils advocate here…

[mecenas1991]

In a close quarter battle it is a shot placement that is the"king" as the saying goes. The caliber is close second (a queen)- everything else is like angels dancing on a pin head.
Seriously there are only two factors that in my mind weigh heavily on the side of the 2" 38 Spl. revolver with a +P capability and against PM9 -one, and the most important is reliability and the other is a second shot capability.
Everything else is almost equal - and that is : the size and weight, capacity (PM 9 wins here), energy and velocity of a caliber (some cartridges have almost the same results in a gelatin test), comfortable pocket carry.

That is why I bought a S&W MP 340 Centennial model, equipped it with a CTC laser grips and it will be my second pocket gun (the other being a Seecamp 32)

This was a particularly good choice when after having a surgery on my non-shooting hand and a cast/splint combination for the next 8 weeks, I couldn't imagine carrying my MK9 that, in case of mulfunction, I couldn't fire by just pulling the trigger.
As I said many times, MK9 is a very fine firearm, and I do carry it, but under a stressful situation having a S&W revolver loaded with GD +P 135gr hollow points specially designed for a short barreled gun provides a much better comfort.

[road_king]

Many of us shoot a semi-auto much better than the light powerful revolvers. My wife and me both shoot a PM/MK, G26, etc. much better than a feather weight .38 - even with laser grips!

And, a few extra shots is a feel good thing!

Not sure I understand your .357 "not as much energy" statement - not as much energy as what?

[whardi]

Look at the ballistics on for the Gold Dot .357 magnums shot out of the snubs & the Corbons shot out of the Kahr PM9.

The 340PD kicks like a mule with less effect than the Kahr with the much more powerful Corbons. Make better sense now?

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w213/whardi/GoldDot.gif

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w213/whardi/CorBon.gif

[outerlimit]

You're going to get failures with a semi-auto no matter what it is, just a fact. And it won't necessarily be the gun's fault. Practice failure drills.

[whardi]

Practice failure drills? I must say the PM9 is one of the toughest ones to practice with. I think I will go back to my 340PD and J-Frames. I will keep the Kahr as one of my toys to shoot at the range. I have too many toys.

[road_king]

Look at the ballistics on for the Gold Dot .357 magnums shot out of the snubs & the Corbons shot out of the Kahr PM9.

The 340PD kicks like a mule with less effect than the Kahr with the much more powerful Corbons. Make better sense now?

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w213/whardi/GoldDot.gif

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w213/whardi/CorBon.gif

I see where you're coming from and I believe it, but no - it makes no logical sense to me!

[Tough Guy Levi]

Howdy:

Have 14,000+ rounds through my PM 9 and almost 700 rounds through my S&W 642. Enjoy shooting them both but prefer carrying my PM 9 because it's slimmer and easier to conceal. I always carry (CCW - concealed weapons permit) an extra magazine or extra .38s for the 642 but any speed loader is out of the question because of business attire. I have to carry a Bianchi 6 round strip and obviously a mag affords faster reloads than a Bianchi strip!

As far as energy goes, all will change the minute S&W produces a J frame for the new Federal .327 Magnum (http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=4&s2=6&id=171&brand=5&year=2007). IMHO, the .38 Special +P is a dinosaur compared to this new cartridge ballistics/energy.

Tough Guy Levi
Orange, CA

[blindluck]

I've tried 3 different grips on an airweight 38 j-frame and am still lousy with it. The only grip that makes it interesting to shoot is the crimson trace. The only grip that makes it a pleasure to shoot is a full sized model that encloses the backstrap, effectively making the gun a heckuva lot bigger. I have about 500 rounds through it which ain't much but simply don't enjoy shooting it. I enjoy shooting revolvers and am proficient with my L-frame but the J doesn't feel right in my hand, the sights are rudimentary and it's a gun that requires a LOT of shooting to become proficient. It's likely that I'd never need to shoot it at distances farther than across a room but if I needed to make a pressured 25 yard accurate shot then I'd be in trouble. I couldn't get comfortable with it after 500 or so rounds and gave up on it.

The PM9 isn't perfect but I shoot it immeasurably better than the j-frame. The trigger is vastly superior, it has real pistol sights, has much more firepower, has been reliable enough (2 ftf in 960 rounds) for me and I enjoy shooting it. I am more accurate with it than my glock 26 at 25 yards. In fact, IMHO it compares favorable to a glock 26 except for controlled rapid fire and magazine capacity.

I've found it to be the perfect pocket compromise.

[2cooltoolz]

Wrestling with this exact problem for a while. Have a S&W 442 .38 Airweight, MK9, and Seecamp .32 that I consider to be my "pocketable" pistols.
The MK9 is not larger than the S&W but is square and blocky, and looks like a pistol in your pocket, and absolutely pulls your pants down on that side. The S&W has organic curves that make it disappear in a pocket, but has 5 rd cap. It's my primary "hiking" gun because I can alternate JHP's and shotshells. It's also large enough and heavy enough to always be a bit of a distraction.
I've tried American Derringer and High Standard double action derringers. 2 shots and a difficult reload. I carried an AMT 45 backup for a while...HEAVY!!!
So my EDC is a Seecamp 32 in a Nemesis pocket holster (Occasionally IWB).
I don't have to dress for carry and it always goes BANG! But it's a .32.
I've waited for the PM9 to become reliable enough to replace it. I think it has, but along came the P380. Smaller, lighter, all the same good stuff.
So I guess my answer is I'll wait on the P380, then decide.

Now if you want to talk IWB..........

[user]

This reminds me of the old Certs' commercials. "Stop! You're Both Right!"

As I see it, the j frame revolver and the PM9 are different tools for different jobs. I don't use a carpenters' hammer to bust scale off a welding job, I use a welder's hammer for that, which I couldn't use to hammer nails with.

So I carry one of each, though I prefer the S&W steel J frames and the steel K9 for routine carrying (the PM9, being more concealable, is my "party gun").

And I'm thinking, there's only one semiautomatic I know of that has a double-strike capability, and that's the SIGSauer DAK models. So I've got one of those, too, as an alternative when I don't have the other two with me.

[whardi]

Yeah it is a tough call for some. I have a P239 that I really like and trust but it is too dang heavy. If the PM9 continues to perform like it has my confidence will increase. The things I read sometimes influence me too much. You have to treat firearms like people to an extent. How have they treated you? I can carry the 340PD in one pocket and the PM9 in another and together the two of them only weighs what the P239 does. I doubt I do that. I will determine what I carry by my mood and situation. Everyone has some valid points.

[Jdog]

I currently have a problem-free PM9 but have been seriously thinking of picking up a 340PD thinking .357mag would be much more powerful (ultra-light woods carry)
...so thanks for the info.

[whardi]

I currently have a problem-free PM9 but have been seriously thinking of picking up a 340PD thinking .357mag would be much more powerful (ultra-light woods carry)
...so thanks for the info.

The deal is…. according to the ballistics for a 135 gr Gold Dot JHP short barrel personal protection coming out of a snub .357 mag revolver is less powerful. Muzzle = 990 FPS & muzzle energy ft pounds = 294. You lose a lot with the 1-7/8 in long barrel. The recoil is still there plus some..

The CorBon 115 JHP 9mm +P shout out of a PM9 = 1340 muzzle FPS and 458 muzzle energy ft pounds.

It’s hard to believe but that is what they claim.

If I went by feel I would say the .357 mag coming out of my 340PD is 10 times more powerful that the 9mm CorBon coming out of the PM9 Kahr.

The recoil for the 340PD is the most I have ever encountered with a handgun. I never considered myself that recoil sensitive but 15 rounds is all I want to shoot. I even got brave enough (or stupid enough) to shoot some 158 gr JHP’s. Ouch! Never again. It is kind of a macho thing. I get a rush. In all honestly a person should just stick with the 38 special +P’s.

I tell you… you get a lot of looks at he range when you shoot the mags out of it. They are more like rocket propelled grenades coming out of it.

The PM9 is a *****cat when compared to the 340PD which is fine by me. It is totally amazing that you can get that kind of ballistics out of a 3 in barreled 9mm. The CorBon ammo is delivering 78% the power of a 125 gr JHP GD .357 mag coming out of a 4 in barreled revolver. Wow!

[mini14jac]

I've had a PM9, and currently have a CW9, but my everyday carry gun is a 340PD.

The lighter weight makes it easier to carry in a pocket for me.
And, it just feels less bulky than the PM9 did.
Go figure. :dunno:

After trying different guns in my pocket for 10 years or more, I've decided that weight is paramount. Of course the gun has to be reliable, but if I spend my day tugging on my pants to keep them from falling down, I won't carry the gun for long.

Over the years, I've tried the following guns:
Kel Tec P32 and P3AT, NAA revolvers (22lr and .22WMR) and Guardian.32, Taurus Ultralight .38, Seecamp .32, Kahr PM9, S&W 642 and 340PD, and maybe a few others.
(This list doesn't even count the guns I've tried for OWB/IWB carry :upeyes: )

I've never been 100% comfortable with a .32 for defense, but the Kel Tecs were a breeze to carry.
I've owned several, but they just never felt like a "real" gun.
The NAA Guardian, though tiny, weighs 16 ounces! :wow:

I don't think I've ever been as thoroughly impressed with a CCW gun as I have the 340PD.
It's only 5 shots, and I've only shot .38s in it, but it's very light, and very accurate at self-defense distances.
Haven't even tried .357s in it yet, but I feel that .38 +P jhps should do the job.

So many people that I know have their CCW permit, but don't carry a gun.
It's important to have something that you are comfortable enough with, that you'll carry it all the time.

Otherwise, the time may come when you need your gun and don't have it. :crying:

[mecenas1991]

And I'm thinking, there's only one semiautomatic I know of that has a double-strike capability, and that's the SIGSauer DAK models. So I've got one of those, too, as an alternative when I don't have the other two with me.

If a second strike capability is an issue of importance then a Walther (also S&W) P99 Compact is the answer. It is a great gun, has a triple action trigger (including traditional double action) but it is a size of a small Glock and weighs 25 oz empty - not a pocket gun.

If Kahr would make their MK size guns (either 9mm or 40 S&W) with a frame made of a light weight metal such as scandium or aluminum/titanium alloy - many of us would jump on it. Reducing the weight to 14 oz and making it reliable as most of all metal firearms can be made out of the box would be a key to success.
The cost would most likely be prohibitively high.

[nymike1]

Failures are a part of life - There is no 100% reliable weapon. There are variables that exist, and you have to trust ammo you didn't make. You cannot fault the weapon for normal issues. Run 1000 rounds through it and then decide what you think. If you get one or 2 issues, you have to see if it was the round, was the gun clean, did you limp wrist, etc. IF you get 20,30,40 ftf's or hang ups then you have to worry. But 1 issue on one round does not make the gun unreliable. So keep it clean, give a good break in, and then make a decision if you trust it or not.

[whardi]

I've had a PM9, and currently have a CW9, but my everyday carry gun is a 340PD.

The lighter weight makes it easier to carry in a pocket for me.
And, it just feels less bulky than the PM9 did.
Go figure. :dunno:

After trying different guns in my pocket for 10 years or more, I've decided that weight is paramount. Of course the gun has to be reliable, but if I spend my day tugging on my pants to keep them from falling down, I won't carry the gun for long.

Over the years, I've tried the following guns:
Kel Tec P32 and P3AT, NAA revolvers (22lr and .22WMR) and Guardian.32, Taurus Ultralight .38, Seecamp .32, Kahr PM9, S&W 642 and 340PD, and maybe a few others.
(This list doesn't even count the guns I've tried for OWB/IWB carry :upeyes: )

I've never been 100% comfortable with a .32 for defense, but the Kel Tecs were a breeze to carry.
I've owned several, but they just never felt like a "real" gun.
The NAA Guardian, though tiny, weighs 16 ounces! :wow:

I don't think I've ever been as thoroughly impressed with a CCW gun as I have the 340PD.
It's only 5 shots, and I've only shot .38s in it, but it's very light, and very accurate at self-defense distances.
Haven't even tried .357s in it yet, but I feel that .38 +P jhps should do the job.

So many people that I know have their CCW permit, but don't carry a gun.
It's important to have something that you are comfortable enough with, that you'll carry it all the time.

Otherwise, the time may come when you need your gun and don't have it. :crying:

You bring up a valid point. I pushed and pushed for Texas to pass the concealed handgun bill and I was one of the 1st to sign up but I do not consistently carry one. We have had numerous incidents in the state that had someone been carrying it might have made a difference.

So far I really like the Kahr but the 340PD is more comfortable to pack for me. Being a double action if I were to hit a dud I just keep pulling the trigger. Only time will tell with the Kahr. I will judge after a minimum of 500 rounds. It may be hard for some to believe but I have shot thousands of rounds through my P226 9mm, P229 .40/.357 & P239 .40/.357 and never had any kind of failures. I must hold the Kahr to the same standard.

[mini14jac]

The PM9 is a good gun, and if they have truly solved the peening problem, I think you'll be very pleased with it.
If mine hadn't started peening (around 2200 rounds), I'd probably still have it. :crying:

I'm currently on a waiting list for a Ruger LCP, for those few times when I can't carry the J frame in my pocket.
Some pants actually have pockets that are so shallow, you can see the grip sticking out. :shocked:

[whardi]

The PM9 is a good gun, and if they have truly solved the peening problem, I think you'll be very pleased with it.
If mine hadn't started peening (around 2200 rounds), I'd probably still have it. :crying:

I'm currently on a waiting list for a Ruger LCP, for those few times when I can't carry the J frame in my pocket.
Some pants actually have pockets that are so shallow, you can see the grip sticking out. :shocked:

Hey I have an LCP. It is truley an impressive little pistol. It has fired everthing I have ran through it. It is accurate too.

[Berto]

The deal is…. according to the ballistics for a 135 gr Gold Dot JHP short barrel personal protection coming out of a snub .357 mag revolver is less powerful. Muzzle = 990 FPS & muzzle energy ft pounds = 294. You lose a lot with the 1-7/8 in long barrel. The recoil is still there plus some..

The CorBon 115 JHP 9mm +P shout out of a PM9 = 1340 muzzle FPS and 458 muzzle energy ft pounds.

It’s hard to believe but that is what they claim.

If I went by feel I would say the .357 mag coming out of my 340PD is 10 times more powerful that the 9mm CorBon coming out of the PM9 Kahr.

The recoil for the 340PD is the most I have ever encountered with a handgun. I never considered myself that recoil sensitive but 15 rounds is all I want to shoot. I even got brave enough (or stupid enough) to shoot some 158 gr JHP’s. Ouch! Never again. It is kind of a macho thing. I get a rush. In all honestly a person should just stick with the 38 special +P’s.

I tell you… you get a lot of looks at he range when you shoot the mags out of it. They are more like rocket propelled grenades coming out of it.

The PM9 is a *****cat when compared to the 340PD which is fine by me. It is totally amazing that you can get that kind of ballistics out of a 3 in barreled 9mm. The CorBon ammo is delivering 78% the power of a 125 gr JHP GD .357 mag coming out of a 4 in barreled revolver. Wow!


You're also comparing one of the strongest 9mm loads against one of the weakest .357mag loads ,too. You can get 158gr .357mag loads that get those velocities from a snubby, the question is whether you want to shoot them. You can also step down to .38sp +P that will still drive 158gr faster than any 9mm load can.
The 340 is also a bit lighter than the Pm9, thus more recoil with a more powerful round.
In little guns, I want heavy bullets for penetration and .38sp can do anything in 158gr that 9mm can with 147gr.
A working PM9 is as good as it gets for a small auto in 9mm, but I'd rather have the revolver.
Both require lots of practice.

[Chuck54]

I carry a PM9-accurate-reliable-carries easily

Carry what makes YOU comfortable



What happens to a revolver if you get a hang-fire and have already pulled the trigger again when the hang-fire goes off?

[blindluck]

Both require lots of practice.

Berto nailed it.

[whardi]

You're also comparing one of the strongest 9mm loads against one of the weakest .357mag loads ,too. You can get 158gr .357mag loads that get those velocities from a snubby, the question is whether you want to shoot them. You can also step down to .38sp +P that will still drive 158gr faster than any 9mm load can.
The 340 is also a bit lighter than the Pm9, thus more recoil with a more powerful round.
In little guns, I want heavy bullets for penetration and .38sp can do anything in 158gr that 9mm can with 147gr.
A working PM9 is as good as it gets for a small auto in 9mm, but I'd rather have the revolver.
Both require lots of practice.

We could go on and on about this. I can assure you from shooting the .357 GD loads the felt recoil is nearly the same as a full factory 125 gr load. The Gold Dots are not that much tamer in the 12 oz 340PD. Now the 158 gr is rougher. I know that for a fact from shooting many hundreds of different rounds through the 340PD. Much velocity and power is lost because of the 1-7/8 IN barrel. I am a little intrigued about your comments about getting these same kinds of numbers from a 157 gr .357 mag load from a snubby. If it were possible I doubt it would be safe for the revolver or the shooter or anyone close by. I have never seen anything in the many articles I have read. I would like to see an article where this has been documented. The .38sp +P that will still drive 158gr faster than any 9mm load can. ?? How can that be possible out of a snub nose revolver?

[Berto]

Go here:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm

You'll see chrono results on 1 and 7/8" barreled J frame smiths regarding the
.38sp loads and a J frame 3" ( same bbl length as PM9) with 158gr magnums pushing 1400fps.
Even knocking 100fps off going down to a 2" puts you at 1300fps.

They don't fudge their numbers either.
Here's independent test of the BB .38sp load
http://brassfetcher.com/38special2inchbarrel.html

The 158gr is rarely seen in 9mm, but there are a few loads. (Samson and Zero, IIRC) Neither breaks 900fps in a service length pistol.
The hottest 147gr 9mm +P+ might get just under 1100fps in a short pistol like the PM9, but a snubby can get about the same with the BB 158gr load.

9 millie is at it's most efficient with middle weight 124gr, .38sp is more efficient with heavier 158gr (bigger case helps)



That BB 158gr would be ideal in your 340. ;)

[whardi]

Go here:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm

You'll see chrono results on 1 and 7/8" barreled J frame smiths regarding the
.38sp loads and a J frame 3" ( same bbl length as PM9) with 158gr magnums pushing 1400fps.
Even knocking 100fps off going down to a 2" puts you at 1300fps.

They don't fudge their numbers either.
Here's independent test of the BB .38sp load
http://brassfetcher.com/38special2inchbarrel.html

The 158gr is rarely seen in 9mm, but there are a few loads. (Samson and Zero, IIRC) Neither breaks 900fps in a service length pistol.
The hottest 147gr 9mm +P+ might get just under 1100fps in a short pistol like the PM9, but a snubby can get about the same with the BB 158gr load.

9 millie is at it's most efficient with middle weight 124gr, .38sp is more efficient with heavier 158gr (bigger case helps)



That BB 158gr would be ideal in your 340. ;)

Hey Berto,
I appreciate the info and website address. They have some interesting data. I need to order some of the BB 158 grain’ers as recommended. Thanks

[Knuckler]

I have carried a titanium or scandium J frame on my ankle for 6 years now...
Every day. I have to qualify at 25 yards with it, and the lowest I have
scored with it is a 99.2%. I used to be a HUGE proponent of the J frame....
Until my wife bought me a PM9 as an Xmas gift.

I never carry a pistol until it has at least 1,000 trouble free rounds through it.
(I am a victim of the kimber "tactical extractor" expirement..). I put 1,200
rounds through my PM9 in 30 days. Didn't clean it once, and only lubed it once.
NOT ONE SINGLE FAILURE OF ANY KIND. Very impressive. MUCH more pleasant to
shoot than my J frames. Actually, the PM9 is alot of fun. Not much recoil, incredibly
accurate, and easy to conceal.

I already sold one of my J frames, and am debating on keeping the other.
(I have a bunch of really nice leather for it....) I think that the little Kahr
is a phenomenal little carry gun.

[user]

...
I already sold one of my J frames, and am debating on keeping the other.
(I have a bunch of really nice leather for it....) I think that the little Kahr
is a phenomenal little carry gun.

Agree completely, except for the part about selling the other J frame. You ought to keep it. Revolvers and semiauto's being different and good for different things and different reasons. One's a good backup for the other. A revolver with nightsights and lasergrips is a good nightstand weapon. Etc. Unless you need the cash and have to have only one, keep both.

[mmc45414]

Look at the ballistics on for the Gold Dot .357 magnums shot out of the snubs & the Corbons shot out of the Kahr PM9.

The 340PD kicks like a mule with less effect than the Kahr with the much more powerful Corbons. Make better sense now?
The trouble with this comparison is that I am pretty sure that short barrel Gold Dot is loaded below max, while the Cor-Bon is maxed out +P. A friend has a new M&P 340 I shot the other day and with reloads that were hot but a full grain under max it was still clocking 1100, and that is with 125g, not 115g.

Not sure the PM9 might not still be a better solution, but saying the 2” 357 is a 950fps proposition is selling it short.